Am I the only one that loved the Martha moment? Even people that liked the theatrical/ultimate cut usually say it's fucking retarded.
>>84206867
It was fine. Only autists didn't get it.
>>84206867
>>84206970
Snyder pls
>>84206996
Autistic meme post. Congrats for proving his point.
>>84207001
This.
>>84206867
I can't decide if it was a dumb idea executed well or a good idea executed poorly, honestly.
>>84207023
I think its more of the latter
Supes didnt necessarily HAVE to say Martha
>>84207072
C'mon. She's the only family he has left. When you die, who do you think of if not your family? Especially when she's going to be roasted alive because of your defeat.
>>84206867
I loved it too. I seriously suspect that only people lacking empathy did not get it.
Also, I don't think I ever read anything that used that piece of trivia as a plot point, so points for novelty.
>>84207123
>Also, I don't think I ever read anything that used that piece of trivia as a plot point, so points for novelty.
this
>>84207123
Yeah it was pretty fly.
>>84207072
The concept that Batman just never realized that Supes, despite having the powers of a god, is still just another fucking person is pretty great honestly. But they went about the realization in a silly way. Maybe if they played up Bruce losing his shit more throughout the movie. Yeah he was outright killing people and branding criminals, but he never lost his cool until "MARTHA" which kinda makes me think he never even had a 'no kill' rule and was always like this (which I doubt is the case).
>>84206867
I understood and liked the intent but the way it played out was really dumb.
Supes gets MARTHA's name out there in a pretty ham-handed way; I figure it would have been better if Supes just went "you're killing MY MOTHER" and Bats is all like WHOA YOU HAVE A MOTHER TOO????
Of course, that means you can't have the "muh parents twitching in the gutter" line, since that version hinges entirely on Bats seeing Supes as a gross alien god without parents.
>>84207103
I don't refer to my mum by her name
>>84207177
>>84207183
Just have Super say
"Promise you'll save her. Promise you'll save Martha Kent"
>>84207183
Not to be that guy, but when you stop living with your parents you'll eventually stop calling her your Mum to other people.
>>84207194
I've lived away from home for a decade, you condescending prick. She's still mum.
>>84207194
Tripfag, I'm forty, and I'm currently shitposting in a Vancouver apartment a country away from my mother, and I still refer to her as "mom".
>>84207206
Hey I said not to be that guy. Didn't mean any offense to you.
>>84206867
People born and raised on the virtues of pride rarely understand any form of bonding or altruism.
I couldn't tell you how many stories based on brotherhood or friendship go completely over the heads of nearly everyone I knew back in high school. While my circle has gotten tighter as the years have gone by, you can still pick up on it just listening to conversations in/around the theaters; people frequently confused by self-sacrifice or voluntary peril on the part of any character.
While it has nothing to do with the Martha scene, I'm willing to bet it's the same branch of people that chose it to complain about over everything else; either as a red herring to dissuade discussion from the film's extensive list of actual flaws, or out of legitimate confusion and misunderstanding.
>>84207212
You refer to her as "mom" to other people? Hmm I find that strange. My bad.
>>84207249
How?
What's strange in saying "My mom".
>>84207249
Even if you don't call her mom, would you say with your dying breath, save Martha or save my mom?
I think most people would choose the latter, enough that the former sounds odd to most
>>84207249
Unless they're people who know her by her name, why would I call her by anything else?
A complete stranger is immediately going to know who I mean if I say mum. They're not going to know who the fuck I'm talking about if I say Karen without proper context.
>>84207249
Obviously. Why would I refer to someone I know as "mom" and people know as "anon's mom" as anything else?
>>84207263
>>84207262
Fair points.
>>84207023
Dumb idea executed poorly.
>>84206867
I think it would have worked better without saying her name. The fuck someone adress his mom by name anyway. So it was badly executed imo. I don't have much problem with the scene but I can see why people made a shitstorm over it. Everyone knows batman has parents issues but at the end he is letting a massive "threat" live because of a coincidence.
>>84207194
desu I still live with my mom and dad and most of the time I refer to them by their names.
>>84207194
My 40yo parents never called their parents by their names.
>>84206867
>>84207023
There was nothing wrong with pointing out that their mothers had the same name. The retarded decision was making it an important turning point of the plot.
>>84207372
Why?
>>84206867
fuck off back to /tv/
>>84207297
This
>>84207295
with a semi related point, I live with my parents and have been calling them with their first names since I was a teen. I refer to them to others with first names or as dad/mom, depending on whether they know them or not.
>>84207552
>>84207463
>>84207372
>>84207338
>>84207315
I thought that calling your Mom "Mom" was something made up for movies like having sex or brushing your teeth. Huh... Really makes you think.
>>84207103
Nolan pls
>>84206970
It's not like it's something complicated or deep. There's nothing to "get" here. It's literally
>MY PARENTS ARE DEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!
>>84206867
>>84206970
>>84207023
>>84207103
>>84207567
>Tripfag
>Probably never loved by his mom
>Like Snydershit
Why am I not surprised?
>>84207851
>Loves a moment where two guys share a bond between mothers
>Never loved by his Mom
well ok then
>>84207873
Fucktard. See the objective facts that are >>84207263 and >>84207262
>>84206867
Who calls their parents by their first name? I'm adopted and I still call my guardian Aunt Faye rather than just Faye.
>>84206867
"blah blah blah autists just don't get it"
How do you fags live being this retarded
>>84207263
My mom's name is Karen!!
>>84206867
Yes. You are the only one here who likes it. It's retarded. "Oh his mother's name is Martha, he has a mother, that means he can't be bad."
The very fact that they fought at all was retarded and hamfisted enough without the ridiculous "Martha" nonsense.
>>84206970
Only retards would NOT get it. That was a large part of the reason BvS was crap. The "symbolism" wasn't symbolism at all, it was shoved in your face as though the director was continually saying "geddit geddit geddit!" We "Get" all the symbolism in BvS, it's impossible for anyone that can understand the concept of symbolism NOT to get.
