Pic related. I don't need much, just room to sit and look out the windows. Maybe enough space for a bed so I could spend the night.
I live right on a lake, so supplying constant fresh air from an electric compressor running on grid power is no problem.
I'm just trying to figure out what to make it out of and the logistics of getting something heavy enough to hold down all that air into the water and sunk where I want it.
This one's made out of a water storage tank, one of the options I was looking at. If I could find someplace like a junkyard to get one for cheap that'd be ideal.
>>946491
You're going to die down there.
>>946501
I don't think so. I'm scuba certified and have a great deal of diving experience, I have a solid grasp of the principles involved and how to make it as safe as it can be with various redundant backups.
All I'm proposing here is a simple diving bell that's big enough and comfortable enough to spend some time in.
>>946494
Thats fucking stupid, water storage tanks are not meant to hold up to this pressure.
This is almost as autistic as using a shipping container for an underground fort.
>>946491
depends on how far down you are wanting to go.
you need to understand the two types of pressure containers..
the containers designed to keep pressure in, eg an air compressor tank.
and containers designed to keep pressure out, eg a submarine.
at any rate you will be building this out of steel with many reinforcements.
pic related is what you can expect to happen if you use a tank designed to keep pressure inside and "vaccume" outside
>>946503
>Thats fucking stupid, water storage tanks are not meant to hold up to this pressure.
....You do not seem to realize that there would be no pressure on it whatsoever, except the vertical stress of buoyancy.
This is because the air inside would be of equal pressure to the water outside, what is known as an "ambient pressure" habitat, hence how it is possible to enter/exit through an open pool in the floor without water rising to fill the structure.
Water doesn't simply exert force on anything you put into it. There has to be a differential of density.
>>946505
take a water bottle full of air and dive to the bottom of deep end (12 ft) and watch the bottle crumple up.
If "ambient pressure habbitat" Id assume it would be used on submarines.
This further raises the question as to how op would regulate this pressure, or even generate it in the first place.
>>946508
>take a water bottle full of air and dive to the bottom of deep end (12 ft) and watch the bottle crumple up.
Because it is sealed. If instead you remove the cap and hold the bottle opening side down, it won't crumple. The air inside will be compressed but the bottle won't crumple because water can rise up inside to displace the trapped air.
>If "ambient pressure habbitat" Id assume it would be used on submarines.
No, because submarines regularly dive much deeper than human physiological limits, and then you also incur stuff like the bends if the submarine were to stay at a depth greater than 30ft for any significant length of time, then ascend to a shallower depth.
Submarines avoid all of the issues associated with nitrogen saturation by using the structural strength of the hull to withstand the pressure differential between the interior and exterior.
However, there is a class of recreational one or two man submersibles called "dry ambient" submersibles which operate at ambient pressure. The occupants are in a dry compartment with windows like a regular submersible but the air pressure is kept at ambient, adjusted in realtime by the same mechanism as a scuba regulator.
>This further raises the question as to how op would regulate this pressure, or even generate it in the first place.
An air compressor.
>>946491
If it's not to deep you could build a chimney to the surface?
>>946514
I see, I was thinking a sealed environment.
I suppose the air compressor would work well, bring it up to pressure on the surface and when the structure is finished compress or release air as needed
>>946515
That would equalize pressure between the inside of the structure and the surface. If there is an open pool in the floor for getting in/out, this would result in the water rising up through that opening to flood the interior.
If you mean have it so there's a sealed underwater room with a ladder up to a surface platform, that's doable, but not the type of structure I was looking to build.
>>946517
Excess air simply bubbles out the opening in the bottom that you also use to enter and exit through. This means the air pressure inside is always equalized with the water pressure outside, automatically.
>>946514
you have a good understanding of this, maybe you could explain what happened.
When I was still a kid I got the idea to bring air with me underwater. when I was at the bottom of the deep end I tried breathing the air I brought in the bottle and it did not work out.
I remember allot of pain, and I think I was fairly disoriented. I made it back to the surface and it took a while for the pain to go away. I cant recall if the pain was in my chest or in my head, but I'm thinking it was in my head like my head exploded.
I know I fucked up, and I know better now, but can you tell me what the technical name for what I experienced is?
>>946520
huh, well how about providing fresh air to breathe.
is there a way to scrub the co2 or would he have to cycle the air every so often?
