Why do western cartoons look like garbage now compared to the 90s-00s?
>>83024684
Because the industry focuses on making animation cheaper, not better.
>>83024684
Man X-men was the tighest kid when I was a kid
You used to be able to make a profit based on just airing the show and selling toys. Now barely anyone watches TV through a provider and toys don't sell to kids. They can't afford well-animated shows safely, and they don't want to take risks considering that it's easier to play to rabid fanbases that love shows that cost $5 to animate because the studio uses a bootleg version of Flash off a Window Vista computer.
>>83024684
Not animated by the japs anymore.
Theyre not
>>83025635
Shows like AT and SU are animated by hand in Korea (someone correct me if I'm wrong). MLP is actually Flash, but even its animation is partially done in the Philippines. And regardless of the lol-tier quality of modern shows, they still cost an arm and a leg per episode.
>>83024684
>Western
because most of 90's cartoons wasnt even made by americans
plus CalArts
Why don't we just annex Japan and make them do our cartoons as well?
>>83024868
rewatching the old X-Men and Spider-Man cartoons there is a lot of wonky and cheap animation that I didn't even notice as a kid but is distracting as an adult
>People think anime has good animation
The fuck?
>>83024684
Nostalgia
>>83025978
>People think movies have good filmography
Stop being a deliberately dense fuck, it's a medium. And there are always people who will push any media to their boundaries.
>>83025951
>invading a sovereign nation for anime
Finally, America is getting it's priorities straight.
>>83024684
X-Men was a great series but when talking about great animation it's not exactly what I'd pick. The advances that have happened since then are amazing when applied properly rather than just cheaping out.
>>83026042
No. Shitty anime is shit animation. Horrible frame rates galore. That is the definition of bad animation.
A still frame with a mouth flap isn't good animation
>>83025978
Anime occasionally has good animation. The most prominent recent example being a couple fights in OPM. Most of it is really bad though.
>>83025978
But it does fampai, at least anime with high enough budget.
>>83026124
>High budget
Well yeah that is my point.
>>83026101
Framerate does not determine animation quality. I could for example make 60 fps animation, and it would look like complete shit.
>A still frame with a mouth flap isn't good animation
This is a myth, and not what anime is actually like.
The reality is that anime has the best hand-drawn animation you'll find anywhere. If that still isn't good enough then I guess hand-drawn animation just isn't for you.
>>83026115
>>83026101
>>83026160
Compared to western cartoons anime has more and better animation, though. Even peak Disney and WB wasn't as good, it just had unlimited budget to animate everything in 1s so it could looks smooth. Anime has used far more complex 2D animation techniques even with a fraction of the budget the west has had in their Golden Era.
>>83026173
>Myth
Make a fucking flip book. The more pages with more detail of move to move from page to page of said object makes it more life like. That is animation.
You also don't explain what good animation is. Just say that Muh superior island nation is better!
Anime does NOT have good animation for their generic TV shows. Family guy has better animation for christ's sake. They at least animate their mouths
>>83026246
Weeb
>>83026101
>shitty anime has shit animation
>therefore anime isn't good animation
>twilight is bad writing
>therefore novels aren't good writing
>meet the spartans has bad cinematography
>therefore movies don't have good cinematography
>my father's burnt-as-fuck steaks aren't fine dining
>therefore bbq food isn't good
Yeah you're a complete chucklefuck.
>>83026330
Just accept the truth.
>>83026246
>Keyframe is good animation
Nigga what?
You still don't tell me WHY it has better animation
>>83026246
>Even peak Disney and WB wasn't as good
Eh western cartoons are professionally animated for an entire movie/episode
Meanwhile anime have 'sakuga' moments for like 5-15 seconds
In like 3 out of 12 episodes pers season
>>83026403
You keep cherry picking sakuga scenes from action anime
>>83026302
Again, framerate does not determine animation quality. Again, I could make 60 fps animation and it would look like shit. You need to be good at drawing and portraying movement to make good animation.
>You also don't explain what good animation is.
Quality of the character design, realism of movement, complexity of movement, camera work, lighting and shading.
>Anime does NOT have good animation for their generic TV shows. Family guy has better animation for christ's sake. They at least animate their mouths
And here we once again see the absolutely mind-boggling, nonsensical obsession with mouth movements that many fans of Western animation have.
Family Guy is better than this because the mouths are articulated:
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22678
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/16157/
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/20710/
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22293/
>>83026386
Not what I said dipshit. I said it's bad animation and therefore outsourcing western cartoons to Japan is redundant
>>83026403
>Shitty CGI for the past part
>Only mid body and up shots while running
>He thinks this is a good example
>>83026173
>>83026246
If you honestly believe this then you don't know shit about animation.
Fluid animation is objectively better. It's like saying that a slideshow of renaissance paintings has good animation because the paintings are good. Animation is motion, and stiffer motion is objectively inferior to fluid motion.
>>83026413
Because the creators literally devote their lives to their shit and study it intensely to learn how to create more fluid animation and develop new techniques while refining older ones through the studio apprenticeships they tend to go through
Literally nobody in the world cares more about their animation quality than obsessed weeb nips who are allowed the leeway to chase their passions. The sakuga and animation discussions I've seen in interviews with creators, at cons, on blogs and forums are all literally leaps and bounds ahead of the vast majority of discussion I've seen regarding western animation.
When allowed to do so by budget or time constraints, they actually give the most shits of all and it shows.
>>83024684
Is this a joke? X-men was animated like shit. That show sucks. It and the old Spider-Man don't hold up like Batman.
>>83026124
Hell, even low budget shit can look decent from time to time.
>>83026470
>Quality of the character design, realism of movement, complexity of movement, camera work, lighting and shading.
Only 2 of those are movement. Camera work, lighting and character design have nothing to do with how fluid the actual movement is.
OPM > everything else
>>83026470
>You need to be good at drawing
Holy fucking shit you do realize that detail does NOT equal fucking animation right?