>>84207567
>Trumpfags has absurd levels of autism
Every fucking time
>>84208306
Huh, that was a strange autocorrect, I don't believe I've ever types the term Trumpfags before. Is the Android autocorrect made for shitposting?
>>84207187
This was the only thing I had trouble with. The only explanation that seems legitimate which explains why he didn't say Martha Kent is from this one Youtube video which theorizes that Superman was actually using manipulation. Snyder's Superman is actually incredibly smart in a tactical way, so it wouldn't be that much of a stretch I think. This makes the scene a bit different though.
>>84207776
Good grief, the effort he went through to post that and he still missed the point; it was so on-the-nose it was fucking idiotic and the execution was hilariously awful.
The whole film was basically "George Lucas Star Wars Prequels" levels of awful, how do they not get that? This franchise is the Star Wars Prequels of this generation.
>>84206867
No.
Christ, I wish threads that began with "Am I the only one" were autobans.
I think making them fight to begin with was the issue since day one. They should have disagreed sure, but I wanted Worlds Finest where they finally decided to team up, understanding one another's methods. But oh well. Can we least all agree we got a fantastic Batman?
>>84208666
>I wanted Worlds Finest where they finally decided to team up, understanding one another's methods.
Isn't that what happened though?
>>84208527
Add "now that the dust has settled" and "what did he mean by this" and we got a deal
>>84208684
Haha what? No, we got DKR and then DoS, the most WF we got was the scene were Martha makes a comment about Bruce's cape.
>>84208725
Superman said "I was wrong" showing that he understood Batman's methods. After the fight when they made the plan, that nod they gave each other was awesome, a great "World's Finest" moment. Then they teamed up to defeat Doomsday.
It was arbitrary cheesy, but it was the first time I 've seen the fact that both their mothers share the same name used in any medium
>>84206867
I don't like a lot about this movie but this is one of the few things I actually didn't hate. For people who lack empathy, it was a surprisingly Human moment for this Batman they established as being hardened by his Career as Batman. Superman begging him to save Martha, took Bruce back to when he was a child in the night wanting someone to save his Mother. Batman could only see Superman as a threat, this Godlike figure to be feared. When he asks him to save Martha it humanized Superman for him, and that's why he stopped fighting him.
>>84208684
No. We got 2 hours of one planning to beat the shit (or kill) the other, then resolved after they realized they were both being idiots. What I'm talking about is both trying to solve the same issue, which should have been Lex, and more time devoted to what should be a good friendship. The entire fight is stupid because no matter the outcome it's stupid. More dynamic duo, less TDKR.
>>84208983
Batman was the only one being an idiot though, and that was just because of all the bad events he dealt with in his life. They became friends in the third act, but unfortunately Superman died. This causes a bigger impact on Batman because the first new friend he has had in many years dies almost immediately. At least he has Wonder Woman.
>>84207123
>I loved it too. I seriously suspect that only people lacking empathy did not get it.
Agreed.
>>84206867
Superman should have said "my mother is going to die" instead of Martha, that alone should have been enough to distract Batman
Let Lois say her name is Martha.
>>84209605
Wouldn't work. Batman already knows Superman has parents; he just thinks they're aliens too.
The biggest problem I had with the Martha moment is that they had legitimate grievances with each other. Superman had problems with the way Batman dealt with criminals (this gets even more explanation in the ultimate cut) and Batman had a right to be pissed with Supes after the Metropolis incident and even moreso after he wrecked the Batmobile and threatened him. Realizing they had both had a mother named Martha shouldn't suddenly wipe the slate clean.
>>84209763
Superman realized that Batman's methods weren't actually all that bad, Batman realized "muh 1% chance" is actually retarded. Alfred was right, Superman is not their enemy. Even if there is a chance of him becoming their enemy, it's not right to punish someone for something they haven't done yet.
>>84208527
>>84208702
These niggas know what's up
>>84209888
And they found this out not by having a conversation (which they should've tried having from the beginning), but by punching each other until one guy cries out for monmy?
>>84209953
>simplifying things to make it seem bad
What fallacy is this again?
The thing is, Batman realized he was being like Joe Chill in killing an innocent man. He's never killed an innocent man before (though he has manslaughtered criminals). Superman DID want to talk at first, but Batman wasn't having it.
>>84210089
How did you get to that? Nothing about beating the shit out of Superman gives way to realizing Superman is innocent.
And if Superman wanted to establish a dialogue, maybe he should've done that BEFORE wrecking the Batmobile and telling Batman he had enough. Clark was a fucking moron in this movie. Bruce was too, but at least it's established that he's blinded with rage.
>>84206867
>vlcsnap
>>84210150
>How did you get to that?
Batman flashbacks to Joe Chill.
>And if Superman wanted to establish a dialogue, maybe he should've done that BEFORE wrecking the Batmobile
He didn't want to at the time. He only realized later that he was wrong.
Both Clark and Bruce had intelligence. They both just had incorrect assumptions about each other, which is fine unless you want them to be omniscient.
>>84210348
There's nothing intelligent about immediately resorting to violence and threats. For having the superpowers of a fucking god, Superman could stand to have some fucking foresight.
In all seriousness, it's a pretty good idea that has the possibility of becoming a great scene. What could have been a very subtle and clever detail was made into a loud and noisy over exaggerated mess. Imagine if all Superman said during the scene was "Save Martha" and we pan back to Batman shocked expression as he realizes that the two have more in common than he first thought. Its at that moment Bruce figures out not only that Clark Kent is Superman (this would require adding a new scene to the movie where maybe Bruce meets up with Clark and his Mother. Y'know, really show the differences in how the two were raised and the impact their caretakers had on their life/personality). He remembers Clark's mother but more importantly he remembers the tragic loss of his own mother. He stops fighting and lends Clark a hand, ending the fight with Bruce saying "Nobody else has to die tonight"
But instead we had WHO IS MARTHA?!!?! MARTHA!!! WHO IS SHEEEEEE? MARTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To paraphrase Shakespeare, "Brevity... is wit"
>>84209605
If he only has so long to save her, I wouldn't tell him "save my mom" and just let him figure out who, I want him to know to save Martha. I would've said Kent too, but w/e
>>84210719
also Cavill sounds like he's shitting himself
>>84207937
He wasn't addressing his mom. He was asking Batman to save her which he can't do if he doesn't know who she is.
