Programming is basically a meme industry
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
>expected to keep up with all latest technologies or else you're FUCKED
>extreme job competition, all you need is a computer and internet so competition is international
>even highschool kids are taught programming now
>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless
So many people are resorting to programming as a career after they realize their current path is no longer viable, they are making a terrible error. The odds are stacked against them, it's like trying to become a professional athlete when you're 30 years old and overweight. Unless you've been programming since your teenage years and are mildly autistic at a bare minimum DO NOT try to become a programmer. When people talk about a shortage of programmers they're talking about genius savants, not some random Joe.
>>54454180
Despite being over-saturated with 'talent' you'd be hard press to find a single competent person in any pile of resumes.
Someone post that picture of the homebrew guy complaining that he didn't know how to do a reverse binary tree. If you've been programming longer than 3-5 years and you can't do simple algorithms ..... I don't know what to tell you, m8.
>>54454180
Job interview didn't go well, huh?
>work as editor (journalism)
>have math degree
>want to get into tech and have been teaching myself programming to get into machine learning stuff
So what the fuck am I supposed to do?
>>54454247
I'm guessing this is the case. OP, did you also accuse your interviewer of "projecting" when he objectively determined that your programming skills are non-existent?
>>54454274
Do research and don't be a code monkey
Surprising that a math 300k starting all girls you want doesn't know programming, you should had learned that along your math degree
>>54454180
Most STEM fields will become like this soon.
even highschool kids are taught programming now<
Took that in HS, hardly learned anything more than I could have gotten through YouTube; calm down op.
>>54454318
well I fucking didn't
What research should I do
>>54454328
Something you like
just b urself :)
>>54454328
>pickup a book on the subject
>read
>practice until your fingers bleed
There's no cutting corners, you gotta have those 10,000 hours to become a master in any field.
>>54454180
>>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
Git gud, scrub.
>>54454366
I mean what would I research, as opposed to programming (to avoid being a code monkey)
>>54454381
>CS
>research
wew
>>54454180
That is why you pick a field with little competition or possess skills that are niche and make you stand out.
The situation you describe exists in every industry, take accounting and finance, people flocked to it in my country thinking it was the money making field, now it is so saturated, the value of the certification is depreciated.
I cannot emphasize the importance of networking and interpersonal skills.
It is not what you know anymore, it is who you know. People can open doors for you if they know you well enough.
I'm not familiar with the industry, but isn't it possible to outsource 100% to a cheaper country for work? I'm considering majoring in computer science, but I'm afraid I won't get a job because of that.
>>54454425
>That is why you pick a field with little competition or possess skills that are niche and make you stand out.
Or do something you love. If you like what you're doing, then getting good at it shouldn't feel like such an endeavour that you have to frog post on an anonymous message board.
>>54454444
>I won't get a job
This is one of the things our professor was mad about. Why wait for a job opening when you can start your own business. Many software graduates here started their consultancy firms and some even partnered with business students to launch their own software house.
>>54454507
I agree but job security and fear of failure are strong forces that come from within. I wanted to go into CS because I loved tinkering computers since I was 7. Due to circumstances I ended up going into finance to ensure I get a job when I graduate, which I did.
>>54454507
>do something you love meme
The worst thing you can do is, 'do something you love' for a living, because you won't love it no more.
>>54454274
I fucking swear. Machine Learning is the dumbest possible shit for people to flock to. People really think that because they can use a node ML library that they're qualified data scientists.
Machine Leaning IS NOT PROGRAMMING. It's fucking math and statistics
>>54454561
I've ruined every hobby I've ever loved by turning it into a career. Now I don't love anything.
>>54454576
Why don't you pick up crossdessing as a hobby?
>>54454594
Even if I did I'd end up becoming a drag queen, and finding a way to make money from it, and end up hating my new drag queen life.
>>54454544
>start a business
There's an opportunity cost when you start a business - primarly if your business doesn't pan out, which most don't, you forego months or when you could have been earning a whole lot more money, and to top it off the skills and experience you could have picked up in that time. When you re-enter the working world you might be in worse situation than if you've never bothered to start a business.
This is namely the biggest reason why most people don't start their own business - if it were a silver bullet more people would be doing it. If you start a business its better to do it while young, you'll still have time to recover financially.
>>photograph on CV
not even once man
>>54454563
I have a degree in math faglord
>not releasing your own products
You only have to have one successful product.
>>54454274
If you already know a good amount of linear algebra and stats, just learn R. It's barely programming
>>54454563
>scientists
>>54454180
>When people talk about a shortage of programmers they're talking about genius savants, not some random Joe.
You need good people skills too. Even if you're genius programmer, companies won't hire you if you can't communicate well.
>>54454231
>Someone post that picture of the homebrew guy complaining that he didn't know how to do a reverse binary tree. If you've been programming longer than 3-5 years and you can't do simple algorithms ..... I don't know what to tell you, m8.
>tfw ten years of programming for a living and never had to do that
Reading up on and messing around with that kind of stuff is just common sense if you're about to interview somewhere, every cunt wants to ask that kind of shit now to weed out the script kiddies
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
Fuck these people who enjoy their jobs I want to come slave away doing something I hate until I kill myself at 45.
>>54454444
>isn't it possible to outsource 100% to a cheaper country for work?
Sure, but if you pay peanuts you get monkeys. The only way to make it work is to have your own expert watching the cunts and making sure they're actually doing good work and not the usual garbage that third-worlders turn out
>>54454544
>job security
>this century
no such thing anymore, better to take the shekels whenever you can and save as much as possible so you've always got a big green security blanket to fall back on
>>54455362
>not killing yourself at 38
Talk about plebs
>>54454231
>If you've been programming longer than 3-5 years and you can't do simple algorithms ..... I don't know what to tell you, m8
Today a lot of people actually "program" by developing trivial wordpress sites and web stuff that requires little to no understanding of computation. It's a good job and good money but you can't easily turn a front-end dev into an embedded dev overnight.