>Quality of the character design
See previous statement
A pretty design is by DEFINITION not animation. Animation is SOLEY the illusion of movement.
>Wanting characters to have realistic mouth movements is nonsensical
>He defends mouth flaps while saying animation is good because of detail
Holy shit stop posting
>>83026246
>Even peak Disney and WB wasn't as good
Dude, I appreciate Japanese animation but to dismiss the best of western animation on the grounds of merely having "unlimited budget" is extremely shallow. There are many great western animators out there and have done things that can rival whatever the likes of Inoue or Okiura have put out. The difference is that they have different approaches to their work.
>>83026472
Generalising an entire industry as shit due to their shittiest examples is the most basic of baits, anon.
>>83026413
>>83026476
By your stupid logic of more individual frames = better animation, even a stick figure wobbling its hands at 60 frames per second has better animation than something like this.
>>83026442
>Eh western cartoons are professionally animated for an entire movie/episode
Disney movies perhaps, but not TV regular shows, not even close.
And that was only possible thanks to the high budgets they worked with. There's little to no complexity in the animation, the shot composition and simple 1 point perspective and static frames they often used shows the lack of actual skill they had.
>>83026575
Again, you're confusing animation for still frames. It's okay if you like stiffer animation in exchange for more detailed frames, but saying that stiffer animation is better because the individual frames are prettier is objectively wrong. If you got a job at disney as an animator and talked about how fluidity in animation doesn't matter everyone would laugh at you for not knowing shit about animation and you'd be fired for being a retarded faggot.
>>83026575
It's not "my logic" it's the fucking definition of animation
More frames does mean more fluidity just like 4K is more realistic than fucking 480p
That is another shit example. You need to take an animation class
>One point perspective and static frames
Yes while the characters actually move properly without clunky bullshit
>>83026691
>>83026692
I'm not saying fluidity doesn't matter. Japan could make anime in 1s if they had a fraction of the budget Disney had. What I'm saying is that amount of individual frames != skill and complexity of animation. I find something like this more impressive than this for example http://webneel.com/image/misc/2-tradional-animation-disney.gif
>>83026413
>Keyframe is good animation
This is keyframe animation:
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5353
This is finished animation:
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5352
>>83026442
>Meanwhile anime have 'sakuga' moments for like 5-15 seconds. In like 3 out of 12 episodes pers season
Exaggeration, and "sakuga" just means animation that someone considers to be particularly good. An absence of "sakuga" animation doesn't mean the absence of animation.
>>83026476
I do know shit about animation and that's exactly why I'm telling you that framerate does not equal quality. Once again: I could make 60 fps animation, and it would look like shit since I can't draw let alone animate. But according to you it would be better than anything that's ever been produced in either Japan or the West.
There is nothing difficult at all about making a lot of drawings, it just takes time. Anyone can do it. But not everyone can draw well and portray complex movements realistically (and do it fast enough to meet deadlines). That takes skill.
>>83026518
Your character design determines what you are animating. The more complex it is, the more difficult and time-consuming it is to make the drawings and produce good animation. For example:
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/16157/
Her outfit consists of four separately moving parts and her bag which also has a part attached to it. Her clothes are also physically separate from her body, not just painted on. All of this has to be accounted for in the animation, and it all has to be shaded too. If they had instead made something like Finn from AT, it would have been completely different.
"Shooting" a scene from the side (very often done in American animation) is a lot easier than having the camera spin around the character, swoop through the scene or be at an odd angle like close to the ground and looking up. Not everyone can animate like that. It takes skill.
>>83026555
Animation is a series of drawings. Even Disney animation, as fluid as it looks, is just a series of drawings made one by one.
>Wanting characters to have realistic mouth movements is nonsensical
Holding it up as this all-important feature that determines whether something is good animation or not is indeed nonsensical.
>He defends mouth flaps while saying animation is good because of detail
It's good because of a lot of things.
>>83026508
Did this ever get picked up for another season or was it a one time thing?
>>83026915
sadly only a one time thing which is odd given that it wasn't simply called "Marvel Disk Wars" but "Marvel Disk Wars: The Avengers", like they actually expected that a second series would follow.
Oh great a nostalgiafag fanwank thread turned into weeb fanwank thread
>>83025978
>>83026101
>UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU I'M COMPLETELY FUCKING RETARDED HURRRR DURRRR
>>83026124
>>83025978
>>83026160
Even high budgeted anime is cheaper than western animation.
>>83026827
Why do you insist that animation has anything to do with how detailed a frame is? You clearly don't know what you're talking about. Fluid movement is better animation than stiffer movement. I bet you think OPM has better animation than Flesicher Superman.
> the more difficult and time-consuming it is
Something being more difficult to do does not automatically make it better.
>>83026101
What about the non-shit anime?
Daily reminder each episode of Family Guy is 2 million dollars.
Korra in comparison was 1 million dollars an episode and still overpriced.
>>83024684
Because now they outsource them to Canada, instead of Korea.
>>83026246
>. Even peak Disney
Now you fucked up.
>>83027093
The more detail there is, the more time it takes to draw and the more difficult it is to keep everything straight. Like in that example, her outfit is physically separate from her body and has four separate moving parts, and she has a bag which has a strap attached to it (and then there's her hair). The animator had to account for and draw all of that. If he had instead animated Finn, it would have been way easier and faster.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rR1cMPnMcaY
^ Here, we have very detailed characters who are engaged in very complicated swordfighting while the camera is doing all sorts of complicated things and changing angles all the time. If the characters were basic shapes and the scene was shot from the side, it would be inferior animation even if it was 24 or 30 or 60 fps. It would take much less skill to create and it would look worse.
Another thing that an animator has to account for in a scene like that is keeping everything consistent from shot to shot and maintaining continuity.
>>83027093
I'm guessing you consider this the best piece of animation ever made since it's done in 60 frames per second. Good to know I don't have to take you seriously anymore.