>If there's even a 1% chance he's a threat it must be taken as absolute certainty!
>Oh wait he has a mom nvm lol.
>>84211529
The World's Greatest Detective should be able to figure it out, hell Lois Lane figured everything about Superman out and she's not even that good of a reporter.
>>84211611
But there was a time limit so why would Superman make it harder for no reason?
>>84211611
>Batman should be omniscient
>Lois being able to figure out his identity with such a massive advantage doesn't make sense
Did you even see Man of Steel?
>>84211675
Yeah, I did, and found it amazing that a reporter with a shoddy budget was able to track Supes all over the world and find out everything about him in less than a year, but a 20 year hardened Batman couldn't figure out anything about Superman with more than 2 years. Just seems odd that one of the things that Batman is known for (detective work and prep time) were not found in this film at all.
>>84211723
>Just seems odd that one of the things that Batman is known for (detective work and prep time) were not found in this film at all.
I honestly don't know what you expected from someone like Snyder. You can't use slow mo cgi for detective scenes.
>>84211757
>you can't use slo mo for detective scenes
Don't tell that to the people who produce the csi shows.
>>84211723
A reporter who had first hand experience with a guy, able to find people he has worked with previously, and knew exactly how he looked like being able to figure out his identity is implausible for you? Batman studied Superman and didn't know he had a secret identity. You're just pulling bias from different versions you know rather than looking at the situation presented.
>>84211933
>Batman studied Superman and didn't know he had a secret identity
Then it sounds like Batman sucks at detective work.
>>84211970
>Batman should be omniscient
>>84211933
Lois was told to stop writing about Supes because Perry thought it was fake, meaning her budget, which allowed her to make all these trips to speak with people that knew Supes and speak with them, was gone. And she was able to track down Superman who was hiding from the public eye in less than a year. Batman, with literally unlimited resources and a motivation that went beyond curiosity, couldn't be bothered to do any kind of Detective work at all? Come on man, all Bruce would have had to do is look up Clack Kent and run some facial recognition programs. Synder dropped the fucking ball here, yes, he made sure Batman's fights were cool and all, but at least Nolan's shit version of Batman actually did detective work.
>>84212036
>>Batman should be omniscient
>all detectives are omniscient
Your argument is shit anon...
>>84212036
No, but he should at least sort of live up to the sobriquet of "world's greatest detective."
Guys, don't forget that this whole comment chain about whether or not Batman should know who Superman is started when someone said it was unrealistic for Clark to call his mom by her first name. Regardless of what Bruce knows, it's perfectly reasonable for Supes to use his mom's name when talking to other people. That's just how communication works. He wanted to be sure that Batman knew it so he said it. The original comment was dumb and this entire argument is moot.
>>84212058
Superman didn't exist when Lois was investigating. She was just looking for a guy who had abilities beyond human.
>>84212085
>>84212096
Coming to a conclusion without ANY evidence is omniscience. Go ahead and explain how Batman would know that Superman has a secret identity in this universe. Good luck.
>>84212218
Remember that time Zod announced to the world that one of his people have been on earth for years, hiding as one of the humans? If that's not a secret identity I don't know what is. Also, coming to a conclusion without any evidence is called a hunch, detectives work to find evidence that can prove their hunches to be facts.
>>84207194
>>84207249
>>84207567
Yes Tripfag, I still refer to my mom as mom. You know why? Because I'm not embarrassed to let people know that I have a mom out there that I still love. She's your mother, why would you refer to her as just any other person? It's kinda sad that you want to take that title away from her just because you feel you're "too old for that". It's not like she raised you or anything.
>>84212275
>Also, coming to a conclusion without any evidence is called a hunch
No it's not. Coming to a conclusion with only a SMALL amount of evidence is called a hunch.
Why would he continue to hide amongst humans after being called out by Zod? Why would he need to? What would knowing Superman's secret identity do to help Batman? Put yourself in Batman's position, without knowing all the things you know by being an audience member. I know that might be hard for you, but try anyway.
>>84206867
I did.
It showed how insane and crazy Bruce Wayne really is. Dude had a mental breakdown just be hearing that name.
>>84212424
If I were batman, and I was planing to fight a god from space, I'd want to know fucking everything about him, not just stuff that would give me a physical advantage, but a psychological one as well. Who is the Superman? Where did he come from? How did he hide on earth for so long? Who knows him best? Why does Clark Kent loom exactly like him and write so many puff pieces?
I don't know man, if I were Batman I would have tried to remember that I'm a fucking detective before anything else.
>>84207746
Right. Which is Batman's primary motivation for every action and has been since the 80s.
>>84212494
You mean like this? Things Batman knows:
Superman is an alien, comes from Krypton, everyone likes him in Metropolis which is why the Daily Planet writes puff pieces on him
How did he hide on earth for so long? Because he looks like a human. Who knows him best? There's no way of knowing. How would you find that out?
An alien that can destroy the entire human race. Why would he have friends? Like I said, from BATMAN'S perspective, not your own pretending to be Batman. Try harder. Visualize what Batman would. Try to put yourself in his position WITHOUT the extra knowledge you have. Add in the Batman's characteristics, why he thinks the things he does.
>>84206867
The Martha moment was fucking retarded. Even worse was after, when Batman says he'll save Martha and Superman looks at him like, "I trust you, guy who was going to stab me to death 30 seconds ago."
>>84212494
>Why does Clark Kent loom exactly like him and write so many puff pieces?
If you're really going to include this argument, then I suggest you never watch or read anything with Superman because you'll always be upset.
