Why is this considered racist? Why do people try to pretend that no black person ever talked like this?
>>80906318
Well this thread started well
We wuz stereotypes 'n shit.
>>80906125
Because there's a difference between a naturalistic depiction and a caricature.
There were certainly people in that era with a similar dialect. But they were more than just broad comic relief for someone else's story.
If the only point in including a guy with a funny accent is to make fun of his accent.... well racism aside, that's just shitty writing.
>>80906125
Don't some people still talk like that?
>>80906125
The crows are undeniably racist caricatures because they follow the standard formula for racist caricatures of that time. Caricature is all about taking a real world truth or partial truth and exaggerating it for usually comedic effect. Now, are they bad or negative caricatures? They're basically portrayed as negative layabouts, which all blacks were lampooned as in pop culture or some such bullshit, but seeing as how they support dumbo after he proves himself, they seem pretty positive to me.
All this bellyaching about racist caricatures only came about in the modern, politically correct era. Back then, nobody gave a shit, they did it because it was funny, and while some people sure were genuine racists, I'm certain that most people didn't give a shit and took it all as the way things were.
The thing about modern critique of racist caricatures is the presumption that all caricatures are meant as an outright political statement of the inferiority of blacks instead of you know, a funny thing for moving pictures.
>>80906125
WELL I'VE SEEN A HORSE FLY!
>>80906318
YEAH BLACK POWER LULZ! I WILL START LISTEN GANGSTA RAP AND TALKING SHIT ABOUT HONKIES ON YOUTUBE COMMENTS! AND AFTER THAT I WILL POST FARRAKHAN AND ELIJAH MUHAMMAD QUOTES FOR TROLLING WHITEY! WITH AN AVATAR OF HUEY FREEMAN! YEAH PANTHER POWER!! SPIKE LEE IS MY FAVORITE MOVIE DIRECTOR!
Well i'm still hungry, where is my next chicken bucket?
what makes the red man red tho?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_at9dOElQk
>>80906467
>>80906467
Except they weren't comic relief, they without them Dumbo would've never had the courage to fly.
Also, the whole movie is about not letting other people demean you for your physical appearance.
People had to recognize these crows as black people in order to get the message across.
>>80906467
>If the only point in including a guy with a funny accent is to make fun of his accent.... well racism aside, that's just shitty writing
In a comedic film meant only to entertain you, why is it bad writing?
Why is everyone searching for paragraph after paragraph of meaning in kids films nowadays?
While its interesting to delve into the world of subconsciously inserted symbolism and all that drivel, sometimes you have to come back to reality and realize shit isn't that deep, man.
>>80906611
Holy shit a fair and reasonable assessment of a social issue on /co/ that manages to take into account multiple points of view and doesn't even mention /pol/ or tumblr once. Are these the end times?
>>80906125
>Why do people try to pretend that no black person ever talked like this?
It's not that, it's that people today don't realize the crows were singing in the style of African American Jazz music, which was popular at the time.
It's damn catchy music too.
>>80906467
Have you seen the movie recently? The crows were some of the only characters who were sympathetic to Dumbo, and helped him learn to fly. They had a lot more dignity than pretty much any other side characters.
The clowns all had funny voices and virtually no dignity, and nobody complains about that as 'shitty writing'.
>>80906687
Tiger Lily sure makes me red, if you know what I mean.
>>80906611
/co/ won't read that
>>80906318
>>80906664
Hahah xD upvoted man so true
That's how crows talk tho
It's one thing to make them "act black" it was another thing to make them crows... as in Jim Crow.
>>80906125
The fact one of them is called Jim Crow is fucked up and is what's banishing them from being referenced ever again. Otherwise they're not bad.
>>80907067
Where did that come from, anyway? I don't think they're given names in the actual movie.
>>80907125
It comes from his model sheet.
>>80907215
that's one smooth looking duck
>>80907125
It was a script only name but people caught wind of it. the other problem is that the main crow was a whitey doing a black impression. No one tell these outraged people what some of John DiMaggio's voice work has been.
>>80906704
>>80906754
>>80906834
>tfw posts like these will NEVER be met with a reasonable counter argument
>>80907067
>>80907272
Why not just re-name him and have a real black guy voice him next time he appears in media?
>>80907272
Fucking actors, what are they thinking, pretending to be someone that they aren't..
Next you'll tell me that Bambi wasn't voiced by an actual deer.
The crows were some of the best characters in the film! First they come over to Dumbo & Timothy rattling off jokes & insults until Timothy shoots them down & makes them cry. Then they realize they were being shitheads & support Dumbo. They're actually pretty nice.