>>83027213
Disney's animation was not as advanced as anime. It was mainly just very, very smooth.
>>83027388
Nice strawman
>>83027551
The argument was that framerate = animation quality.
>>83027317
Took my breath away.
>>83025017
>the tightest kid
Why don't you have a seat, right over there?
>>83027155
>Daily reminder each episode of Family Guy is 2 million dollars.
Wait, what? Whaaaaaaaaat?
>>83026101
Watch Akira and then kiss my fucking ass.
>>83026518
>Only 2 of those are movement. Camera work, lighting and character design have nothing to do with how fluid the actual movement is.
Actually, character design is incredibly important for animation. A poorly designed character can be hard to animated, require more time, or not be real when moving in a faux 3d space.
>ITT weebs act like a minute of fluid, complex animation makes up for 10 episodes of scrolling static images and flapping mouths
>>83032360
70% is probably VA
Who gives a shit about cartoons, western or otherwise?
Are you all virgins?
>>83025978
>What is sakuga?
>What is Akira?
>>83026101
Are you shitposting?
>>83027080
Because japanese animators work under almost slavery conditions.
Yet Japan sometimes outsource animations to China and South Korea, which pay even less to their animators.
>>83026442
>20 cartoons p/season in the US
vs.
>200+ p/season in Japan
It's a huge difference, but overall, at least animators can get work over there. That being said it's not as if American tv animation is perfect here. There are still a lot of mistakes and overall directorial choices that are really just boring or lacking inspiration even for the small budget that they have.
It's the equivalent of criticizing the CG animation scenes in Game of Thrones to a CG movie from Disney/Pixar. Both have very, very different budgets. More money always pumps up the quality of anything.
>it's a "/co/ tries to talk about anime" episode
>>83026465
You keep cherry picking non-sakuga scenes.
>>83026518
There's more to creating a tv animation than just movement. There's a lot to consider. You are making a tv show and there are things to be expected. Camera work, lighting, and character design are big factors into it. Budget or lack there of will play a big factor into it, but there are ways to get around it. You just have to be really creative about it.
>>83026557
Wasn't there some Disney animator that said that Akira is the pinnacle of animation? As much as I appreciate Disney I haven't seen one movie from them yet that even looks anything like Akira.
>>83026805
Part of me kinda wishes you had posted something like this instead: https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/22633/animated-character_acting-hair-hyouka-ryouhei_muta
Since it's kinda in the same vein?
I personally think TV Nip animation is a bit stiff compared to western animation, but it can look really good with a bigger budget when it's like a movie or something.
Nip animation made in the early 2000's to maybe around 06-07 always bugged me because of how saturated the color was. That and we've never gotten more than 2 layers of colored shading since they started doing digital.
That all said and done, I'm kind of sad that stuff like Serial Experiments Lain, Ghost in the Shell, Akira, and Neon Genesis Evangelion are more or less some of my favorite examples of how animation can be for mature audiences and how Western "adult animation" rarely explores that area
cartoons have more animation and production value nowadays along with writers who really want to work on the show. particularly weird to include the 00's, it's not like we were better off with FOP's complete lack of character animation.
>>83026246
>>83026403
>>83026470
western animation doesn't try to focus on boring real life actions like people running so it's not a fair comparison.
>>83027551
That is what was being argued the entire time though. The more frames = better more fluid animation. Posting an example of what you were talking about isn't strawmanning.
>>83033622
>I personally think TV Nip animation is a bit stiff compared to western animation
>Studio Trigger
>stiff animation
Ok.
>>83033704
I was thinking of Madhouse in particular actually
Madhouse looks really cool sometimes with their lighting, but they're often stiffer than a corpse and go off model here and there
Why are we comparing about budget sizes anyway? Theyre not always used in the same way.
>>83033802
I always thought anime sometimes goes off model because they still use hand drawn animation whereas western cartoons mostly use puppeteering software and have assets saved to reuse like the head shape or limbs, etc.
>>83025951
It's kind of happening. More and more popular anime studios are getting work on western shows again. But it's still costly so it's only done for big shows.
Big shows
Big... os
BIG O
WHERE IS MY SEASON 3 CARTOON NETWORK YOU COWARDLY FUCKS
>>83025930
Are there literally any modern cartoons animated in America?
>>83034368
Behold
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Fxls1XrcJc
>>83024684
I don't care as much as animation as I care about content.
I remember the aftenoons watching TV, G.I Joe, Transformers, Galaxy Rangers, Thundercats, Bionic six, Motherfucking COPS, there was also the Count Duckula sort of thing but most of it was badass action cartoons with cool adventures.
Now everything I see on cartoon channels are wacky characters having wacky lives.
I miss so much action cartoons. And when we have one like Beware the Bat or Young Justice league they get shit treatment.
I want supersquads, cyborg mutant ninjas and space cops back.
>>83034594
>Galaxy Rangers
That show was a weird kind of special where one episode might have god tier writing but then the next would be a huge box of disappointing stupid.
I still love it. One Million Emotions is one of the best episodes of any action cartoon ever.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZEZLnqKGWg
>>83035042
That's the one with the doll, right?
25+ years and I still remember that episode together with the one Gooseman fighting his rival "totally not wolverine"
>>83035109
>Police officers could never be the heroes in an American children's cartoon now.
Kinda sad.
>>83035149
Those were both on the same VHS tape.
But, yes, that was the one with the doll. Such a good fucking episode.
I went back and re-watched the series a year or so ago and was disappointed most of it wasn't as good as the few episodes I remember. I always liked the first Scarecrow episode too.
>>83035157
Neither soldiers
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YrSpaaDOm0
>>83035326
Count the times it says "Freedom"
>>83025893
MLP - for flash, for a little girl's show, the animation is actually pretty good.
>>83035326
I dunno. Most kids of a decent view of soldiers. I guess getting modern creatives to glorify fighting International terrorist might be a bit hard, but it's more doable then police.