>>84212625
In your head it's okay that Lex figures out Superman has a human family even though Batman can't.
>>84212626
How is that retarded? His express goal was to go to Gotham to get Batman's help. This is when he knows full well that Batman wants him dead. The only thing he didn't know about was the Kryptonite, and if you're implying that the kryptonite should somehow make Clark think Batman is worse than he did before the fight, I don't know what to tell you, senpai.
>>84212643
>>84212625
I mean fuck, LOIS LANE is able to figure it out before he even puts on the cape. You're seriously going to tell me that Batman, with a billionaire's resources, can't do it?
>>84206970
>You guys just dun get it!
low quality bait at it's best
>>84212676
>His express goal was to go to Gotham to get Batman's help.
To that end, he opens up the fight with "Lex tricked you and has my mom so I need your help." Oh wait.
>if you're implying that the kryptonite should somehow make Clark think Batman is worse than he did before the fight
What in hell makes Clark think Batman is trustworthy?
>>84206867
The literal only one. And you've also got a trip, so you're an attention staved dipshit either way.
>>84212643
>Batgod wankery
Will it ever stop? Are we forever doomed to hear about how prep-time=invulnerability and "world's greatest detective"="I can figure out literally everything"?
Why is it such a big deal if Lex Luthor is smarter than Bruce Wayne? How is that any different from the comics? Lex's is one of the smartest characters in the DCU. His arrogance and inability to perceive Superman as anything but a challenge to himself simply leaves him unable to fully use that intelligence in many situations.
>>84212635
Yeah, I probably should have left that out, but the point remains valid like>>84212643 and >>84212679 said.
>>84210719
>But instead we had WHO IS MARTHA?!!?! MARTHA!!! WHO IS SHEEEEEE? MARTHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Superman literally triggered Batman, and not in the funny meme way you all use it. Of course Bruce would flip out.
>>84211408
He was dying...
>>84206867
>>84206970
>>84207023
>>84207123
>>84207148
>>84207170
As eloquently summarized here: >>84207297
>Dumb idea executed poorly.
And exactly what >>84207505 typed
>>84212719
>>Batgod wankery
>wanting the "world's greatest detective" to be a detective is wankery
>Why is it such a big deal if Lex Luthor is smarter than Bruce Wayne?
It's a big deal if he and Lois Lane are better detectives than the world's greatest detective.
>>84212749
You put a lot of work into creating a post that was just
>lol what this guy said
>>84212708
Replying to a post about a particular problem with your analysis of Y by saying "but X is bad!" is goalpost moving.
Clark's overall motivation is irrelevant to my critique of your response. The fact is simply that Clark expressed with no ambiguity his intention of getting Bruce's assistance in saving Martha before he even started fighting him, and so the idea that Bruce trying to kill him should change that is incorrect.
>>84212752
>"world's greatest detective" to be a detective is wankery
Except in the movie he is. He figured out what the White Russian was. You're just upset that he wasn't able to figure out this particular point.
>>84206867
I don't "love" it, but I feel like people have made a big deal over it for nothing, like a lot of the movie.
>>84212784
>Replying to a post about a particular problem with your analysis of Y by saying "but X is bad!" is goalpost moving.
Good thing I didn't do that.
>the idea that Bruce trying to kill him should change that is incorrect.
That's wrong though.
>>84212817
>Except in the movie he is.
Lois and Lex are obviously better if they figured out that Superman had a family without having it literally screamed at them.
Stop trying to defend this dumb scene.
>>84207194
My parents always talk about my grandparents as "mom and dad"
I always talk about them the same way, maybe in a serious talk I say "mother and father".
Pls stop being an edgelord and call them
They propably miss you despite you being a fail as human being
>>84212841
Didn't care for MoS, so I don't remember how Lois found out, but Lex was looking up everything about Superman and his actions longer than Bats, and Bats was consumed with rage to take him down rather than to learn about his beginnings.
>>84212841
I like to think Batman was so caught up in his hatred that he didn't stop to think. I mean, he obviously wasn't in his right mind the entire movie. That was the point. The blind black guy Clark talked to even spelled it out for us, Batman is more vicious and different from before.
He had one goal in the movie: kill Superman. He didn't think about if this was a person with a family and a life.
>>84212892
>so I don't remember how Lois found out
She asks a bunch of people and finds out in like a week.
>Bats was consumed with rage to take him down rather than to learn about his beginnings.
And Lex was not consumed with rage to take him down? What kind of excuse is that?
>>84207072
Why does everyone assume that Clark saying Martha was somehow random?
As a journalist, after the party, when he found out that Bruce Wayne=Batman, he surely researched Bruce and found out that his parents were murdered and their names.
Fact 1: 100% certainty that Clark knew Bruce's mother's name was Martha.
Fact 2: Batman was just about to impale Superman
Fact 3: Superman knows if he dies his mom will also die.
I am 99% certain that Superman used Martha instead of Mom on purpose, as a sort of psychological shortcircuit of Batman. He would either succed in stopping Batman altogheter, saving his own life and his mother, or he'd at least inform Batman that an innocent woman named Martha was about to die and that he should save her after he kills Superman.
It was a very logical thing for Clark to say.
>>84212817
Too bad he didn't spend that time studying the most dangerous being on the planet huh? Might have been able to find out everything about Clark if he just cared enough to try.
>>84212904
>I mean, he obviously wasn't in his right mind the entire movie.
And Lex was, or...?
>He had one goal in the movie: kill Superman. He didn't think about if this was a person with a family and a life.
Then why did Lex?
>>84212934
Jeeeesus fuckin Christ, the mental gymnastics. Even if this were true - and we're not shown anything about it in the movie - it doesn't change the fact that the entire change from death match gladiators to bestest buddies happens because of an extreme coincidence.
>>84212949
Because people handle things differently and Lex Luthor is not Batman? The fuck? What kind of question is that?
>>84212982
But Batman is the world's greatest detective and his whole thing is being obsessive to an unhealthy degree.