>>946523
Well first off, the air in the bottle was still at surface pressure. To breathe from the bottle it would have to be at higher pressure than the surrounding water, as is the case with a scuba tank.
From the sounds of it you simply over exerted your lungs trying to suck air from the bottle. It wasn't the bends, too shallow and you weren't down for long enough. It wasn't an embolism because you weren't breathing compressed air.
>>946524
The air is being pumped continuously from the surface via hose. All of the air in the structure would be replaced every few minutes, continuously, not allowing time for CO2 to build up. This is also how old timey diving helmets worked.
>>946523
Here is someone who did what you were trying to do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kds-mWfR-Y
He did it by using plastic bottles designed to store slightly compressed air. At that level of compression you can only get a few breaths from them before they are empty, but it is doable.
>>946527
is the air in my lunges pressurized or unpressurized?
>>946528
oh, there is the issue of having a hose running that length though. its at risk of being damaged and would require constant inspection, accidental damage, dogs chewing it, boats running into it. unless he were to get allot of it and bury it
>>946531
Unpressurized, because you took it with you down from the surface. So as you descend, your lungs get flatter and flatter. This won't hurt you, many free divers (with no scuba gear) dive extremely deep this way. So do dolphins, and this is why dolphins never get the bends despite being quite deep for up to 30 minutes at a time.
If you breathe pressurized air, like stored in a scuba tank, when you are underwater it will give you air at the same pressure as the water around you. This will always be higher pressure than at the surface.
This can be dangerous if you hold your breath afterward and swim to the surface, as the air in your lungs expands on the way up. If you have trouble visualizing why, blow some bubbles underwater and watch them grow larger as they ascend.
This is because there's less and less water pressure compressing those bubbles as they rise into shallower and shallower water. The same applies to air in your lungs.
>>946534
divers breathe air at the same pressure of the water around them, what would happen if the air they breathed was the same pressure as surface air? I think thats what happened to me.
>>946536
They would hurt themselves trying. Indeed it sounds like that's what happened.
>>946538
is there a technical name for this?
>>946533
Meh, not that big a concern. you HAVE to have a one way valve at the end of the hose, obviously, but anything that big should take at least 20-30 minutes for the air to become toxic. Have an air flow sensor connected to an alarm (fail safe, such as an electromagnet stopping a mechanical alarm from going of, in case of loss of power).
I wouldn't sleep there, though, OP, unless you also have backup pressurized air tanks in case you don't wake up quickly @ alarm. Also @ what happens if there's a leak and you get hit with sleep paralysis? while awake, no issue, but if asleep then air bubbles out until water is floating you.
>>946556
not op, but Ive had sleep paralysis 4 times so far and Im not even in my mid 20's yet.
Ive had 3 of those within the last year and a half.
having sleep paralysis while underwater in that thing while its leaking would be a special kind of hell
>>946565
If it leaked, air would bubble out, but water wouldn't come in. That could only happen if the pump shut off and there wasn't a check valve to prevent backflow of air. Nobody in the history of diving has ever drowned in an underwater lab.
>>946544
Not that I'm aware of. It's just not possible. You just can't create sufficient pressure difference to inhale any substantial amount of air.
>>946569
>It's just not possible
I proved that it is possible with a collapsible container.
>>946503
The pressure will come from within
If it is shallow enough it is possible.
OP's biggest problem will be preventing it from surfacing. His anchoring system will need to be much stronger than most folks here will believe and he will have to find a way to evenly distribute the stress along the whole tank or the tank material will sheer or crush.
Source: I recover wrecks and use tiny lift bags to lift massive structures
>>946494
seems comfy af
>>946491
You should do it OP.
Also, instal a toilet. Imagine taking a dump while looking at fishies. Coziest shit ever.
>>946584
Yeah, that's why I want one. To chill in bed under warm covers while listening to music and watching fishies swim by the window.
>>946585
The problem is, where would the shit go? Either into the water in which case when you swim down there you might run into your old turds, or you then need a pipe to the surface just for flushing your toilet.
Hey OP, just a thought. How are you planning on getting down to the house? Scuba?
You could cut that stage out (or simplify it considerably) if the house itself could raise to the surface. As long as it's airtight like a diving bell it would be buoyant and could be brought to the surface, making repairs and resupply a piece of cake. You'd just need a strong cable and a winch to pull yourself to the bottom when you wanted to submerge.