>>54454180
>>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless
How is that a meme industry? You need a degree to get an engineering job! Shocking!
Software is easy as shit if you're any good.
>>54454658
It's common in Europe, highly looked down upon in the US and the Americas.
>>54455654
>engineering
>>54455633
The bad thing about easy jobs is that you can be easily replaced. See all the HTML jockeys who found themselves out of work after the dotcom bubble burst.
Get an actual skill and you won't be easy to replace - see all the asshole sysadmins who are hard to fire despite their atrocious interpsersonal skills and bad customer service, or the old mainframe people who still have jobs because its been almost impossible to replace legacy systems running niche infrastructure systems.
Old adage, easy come, easy go.
What I read on OP's post:
> graduated with honors
> couldn't find job for three months
> got to an interview and I didn't get the job
> interviewer was an indian guy with an annoying voice
> he said I that I can't even do a fizzbuzz correctly and that the guy before me did excellent and was a highschool dropout
> he said knowing Java doesn't mean I know how to program
> I tell him I have a certification from SoloLearn
> he laughs, gives me a hand shake and says he'll call me
>>54455654
>you need a degree
Some of the bigger corps require degrees, but most just require experience, except maybe start-ups.
>Software is easy as shit if you're any good.
No shit, anything is easy if you're any good.
>>54455724
That's the reason I'm trying to complete my engineering degree and get as deep into "real" engineering as I can. I know there could be a burst right now for all the fancy web-dev companies but there will always be a need for C/C++ Java tier devs.
>>54454180
>Unless you've been programming since your teenage years and are mildly autistic at a bare minimum
me irl, probably why I was able to get a career in programming without a degree
>>54454507
>If you like what you're doing, then getting good at it shouldn't feel like such an endeavour that you have to frog post on an anonymous message board.
where can I get a job frogposting
I like frogposting and am good at it
>>54455761
>Some of the bigger corps require degrees, but most just require experience, except maybe start-ups.
Sure, but degrees obviously help you get experience (and internships are the incredibly obvious way to start). But it's definitely an advantage for most people to have a degree. I don't really see that as being a bad thing. A lot of self taught guys don't understand algorithmic complexity or general scalability issues. If you do understand these things, you should have no trouble getting through a programming interview.
>>54455780
You'll probably make more money if you just get a back office job at a bank and write sketchy vba subroutines that blow everyone's minds.
>>54455826
The point being you really don't need a degree, not to take away or discourage people who do have degrees. With that said having a degree doesn't guarantee competency. I knew a guy who had 150K in school loans, for fairly big private university, and he didn't strike me as being any smarter/more skilled than any of the programmers I've known.
The thing about self-taught, self-lead learning, is those people generally have a higher affinity for the subject/field than those who just go through the motions of going to school, getting a diploma, getting intershipn, and eventually everything falls into place and you now have a job.
These threads always confuse me. I'm getting and engineering degree from a reputable university, have 10 months of 40 hour a week full time co-op experience of embedded software development, and 3 years of an oncampus sponsored .NET MVC webapp part time job.
It's really not fucking hard to get internships/experience when you're a student. And it's not that hard to get a job when you have internships/experience. You just need to be able to clearly communicate during interviews and have some technical skills. For entry level, companies hire based off a bit of skill, but mainly off "do I like this guy? If we spend our $$ to train him, could he do the company good and be a productive person to work with?"
/g/ is full of fucking smarter people than me, yet you all complain about not having any fucking jobs and "hurr durr everyone gets jobs before me, H1B's fuck me over, blah blah blah blame other people" Either you don't understand how the software development job market works, or you're all fucking 100% social retards (probably the ladder).
>>54455908
>ladder
Stopped reading there
>>54455930
Well that's the end of my post so I'm glad you read the whole thing.
>>54455908
Autism is the name of the thing you have to understand. In truthfulness, most of /g/ and also 4chan is filled with antisocial people and anger is their shield. If you manage to succeed in whatever you are doing then fine.
>>54455908
Being smart doesn't always mean you have great life skills.
Also, 98% of these threads are inflamatory for the sake of starting discusion.
>>54455950
Yeah it's true. I mean I'm no Chad, I don't get laid that often and I can be decently social awkward compared to other college students I know.
But fucking professionalism in interviews and good communication skills can be learned be reading a fucking book and practicing a lot. At networking events or career fairs, go to a company you don't want to work for and practice your networking. You'll spaghetti, take notes on what you did wrong, and then get better and better until you're good.
People with autism can learn to pick up on social queues. it's just harder for them since it's not intuitive. Professional social queues are 500% less complicated since they're literally, LITERALLY described with pretty static rules.
>>54455970
Yeah I guess I take things on 4chan at face value too much. I suppose that's a form of autism or social unawareness or whatever. But yeah, the insanely smart asian guys in my class can't communicate and so they don't make much progress in group settings (translated to real world: dont work well together on american software development teams).
They need to get rid of core of common studies bullshit and force all engineers to take some "technical communication" class instead of waste of time english 101 -> 102. Make you describe your program logic flow out loud for an assignment and other shit.
>>54455989
>I mean I'm no Chad
We can tell. You sound like a loser on 4chan of all places
>>54455989
Yeah, I go to hacking events and that kind of thing to socialize. It's fun enough.
>>54455908
>It's not that fucking hard
now imagine being so autistic that the words ".NET MVC webapp" send you into an incoherent rage that ends in declaring that the web should have been based on lisp
>>54455633
>but you can't easily turn a front-end dev into an embedded dev overnight.
desu you can't turn "front-end devs" into anything
look at the shitshow that is node.js - it's the result of front-enders being let loose elsewhere
>they all use a five-line library to left-pad a string instead of writing it themselves
>library author cracks the shits and removes it and half the internet breaks
hilarious but depressing to see how far the infestation reaches
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE IM NOT CAULDRON 2.0 REEEEE
>>54456055
see >>54455908 for all my achievements before even reaching 21 years old fag. Very few 4chaners are Chads in real life but being a socially competent engineer is already a step above the average engineer.