>>84212975
People are always like
>oh they just became best friends
Not really? Clark didn't even want to send Batman to his mother at first. They became two people who helped each other out.
Also
>moving goalposts
>>84213007
It's not moving the goalposts, you retard, stop abusing terms you don't understand.
Batman goes from wanting to kill Superman to saying "I failed him" and wanting to fulfill his legacy because of extremely small circumstances.
>>84213041
>well even if everything you said is true it doesn't matter because so and so
Superman is supposed to inspire people and if it happens in even an unrealistic way, I'm fine with it. Still doesn't mean they became best friends. Batman just felt like he fucked up, and he did.
>>84213077
But Batman's argument doesn't change. Superman not having a mother has nothing to do with there being even a 1% chance that he'll attack humanity.
>>84212643
Lex had the advantage of already having cameras everywhere. Read the prequel comics.
>>84212679
Lois Lane had first hand experience with Clark.
>>84212752
Maybe if Batman actually had some way of knowing, but he doesn't.
"I found out that Superman has a secret identity, and found out who he is!"
"Great news, Master Bruce, but how were you able to do it?"
"I just saw the movie Man of Steel, directed by Zack Snyder! It was that easy!"
>>84213177
>Lex had the advantage of already having cameras everywhere. Read the prequel comics.
"General Grievous isn't a shit character, watch Clone Wars!"
Nah.
>Lois Lane had first hand experience with Clark.
Batman had over a year to figure something out.
>Maybe if Batman actually had some way of knowing, but he doesn't.
He does.
>Huh this Kent guy keeps writing about Superman
>Maybe he knows something
>I guess I should just wait until I run into him at a party instead of actively pursuing my number one obsession
>>84213041
>Batman goes from wanting to kill Superman to saying "I failed him"
That was after the fight with Doomsday though.
>>84213125
Batman's argument was wrong. He found out that it's an incorrect way of thinking. Plus as long as he doesn't kill Lois, there's not even a 1% chance of him going bad, as the Knightmare sequence showed. Superman only went evil because Batman "took her from me."
Don't kill Lois, Superman doesn't go bad. Simple equation.
>>84213125
No, Batman's whole 1% thing was supposed to be WRONG. He was the antagonist and he was wrong. Just because someone could be a threat doesn't mean they will be and doesn't mean they should die. Batman was biased because of his experience in the Metropolis battle and it was fucking with his head. He wasn't okay. Hearing Martha's name smacked sense into him and he realized that he hasn't been living up to the ideals he should be.
Again, this is just how I like to think of the movie. You can call it mental gymnastics or something, whatever. It's what I took from it.
>>84206867
I loved it, especially Affleck's acting, but Cavill's clearly the weaker link that brings the scene down a bit. Maybe it's the dialogue, or maybe it's Cavill, but Superman's part of this scene just doesn't work as well.
Also I loved the scene at the capitol, with the piss jar. It was so intense and Holly Hunter really did a phenomenal job in that one, and in the movie overall.
>>84213249
>That was after the fight with Doomsday though.
So what?
>Batman's argument was wrong.
But WHY?
> Plus as long as he doesn't kill Lois, there's not even a 1% chance of him going bad, as the Knightmare sequence showed.
But someone or something else could kill Lois, as this very movie showed.
>No, Batman's whole 1% thing was supposed to be WRONG.
You know that and I know that but why does Batman know that?
>Hearing Martha's name smacked sense into him and he realized that he hasn't been living up to the ideals he should be.
But why does that change Batman's argument that Superman is too dangerous to live?
>>84213294
>But why does that change Batman's argument that Superman is too dangerous to live?
Because he realized that Superman was a person and not a fucking weapon of mass destruction?
We're going in circles man. I'm done lol
>>84213338
>Because he realized that Superman was a person and not a fucking weapon of mass destruction?
Why the fuck would BATMAN of all people think that people are incapable of going bad?
>>84213222
>I'm not going to read the supplementary comics to get the extra information! I'll just continue to be wrong and lie about it!
>Batman had over a year to figure something out.
He did. Just not about this "secret identity" conspiracy theory that he would have no reason to believe in. Go ahead and tell me why he would think that Superman would go back to hiding after being revealed. Or if it would even be possible for him to go back into hiding.
>implying it's ONLY Clark writing stories about him
>implying Clark is even the one who writes the stories
It's the Daily Planet who writes the stories.
>>84213294
>So what?
That's when Batman is sure of how great a person Superman is.
>But someone or something else could kill Lois, as this very movie showed.
Lois dying isnt what triggers it, BATMAN personally taking her from him is.
>You know that and I know that but why does Batman know that?
Superman's sacrifice.
>>84213385
>>I'm not going to read the supplementary comics to get the extra information! I'll just continue to be wrong and lie about it!
>A movie that needs supplementary material to make sense isn't shit! It's not!!
I don't believe this shit.
>Go ahead and tell me why he would think that Superman would go back to hiding after being revealed.
Because he knows that people want Superman dead. That's as good a reason as any to go back into hiding.
Also, thanks for admitting Batman is a shit detective.
>It's the Daily Planet who writes the stories.
And Batman does no investigating about this whatsoever.
>That's when Batman is sure of how great a person Superman is.
This is the part people take issue with, yes.
>Lois dying isnt what triggers it, BATMAN personally taking her from him is.
What? Read this again and tell me it's not retarded.
>Superman's sacrifice.
Which doesn't change Batman's argument. Why the fuck does Batman of all people think that good people can't turn bad?
>>84206867
It wasn't a bad concept, it was just executed poorly. Batman had plenty of opportunities to realize Superman wasn't a bad guy before that moment, which is what make it seem so dumb. If he hadn't had had all those opportunities, and the audience had a better understanding of his skewed perception of Superman, then the scene would have worked better. IMHO.
It's a scene that could have worked in more capable hands. I'm not going to sit here and pretend it's good as is.
>>84206867
You honestly cant believe Clark said Martha for Bruce's benifit. It was to save his mother, his human mother.
