https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fU69hldyq7U
Why does the final fight with green goblin in this movie, seem so much more brutal than any fight I've seen in newer superhero films?
Because Raimi once upon a time was a great director. This was also before everyone decided BIGGER IS BETTER for supe movies so there's not a million explosions going on.
>>81612525
It's the way sam raimi films his shit. He uses the camera and perspective in such a way that the hits all seem like they 'hit' really fucking hard.
It honestly stems from a love of three stooges slapstick violence. In evil dead 2 he began with this kinda shit making the hits ash take seem brutal as fuck for comedy effect. But by this point he got that shit down perfect so when spider-man and green goblin were knocking each other through shit or hitting one another you could almost feel the bones cracking.
Not to mention he throws a grenade in spideys face and tries to fucking stab him with a trident, and is later himself impaled on a bunch of rocket propelled knives.
Its coherent and brutal.
Spider-man 2's train scene will always be GOAT though.
>>81612525
Because nostalgia faggotry
>>81612525
Every hit matters. Instead of characters getting slapped around and coming back for more like nothing happened, they get visibly injured with each blow, showing extreme pain, and we see them struggling more and more to land their next hit each time.
Toby McGuire's screams of pain add a lot to it. Modern movies portrays heroes like they're invincible and impervious to pain.This scene makes Spider Man seem more mortal, his costume gets torn to shit, and his face gets fucked up.
I stand by the assertion that Raimi's Spider-man 1 and 2 are the best cape movies yet made
>>81612649
On top of this there's also the personal stakes of the fight. Modern superhero films have turned away from the soap opera shenanigans, with good reason, but the one thing they were good for was that emotional stakes. Green Goblin had figured out his secret identity, attacked his aunt and his girlfriend and was just shittinf all over his life. This wasn't ideological differences or good vs evil. It was personal.
Same reason the Luke and Vader fights are so intense.
>>81612942
This is accurate, though I need to rewatch the first two X-Men films.
>yfw spidermans first scene in civil war plays this theme
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Ac4xamCIgY
>>81612987
The first two X-men movies are pretty good.
They have their weaknesses but overall are pretty good.
The opening of X1 with Magneto in the camps is amazing, though
>>81612942
1 isnt due to the cheese factor, but 2 is still absolutely the best superhero film ever made. It literally hits every fucking note a superhero movie should. In fact it even feels like a long arc of a comic book.
Instead of loading it with quips and dance offs Raimi provided a genuine sense of danger.
It's honestly fairly accurate to the comics, though the scene originally was Peter avenging Gwen; he was fucking SAVAGE in that fight.
Spidey is a real nice hero who will hit you and web you up and shit, but if you scare him or get him REALLY mad he stops cracking jokes and you're left fighting this superhumanly strong guy who's fast enough to dodge bullets bludgeoning you to death from everywhere at once as he tosses you through brick walls and webs up heavy objects and slams them into you with full intent to pulverize your mangled corpse into goo and reacts to everything you do BEFORE YOU EVEN DO IT.
Spider-Man is so nice so much of the time that it's easy to forget just how insanely dangerous he can be when he stops cracking wise and he properly focuses and uses all of his powers at the same time ti maximum effect.
He's got nerd rage magnified a thousand times over.
>>81613194
Like the other anon said, that's all due to Raimi's skill at directing violence.
He's an action/horror movie director and it shows.
The fights have weight in them. Not just quick smacking around.
Even Winter Soldier had that issue.
Someone would get popped in the head and they'd keep on fighting without much more than a wince.
>>81612525
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfSz0bQzZuM
Better quality here.
Look at that. The superhero is actually taking a severe beating and looks like he's actually in danger of getting beaten to death.
Most superhero fight scenes are extremely tame in comparison.
>>81613386
That's one thing I miss from older movies.
The heroes often get their asses kicked and actually look exhausted by it.
Indiana Jones was great for that. Indie got his ass beat all the time and Harrison Ford did a great job selling it.
>>81612525
Because"Don't tell Harry."
>>81612942
No contest there.