Watch kids play, especially colored children: police are the bad guys to them.
>All the green quotes.
All the green quotes.
>>83026124
>Not full flashy fight
Anime animation it's getting better!
>>83027093
I guess you DESPISE smear frames because they reduce the number of frames in an animation, and you think they look like shit when you pause on them.
>>83027021
>>83032714
Don't complain when you get your ass beat.
>>83032714
As always, this is a myth and not what anime is actually like.
>>83033130
American productions usually outsource ALL animation to Korea, have considerably higher episode budgets than anime, and still have only a fraction of the quality.
>>83033622
Digital animation makes shading easier, not harder.
>>83033659
Anime doesn't "focus" on characters running, and there are characters running in American shows too.
>>83026124
Sauce? This looks watchable.
>>83038902
Sword of the Stranger.
>>83038733
>have considerably higher episode budgets than anime, and still have only a fraction of the quality.
Like you even know how Americans use their budgets. Protip: not everything goes into animating
>>83024684
Back then cartoon characters were shaped more realisticly but now animators can be more flexible with character designs.
The funniest thing is that most of these high budget animation still makes more money than your typical anime.
I love anime but some weebs are too deluded if they think every episode from the beginning to end is Sakuga. Those japs cheat on a lot of things save for kyoani. The actualy thing that happening is 95% shit still still frame animation and 5% good animation
>>83039294
I hate openings in anime they are always so long and spoil a fuckton of shit in the series, I love that American cartoon openings are very simple, catchy and short while not spoiling much.
>>83038733
>As always, this is a myth and not what anime is actually like.
It's hyperbole but it's pretty accurate, even a lot of highly regarded animes have large chunks of near static imagery. That doesn't make them inherently bad but animefags always bring up either 30 second clips that are the only examples of that level of animation in a show or full length movies with much higher budgets.
>>83039128
Not everything goes into animation in anime either. Perhaps Americans should just allocate their lavish budgets more wisely. Nobody else is going to do it for them.
>>83039294
If you define not cheating as having consistently 24, 12 or 8 FPS animation, then everyone outside of Disney feature movies (and similar movies) "cheats." But why should it be regarded as cheating? Where does it say that the Disney way is the only way?
And what American shows win in framerate, they lose in quality. There may be more drawings, but they look much worse. Anime could also reduce the quality of its drawings and have more frames, but they've chosen not to do that.
>The actualy thing that happening is 95% shit still still frame animation and 5% good animation
Again: this is a myth.
>>83039599
You think it's accurate because you've seen people repeat it many times so now you assume it has to be true. This is how misinformation spreads.
>animefags always bring up either 30 second clips that are the only examples of that level of animation in a show or full length movies with much higher budgets
American shows don't have those 30 second moments at all.
>>83040064
>Perhaps Americans should just allocate their lavish budgets more wisely.
For what reason? Even the shittiest western animation makes more money than the late night anime """""""""masterpiece""""""""
Animation is all about making money, sweeite
>>83039364
But i love openings, not every opening spoil things.
>>83040064
>You think it's accurate because you've seen people repeat it many times so now you assume it has to be true. This is how misinformation spreads.
It certainly isn't because I've watched anime. That would be silly.
Also note I never claimed that American animation was better or worse than anime animation, honestly most Western cartoons are shit right now but I don't spam Thief and the Cobbler or Prologue and pretend that that's in any way indicative of the average animation quality.
>>83039364
I don't think it's common for OPs to spoil anything.
OPs and EDs can be very cool on their own, and I often watch them like that. They also have the important purpose of advertising singles that serve as another source of revenue for the show.
>>83040132
If all you care about is ratings and not the production quality of the shows, then just keep doing what you're doing I guess.
>>83039294
>Those japs cheat on a lot of things save for kyoani. The actualy thing that happening is 95% shit still still frame animation and 5% good animation
Why does this have to be a bad thing?
Without going full on QUALITY, if you've only got a certain amount of money than what's the point of spending it on a scene that can do without it when you can save it for an action that would receive greater benefit from it?
>>83040132
>sweeite
I can tell how mad you are right now. lel
>>83040309
You mean you've watched some poorly animated daytime show that's not representative of the vast majority of anime (the usual suspects comprise somewhere between 5 and 10 shows that have been made over the course of almost three decades). Or you've allowed other people to affect your perceptions to the point where you don't even believe your own eyes.
>I don't spam Thief and the Cobbler or Prologue and pretend that that's in any way indicative of the average animation quality
People don't pretend that "sakuga" clips are indicative of average quality.
>>83039364
A good opening/ending song can ave a shit anime from obscurity
>>83040352
Budgets are all about how much money you can make money off it. You're saying westerners are wasteful with their budgets but in fact most of them make good profit out of shitty animation.
>>83040469
>You mean you've watched some poorly animated daytime show that's not representative of the vast majority of anime
I'm sure you've watched more anime than I have but if many of the most recommended and well known shows plus a handful of others make common use of these animation shortcuts it's a reasonable to assume that they are prevalent throughout the industry.
>that have been made over the course of almost three decades)
I don't know what that's supposed to mean, that you think I watched anime from a diverse spread of timeframes? I don't get how that would at all invalidate my opinion.
>>83040514
>We're getting views and shekels, so who cares about the quality
I guess this is one way of explaining why American animation is in such a sorry state and unlikely to ever improve.
>>83026173
>>83026470
>>83026827
>>83026887
>>83038733
>>83040064
>>83040469
>>83040640
God damn, I thought this AIDF shitposter would realize he got thrashed in this thread from last Monday:
https://desustorage.org/co/thread/82814041
>>83025978
>>83026101
>Both posts have 5+ replies shutting them down
I have never seen any fandom but anime fandom shit their pants this much over any criticism ever expressed about it and dogmatically shut it down at the same frequency Viacom takes down YouTube videos.
>>83040630
Making use of animation shortcuts is not the same thing as the fabled slideshow that anime supposedly is 90% of the time.