>>80907346
Your point would be reasonable if it weren't for the fact of you ignoring every point above that WAS met with a reasonable counter argument. You're really doing what in essence the SJW you hate do
>>80907346
why do you think?
race war baiters will start an argument and then run away when theyre faced with a legitimate point
its a primitive form of trolling
>>80907375
I know you aren't that retarded and can see why, for example, a white guy pulling the sides of his eyes back and going "herro I makea olange chicken fo' you" could be seen as racist.
>>80907484
Sure, in that completely separate scenario, I can see how that could be insensitive.
>Loved this scene the most when I was younger.
>Also loved the crow scene from The Wiz the most when I was younger.
>Grew up thinking that that's just how crows were depicted and shit.
>>80907460
>being this paranoid about /pol/
I'm from /pol/ and I actually agree with these posts. You guys really need to stop thinking we're cartoonish KKK members and realize /pol/ is full of schmucks just like this place; we're actually entitled to differing opinions.
>>80907433
mhm mhm
tell me more
>>80907375
To be fair its a white dude doing a stereotypical black voice. >>80907484 is right.
I won't say you can't do it but don't be obtuse and compare it to other shit.
Also is mere appearance enough to decry something as a racist caricature?
Say someone draws a black character with deep possibly jet black skin and pink rubber tire lips, but that's it. Their personalities are either normal or there's no indication of how they act.
Is that racist? Should being similar to historically racist images be brought up? Especially in a culture that doesn't share any of this history?
>>80907673
>Go to /pol/ because it's a pretty good vantage to the Monkey Cage that's the American Political System.
>99% Meme spam
>>80907563
They got the best song in the whole movie
Also does anyone care about Dumbo in any capacity? I just thought people were vaguely uncomfortable with stereotyping from a bygone era, where the truth of it is no longer relatable and all that's left is an uncomfortable caricature. But I don't think anyone is as worked up about this still as people in this post seem to be suggesting.
>>80906704
>>80906754
>>80906834
>magical negroes
because that's better
>>80907758
So what? Why does it matter that it's a white guy? Some people talked like that, it's just a fact. Why is it so different to play a character who talks like that then to play a character with a different accent than you have?
>>80907801
haha, there's just no winning, is there?
>>80907917
I mean, anyone with half a brain can recognize that it's a racist caricature, so no?
the head crow is named Jim Crow, for fuck's sakes
>>80906467
>If the only point in including a guy with a funny accent is to make fun of his accent.... well racism aside, that's just shitty writing.
You're a fucking retard and a cuck.
Look at these racist caricatures of white males from the same time period. obviously no one ever really talked like or acted like this ever, and showing these images is detrimental to the image of modern white people in society.
>>80907801
>magical negroes
No they're not.
>>80907801
So the only solution is to stop using black characters.
>>80907987
How does a politically satirical name make them racist or bad characters?
>>80907987
Why is it that whenever black people are helpful they're called magical negroes?
>>80907801
>hating on magical negroes
Fuck you and fuck everything you like.
>>80908067
Cuz people read half a text post and start spouting off half-assed versions of their vague grasping of an actual issue.
>>80906843
I genuinely don't.
>>80907758
lrn 2 filter
>>80907801
If it was a black guy then it'd be slightly betterto those offended most likelythat he was just acting like a stereotype. There's not a lot of difference between your comparison to a white ethnic parody other than our own subjective judgments on the issue. All I'm saying is admit to what you're doing, it's just dumb to pretend you're not aware you're playing up a racial caricature. If you want to fight the double standard that one ethnic stereotype is good fun then you need to actually admit to what you're doing in the first place.
>>80908039
Yosemite Sam definitely, I don't see Elmer being a specific stereotype of anything. Depending on the short he varies from domesticated dork who hunts for leisure to just vague hunter. Yosemite can atleast be tied to a particular place and personality type.
>>80908273
But I like their bad memes and constant spam.
It's when actual bad shit happens that /pol/ becomes unfun, I remember getting in on the Dolezal debacle and had a good chuckle....then Roof happened.
>>80907215
>2006?
daym i thaught they wouldve re-named him by then or just called him just Jim at least
>>80906611
>Back then, nobody gave a shit
Gee, can't imagine why black people didn't say anything about it. Nope.
>>80908456
The model sheet is from March 24th, 1941. Look at the top corner.
>>80906125
As a black guy I had not problem with the crows. The lead crow being called Jim (in Jim Crow) was fucking stupid. But besides that they were okay characters.
>>80906754
>In a comedic film meant only to entertain you, why is it bad writing?
Because it's lazy as fucking fuck.
Is it racist?