>>54456074
For sure. I like those hackathons and other engineering day events. Big companies sponsor, you get a taste of their corporate life, maybe win an XBox, network and do some fun innovative problem.
>>54456055
Well I for one am very interested to hear more about his social cue identification exercises and training regimen.
>>54456083
I audibly kek'd. That's some stallman.org level of autism.
>>54455989
>Professional social queues are 500% less complicated since they're literally, LITERALLY described with pretty static rules.
My problem is sometimes I forget the order things go in. Like my last interview, I squeezed before grabbing the interviewer's hand when reaching for the handshake. This resulted in the interviewer grabbing the outside of my closed hand, while I had already begun guiding our hands in an up and down motion. The frenzy of this miscommunication also caused me to wet my pants.
>>54456149
>I'd rather be a NEET than contribute to this fucking harmful bloat
>brb setting up a blog based on werc and then killing myself because i'm philosophically opposed to the only option my autistic self has
>be me
>study to be teacher
>super easy college course
>get certified quick and easy
>get lots of offers from all around the country
>such high demand that I can negotiate pay
>get plenty of vacation days
>mfw faggots would rather go into some shit tech field
>>54456189
>Have to be berated by normie children and dindus all day
>Libertarians and trump think you should be paid less until test scores actually rise, and that things that make your job easier like computers are a waste of taxpayer dollars
>You will eventually go to jail after a teenage girl says you stare-raped her
>>54456172
Even though I'm socially awkward, I've never messed up a handshake like that.
>>54456189
Teaching is way more competitive of a field in any district that pays decently well. Places with high demand have high demand because you can make more money waiting tables in those areas.
>>54454180
Tldr: I'm incompetent at programming so I'm trying to discourage others and bring them down to my level of bitterness, cynicism and self-hatred.
Nice try, OP, but I started at 22 and it's been almost a year, I'm already getting paid to put together software for a recruitment company.
Try harder next time, buddy.
>>54456172
just... wew
>>54456131
In the off chance you're not a troll and actually want professional networking advice (it's something imo most engineering students lack), I'll bite.
Put yourself in any employer's shoes for entry level jobs. Most of these jobs are filled by students who really don't have enough real world experience to have any actual skills that apply directly to the job (i.e. working on a webapp doesn't translate directly into doing embedded BIOS work or whatever).
For entry level jobs, they just want a bright, communicable employee who is eager to learn and is dependable. Any company that hires for an entry level position is going to literally pay you salary for you to train. This is a 100% drain on the companies finances during training, so they want a good return on that investment.
During interviews or networking, talk about your programming projects and past experience a bit, but talk more about the thought process and your steps in completing that project. Talk about what obstacles you overcame, how you researched the problem, etc.
As for communication, wear nice clothes and practice talking about technical things out loud. Good posture, positive body language, practice making eye contact and picking up on social cues if you can't intuitively do it. Practice speaking slowly and clearly, anunciation, staying on topic with the large overarching themes of your problem you're describing instead of going into detail over the tiniest technical issue. Practice physically writing code on a whiteboard. It's all practice.
Go to career fairs or networking events and talk to companies you don't give a shit about so when you spaghetti it doesn't matter. You get better with practice.
If you're going to take one thing away, just show your potential employer you're eager to learn and can communicate well.
>>54456204
And do you think I would have peed in my pants if it had ever happened to me before? Come on.
>>54456223
You can be very competent at programming but be a complete idiot at the OO/API-gluing shit that will actually get you an entry level job, just because you refused to learn it out of spite
>Your first day at work
>HERE IS THE IDE WE USE
>HERE IS YOUR DELL WORKSTATION WITH WINDOWS 7
>HERE IS JAVA
>HERE IS A LIST OF OUR TECHNOLOGIES
>HERE IS A DESIGN DOCUMENT AND UML CHART FOR YOUR TASK.
>AVOID WRITING FROM SCRATCH. AVOID PULLING IN NEW LIBRARIES. REUSE. COMPANY. CODE. WHEN. POSSIBLE.
>"can i use lisp"
>NO
>>54456172
In a situation like that, the best thing to do is the audible laugh it off and be like "Let's try that again." 90% of the difference between a socially competent semi-weirdo and a full out autist is just laughing at yourself and being able to get past the awkward parts to communicate clearly. Most all engineers are nerds and autists at heart, managers know this. It's all about "can I see myself training and working with this guy".
>>54456203
My students are all white and they are great kids. I work in rural New England, not South-Central Los Angeles.
My students get great scores.
Most of the kids at school like me and prefer me over the other teachers.
>>54456222
What is your definition of "pays well." I got an offer of $80k/yr in Los Angeles but that is shit pay for that place. I get paid $50k/yr here and I live well.
>>54454180
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
>expected to keep up with all latest technologies or else you're FUCKED
So basically, you need to stop complaining and git gud. Or are you too stupid to do that?
>>54456256
Yeah but I'm writing my own software using my own methods.
So I don't understand why you replied to me with that.
its sucks for sure.
im scared of the turbo fucking nerds that knew all this shit before getting into school
im also scared for this generation because it seems like no one is working on their homework
people just google the same question because its the same question that has been asked for 10 years
yeah sure if you fuck up your schedule its nice to have something to back up on but if you just google shit then you dont learn anything
lads
computer science, computer engineering, or applied math?
>>54456261
Not the guy you responded to, but the average american is also retarded when it comes to basic finance. No one takes into account salary / cost of living when getting new jobs. NO ONE. Faggots be so happy to be getting $18/hr for a Cali internship when I'm literally saving so much more not paying $2000/month in rent.