Animation shortcuts and artistic choice are also usually impossible to tell apart in anime. If a live action director shoots at scenery or shoots a dialogue scene by focusing on just the legs of the characters, nobody thinks anything of it. If an anime director does the same, he's accused of taking shortcuts. As if the sole purpose of animation was to have characters emoting.
>>83034351
GIVE ME ANOTHER FUCKING MECHA BATMAN
FUCK YOU ADULT SWIM
>>83035394
No, mlp is badly animated. Wakfu is the best example of flash being used for good.
>>83040723
I didn't get trashed though. And why are you even bringing up a week old thread? This isn't Reddit.
>I have never seen any fandom but anime fandom shit their pants this much over any criticism ever expressed about it and dogmatically shut it down at the same frequency Viacom takes down YouTube videos.
So what you're saying is that you're upset because you can't make incorrect claims about anime without having someone challenge them. You're also being very economical with the truth if you're trying to claim that /co/ doesn't get defensive over Western animation.
>>83040754
>Making use of animation shortcuts is not the same thing as the fabled slideshow that anime supposedly is 90% of the time.
That's what the "fabled slideshow" refers to, the really tacky animation shortcuts prevalent throughout the industry. It doesn't make it bad but posting 30 second clips with actual high quality animation and pretending like the rest of the show isn't animated on a significantly lower level is disingenuous
>>83040723
People correcting wrong opinions isn't the same as shitting their pants over 'critisism'
>>83024684
because you are wearing nostalgia goggles and cherry picking.
>It's a /co/ acting like they know anything about animation episode
I fucking hate this.
>>83040838
Opinions can't be correct.
I like anime but these deluded kimo-ota think that anime is the end all. Ever notice they only speicifically target daytime cartoons from Nick/CN and use the most neckbeard latenight anime.
Funny how they always ignore europe
>>83040838
>anime typically has very low standards of animation in exchange for more detailed stills
>NO GLORIOUS NIPPON ANIMATIONS IS GOAT, LOOK AT THIS CLIP FROM SWORD OF THE STRANGER FILTHY GAIJIN GO HOME
sure bud
>>83040834
No one is pretending the rest of the show isn't animated with the same standard as sakuga scenes. Same thing happens with American animation except they don't have any sakuga in the first place.
>>83040886
> /co/ acting like they know anything about animation episode
Neither do the anime troll t b h
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfjAbXrvkFw
SHOOOCK!!!
>>83040399
Or he's southern. They do that to everyone.
>>83040947
>Here is my calm and collected opinion
>I AM SILLYYY!!!
>>83040947
>more framerate = better animation
See >>83027388
>>83040972
Then why bother posting it? Everyone knows it's not indicative of the normal animation quality, it's an aberration, an outlier.
>>83040940
>Ever notice they only speicifically target daytime cartoons from Nick/CN and use the most neckbeard latenight anime.
Well show me some of those amazing European animations then.
>>83040132
>Animation is all about making money, sweeite
How is that working out?
>>83041109
To assblast people like you who think cartoons have better animation, why else? Just look at all the webms posted in this thread, all from anime, while no one has posted cartoon examples because none exist ;)
![Hidamari Sketch x Hoshimittsu - Ep03 (BD 1080p) [Kirakira] [BA178670].mkv_snapshot_12.32_[2015.11.05_03.36.19].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/e8K5ZQE.jpg "Hidamari Sketch x Hoshimittsu - Ep03 (BD 1080p) [Kirakira] [BA178670].mkv_snapshot_12.32_[2015.11.05_03.36.19].jpg")
>>83040834
There are countless ways of taking shortcuts and you don't even necessarily notice them, or can't tell if they're shortcuts or artistic choices.
For example, in Hidamari Sketch a character walking across a room is sometimes represented by pictures of feet appearing on the screen and accompanied by sound effects. Did they do that to save time or not? I don't know, but it is more interesting than watching a character walk across a room.
>posting 30 second clips with actual high quality animation and pretending like the rest of the show isn't animated on a significantly lower level is disingenuous
And who is doing that?
>>83040940
Everyone ignores Europe. The only show I see get brought up is Wakfu and only rarely. But it's not animated by hand as far as I know.
>these deluded kimo-ota
How would you know whether someone is a kimo-ota?
>>83040947
No, it doesn't have low standards of animation. It just has less drawings than American shows usually do.
>>83041109
>Then why bother posting it?
Depends on the context.
>>83041239
>For example, in Hidamari Sketch a character walking across a room is sometimes represented by pictures of feet appearing on the screen and accompanied by sound effects. Did they do that to save time or not? I don't know, but it is more interesting than watching a character walk across a room.
That's clearly at least some level an artistic choice, if there is some artistic meaning behind stationary heads and sidemouth I would be interested to hear about it
>>83041408
You act like cartoons don't have stationary heads, and they have no sidemouths because they usually just draw them pointing at the camera the lazy fucks.
>>83041343
>No, it doesn't have low standards of animation
I mean if you're into stationary images with minimal animation that's fine but it's still less animation
>Depends on the context.
what context would make sense? The only one I can think of is if someone said "no anime anywhere has good animation" which some do but usually it's a general statement about common occurrences.
>>83041509
Literally someone said that no anime anywhere had good animation, you even replied to those post that started the whole discussion, fucking retard >>83040723 >>83025978 >>83026101
>>83041239
Anything shaft does is done artistically. They do it in almost all their series, like Madoka.
>>83041408
>if there is some artistic meaning behind stationary heads and sidemouth I would be interested to hear about it
There is no artistic meaning and nobody said there is.
>>83041509
Having more animation doesn't mean having better animation. Literally anyone who can draw can make high framerate animation.
>what context would make sense? The only one I can think of is if someone said "no anime anywhere has good animation"
People say that often. In this thread someone said that animation in anime is worse than in American shows simply because it lacks articulated mouths.