>>80906467
>there's a difference between a naturalistic depiction and a caricature
And most people nowadays are unable to see that difference, and view virtually all naturalistic depictions as caricatures.
>>80908599
Blacks aren't people, silly /co/mrade.
>>80908683
Define 'lazy'. Is it less lazy to make all of the characters act like they're upper-middle class?
>>80908599
Dude, back then black people knew other black people like that.
Have you ever watched Felix the Cat? It does almost the exact same thing with 1970's urban blacks. Hell, they even used crows.
Nobody gave a shit when The Boondocks did it and they were blatantly flinging shit at black culture.
>>80908067
Its basically to combat the numerous examples that go against the narrative of "blacks aren't represented positively in popular media".
What the fuck is a magical negro anyway?
>>80909354
The current US president.
>>80908683
How is it "lazy"?
The guy has a funny accent, the film is meant to be funny, you throw it in there to get the audience to laugh at the fucking accent.
Are you seriously telling me every single piece of media ever has to strive to be the next Ulysses?
That the three fucking stooges are lazy hacks because they hit each other?
Tip your fedora harder cunt, since you're so evolved past slapstick and funny accents.
>>80909379
>Syria's fucked
>Economy still in the toilet, albeit holding onto the rim
Shouldn't have fucked Michelle.
>>80908011
Why are you so hostile.
Does the thrill of anonymously attacking strangers over the internet get your chode to tickle? Perhaps you should consider paying your overdue bar tab. Oh wait im going to guess you dont leave that crusty old basement you call your home. Perhaps if you took one moment, one day, nay, one passing second to think about your situation in life you would realize that in the end nothing is worth while and that the most you can do to positively impact this world and all other worlds in the known universe is to finally, FINALLY, itch that scratch in the back of your mind. The thought you dare not acknowledge lest you finally man up the cojones, balls for your impoverished foolhardy ass, to FINALLY take that power cord, sticky and grimy with caked on layers of doritos crumbs, sweat, and semen. A frothy, disgusting mixture of bodily waste that so accurately sums up who and what you and your lifestyle represent: Absolute scum. Not one more second should pass where you continue to contribute to the enthropic heat death of known reality. Take that power cable. Take that disgusting mound of semen, rubber, and disgusting food particles. Take it. Take all 8 feet of it from the very wall in which its plugged to the half dismantled box that you use to type this message to me. Take it, and finally, FINALLY, itch that scratch. Tie it as tight as you can around your neck, make sure that one end is securely fastened to the ceiling, and take that final plunge. That final step off your bent and mangled chair, the unfortunate piece of plastic used to carry your morbidly obese welfare person. Take that final step. Take that final step into the halls of darness and obscurity. Do it. Kill yourself. For the good of all mankind.
>>80909354
Benevolent bland token black character, a simple man or woman who exists solely to be sage, spout advice and help the main character through his life journey.
More of plot point than a character.
Often they are literally magical
The crows obviously don't qualify
>>80909529
Stop trying to make this a thing, you retard.
>>80906467
>If the only point in including a guy with a funny accent is to make fun of his accent
Can you point out the part where someone was making fun of their accents?
>>80909661
Why do you persist you miserable little asshole?
Do you realize just what a waste you are? Just what a miserable little person you've turned out to be.think. Think back. to your childhood. Think about how full of promise and excitement you were. Now think about how you've suffocated and murdered that child under the weight of your own inadequacy. You've disappointed everyone, you know. Your mother can barely stand the sight of you, you are now as much the child she took to her breast as the cancerous lump growing in her uterus is. At least that lump of cells holds no false promise but peace from your wretched existence. Think back to all the people you ever encountered in your squandered life and say a quiet apology to them for being a complete waste of their time and faith. That girl who actually liked you, who you so foolishly indulged in fantasies of being married to and having children with and dying peaceful, gray haired on a bed with. Just think, she's currently rutting with some other, much more successful man(unlike you, who could barely be called a man, let alone human), filling her womb with his seed, propagating his lineage. Do you feel it? Do you hear it? Her nails on his back. Her moans of ecstasy when he takes her. They'll have a long, happy future together. A better one than you could've ever given her. .Your lineage is squandered on rags, dying, encrusted, yellowing rags and filling the dank air of your festering living area. You have failed not just as a person, but as a basic living being. You waste your time on message boards. You snap at people who have no identity, who will come and go through your life, and you meet them with hostility. Killing yourself would simply be a benefit to you so in all actuality I hope you never die. I hope you just keep living, in this constant state of mediocrity and anger.
>>80906125
It was a stereotype that is unrelatable in this day and age. People who don't understand it probably won't get it, but the people who do know it's a stereotype for blacks and might take offense.