>>81612525
Spiderman actually bleeds. Remember Superman's fight with Zod? Even though they're blasting through buildings no blood, no bruises, his hair doesn't even get messed up.
>Practical effects
>Action direction
and
>Melodrama
>>81613501
I still remember the BvS fight and not even WW gets dust on their skin.
>>81613386
I always thought that moment where Goblin cowers in fear as the wall falls on him was dumb. The rest of the fight is so good and then he does that pose and it's like bruh
>>81613697
>rest of the fight
Nah, its just 'goblin beats the shit out of peter' and then 'peter beats the shit out of goblin for like 10 seconds'.
The only good fights are in SM2.
>>81612942
>>81613190
What about Spider-Man 3?
>>81612525
>>81613507
This. Also the fact there is no music playing during the beat down.No music makes it more brutal. Add one of the songs from the other Spider-man soundtracks(specifically an action song) to this scene and it loses it's Brutality..
>>81613727
Had it's moments but was ultimately destroyed by producer meddling.
Venom should have never have been forced into it.
>>81613727
We dont talk about that "movie"
>>81613194
Raimi movies needed more humor. It's Spider-Man! He jokes a lot! That's his thing!
Every main villain in the Raimi spiderman films only become evil because they were being influenced by something.
Norman was being influenced by the effects of the serum he took
Dr Octopus was driven insane when the chip that let him keep influence over his robotic arms got fried.
Eddie Brock was being influenced by the alien symbiote.I think Harry was being influenced by the same serum that his father took but I could be totally wrong
>>81613825
>Eddie Brock was being influenced by the alien symbiote.
Not really.
Doesn't he go to the church to pray to god to kill Spider-man?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aHTqrlHdZ5M
It's because back in the early 00s people still had balls when making their superheroes fight to the death
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lt56jutf1vk
When was the last time we had a bank fight in a cape movie?
TDK doesn't count.
>>81613957
Man, I had no idea Joel McHale was in this movie
>>81613727
>>81613765
This, pretty much.
But even though forcing Venom into the movie is what ruined it, the weak link in the story is Sandman. I know Raimi really wanted him, but he was superfluous in the final version, and the story would've worked much better if Harry were the target of EmoPete's rage.
>>81613386
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DImh0ac-jdQ&index=30
Compare that to a more recent superhero flick. Let's use Dark Knight Rises as an example.
It just looks like a sloppy fist fight with none of the punches having much impact at all. The only bit where Batman looks like he's panicking or even in any danger is at the 2:24 bit when Bane has him pinned against a pillar. But it only lasts for a second.
>>81613957
Man the CGI for those tentacles were fantastic.
Hard to tell them apart from the real props sometimes
>>81614024
Sandman and Harry would've been just great alone, since both Pete and Harry would be going against those who had killed or thought to have killed their father/father figure
>>81614053
I didn't even know they had props until I read years ago in an old magazine that it was a mix of real and CG. Even named them Flo, Mo and some other two names to help with the scene making
>>81612525
fuck I just wish I could watch this movie with the original makeup on Dafoe's face.
>>81614131
I mean it was pretty cool and all, but it wouldn't really fit the plot.
How does he pretend to be Norman with a face like that?
I think everyone praised the hallway fight in Daredevil S1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B66feInucFY
Probably one of the few times where the henchmen don't get knocked out immediately.
S2's hallway fight https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmsP4j809Us however sucked because of poor lighting and camera angles that made the DD movie from 2003 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krQBlylJR4g&nohtml5=False seem better.
>>81614165
yeah I guess it would be stupid. I still just would like to see what it would've looked like with Dafoe delivering some of his lines with it on.
>>81614172
What I like about that S1 fight is that there wasn't any ridiculously flipping and shit that the other fights in the season had.
I wish Matt fought more like a boxer than a ridiculous kung fu master.
Like, do you need to do a sideways flip to kick a guy in the head when he's already on the ground?
>>81614172
that scene was so much better than the stairway part in S2.