This could be part of a security measure too. The alarm goes off and isn't attended to within a time frame? The winch unlocks and feeds cable until you're top side.
>>946591
This assumes something on the bottom to attach the cable to. Rapid ascent is also generally not a good idea even if you haven't saturated due to the possibility of embolism.
Why a diving bell, have a turret that goes above the waterline so that you enter and exit while being dry. Water pressure is not that much 2 or 3 metres under.
>>946600
It's cooler to me. I simply don't want what you're describing. I want the whole thing to be underwater and only accessible by diving.
>>946491
>Dig a basement. Build glass/plexi walls or something cheap and solid with some windows. Dig a large channel or underground tunnel to connect it to water.
>>946606
....Could you draw a picture of this? I am having a hard time visualizing it.
>>946520
just remember to have multiple gauges to keep track of pressure/alarms/co2/nos/o2 etc.
One way air valves for adding and venting of air. Also make a air escape structure in the open water opening to direct all that air, otherwise that structure will shift and possible capsize without anchoring into bedrock(most lakes have a foot or more of clay/small/large rock between the water and the surroundings.
ALSO PERMITS, PERMITS, PERMITS
>>946613
>ALSO PERMITS, PERMITS, PERMITS
There's no possible way any authority would approve this
>>946600
just remember to have one way valve for air, something to direct all that bubbling air from your structure, some way to anchor it from lake/airflow currents, and lots of co2/o2/n detectors and pressure gauges.
PERMITS PERMITS PERMITS
and a light
hope that lake doesn't have any sort of leach problem though
>>946614
only with the power of MONEY and lots of political friends/professionals
That or you own the entirety of property around said lake and any/all access to/from it. Otherwise too much possibility of idiots dying/doing things.
>>946607
He's suggesting you could sit in a basement with a window facing onto a long, dark tunnel of lake water.
Not only would building below the water table be hell, it wouldn't really give that "house in the lake" effect OP wants.
>>946606
>tunneling under a lake
>what is suicide for 300?
>>946531
Yes.
>>946491
This sounds like a cool idea but might be a quite tricky build. Fastening the thing will be one problem, you need either shitloads of weights or solid planet to fasten it. Make sure the lift is distributed evenly, maybe by making some (steel?) straps above it but also something on the underside so that it won't be sucked in. Heavy chain would help with the lift. I'm trying to calculate this in my head but intuition says underside needs support also.
Then as anon said, sensors! And check valves. Windows might be tricky to make really solid.
Backup plans need to be made for all kinds of emergencies, if for example a fastening breaks. Or if you loose lift and it sinks to the bottom, you need a way to get out. If the airflow stops. I work as a scientific diver and did take a two year course in diving. In the lake where we trained there was a bell but it was just a few cubic metres so there was space to be in air just to your chest. It was fastened with heavy chain to the planet. As there was no air circulation I always inhaled through my regulator, could talk during exhalation though so it was fun.
Remember to train for emergencies! You might not have lots of time if feces hit a rotating object.
And post results in the unlike event of a completed project! This sounds cool.
>>946670
Sorry, no pansies allowed, boy.
>>946514
>in b4 OP locks himself in his improvised pressure chamber, pressurizes himself to 125PSI then it ruptures rapidly depressurizing him and making his whole body boil.
>>946924
Unfortunately I think this is the kinda project where if you have to ask the internet how to build it, you're not going to be capable of building it.
I would love to be wrong though.
>>946531
maybe
You should probably sink pylons an find thick ass very high strength possibly bullet proof Plexiglas make air tight box cut in air and out air holes make an umbilicus to shore hook up to life support furnish leave a tank and suit down there just in case and bam reverse fish tank
Also permits it's a cool idea but don't get raped in prison over it
>>946515
Try lowering a toilet roll into your bath. Is it gonna hold the water down?
>>946528
What's to stop all the old air from building up and all the new air from bubbling out?
Weight? A hole on the top? High flow rate?
>>947456
High flow rate
http://www.divexglobal.com/capabilities/defence-diving/salvage-and-engineering/show/divex-ah5-free-flow-air-helmet
Prolly there is a way to calculate the flow rate. As the dead air space is big I would suspect the flow rate would need to be big enough. I have been diving with both the AH3 and the AH5, I have been informed of the needed flow rate in hot but can't recall as it was years ago.