I don't know, it's kind of like irish cops and shit. Some people care, some don't.
>>80909768
The thing is, you watch old movies and everyone talks different then they do now. I mean, we can still relate to characters who talk in an old-timey way, right? Aren't the crows just that?
I don't think that stereotypes are inherently hateful, but there's obviously no accounting for what people will find 'offensive'.
>>80909963
Offense is something that's taken, not given. If you're offended by a flock of cartoon birds modeled after early twentieth century jazz musicians, that says more about you than it does about the cartoon birds.
>>80909963
It's more the stigma that comes with those kinds of stereotypes. They were also treated negatively by the movies cast, fitting with the tension and cultural divide between whites and blacks back then.
The whole thing is complicated and without context you would never pick up from Dumbo, the people who claim it to be racist read into the subtlety of it more than anything. One of the crows eyes are also pink, showing that he's high.
>>80906611
>nobody gave a shit
There were those who gave a shit. You don't think black actors not being allowed to the premiers of the movies they starred in didn't leave a bad taste in anyone's mouth then? Just because we don't have SJW tweets from back then to cite doesn't mean "nobody gave a shit."
>>80910276
I really don't think a lot of people who claim it to be racist are reading into any subtleties.
If a white person says anything or makes reference to any other culture, the default reaction nowadays is to cry racism. The word hardly means anything anymore.
Also, the crow's eyes aren't red, he's wearing tinted glasses.
>>80906704
>Also, the whole movie is about not letting other people demean you for your physical appearance.
>People had to recognize these crows as black people in order to get the message across.
Bingo. Same year, they made THE RELUCTANT DRAGON where a similarly gay-coded character was used the same way.
The problem is just that while it was "Fair For Its Day," they didn't have any actual black or gay people working on them, so while they tried to be forward looking, the depictions were still embarrassing (country bumpkin black character actually named Jim Crow; dragon basically a flaming queen).
>>80910276
This but with an added "they're black and crows are black lol." Their skin color is part of a joke and probably would never be done with white people because they're the default. It's like these crowd are black and everyone else is normal.
Do these crowd make me mad personally? No, but I can understand why someone would find the distasteful.
>>80910596
What are you talking about? Disney touched on plenty of non-white race issues and hardly anyone cried racism. I actually don't know of anyone who has beef with the movies from the 90s onward.
>>80910811
Those movies weren't made during the civil rights era.
>>80910694
They're absolutely distasteful. But it's a product of the culture that existed back then. It was racist, but it was pretty much the only type of black person most white people knew about, all they had to go on was propaganda and what other cartoonists were doing, which was all fueled by the Jim Crow character.
>>80910499
Nobody IMPORTANT gave a shit.
Happy?
Fuck nobody even remembers Song of the South except for how racist it supposedly is considering nobody this generation has seen it.
>>80910917
I just jumped into the conversation and saw that you had said that any white person referencing non-white culture is automatically labeled racist.
I'll respond to something else.
>>80909963
The thing about racism is that it doesn't have to be hateful. The word "ignorant" is thrown around because a lot of people don't hate the races they offered, they just don't know better.
You could make a cartoon about how Cubans are naturally worse than whites people and hold that opinion honestly with no hatred towards Cubans, maybe a great deal of empathy in the form of "I'm sorry you guys suck," and the cartoon would still be racist.
>>80911207
Song of the South lived on in Splash Mountain.
And no I'm not happy because that implies that the Anitas of the modern cartoon world are important.
>>80911354
Okay, but Dumbo isn't making any value judgement on the crows at all. They certainly aren't dumber than the rest of the cast. There's nothing supremacist about Dumbo.
>>80911796
I feel like it's more like the whole point in the early 2000s when black guys on tv were pretty much exclusively thug types. It's not that it doesn't exist, but when you only get the one portrayal constantly it gets a little old and starts to certainly feel racist. It's one note. The persistence of one image in the media constantly becomes damaging, and jive talking crows are basically that of ye olde days.
I can't imagine anyone is legitimately offended by it now because it's based on stereotypes that don't really still exist. And being that it's old, the truth of it is gone so the caricature becomes more garish and sticks out painfully, so it's more an awkward reminder than genuinely hurtful. I wouldn't say that people weren't offended by it during it's release, for reasons that will be hard to grasp today but you're getting an echo of now.
I haven't heard anyone actually care about Dumbo in any capacity in a while though
>>80911796
Depends on the definition of the word. Just google "racism" and the definition there first talk about stereotyping then goes on to state that it especially means thinking one race is superior to the other. We're basically arguing semantics at this point.