Bruce spent the whole novie dehumanizing Superman. Hes the outsider, the force no one can control.
Supes understands this so even in his last breath, he wants someone else to do whay he couldnt and its to save his mother.
He said "Martha" to give her an identity. Personification because just saying mom wouldnt have work. Why would Batman give a shit about his alien parents.
Martha is a human's name. This so happens to be the name of Bruce's mother. Who is shown as just as important to Bruce as Clark and his mother.
Bruce stops because he doesnt expect thus name this word to come out his mouth. And it helps him realize hes no betyer than Chill was. Gunning down a man.
>watching fight scene
>climactic turning point
>oh shit our mothers have the same name
>out of literally thousands of names they could have had and they were exactly the same
>oh
look i understand the point of the scene, i really do. it's just that having supes say 'martha' and it being a major plot point feels way too 'wrong' in a personally autistic sense
consider how naturally they could have pulled it off:
>S: "My mother is dying fambam."
>S: "Notice how i didn't say her name"
>B: oh shit this guy is a normal guy and im about to be the murderer this time around
it has the same effect
>>84207023
Just showing Supes was raised by human parents would have garnered enough sympathy, as well as it being more subtle.
>>84210156
What's your point?
>>84213451
Stay ignorant.
>Because he knows that people want Superman dead.
What? But he isn't in hiding. He's still out in the open as SUPERMAN. Batman is a great detective in this movie, he just isn't a god who read the script of the previous movie, like you want him to be.
>And Batman does no investigating about this whatsoever.
You really want Batman to investigate every single newspaper that writes positively about Superman? How retarded are you?
>What? Read this again and tell me it's not retarded.
Watch the Knightmare sequence again. That's where I got my proof.
>Which doesn't change Batman's argument. Why the fuck does Batman of all people think that good people can't turn bad?
Yes it does. It shows that there isn't even a 1% chance of Superman going bad.
Just kill yourself. You know I'm right but you still persist. You're going to keep lying because you know you're wrong.
>>84213579
Batman already knew Superman had parents. In your version of how things would happen, Batman kills Superman.
>>84207171
if that's what they're going for, Superman should've just said mom, not "Martha".
>>84213763
>Stay ignorant.
A movie's job is to convey all the information it needs to. A failure to do so is a failure on the movie's part, not the audience's.
>Batman is a great detective in this movie
Nope.
>You really want Batman to investigate every single newspaper that writes positively about Superman?
Maybe the one that he SPECIFICALLY points out does a lot of them?
>Watch the Knightmare sequence again. That's where I got my proof.
Your proof is retarded. So if literally anyone else killed Lois he'd be okay? Are you serious?
>Yes it does. It shows that there isn't even a 1% chance of Superman going bad.
No, it doesn't. Alfred even says good men turn cruel.
>You know I'm right but you still persist.
Nice projection, idiot. Keep trying to defend this unsalvageable movie.
>>84206867
I liked it. People who hate it only look at the surface. "Oh he's giving up because their moms have the same name!"
But its more than that. Bruce has a spear at Clark's throat ready to kill him in cold blood, and the Martha sequence just brings him back to reality.
Bruce has been so caught up in his paranoia & his fear that he's lost sight of himself. That's his whole arc in BvS.
>>84208527
It's a fucking turn of phrase, you autist.
>>84213579
>S: "Notice how i didn't say her name"
>it has the same effect
Yeah, but the whole point was to make the connection between their mothers. The scene's not just about realizing the human side of Superman, but also Bruce reflecting his own past and his mother's death.
You seem to be looking for the most practical solution, but those are rarely chosen in fiction. You can cut corners all you want in real life, but in movies people need to be given some context and something to believe in.
>>84213923
>A movie's job is to convey all the information it needs to.
The information necessary for the plot is knowing that Lex has access to information. The HOW is extra.
Prove that Batman isn't a great detective. He is a detective through his investigations on the Russian and the White Portuguese.
>Maybe the one that he SPECIFICALLY points out does a lot of them?
You mean all of them? Look at Wally's clippings.
>Your proof is retarded. So if literally anyone else killed Lois he'd be okay?
Yes. Prove that he wouldn't using evidence from the movie.
>No, it doesn't.
Prove it.
>unsalvageable movie.
It was a great movie. Prove that it isn't.
>>84214010
>Yeah, but the whole point was to make the connection between their mothers.
Connect their mothers through something meaningful, not just the fact that they both happen to have the same name. That's so superficial it's stupid.
>You can cut corners all you want in real life, but in movies people need to be given some context and something to believe in.
"Just turn your brain off bro."
>>84214028
>The information necessary for the plot is knowing that Lex has access to information.
And Batman the billionaire doesn't?
>Prove that Batman isn't a great detective.
He knows basically nothing about Superman.
>You mean all of them? Look at Wally's clippings.
And he doesn't do ANY investigation. Think about how many times someone went after Peter Parker for being the guy that takes pictures of Spider-Man.
>Yes. Prove that he wouldn't using evidence from the movie.
The onus is on you, buddy. You're the one asserting it's specifically Batman and not anyone else.
>Prove it.
The onus is on you. You can't prove a negative.
>It was a great movie. Prove that it isn't.
>LITERALLY asking THREE TIMES to prove a negative
BvS fans, everyone.
>>84214010
>The scene's not just about realizing the human side of Superman, but also Bruce reflecting his own past and his mother's death.
All of the people Batman has killed have mothers. KG Beast had a mother.
Having emotional trauma over your parents doesn't cross over to forgiving people you think are monsters (Superman). Batman never even comes to terms to the destruction Superman caused that killed many of his employees and other innocents.
It's hack writing.