>>83040940
Anime News Network posts weekly anime ratings charts, and the results are surprising:
http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2016-05-20/japan-animation-tv-ranking-may-9-15/.102339
Series like Sazae-san, Shin-chan, "Chibi Maruko-chan", Doraemon and etc.-- all of which are long-running episodic comedies, the type of show weeaboos bash US animation for being filled with-- are the most popular in Japan. The shows people like the AIDF shitposter repeatedly pull footage from as proof of anime being "superior" are all adult/otaku-targeted late-night anime.
They're cherrypicking just as much as the western fans supposedly are. Both sides are pulling the, "You're just not watching the right shows" shit.
>>83041408
>That's clearly at least some level an artistic choice,
Different Anon, but how can you draw a line between what is and isn't an "Artistic Choice". Animation's job isn't to accurately 1-to-1 replicate motion. We have film for that.
It's to create and expand upon the illusion of motion. It's to mold the illusion into something more. Something that isn't just seen but also felt.
Eastern or Western techniques don't matter (And frankly all industries are inspired and borrow massively from eachother so drawing lines in the sand is retarded to begin with). What matters is what they set out to do and if they achieve it. If it communicates what it's seeking to communicate, it's good animation. That's it.
>>83041576
Most new shows today are late night anime. The vast majority of the shows made after 2000 that anime fans talk about, watch and obsess over are late night anime.
Shows like Sazae-san, Chibi Maruko, Doraemon and Conan have been running for a very long time (Sazae-san is the longest running animated show in the world), and are not representative of most anime. They aren't even representative of most daytime anime.
If you want to cherry-pick high quality short length late night American shows then feel free to do so.
>>83041618
American and Japanese animation do have drastically different animation techniques.
>>83041576
>"You're just not watching the right shows" shit.
This can apply to anime fans since there are way more shows to pick from. Cartoons are literally what airs on CN and Nickelodeon and that's about it. There are no "right" western cartoons because every one of them is made either in Korea or by amateurs in Canada using puppetering software like Flash aka not real animation.
>>83035424
Kids aren't the problem, glorified soldiers, glorified cops, they would enjoy any of those.
It would be the soccer moms and sjw the ones spoiling it.
>>83025978
It's not like disney is making good animation 2d animation anymore
>>83041618
>If it communicates what it's seeking to communicate, it's good animation
I don't know if I can agree with that, you can communicate a message with very choppy, visually unappealing animation and I (and I think most people) would have a hard time calling that "good". While stationary talking heads isn't inherently "bad" (or limited to Japanese animation for that matter) putting more expression into the talking heads will almost always make better product. If all it does is pass on a message without enhancing it or doing something unique and interesting the animation is merely serviceable.
>>83041739
>American and Japanese animation do have drastically different animation techniques.
This, Japanese animation is for the most part hand drawn while American animation doesn't exist. See the difference? Vastly different animation techniques.
>>83041865
Quality character design, lighting, camera work, backgrounds, music and voice acting make up for a lack of animation.
Something that sets apart anime from American animation is a holistic approach to making animation where everything counts, not just the (amount of) animation.
>>83041866
>Japanese animation is for the most part hand drawn while American animation doesn't exis
Nice job twisting someones words.
*post cherrypicked example*
>>83041866
There are many different ways of doing hand-drawn animation, and America and Japan do it very differently. We would have hardly any threads like this if that wasn't the case.
The gold standard for American animation that everyone ought to aspire to is a Disney feature movie or short, which has a completely different approach to animation than anime.
>>83042294
I meant what I said.
>>83042081
>Quality character design, lighting, camera work, backgrounds, music and voice acting make up for a lack of animation.
It can but that doesn't make the animation good. Whether or not the finished product is good doesn't determine the animation quality just like the animation quality doesn't overide how the whole piece comes together.
>>83042383
>It can but that doesn't make the animation good.
I specifically said:
>make up for a lack of animation
I was talking about situations where there is not much animation.
>>83042383
>It can but that doesn't make the animation good.
Character animation doesn't exist in a void. The quality of an animated product is the sum of all it's parts.
A Charlie Brown Christmas is technically animated like absolute dogshit but it's still regarded as a quality classic.
>>83041866
Meanwhile, in Ameriland...
>>83042641
>Ok that looks good, send it to our Korean slaves to work on it.
>East v West shitflinging
Did I time travel back to 2006
>>83042570
I read your post, you (or the anon I replied to at least) said that any animation that conveyed the message was good animation, when that statement was challenged you brought up other non-animation aspects that can make up for lackluster animation. Even if the message gets communicated if most of the work is done by things not the animation the animation is probably not very good. You brought in things not animation when they weren't really relevant.
>>83042641
Storyboards don't have to look good, but these are so poorly drawn that I doubt the storyboarder is even capable of staging scenes more complicated than that.
>>83042786
It's just like I said:
>Something that sets apart anime from American animation is a holistic approach to making animation where everything counts, not just the (amount of) animation.
>>83042734
>>83042641
whats wrong with this? its not like its the final product
>>83042999
What bullshit is this?
Seriously?
I mean it's slightly better than teenager with a mini-van sized four-foot thick sword jumping miles into the air and destroying all the choppers in one swing...
But now Apache Helicopters are mowed down with bows and arrows?
Can we at least agree this is the best piece of American animation in at least a decade?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIZHUyVzx7A
>>83043180
memeshit doesn't count
Star Vs. looks pretty good for a traditionally animated cartoon.
>>83043004
Animators make their cuts based on the storyboards.
>>83043317
Pretty sure that's not how it works.
>>83034566
You made me remember. Why did you make me remember?
>>83043461
Then what are the storyboards used for on American productions?
>>83043461
That's exactly how it works.
http://imgur.com/SVK0W6q
>>83043582
>>83043587
Oh, I thought you mean getting paid.
>>83040996
Rogue a cute.
fcc
>>83041836
>Using an anime from Mirai Project.