I agree with anon that this project is unlikely to be finished but I hope it will. It would be really awesome to hear how it turns out in the unlikely event of success!
There was not long ago an interesting thread about a DIY diving helmet but it died and presumably it didn't work out. Hopefully yours will!
>>947442
he would just get fined and get it taken down at his expence.
>>946577
Good luck trying to dive with a gallon or more of collapsible air storage container. I'd sincerely like to see you try.
Lots of diving clubs build these, but usually only large enough to surface your upper body in so you can talk, take your mask off and have something to eat.
Difficulty and expense increase exponentially as you increase the volume of (extremely buoyant) air you want to hold underwater. Enough space for a bed and a camping toilet is probably doable on a budget, but I shudder to imagine the smell that would build up.
>>946491
From what I understand, the way to dig holes under water (like for securing dock posts) is to use a device that sucks up lake water and then compresses it out through a hose. You use the pressurized stream to dig a hole, then drop your beam in and let it settle. It may take several months or longer for it to really firm up. Also, in your case, you would want to dig a big hole so you can drop a beam that is fixed to a circular plate, then bury the plate as deep as possible. I'm thinking basically a table leg with a circular base, but scaled up in size so the circular base is something like a 6-10 foot diameter. Four or six of these may be enough to hold the structure down. The deeper the structure, the more support posts you would need.
Of course, you would want to flood the structure as you bring it in to the lake, so that you can move it around easily. Then use your air line to slowly fill it with air once it is secured to the posts. As another anon pointed out, cables running over the top of the structure would probably help, so that the roof doesn't seperate from the rest of the structure once it has air in it.
Post updates if you actually get started on this!
Dumping relavant
So, you want an Aquarius:
>The Aquarius Reef Base is an underwater habitat located 5.4 miles (9 kilometers) off Key Largo in the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. It is deployed on the ocean floor 62 feet (19 meters) below the surface and next to a deep coral reef named Conch Reef.
>Aquarius, designed by Perry Submarine Builders of Florida and constructed by Victoria Machine Works, was built in Victoria, Texas, in 1986.[4] Its original name was "the George F. Bond", who was the father of Sealab in particular and saturation diving in general.[5] Underwater operations were first planned for Catalina Island, California, but were moved to the U.S. Virgin Islands. Following Hurricane Hugo in 1989, Aquarius was taken to Wilmington, NC for repairs and refurbishment and was redeployed in the Florida Keys in 1993. Aquarius is located under 20 m (66 ft) of water at the base of a coral reef within the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary, an ideal site for studying the health of sensitive coral reefs.
>The laboratory is most often used by marine biologists for whom Aquarius acts as home base as they study the coral reef, the fish and aquatic plants that live nearby and the composition of the surrounding seawater. Aquarius houses sophisticated lab equipment and computers, enabling scientists to perform research and process samples without leaving their underwater facilities.
>The habitat accommodates four scientists and two technicians for missions averaging ten days. Scientists on the Aquarius are often called "Aquanauts" (as they live underwater at depth pressure for a period equal to or greater than 24 continuous hours without returning to the surface). A technique known as saturation diving allows the aquanauts to live and work underwater for days or weeks at a time. After twenty four hours underwater at any depth, the human body becomes saturated with dissolved gas. With saturation diving, divers can accurately predict exactly how much time they need to decompress before returning to the surface. This information limits the risk of decompression sickness. By living in the Aquarius habitat and working at the same depth on the ocean floor, Aquarius aquanauts are able to remain underwater for the duration of their mission. In addition, because Aquarius allows saturation diving, dives from the habitat can last for up to nine hours at a time; by comparison, surface dives usually last between one to two hours. These long dive times allow for observation that would not otherwise be possible. Way stations on the reef outside Aquarius allow aquanauts to refill their scuba tanks during dives
>Aquarius consists of three compartments. Access to the water is made via the 'wet porch', a chamber equipped with a moon pool, which keeps the air pressure inside the wet porch the same as the water pressure at that depth ('ambient pressure'), about 2.6 atmospheres, through hydrostatic equilibrium. The main compartment is strong enough, like a submarine, to maintain normal atmospheric pressure, and can also be pressurized to ambient pressure, and is usually held at a pressure in between. The smallest compartment, the Entry Lock, is between the other two and functions as an airlock in which personnel wait while pressure is adjusted to match either the wet porch or the main compartment.