>>84214041
The way I saw it was
>Bruce's mom died
>Bruce probably would do anything so he could change that, or that he could save his parents from dying, maybe he even blames himself for their deaths like in some comics
>Superman's mom is about to die, and in a way, Bruce has the chance to save ''his'' mother through Superman's mom. He has the chance to make a difference, to make the choice, he couldn't make before
And as we see, Batman immediately insists, that he will save Martha himself, while Superman does the other thing. Batman really feels the connection, not necessarily with Superman's mom, but with his own mom through her. I don't know if this makes any sense to you, but this is how I understood the situation.
I liked the moment afterwards when he says; "I'm making you a promise, Martha won't die tonight."
That was a nice moment between Batman and Superman.
>>84214224
Yes. I understood that too. The problem is that the connection is established through something as superficial as a name. According to the movie, if Superman's mom had been named Betty, Batman would've just stabbed him right in the heart.
>>84206970
This. Those are the same ppl saying WHYD THEY EBEN FIGHT DAT WAS DUMB.
>>84214303
People know why they fought. It was because Batman was tricked and Superman was blackmailed.
>>84214108
>And Batman the billionaire doesn't?
Yeah.
>He knows basically nothing about Superman.
He knows a lot about Superman, basically everything except "he has a secret identity."
>And he doesn't do ANY investigation. Think about how many times someone went after Peter Parker for being the guy that takes pictures of Spider-Man.
There's a difference between having a monopoly on information and having information that is readily available. What separates the Daily Planet from any other news organization?
>The onus is on you
>doesn't know how burden of proof works
>I used the word "not" in my argument which means I don't have to prove it anymore!
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof
"No, BvS is not a bad movie." Now you have the burden of proof! Easy, right?
Gee, BvS haters are some of the most retarded people on Earth. Either use evidence, or go home.
>>84213264
your taste is horrible
>>84214254
The name, yes, and also the fact that she was in danger. The whole situation was in essence very similar to Bruce's past.
>an innocent dying mother
>a loving son being helpless against a bigger force, and unable to do anything
Except now, Batman has the chance to make things right, and he does, and in sense gets his closure.
>>84214325
A lot of retarded casuals think it was dumb they fought in the first place. Like they don't think they should have fought at all despite the fact that Supes and Bats almost always fight when they first meet.
>>84214359
>Yeah.
What a shitty detective.
>He knows a lot about Superman, basically everything except "he has a secret identity."
What a shitty detective.
>There's a difference between having a monopoly on information and having information that is readily available. What separates the Daily Planet from any other news organization?
The point is that Batman doesn't even go to ANY news outlets talking about Superman. He doesn't make the effort to find out more about Superman.
>"No, BvS is not a bad movie." Now you have the burden of proof! Easy, right?
Nah, the onus is still on you. You made the claim BvS is good. You prove it.
>mfw /co/ is more triggered by the name Martha than Batman is
Could you find something more innocuous to complain about?
>>84214393
The problem is that they weren't having the "first time meeting" fight. They were having the Dark Knight Returns fight. But in DKR, they've known each other for decades, so it doesn't fit their first meeting.
>>84214372
But it was really just the name that got Batman to stop. If Superman had yelled out "SALLYYYYY" he'd have died.
>>84213924
dude, it's not that the ideas aren't good, you can make it sound super deep and relevant to the character, as people try to do, to support this mediocre as fuck movie.
it's that the entire movie was executed poorly. the deepness and connections are valid but idk if it was the script or the direction maybe the editing ended up being flat as fuck.
i like to point out superman "died" twice on screen and both times the audience didn't give a fuck. batman was cool, but superman was shat on as a character. lex was awful. and i love the WW costume but the actress was shit at emoting.
>>84214413
>Batman should be omniscient
Nice meme!
Kill yourself for wanting a bad character.
>Nah, the onus is still on you. You made the claim BvS is good. You prove it.
Nope, my claim is "No, BvS is not a bad movie" now. You have to disprove it because that's how burden of proof works right? No you idiot, it was to show you that the way you think burden of proof works is WRONG. Prove your previous arguments using evidence, or they are conceded as wrong. Give up, you've lost. This is what happens when you have an opinion based on lies.
>>84214439
No they werent you brain dead retard. It was the first time meeting fight. Batman was afraid of what Superman could do. Superman didn't like how Batman conducts himself. It was ideologies clashing.
TDKR fight is Batman is pissed Superman is the governments lackey and Superman is obeying the government telling him to take down Batman.
Jesus Christ you are the exact type of person I am talking about who knows nothing but bitches and complains and pretends to.
>>84214439
They weren't having a DKR fight either. Their fight in DKR came under completely different circumstances. Just because Batman was wearing a suit of armor doesn't make them similar.
>>84214439
I'd personally think, it's more logical and probable to fight before actually getting to know someone. If you solely rely on presumptions, it's easy to hate people, but when you know them and have the context to their actions, you tend to cut them some slack.
>>84214486
>being a detective is omniscience
hurr
>Nope, my claim is "No, BvS is not a bad movie" now.
Which is simply the double negative of BvS being a good movie, a claim that is unfounded. Sorry, you lose.
>>84214488
>>84214492
No, it was DKR, or at least Snyder's retard baby version. It wasn't them feeling each other out or being cautious, it was the big match to the death.
>>84214521
Prove how Batman would know Superman has a secret identity. No one has ever shown me even a hint of reason why he should.
Read the rest of the post. That "argument" is facetious. But obviously you're too retarded to see that, if a simple movie confused you.
>>84214552
>point out reasons why it was the first meeting fight
>nuh uh nope I say it wasnt
Jesus dude please just off yourself
>>84206867
I saw it as Batman was legit crazy throughout the movie. Having nightmares about the future and killing people to protect the world from these delusions he was having. Hearing his mom's name didn't suddenly make him realize all of this was crazy, it just made him sperg out and think him and Superman were the same and somehow friends, despite fighting nonstop throughout the movie. Batman is Joker levels of crazy, but he focuses it all on criminals so people just let him be.
>>84214557
>Prove how Batman would know Superman has a secret identity.
Because he himself has one. Secret identities aren't an unheard of thing in this universe.
>Read the rest of the post. That "argument" is facetious.
Don't use facetious when you don't know what it means.