The majority of anime is cheap shite which focuses its entire budget in the first couple and last episodes. Sometimes they finish up episodes with only a few days before airtime, so artists, animators etc are always rushed off their feet. It only looks good when it's re-done for BDs
>>83043711
Still remember that subliminal message in that one anime that said that animators are suffering or something.
>>83041576
you mean this Doraemon?
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/19756/animated-background_animation-doraemon-doraemon-20
This Shin chan?
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/15891/animated-artist_unknown-crayon_shinchan-fighting
This
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/18579/animated-chibi_maruko-chan-chibi_maruko-chan-_wata
>>83043809
It was probably Gintama m8
>>83043711
You are drawing false conclusions from a few random things you've heard.
Yes, first and last episodes usually have the most effort put into them, but that doesn't mean all the other episodes are are bad or even significantly different in quality (that webm just above is from episode 8/12 or something like that). It's also not a matter of budget, it's a matter of allocating time and staff.
The fact that animators are pressed for time and sometimes only barely meet deadlines doesn't tell us anything about the quality. The quality is what it is regardless of how it was achieved.
Things are corrected for BDs, but not as much as you think.
>>83043829
Aren't those movies?
>>83043700
What does the tower of babel have to do with the FCC?
>>83041836
>poison emits skull-shaped gas
One of those cliches that isn't the most common but happens a fair bit, and I love it.
>>83043829
>movies
your point?
The more episodes an anime has the more prone it is to having bad quality animation, but also the most likely it is they'll manage to hire an animation legend to do a scene or two every once in a while.
>>83044160
>>83043887
I was just being a troll really. To be fair though, none of those shows are particularly bad in terms of animation anyway. Not great, but not terrible neither
>>83043148
They're vampire bows and arrows.
>>83040723
>state uneducated opinion
>people with more knowledge on the subject correct you
>bitch and moan that the fandom gets pissy over 'criticism'
>>83039364
I don't. I miss when shows had openings. I do like it when they change the Op to reflect what's going on in the story.
>>83025962
Even as a kid I noticed that Spider-Man was constantly recycling animation, and the CGI was always conspicuously out of place.
>>83040132
Are you stupid? Do you even understand what you are typing?
>TV shows that target a niche audience make more money than shows that target a mass audience.
No shit, Sherlock.
>>83041408
Shaft does a lot of really awesome things. My favorite are their collages.
>>83041762
Do you live in your own ass?
>>83043711
>Little Witch Academia
>Mirai Project
Is there something I'm missing? Little Witch Academia is a standalone OVA from Studio Trigger.
>>83046301
It was part of the Anime Mirai (Anime Future) program. The government provided funding for selected studios to train new animators.
>>83040983
>someone has a different opinion
>that must mean they are trolling
Or do you not know the definition of trolling?
>>83045819
Anime gets a lot of mileage out of OPs and EDs. The Monogatari series has a unique opening animation and song for every story arc (sung by the voice actress of the character starring in the segment).
http://galax.moe/monogatari/ops
I'm starting to get the feeling that weeb anon is making these threads so he can post non arguments about how anime is superior and everything negative about it doesn't exists.
To whoever the fag is that's shitting on anime and that thinks more frames = better animation, you must think this looks like shit because it uses smear frames to reduce the number of frames.
>>83046716
I really liked how Shaft kept changing this up. Platinum Disco is still my favorite one from the series.
I don't agree with the other anon's opinion that it spoils the show. They don't, but they do give hints about the show. Recently I think Erased's OP and Osomatsu-san's OP2 were really good.
>>83046748
>Claim anime is shit
>People present a different argument
>YOU ARE ACTING LIKE ANIME IS SUPERIOR!!111
Grow the fuck up.
>>83046999
Says the guy who feels the need to constantly defend anime.
>>83046748
>that weeb anon
>"Multiple people disagree with me? Must be the same person!"
Meanwhile you're the only person here who's been shitting on anime.
>>83046999
https://desustorage.org/co/thread/82814041/#82814041
>>83003892
Please get a fucking life.
>>83027155
Family Guy never costed $2 million, not even for that pie song which was said to cost as much as a whole episode of the show it self but that later got debunked.
Family Guy was at $1 million but that budget dropped in later season.
Korra was only $200,000-$300,000 to make 90% of the time, at $1 million the animation will be 100% made in the US by someone like Titmouse.
First Avatar was $1 million but only $200,000 was spent on the show's episodes themselves.
>>83047235
So because I called him a name associated with japanophiles I hate anime?
WHAT A GREAT THREAD
>>83047302
http://lineboil.com/how-much-does-an-animated-tv-episode-cost/
The information here says that American shows cost between $500k and $2 million at the time.
>>83047661
Also:
http://ronmwangaguhunga.blogspot.com/2009/04/seth-macfarlane-family-guy-costs-about.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/family-guy-salary-raise_n_4304692.html
>>83047661
>The Simpsons
Cost rise up, now at $5-8 million, VA pay due to tolerating shitty scripts.
>Nickelodeon Animated Shows
Only TMNT due to being animated in Canada.
>Drawn Together
Royalties, the show itself is a fraction of that.
>Average American Animated Half-Hour
In the 90s, now of days it's much closer to $100,000.
>>83047765
Thanks and the money goes into royalties.
AD is voices.
>>83048223
>Only TMNT due to being animated in Canada.
"Cyma Zarghami, president of the Nickelodeon/MTVN Kids and Family Group, says Nickelodeon spends $600,000-$700,000 per episode to make its animated shows."
>Royalties, the show itself is a fraction of that.
>Thanks and the money goes into royalties.
What royalties?
>In the 90s, now of days it's much closer to $100,000.
The study is talking about 2008. "Looking at the cost per hour, The US are close to 800,000 € per hour of animation, if you total up the low cost and high cost animation"
>>83024684
Because back then they were being animated by Japs.
>>83048464
But thats is just TMNT, they bring up their most expensive show to exaggerate for what things really are.