>This design enables personnel to return to the surface without the need for a decompression chamber when they get there. Personnel stay inside the main compartment for 17 hours before ascending as the pressure is slowly reduced, so that they do not suffer decompression sickness after the ascent.
>Since 2001, NASA has used Aquarius for its NEEMO (NASA Extreme Environment Mission Operations) analog missions, sending groups of astronauts to simulate human spaceflight space exploration missions. Much like space, the undersea world is a hostile, alien place for humans to live. NEEMO crew members experience some of the same challenges there that they would on a distant asteroid, planet or moon. During NEEMO missions in Aquarius, the aquanauts are able to simulate living on a spacecraft and test spacewalk techniques for future space missions. The underwater condition has the additional benefit of allowing NASA to "weight" the aquanauts to simulate different gravity environments.
>Due to budget cuts, NOAA ceased funding Aquarius after September 2012, with no further missions scheduled after a July 2012 mission that included pioneering female diver Sylvia Earle in its aquanaut crew. The University of North Carolina Wilmington was also unable to provide funding to continue operations. The Aquarius Foundation was set up in an attempt to keep Aquarius functioning. In January 2013, a proposal to keep Aquarius running under Florida International University administration was accepted.
>From June 1 to July 2, 2014, Fabien Cousteau and his crew spent 31 days living and working in Aquarius in tribute to Jacques Cousteau's 30-day underwater expedition in 1963. Cousteau estimated the team collected the equivalent of two years' worth of surface diving data during the mission, enough for ten scientific papers.
>>947992
>>947993
>>947995
>>947999
Oh, and on last thing: It apparently costs aroung 3,000,000/per year for upkeep:
>>>http://protecttheoceans.org/wordpress/?p=182
>550 peer-reviewed scientific publications since 1993
>120 feet-Aquarius can withstand pressure to
>114 missions total
>81 tons is what Aquarius weighs
>63 feet underwater is where Aquarius rests
>50 years of underwater exploration is what Mission Aquarius is celebrating
>43 feet is the length of Aquarius
>21 July end of Mission Aquarius and (hopefully not!) the last mission there
>16 NASA NEEMO (astronaut) missions conducted at Aquarius
>10 average days per mission
>9 feet in diameter (Aquarius)
>8 exterior viewports
>6– number of people Aquarius can house
>5-number of marine zones that the Florida National Marine Sanctuary is divided into for study
>3.5 miles offshore of Florida is where Aquarius Reef Base lies
>3 high pressure air supplied undersea stations provide air and communication to Aquarius
>3 number of times Dr. Sylvia Earle has visited Aquarius
>>$3 million is the cost to run Aquarius Reef Base for one year
>2 pressurized compartments (Aquarius)
>1 charismatic goliath grouper
Ooh. I dive almost every day during the whole summer here in the Baltic. For me as a biologist and a scientific diver seems this Aquarius thing would be an wonderful experience! Now I just need to figure out something findable enough to research and apply for funding!
Interestingly the only thing you would see in the Baltic in a base like this would bee green water. Our visibility is okay at the best but mostly utter crap.
>>946566
only if the pump was strong enough to maintain pressure. I dont think OP intends to run a diesel offshore platform rig to pump air into his underwater coffin. the reason nobody has died in one is because they are built properly and inspected by engineers and scientists who need to trust their lives to them. it could bubble air and leak water inside anon.
>>946587
you sit in the water with your head above the water and hang your ass over to the side. if it's a floater then it will float away. if not, it will drift to the bottom of the lake bed and crabs will carry it away. now how to keep crabs out of your pod?
>>947455
>u-bend out the bottom
Is aquaman coming for a while op?
>>946523
Were you able to inhale the air underwater? If so, did you hold your breath on the way up or did you exhale?
When scuba diving it's important to keep breathing (or slowly exhaling at least) during ascent. This allows the expanding air in your lungs to escape. Failure to exhale this air can cause pulmonary barotrauma.
>>946503
>using a a beat up shipping container covered in rust and cracks that still costs $4k for anything other than shipping a bunch of Chinese shit.