People also suck at saving. But this is all offtopic tbhfam
>>54456292
Fine Arts
>>54456292
engineering. Gives you the most options since you get some hardware experience too. It's also the hardest so that degree carries the most weight.
But to be honest, it's 45% more about internships and experience, and 45% more about communication skills.
>>54456238
>you have to literally become donald draper to become an entry level code monkey in 2016
Anyone who has this much confidence in speaking, digiligence in training areas where they lack, would not be in the field of programming. They'd be in sales making fat commisions
>>54456261
>What is your definition of "pays well." I got an offer of $80k/yr in Los Angeles but that is shit pay for that place. I get paid $50k/yr here and I live well.
Senior faculty in the wealthier districts of long make 150k-200k/year. I lived in boca raton and made 50k a year waiting tables, while the average teacher's salary was below 40k.
There is high demand in California right now, but it doesn't pay nearly enough when you take cost of living into account.
>>54456353
You don't start out in technical sales as an entry level person. You need experience in order to do that.
That's my whole fucking point. Everyone in these type of threads complain about not getting entry level jobs, but you literally have NO excuse. It takes more work being a 100% autist to not get an entry level job than getting one. All the social skills can be acquired.
>>54456238
I was being sarcastic, I make spreadsheets and write SQL for a bank and it pays better than most entry-level programming jobs here.
/g/
>>54456375
*long island
>>54456285
You are the 1%
Also enjoy your dead end job unless you're a complete badass
>>54456402
Oh alright then. Well hopefully some autists in this thread take some of my advice to become socially competent. It can be acquired if you're a literal autist.
Good for you senpai.
>>54456433
It's a temporary job.
I'll do it, add it to my CV then find another.
I am a badass.
>>54456299
>$2000/month in rent
If you're willing to lower your standards, there are places below $1000/month.
>>54456473
Have fun with your pistol whippings and bed bugs in oakland
>>54456189
Fuck man. I really want to be a teacher.
Any reasons why I shouldn't?
>>54456515
1. teenagers
2. teenagers' parents
3. black teenagers
>>54456515
bad pay
parents
transgender politics
>>54455908
you don't
did an internship but still didn't get a job afterwards since I got surprised by a technical question during the interview
>>54456473
>>54456487
>mfw living in $350/month rent
>>54456515
You should! I have teacher friends and while they say its stressful, its very rewarding. Of course its only been a few years so they may just haven't burned out yet.
Reasons why not to is the inherent conflict with the duty to try to commit to all your kids, and the fact that its proven that even one bad egg can ruin a class. This is a stressful position I hear.
>>54456189
I would only become a teacher if my contract stipulates that I don't have to work with black children. Is there a way to do that?
>>54456654
Why would you want to do that? Black kids are the people who need education and a teacher to commit to them the most.
>>54456654
Do what I did and take a position in a place that is +90% white.
What if I'm also a polyglot?
>>54456654
No, you have cut your teeth on that black shaft, so they say.
>>54456687
only English matters.
>>54456664
All races need the same amount of education. Blacks are deficient in parenting. When people say blacks need education, they're actually just saying that blacks need more adult supervision and mentoring and are trying to dump all that shit into the laps of overworked public servants.
So no, I'm not interested in being a state-issued surrogate father.
Anyways
All you are talking about are good things. An industry with high competition and standards is a great thing because it leads to lower prices for the consumer and more specialized niches. It don't currently see any reason to believe this is a bubble.
I'm sorry you got left behind I guess. There are retraining opportunities offered by federal, state, and sometimes local governments if that wasn't up to your speed.
>>54456719
Public schools are bankrolled on local property taxes, so they are actually underfunded in addition to the children having negligent parents.
>>54456736
That's ridiculous.
It's kinda weird how we have all these neoliberal scumbags proposing to reform education by weakening union protections, deploying an army of temps, and selling schools tech gimmicks they don't need, but there's no movement to change the way schools are funded, or break up the school district system in favor of a statewide network.
>>54456719
A teacher is much more than an educator.
The fatherless generation really messed up black youth, but they were moving along fine before and now are after. IQs are rising, birthrate percentage is falling, marriages are doing better, etc.
I get your point however, if you assume that a teacher is there to teach the kids and not, as said, to be partially a surrogate father which I have always felt is a partial duty of a good teacher. At least a willingness to do outside of class-related work with kids if that's what you mean.
I think you are assuming its worse than it is. Its looking better for them.
Either way, yeah, teaching in middle class neighborhoods is probably less stressful and hard on you if you just want to educate.
>>54454544
Are you happy inside?
>>54456654
Work at a private prep school. Most kids are white. If they're black, they usually act pretty white.
>>54454561
Cool cliches
You must be one of those normies who 'kinda like computers so i'm gonna major in CS'
>>54454180
>extreme job competition, all you need is a computer and internet so competition is international
This only applies to freelancing. Those guys who are cheaper and more knowledgeable than you may not live in the city where those jobs are. And relocating from Bumfuckistan to your country is not an easy option, sometimes not even possible.
>even highschool kids are taught programming now
So what, programming is still horribly boring for 90% of the population. You need a particular type of personality to like programming, it's not a universal thing, people who think it should be something universal are just naive dumbfucks. It won't work, at least not past doing basic html/css pages.
>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless
That may be the case with some companies, especially the big ones which have specific policies on the standards of their employment.
But most every other company that is specialised in building software of any kind doesn't require a degree, simply because a degree doesn't guarantee that the person will be capable to do the job. Despite appearances, they don't teach you much programming in a CS degree, maybe one or 2 courses. In my country, the CS curriculum only includes one course for the entire 4 years degree where people learn programming. So, when these people graduate, they're completely incompetent if a company asks them to build a website. How do you think they actually learn that? By self-teaching, like everyone else. There's no actual CS degree that teaches you how to build a website using PHP and MySQL, as far as I know. What you learn in college is purely academic stuff.