>But obviously you're too retarded to see that, if a simple movie confused you.
It didn't confuse me at all. I know exactly why and how it was shit. You're grasping at straws. You lose.
>>84214459
I don't understand why you're belittling the effect of Martha's name. Why isn't batman allowed to make the connection through her name? Of course it doesn't have the same emotional punch for you, because your mom's not Martha who died when you were a kid.
And again, it's the name and the circumstances combined that make Batman click.
>>84214602
Ending a post with "you lose" lets us all know how handicapped you are
>>84214570
And I pointed out why it was the DKR fight. Name a comics first time meeting fight between Batman and Superman that is like the BvS fight.
>>84214612
>Why isn't batman allowed to make the connection through her name?
Because it's incredibly superficial and a massive coincidence. The connection isn't through their mothers' kindness or love; it's through the fact that they both happened to have a generic name.
>And again, it's the name and the circumstances combined that make Batman click.
No, it's just the name. Superman doesn't yell out MARTHAAAA, MY MOOOOOM, he just yells out MARTHAAAAA, which causes Batman to hesitate. Batman wouldn't have hesitated if he'd blurted out JESSICAAAAAA.
>>84214620
Doesn't change the fact that you lost.
>>84214552
Their fight in DKR wasn't a fight to the death. What the fuck are you talking about? Bruce went into that fight knowing he was going to lose, which is why he gave himself a heart attack and faked his death. Superman never had any intentions of killing him either.
Have you ever actually read The Dark Knight Returns?
>>84214602
>Because he himself has one. Secret identities aren't an unheard of thing in this universe.
Batman wears a mask. Superman doesn't.
>Don't use facetious when you don't know what it means
You clearly don't know what it means. The "argument" I used WAS facetious. The purpose was to show you how burden of proof works. But you STILL don't get it.
You haven't substantiated ANY of your points, while I have. But keep trying, kiddo.
>>84214602
>You lose.
Are you 15?
>>84214624
I already gave multiple reasons. They are fighting over ideologies.
In TDKR they are fighting over the government. Go read it so you have any idea what you are talking about.
>>84214710
>Batman wears a mask. Superman doesn't.
Reaching. An alien hiding out among humans isn't exactly a stretch, you know.
>You haven't substantiated ANY of your points, while I have. But keep trying, kiddo.
Wrong.
>kiddo
I bet you're still in college.
>>84214735
>They are fighting over ideologies.
No they're not. They're both vigilantes who kill people when they deem it necessary. They're fighting because Batman was tricked and Superman was blackmailed.
>In TDKR they are fighting over the government.
Are you seriously suggesting that is not inextricably entwined with their ideologies?
>>84214612
No, he begs Batman to ''Not let him kill Martha'', which clearly confuses and angers the shit out of Batman. It doesn't make him immediately drop the spear, but when Lois finally rushes to save Supes from under Batman boot, Bruce has his final struggle with himself, still confused and torn, but decides to throw the spear away while yelling in frustration.
>>84214802
Shit, I answered to myself, anyway, it's for (you) >>84214679
>>84214777
>They're both vigilantes who kill people when they deem it necessary.
Oh I see what kind of idiot I am talking to. Carry on.
>>84207072
that was supposed to be the moment bruce realises he's the bad guy. a good man dying at his feet with his last words being martha was supposed to be bruce realising just how far he's fallen
>>84214679
Look,i get where you're coming from, I totally do, but I just think that you're over-simplifying the situation and not taking certain things into consideration.
If you've watched the scene, you can see how Bruce gets almost offended by Superman talking about Martha. I got the feeling that Batman thought that Superman was trying to get under his skin by using his dead mother. It was like an one last insult, which drives Batman into confusion and anger. You make it seem like, that only by yelling Martha's name Supes calmed Batman down, no, that's not how it went at all. There was more dialogue to it, and it made Batman even more angry at first.
>>84212975
Are you forgetting the galla? Clark only stopped trailing Bruce to save the girl in Mexico. He would have to wonder what that whole deal was about, and possibly look up Bruce Wayne a bit afterward. His mask all fallen off, and totally Bruce Wayne, you don't think Clark would find a spark of inspiration to pull that off?
It's not that much of a trick to see that; it doesn't really make it better or worse. People seem to think that this movie isn't just sensational. Roll with it and it's great. Fight the wave and yea, it's pretty harsh.
>>84215016
Similar to how Batman says "Ma Kent" in Brave and the Bold?
https://youtube.com/watch?v=vTGL-j-nKC8
>>84215066
Well, not quite. In BvS Batman doesn't know what Superman means exactly, because he doesn't know his talking about his own mother.
That's why he yells ''Why did you say that name?'', because he doesn't understand, and it takes Lois to come to the scene to explain the situation. and even after that Batman is left torn, before throwing the spear away.
>>84206867
I liked it. It was pretty intense the first time I saw it. I was like "OH SHIT" when I realised what was going on.
One retarded friend of mine turned to me looking startled and asked "Shit, are they brothers?"
>>84215444
lol
That was the whole reason for making all the Martha stuff blatant earlier, yet it still wasn't enough. But it's funny because my mother asked "oh, so they're mothers have the same name?" because she understood it. She doesn't even know anything about the characters.
Also you just reminded me of the "we're brothers, Jon" moment from Fist of the borf star.
>>84215507
I actually had a lot of hilarious moments watching BvS, I went three times with different people and each time something cool happened.
>>84215569
STORIES
NOW
I feed off of good stories. Give me your energy.
>>84215706
First time watching it the audience applauded at the end, nothing too special but it let me focus on the film, which is what I wanted.
Second time, my friend asked if Batman and Superman were brothers after the martha scene.
Third time, a 6 or 7 year old girl was getting bored as shit while Bat and Supes were fighting but when Wonder Woman showed up she started clapping, it was cute as hell.
That time I was with another friend that in the scene where Lex pulls out Zod's body to create Doomsday she asked if Zod was the Hulk.