>What royalties?
Whenever Family Guy uses a Warner Bros/DC/Hanna Barbera/ect character they have to pay those companies royalties to uses those characters.
Remember when Fred Flintstone popped up in that Simpsons X Family Guy crossover? It's things like that why they pay royalties.
DT uses outside characters all the time.
>The study is talking about 2008. "Looking at the cost per hour, The US are close to 800,000 € per hour of animation, if you total up the low cost and high cost animation"
Based on much older shows since then.
>>83025978
Most of anime is terrible.
Most cartoons are terrible.
Most of EVERYTHING is terrible. The cream rises to the top, but we shitpost about the gunk at the bottom.
>>83049350
Not in the 40s & 90s.
>>83049258
How do you know it's just TMNT?
>Whenever Family Guy uses a Warner Bros/DC/Hanna Barbera/ect character
That's still money they're choosing to spend, and unless it's a constant occurence it shouldn't be part of their regular episode budget.
>Based on much older shows since then.
How do you know?
>>83049350
This is a meme.
>>83049399
CG costs more then hand drawn animation.
Loud House at best is only $10,000 per short.
But FG tends to use outside copyright all the time.
>How do you know?
See Picture.
>>83050024
I can't find anything about AT's episode budget, but $89k can't be right considering what episodes usually cost in the US.
And how does this prove that the study was based on shows from the 90s?
>>83050366
It came from Bee & Puppycat's Kickstarter that Frederator only spends $89,000 per short on their shows.
If shows still cost $800,000 per episode that won't look so shitty as they do right now.
>>83050485
$89k cannot possibly be correct considering the general costs of animation in the US and the fact that AT spends 9 months on every episode.
http://www.avclub.com/article/iadventure-time-icreator-pendleton-ward-71236
>If shows still cost $800,000 per episode that won't look so shitty as they do right now.
It was €800,000 and the average of all shows, and the money doesn't all go into animation and other production values.
>>83050711
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/frederator/bee-and-puppycat-the-series/description
Still at $900,000 the animation should stay in the US unless they are bloated pay checks or plain trips to other countries.
>>83050837
Where does it say there that Frederator's shows cost $89k per episode?
>>83050837
Chart said $80,000, but still.
>>83051124
Are you talking about what it costs (or should cost) this project to make one episode? That doesn't tell us what it costs to make a professional, long-running TV series like Adventure Time.
Their episode length is also half of AT's, so you can double that $80,000.
>>83051307
Are you talking about what it costs this project to make one episode?
Yes.
>That doesn't tell us what it costs to make a professional, long-running TV series like Adventure Time.
All of Frederator's shows cost the same amount.
>Their episode length is also half of AT's, so you can double that $80,000.
AT also has 2 shorts so it's 160,000 per 22 minutes.
>>83051429
>>Their episode length is also half of AT's, so you can double that $80,000.
>AT also has 2 shorts so it's 160,000 per 22 minutes.
I think he meant that Bee and Puppycat shorts are half the length of even a single Adventure Time or Steven Universe short.
>>83051429
Why would they all cost the same amount? Surely AT's voice actors for example cost more than BaP's.
>AT also has 2 shorts so it's 160,000 per 22 minutes.
If BaP costs $80k per 6 minutes and AT's episodes are 11 minutes long, then AT would cost about $160k per episode. 22 minutes would cost about $320,000. But this is assuming that BaP and AT cost the same.
>>83051628
>>83051630
Ok then that makes sense.
Frederator does not spend alot of money.
>>83052027
You can't deduce based on BaP what it costs to produce AT.
https://sakuga.yshi.org/post/show/5373/animated-batman-_the_animated_series-creatures-deb
this show had some standout moments in animated televised series
>>83026124
89% talking heads with no other movement.
1% hory shit look at this fluid action scene.
10% QUALITY
>>83053434
Once again, this is a myth and not what anime is actually like.
>>83025951
Please Japan's animation studios are already under stress from their own work.
>>83033659
>western animation doesn't try to focus on boring real life actions like people running so it's not a fair comparison.
It's a shame they can't do the same thing for their games.
>>83025978
Reminder that from the beginning, Paul Terry used the cheapest techniques and tricks and cutted as many corners as possible to make over 20 cartoons in a single year with the budget of probably around $8,000 or even lower for each cartoon with a composer that was forced to make over 800 compositions from the public domain without ANY ROYALTY.
And yet nowadays, you corporate sad saps take over $500,000 to produce an episode of a TV cartoon that looks shitty in digital inking.
Even though in inflation terms (1930 to 2016, you get $110,011.62), multiply that by 3 times and yet it still costs less than the amount it takes to make a fucking Family Guy episode.
>>83027317
>Here, we have very detailed characters who are engaged in very complicated swordfighting
Get that slow shit out of here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VB_vjVxcic
>>83040723
>God damn, I thought this AIDF shitposter would realize he got thrashed in this thread from last Monday
This the idiot that tried to defend anime humor and animated horror?
>>83055544
That scene isn't anywhere near as well animated Sword of the Stranger.
>This the idiot that tried to defend anime humor and animated horror?
I said that humor is very subjective and that anime horror exists. And that's it. Why are you bringing this up?
>>83054684
Is because they had overpaid VAs who need their mansions.
>>83034566
this is a joke right? ahahah THIS HAS TO BE SOME SORT OF SICK JOKE RIGHT!?!?!??!?!!??!!?!?!?!?
>>83056089
Yep
>>83052589
Bias TMS.
>>83053776
Japan is trying to get rid of the fujos, we can help.
>>83058636
Fujoshi are paying customers and nobody is trying to get rid of them.
>>83058636
i'm not quite sure what you mean by that first comment.
>>83058880
But it's not the paying customers they want, they want intelligent people.
We kill off the fujos when they kill off Tumblr, fare is fare.
>>83059459
Yes they do want paying customers.
Tumblr is irrelevant in Japan.