>>54454231
"do a reverse binary tree"? What's that? Reversing a binary tree?
>>54456799
I'm sure there's a movement, but nobody is ever going to get behind a platform in favor of weakening their own childrens' schools. If something like that did pass, people would just downgrade their cost of living and send their kids to private schools forcing operating budgets to drop anyway. The real solution is charter schools, but even that has a lot problems
>>54456799
I'm one of the only self-identifying neoliberals left I think.
The only opposition to teachers unions I see from the people I talk with is that when there is a school doing bad, the leading thought is to hold the teachers accountable. I think this is understandable but often holds the wrong people accountable I mostly agree that funding should be thought of as first because my readings of the evidence a few years ago for a project seem to show that increased helicopter drop funding showed improvements in academic performance.
In my experience, funding usually is only successful when its layered in other things. For example, our school wasn't able to pass a bond for increased funding. So they bundled it with "new football field" and it passed and people were willing to pay taxes. People are very wary of paying money for public schooling. It just doesn't have very tangible results that you can see right away.
I would be less defensive of teachers unions if teachers didn't have enough threats to fire them already.
>>54456912
Probably swapping the pointers to sibling nodes as you traverse a binary tree. I don't know what else that would mean
>>54456912temp = right
right = left
left = temp
recurse(left)
recurse(right)
I wouldn't have hired him either.
>>54456942
I don't see how more choice weakens schools.
If all public education is handled on the state level, that means anybody with a certain score can go to a certain school, regardless of what zip code they live in. So you could have academically rigorous schools, trade schools, sports schools, dumb kids schools, whatever. The only limit would be an individual student's ability: not geography or wealth.
>>54457001
I think his answer was literally that he'd just use a library, so:treeInverter.invertTree(tree)
>>54457050
Because it funnels money away from under-preforming schools because people choose the better ones. This sounds fine, but what if your kid cant go to a school 50 miles away because his school is going to shit.
>>54457096
why is this wrong? Sounds like someone who know's the language well enough to know not to reinvent the wheel. Assuming the library exists.
>>54454180
dont tell me what to do
>>54457119
Because the question is about algorithm design, not being a smug asshole
>>54457105
All funding would be done on the state level too, obviously.
And not everybody can go to the best schools, obviously. They'd be ability tested.
>>54454180
Jesus Christ. If you live in the united states, then you literally just need to be semi-competent and you'll land a job. and by semi-competent, I mean be able to program fizzbuzz and not be a complete autist. yeah, you might only be making 50k a year, but that's better than nothing.
What is the job market like for people who have experience and certificates with SAP ERP systems?
>>54457119
not the point of the question. anybody can say "oh, just use the library". Not everybody can invert a binary tree, and Google is looking for talented engineers.
Oh boy. I'm getting a technologist degree in web development to land on a better job because people dont like portfolios anymore in my country, Brazil, they demand a fucking degree, they expect you to be a computer engineer in disguise and they want to pay you 300 dollars a month.
I always have this feeling I'm about to make a huge mistake. Especially when the course itself doesnt know if it should graduate computer scientists in 3 years or web developers in fact as the name suggests. Also, the guy supposed to be teaching web stuff just guide us through w3school, which I always used. Glad he dont know about codeacademy.
>I NEED YOU ON MY TEAM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8G9QIIvSpzE
>>54454180
Use the same strategy as the autist programmers but turn it to your own advantage.
What do you already know a good amount about? What have you spent the last couple of decades obsessed with?
Now is the time to finally take that thing to the next level. Become a pro at it.
>>54458664
How do I make a career out of traps, anime, and shitposting?
>>54458679
Become a neet, thats all I do
>pic related
>>54456837
I feel dead inside. Finance can get you a decent bank job but your work overtime everyday for no extra pay and the job is boring.
>>54457582
Thank you for sharing this anon, it's just the motivation I needed to finally kill myself.
>>54458697
Without wagecucks, who will maintain the infrastructure? The power, internet and constant supply of high fat diet that fuels your shitposting routine is possible because of wagecucks.
>>54454180
I am one of those autists who programmed since I was 14 and know everything about programming, but I'm in pharmacy school
Programming is a shit career but a fun hobby
>>54458770
>Programming is a shit career but a fun hobby
Because of outsourcing and Indians who designed their education system around CS.
White programmers innovate, Indians are just code monkeys.
>>54458679
Switch your shitposting over into twitter, instagram, and facebook. Develop a following. Try to get on as a mod or admin somewhere, even if you have to work for free for a while.
All the same time look for and apply for anything like a social media planner or manager for any company you can find. Also look into the political arena. You could perhaps end up as a paid shill, and eventually make your way into the team for any number of websites.
>>54458753
i dont hate wagecucks, i just dont want to be one. Im simply informing you of one path in life. You can become a neet and enjoy your life or become a wagecuck.
>>54454563
but anon you need to know how to program to implement machine learning
> t. Statistician
>>54454180
I didn't even a have a comp until uni years.
>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless
That's just a shit job. Self education is the ONLY way to become a decent developer these days.
>>54454180
Its nice that you realized its a meme, now you can go and learn piano or violin. You are free now. Have fun, anon.
>>54456292
applied math
>>54456956
People don't want to pay for public schooling because the kids that care (will benefit from it by actually making something of themselves) don't necessarily need it.
The smart kids who will go to college don't need mo money fo dem programs or extra tutoring, etc.
They're going to get good grades even if the teacher is shitty.
>>54456299
>Faggots be so happy to be getting $18/hr for a Cali internship when I'm literally saving so much more not paying $2000/month in rent.
This is the same shit that happens in Alberta and they've always bragged about how fucking great their Province is because everyone is "rich" (and paying through the nose for everything).
They're going through hard times now though, so I won't go any further in to it.
I work as a programmer and make a pretty decent salary.