I can't fucking stand those dumbass poiple.
>>946524
Lime will remove co2 from the air
>>949215
In theory a large number of plants would also do the trick.
Of course that would mean OP has to build, at least a section, out of something transparent and make sure the water is clear enough for light to reach his underwater greenhouse.
The only problem with that is keeping something large enough submerged.
>>946503
>pic related is what you can expect to happen if you use a tank designed to keep pressure inside and "vaccume" outside
Nope, this is the opposite. This is the result of pumping out a tank withhout venting. This causes a vacuum 'inside' the tank and collapses it because it's not reinforced.
>>949302
Sorry, I think I misread your post.
>>946515
Not directly. However, with a valve or pneumatic expander (i.e. turbine or reciprocating piston) in the flue, you could feasibly do it, albeit with some added level of serious risk should the valve/plumbing fail in the open/flowing position. Since the pressure inside the habitat is above that of the surface (and of the water above the habitat), you could make the chimney from thin/flexible materials so that it would collapse and sort of seal if the valve itself failed; or you could simply terminate the chimney right above the habitat instead of running it all the way to the surface allowing the smoke to bubble up to the surface. Either of these would require a fairly high level of positive flow while in use, which would add considerably to the amount of pumping power required to replace the exhaust with air from the surface (though, if using a pneumatic expander instead of a lossy valve, you could recover this power from it and use it in turn to drive the pump).
In fact, that's a good idea, chimney or not - for ventilation, instead of JUST a pump and then bubbling off the excess air, OP should couple it to an expander (positive-displacement, such as a piston, would probably be safest) to minimize power consumption. And, of course, valves should be included for redundancy should the pump fail.
>inb4 of dies of O2 deprivation
Sinking a tub then filling it with air is easy, replenishing the oxygen is not.
To act like a diving bell, all the fort has to do is be reasonably airtight, have a steady supply of pressurized surface air, and resist the force of buoyancy it exerts when filled with air at the bottom of the lake.
The force calculations for buoyancy are very straightforward. Simply calculate the volume of the proposed structure, then plug in the appropriate values for the weight of the fluid being displaced by the structure. Then you'll know how much weight will be required to keep it on the bottom of the lake.
For a 4x8x8' cube, it's around 16,000lbs. There's your main problem. It's going to need to be ridiculously strong to contain even a modest volume.
GOT DANGIT science! Why is this so complicated? I'm not OP but I'd love to do the same thing. Or make a wet sub. But nooooo....exploding lungs and air bubbles and stuff.
Good god, is it possible for a DIY loser to make a diving bell helmet from a 5 liter bucket at least? Stop killin my dreams guys
I saw someone post here a while ago, they had built pretty much exactly what you describe. The basic structure was a really strong net made of nylon I think, anchored to the bottom of the lake with large amounts of concrete. They would then take a pretty big pretty thick membrane, something like a waterbed liner only bigger, and inflate it under the mesh using a scuba tank. They'd leave the structure there for a weekend or so, and then pack it up and take it away when they left the place. It wasn't their lake, but only they knew where the anchors were so it was cool. The air would get stale if too many people spent too much time down there, so they'd refresh it with more tanked air that they'd swim down with them.
It wasn't for overnight use, but I suppose you could float an air mattress underneath that, and get on top for a marginally dry experience.
>>949337
As far as structural loads go, 8 tons isn't THAT much. A single 1x1 inch mild steel bar can take a tensile load of 8 tons with a 3.3 safety factor.
what happened to the guy with the underwater hamsters?
>>946491
The trick is to match the inside pressure with the outside pressure by putting a lot of air into the housing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oG_uPFGlwI
>>949381
That's still going on: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uq9eNHLZoYQ
There's a "mega hab" with 2-3 floors under construction but it's slow going on account of being pricey
>>950219
coolest thing seen all day. Thank you.
>>950299
There's a blog documenting all the prototypes until the most recent one somewhere. I don't have it on hand but it probably comes up on the first page of results for "hampture".
>>949372
Is this it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHV8I_Ck1Jo
>>949381
>>950219
>>950321
>Hampture
>Nobody mentioning plasticbrickautomaton
Shame...
try something like design pictured
>>950653
More like Sandy's treedome, surely?