I started seriously programming towards the end of my college years, but I've always had an interest in computers (building them, fixing them, playing videogames and shit, but never wrote any code)
So no, what you say is bullshit. I studied with people who were in their early 30's at the time and they managed to become decent programmers.
Don't drag everyones motivation down just because you're lazy with 0 passion
>>54458909
why
>>54454180
Just get a freaking degree and stop crying.
>>54456256
That's hilarious, one of the programmers I used to work with took his whole first work day to set-up his work environment just the way he liked it. The guy seemed like he had mild case of autism, not to denigrate, and came to work on a scooter wearing what seemed to be a special-ed helmet and all.
They got rid of him after 3 months. Felt sad and kinda glad for him at the same time.
C'est la vie.
>>54456285
>I'm writing my own software using my own methods
You are the worse type of programmer from a companies perspective - someone who uses non-standard libraries and above average technical acumen. Its not easy to hire 3 Jr Programmers and kick you out the door in 3 months.
>>54456654
Come to Poland, bruv. You won't meet a single black kid here.
I'm one year into an associates for programming, was thinking of transferring into a three year program or degree for CS/Software Engineering. Should I save the money and go into something else after I graduate from the associates?
>>54456880
I'm guessing you've never worked a real job a day in your life. Wait until you're 10 years deep into your job and the 1000th person comes up-to your desk and says the internet is down - only to find out they kicked the Ethernet cable from their workstation for the 10th time this month, all while interrupting the big IT project due tomorrow and you're only half-way done despite being up for 3 days straight.
Despite all the competition and complexity you shouldn't be having issues if you have the logical skills, talent, or ambition for it. The fact that you failed means you lack one of these and either need to work to obtain it or find something that you are actually good at.
t. web app developer / pajeet tier java dev
>>54462079
Yeah, but how can I work in a Polish school if I don't speak Polish
>>54457119
Technically not wrong, but I don't think they are asking 'do you know a library that can do this' but 'do you know how to do this without adding external dependencies to the project'.
>>54454425
where is your country?
I'm about to flunk out of my last semester of cs and I still got a six fig offer. Get good OP
>>54462279
is that per month or per year?
> mfw i am the turbo autist that's been programming since 8 years old
basically had to do nothing to get a masters degree in computer engineering lol, now i just work from home
>>54457192
>Not everybody can invert a binary tree, and Google is looking for talented engineers.
How does knowing that particular bit of trivia mean you're talented?
It's not like anyone in the present day invented an efficient method with which to do so.
From my standpoint, a more valuable skill is that this person doesn't know how to do it, but they could learn to do it in less than 15 minutes, and understand how and why it works, and when to use it.
>>54462511
Per year. No programmer get's paid six figs per month. Not unless they own their own business or do consulting or something.
>>54463277
Anon, you were being patronized.
Are you autistic?
>>54462184
so you took CS and you're working in IT? wtf are you even talking about
>>54454180
Yes. Let the people who actually enjoy programming do it.
Get out of my industry normie.
>tfw have a CS degree but can't get a job
>>54462184
That's IT. I doubt anyone loves IT.
Computer Engineering / Science however, that's a different story.
>>54463348
I wasn't even the original poster. I was just assuming someone was misinformed.
>>54454180
AHHAHAHA
dude I landed my first job in just 6 months self teaching using youtube and free courses at udemy and udacity etc.
Its up to you, you are too lazy probably
Major in math / CS
>Be smarter than code monkeys
>Be more employable than math majors
>>54463446
try freelancing
>>54463446
How many jobs have you applied for?
It attracts the worst kind of austists, Re: /g/
>>54463511
How do I do that? I am too socially retarded to talk to people and make contacts.
>>54463528
Trust me, you can't be socially and mentally retarded enough for the freelancing world. All you gotta do is learn the languages and set a rate and be polite to the clients as hard it is. Or you can just wear girl clothes and become someone's trap whore
>>54456912
>>54456971
>>54457001
He's referencing the blog post about a salty software dev vet who couldn't reverse a binary tree from memory on a white board in an interview and therefore didn't land a job at Google/etc.
>>54463640
>be polite to the clients
Remember where you are.
Hey guys, figured I should ask this question here
I am a 3rd-year CS student, and I somehow landed my first internship for this summer. I'm starting in a week or so, despite being a complete autist.
Could anyone with programming internship experience at a large company tell me what it was like? How was the experience overall? Any tips for someone who has literally NEVER had ANY kind of job before?
How many internships should a typical college student do before graduation?
>>54458953
Except we have studies showing an increase in funding yields an increase in the level of academic performance for at risk schools.
That's what I'm referring to.
>>54463713
that's an obsolete meme senpai, neo /g/ got different kind of ppl
>>54454180
>tfw you believe everything you read on zeh interwebs
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFvT_qEZJf8#t=2m57s
video extremely related (2:57-)
>>54457191
>SAP
Depends on what the experience and certs are. End user experience is not particularly valuable. Technical and functional certs depend on what's in. Mobility, Fiori, HANA are all pretty hot right now.
>>54454658
>>54455695
I had a temporary job archiving job applications in Northern Europe so I have skimmed through hundreds of resumes and application letters for various positions mainly in Northern Europe but with some international locations (some tech, some business related, some law, even some theological positions). Only a minority (perhaps 1/5) had pictures, and almost all of them were young women. As I recall, pictures were most common in applications for business/accounting jobs.
>>54464068
>trying to use your looks to get a job
lol fucking women
>>54464096
It may also have been that women were more often applying for business/accounting jobs, but yeah, obviously the picture is more important if you're an attractive girl. Can you blame them though? They're just using all available means to maximize their chances of getting the job or at least being called for the interview. Being cute is also a marketable attribute in many jobs, including business/accounting.
>>54462756
>Why ever learn any math? We have calculators!
Same logic.
>How does knowing that particular bit of trivia mean you're talented?
Because CS fundamentals are "trivia". This is what bootcamp kids actually believe.
>>54454366
>you gotta have those 10,000 hours to become a master in any field
/g/ is quora now
>>54464605
I think she meant a literal certified master.
For example, to be PMP certified, you have to have like 7,500 hours of doing actual project management.
>>54464605
>>54464634
No, it's just a general meme about how long you need to work on a skill to become an expert. It's often quoted everywhere.
>>54464653
no shit fagtron
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
It doesn't matter how many people are taught programming, they will never be good at it because they will never be able to keep up with these guys.
I'm a freelance front end web dev with no formal training. I study tech stuff and programming in my spare time constantly without even thinking about it. I have been for years. I'm a web babby but I make loads of money because everyone else is incompetent at their jobs.
If you're actually into programming then there is lots of money to be made. Every company I do work at struggle with hiring, and they get a lot of applicants. Everyone is shit.
>>54454180
I wish I was born in the 90s or even early 00s, when we had full employment and you could make some serious bucks in IT.
>>54455695
>highly looked down upon in the US and the Americas
funny when they need to impersonate literally everything
>Hi, I'm John McSmith, and I'm going to introduce you to...
>>54454180
>>expected to keep up with all latest technologies or else you're FUCKED
>>extreme job competition, all you need is a computer and internet so competition is international
sounds like programming is high stress and a job you have to take home with you. why would you pursue such a career OP?
my advice:
get a shit job with absolutely zero stress.
zone out at work and don't even pay attention. collect paycheck. get off work. smoke weed and work on your home server lab, or write code for something you actually want to do.
programming and IT is super fun until you're REQUIRED to do it. when your tech-illiterate boss is giving you impossible deadlines and all the other bullshit that goes along with a tech job, you'll very likely get burned out on that thing you thing you used to enjoy.
>>54454180
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
Don't see a problem there, only if you're a normalshitter you'd hate writing code 16 hours a day, because you have friends, gf, commitments and responsibilities, an average programmer only has only has 1 responsibility which is meeting set deadlines and if you want to be good at writing code you should have no social life, because it's detrimental to your career.
>>54456083
>incoherent rage that ends in declaring that the web should have been based on lisp
>incoherent
would have been for the best desu
>>54464757
Likely underpaid.
>>54458697
>roasties
everytime
>>54457001
Wait, so is the answer you just gave the way its supposed to be done, or is it the way that guy did it?
Because if its the latter, I must admit, I would have done it the same way you did. In this case, can someone tell me how its supposed to be done.
>>54464800
New to the thread but the tweet they are talking about he just said google uses my open source software but apparently im not good enough because I cant reverse a binary tree on a whiteboard. Not sure what attempts he made but he couldnt do it.
>>54457001
Maybe he failed because 'inverting' is a retarded and unintuitive way of calling this?
>>54456083
>>54456256
>>HERE IS THE IDE WE USE
>implying one IDE that all the devs use
>or even worse; one IDE is forced
I would just walk away.
>>54456256
>WINDOWS 7
And that's where I do a 180.
>>54465158
You mean 360?
>>54456256
>"can i use lisp"
>NO
This made me giggle like a cute little school girl.
>>54465169
Yes but I figured it's best to lay the meme to rest :^)
>smiley with the carat nose
>>54464961
I got a little confused
by inverting I wasn't sure if it meant swapping the left and right sides of the tree or traversing from the bottom up/flipping the tree so the nodes are at the top level and move down
I remember an exam question years ago that was something about traversing a red/black from the bottom up with some additional rules and it was a pain
>>54465193
>>54462209
teach english OR
keep sucking dick
>>54462756
>a more valuable skill is that this person doesn't know how to do it, but they could learn to do it in less than 15 minute
An even more valuable skill might be a person who doesn't know how to do it, but can find a solution for it without being told how it should be done.
These are the people who write the stackoverflow answers that allows you to Google it in 15 minutes.
>>54454231
>Someone post that picture of the homebrew guy complaining that he didn't know how to do a reverse binary tree.
he was right though. the problem wasn't whether or not he could do it. he was expected to pull it out of his ass in the middle of an interview with no access to documentation.
just his projects alone would guarantee him a job at several other places though. but google has this "cult of the prodigy" shit going on.
>>54454180
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
they are extremely rare. stop spending so much time on hackernews.
>expected to keep up with all latest technologies or else you're FUCKED
unless you work for any company with legacy software stacks (eg most of them)
>extreme job competition, all you need is a computer and internet so competition is international
and the kind of competence that's built over years of work and study. I mean, installing 3dsmax doesn't immediately make you compete with every 3D artist out there.
>even highschool kids are taught programming now
it's been happening for decades and it doesn't change shit unless you're so insecure that teens who know VB6 scare you.
>most entry level jobs now require a computer science or software engineering degree, self teaching is basically seen as useless
sort-of true. if you're lucky like me you can land a full time programming job with no real curriculum. impressing the right people goes a long way.
>>54454180
>full of turbo autists who've been programming FOR FUN 16 hours a day since they were 8 years old
Don't worry. I wrote my first Assembler program at the age of 11 and now, 17 years later, I'm an unemployed NEET with "social skills" of about 1/10. Most people get on my nerves and apparently I get on theirs.
>>54465308
He should have been able to at least take a good stab at it, if he even knew what a binary tree was. I know CS freshmen that could have answered that question no problem, but this dick couldn't.
>implying that having a good grasp of fundamentals makes one a 'prodigy'
>>54464756
>get a shit job with absolutely zero stress.
>zone out at work and don't even pay attention.
Shit job = shit pay = shit life.
Fuck you OP.
You expected to just waltz in to CS, learn a little programming, and then make 75k a year.
Not how it works fuccboi.
>>54457119
companies like Google need engineers who can build shit without searching stackoverflow for the the library command they're supposed to be using because the documentation for their shitty framework is non-existent
>>54465524
it's very possible to be happy while having a shit job. especially if you're single with no dependents. but I'm sure this is something we'll never agree on, so no point in talking about it further.
>>54458831
Its not very hard, is it ? Just open your favorite book and copy the formulas.
I think its harder to get your data ready than actually implement the methods, once you know your methods
>>54464800
The answer he gave is how its suppose to be done. The guy just went full autism and didn't write anything resembling that.
>>54456905
> There's no actual CS degree that teaches you how to build a website using PHP and MySQL
and thank god for that, you absolute retard
>>54465706
my university offers a 400 level CS course where you do exactly that.
OPs entire post: I wanna be a developer but I suck at it.
The issue is that the developers in the field currently have no other redeeming skill other than what basic procedures they learned in school. A real developer will have no trouble finding a job because they can integrate anything into their code and have a wider skillset than just writing a class.
>>54454180
>tfw you've been programming since your teenage years and are mildly autistic
Feels great, man.
>>54465217
>by inverting I wasn't sure if it meant swapping the left and right sides of the tree
>>54457001
>or traversing from the bottom up/flipping the tree so the nodes are at the top level and move down
Not hard either.recurse(left)
recurse(right)
left.right = this
right.left = this
(obviously do null checks too)
>>54455695
>It's common in Europe
I'm french, our teachers told us to avoid doing that, because it's really doesn't help you get the job, it's more like shooting yourself in the foot.
>spend 3 years not really committing myself to college
>keep all information at arm's length and get by
>I can study this all when I need to
>suddenly can't understand my coursework
>tfw you realize comp sci was a mistake
Fuck.
>>54466028
It's being phased out slowly.
I, for one, do not have a picture on my resume/CV.
>>54465402
Yeah. It's sort of expected you can understand basic data structures and discuss them on the spot.
>>54465382
>Can write an assembler program
That's not impressive at all, except maybe when you were 11, but what can you do now? What have other programs have you made?
>>54467740
Congratulations, you memed yourself.
>>54465739
I think most Universities do, but as an elective. I don't think it should be a requirement unless you want to be a DBA.
>>54465742
Basically this. A lot of people fail to realize that having a degree means fuck all about your skill. It's only purpose is to get your foot in the door, if anything at all. But what matters is what you do outside of class, how you apply your knowledge and learn more. Otherwise the most you'll get it your shitty barely optimized malloc you got a D on.
>>54456736
Why not simply pool all property taxes in the state into one giant fund and distribute the funds to all schools proportionate only to the number of students in each school?
I was thinking of getting a degree in software then maybe slip into networking later in life for a easy retirement
is software a okay path to go to? Jobs are practically everywhere and even moreso for people who are into sports and aren't mouth breathing
>>54469199
forgot to mention I'm not really fast at math if anything it is one of my weakest points
>>54467740
at least you're not pajeet
>>54469604
He sounds no better than Dinesh.
>>54470390
>>54463734
>at risk schools
dropped
>>54458953
At the end of the day it comes down to individual drive.
I took out 30,000$ in loans to attend a crappy 4 year before I could admit I didn't give a shit about it. There is no way the government should have given me that money. My peers were even worse.
>>54469001
This is why I hate the college meme
>go to college you'll get a job
>what do you mean you have just a degree?
>you didn't do anything outside of class?
what do you want from me
i'm not the superman of code, i have zero interest in the shit i just want a job
i didn't even get bad grades I have a 3.9gpa
>>54465706
I took a database course and did that for my final project. Most people just did Access since that was the first thing the prof suggested, but I was taking a webdev class too so I decided to use a bit from both sides.
I think the site is garbage but he loved it.
>>54454247
most likely since this isn't what most people in the tech industry are like.
>>54470699
I mean, that basically is what they want. Otherwise, you're just like any other generic graduate. Don''t you even have a part of CS you like? A lot of people specialize.
Also, what were your 3 best projects you did for school.
>>54470699
There are plenty of people passionate about programming and who also have side projects they've worked on while getting their degree.
Most employers want them over you, with no passion and subpar skills. GPA doesn't mean jack shit. Sorry, but that's just how it is. You should have picked something else to major in, or just not have gone to school at all.
>>54470699
i had your GPA and the only call backs i was getting were for the shit tier contract positions through third party recruiters, i.e. the company didn't even want to use its' own recruiters to fill the position. the position had no benefits and paid 40-45k whereas the "average" starting pay in my area was 60k.
meanwhile all the women and shitskins were getting offers even if they had a shit GPA and did nothing outside of class.
>>54471162
They have more to offer. They need to fill diversity quotas. That person in particular seems to have nothing to offer his employer, so they'll pass on him for someone better.
>>54470699
Oh, and I forgot to say, the meme wasn't college.
>>54471162
again, GPA doesn't mean jack shit. I've personally known 4.0 students that can't program their way of a paper bag.
and who knows, maybe you went to a shitty school.
>>54454180
>implying I use programming to make other faggots rich
l e l top kek
>>54471310
this desu senpai
>>54470699
Its as of the employers can smell the bullshit from a mile away. You would probably make a terrible employee with that attitude.
>>54454180
>tfw when took computer science classes since freshman year
>tfw IT for school district
>tfw accepted to UW
feelsgoodman
>>54454180
there it goes my plan to leave this NEET life
is there hope for a 30yo unemployed man with little experience at work?
>>54454507
>Or do something you love. If you like what you're doing, then getting good at it shouldn't feel like such an endeavour that you have to frog post on an anonymous message board.
just like the creator of Python (programming language) said, if you like something you will do it more and you will get better at it, if you hate something you will do it less and left behind by people that are more motivated than you
tl;dr: do what you love and go with it
btw, do you want a tech related (kinda) skill to learn at home? try 3D modelling, it's art + programming + math. it takes a lot of time but if you are good you can be a freelancer selling porn to people with a weird fetish