>>81614232
Gotta do at least one flip as cape quota
>>81614256
The stairway scene seem way too much like a reprise of the hallway scene. Like they saw that the fans liked the hallway scene and decided to mimic it.
>>81612977
>Modern superhero films have turned away from the soap opera shenanigans,
cep deadpool. deadpool managed to stay kinda small scale and very personal. part of that was probably due to budgetary reasons though.
>>81614172
Never seen this show. Love how sloppy this fight is. He looks like he lacks experience fighting henchmen. Betting this takes place pretty early into his crime fighting career, on account of his ghetto superhero attire.
>>81614172
>that fucking butt rock playing in the 03 fight scene
i forgot all about that shit. except for the evanescence song.
>>81614310
It's the third episode of the first season.
The start of that episode?he got beat up so hard he ended inside a dumpster to be cared by the Night Nurse
>>81614310
What you say is true, but it's pretty much the only fight like that.
The rest are overchoreographed flipfests
>>81613757
This.
Also, minimal sound effects. The only sound effects are from the impact, meaning all you're focused on is solely the pain the characters must be feeling.
>>81614323
Say what you will, but DD2003 will always be one of my top three /co/ guilty pleasures.
>>81614172
Obligatory mention that the hallway scene was inspired from the one from Old Boy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwIIDzrVVdc
>>81613846
We aren't given the reason he's there.
We can only go by the comics as a result, which means he went there to pray before killing himself as he's a VERY devout Catholic and suicide is a one-way ticket to hell.
>>81614364
I always thought it had some good things about it. I really liked MCD as Fisk and Farrell as Bullseye even if his outfit was stupid.
>>81614343
There's also some sort of boxer feel to it, and it works great because you would feel more impact on heavy hits than kicking/throwing him 50 feet away and then just using jumping as evasion.
>>81613820
This last fight was angry Spider-Man. If he quipped more early on, the fact that there aren't any here would be a bit of a bigger deal.
>>81614339
That's a shame. This early fight, while the fighting isn't exactly amazingly choreographed, has a lot of character and charm to it.
Really like how the camera only stays in the hallway and any time they fall into a room the camera just keeps focus on the hallway.
>>81614411
>any time they fall into a room the camera just keeps focus on the hallway
shit like that made the scene for me. like how when he knocks that door out and one of the guys walks up, you just see a microwave fly out the door and hit him in the face. I also really liked the parts in S2 where you would see Matt's baton fly in from offscreen and peg a dude in the head.
>>81614369
No, in the movie, he literally says "I want you to kill Peter Parker."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__hlSiOKeBY
>>81614172
>tfw one of the few people that actually liked the Daredevil movie
>>81614172
>"What do you want?"
>"Justice!"
>throws baton in his face
That made me laugh way more than it should have.
>>81614364
>guilty pleasure
I feel no guilt in liking this movie.
>>81614367
Damn that was badass.
Tobey Maguire's girlish screams of pain really add a lot.
>>81614669
The movie on a whole is really good.
>>81614689
It does. It just makes it feel so real. Every grunt, shriek, and scream he makes just makes it look so life-like.
I mean, everytime I see this, even though I and everyone else knows he will make it out alive, it just feels like Spidey will actually die, like he IS in real danger, this could be his last fight.
>>81613957
I've always wondered: how the hell does Ock stand taking so many punches to the face from Spider-Man? Besides the arms, isn't he just a regular guy?
>>81614732
I think I heard about it. Is it, spoilers for everyone about the film so don't click on the blacktext, aboutGuy gets imprisoned inside a hotel room for years, gets out, meets a girl and they have a romantic interest in each other, guy finds the dude that imprisoned him and learns that the girl is actually his daughter, and so on?
I read about it, but I gotta watch it sometime.
>>81614879
Madness does shit to you. Plus, I bet Spidey pulled his punches.
>>81612788
>being in denial
>>81614879
I'm guessing that he's definitely taking the beating but the tentacles are helping him balance along with doing their own thing without the need for consent from Ock.
While watching that fight, there's that bit JUST before Osborn's taunting Peter, where he steps on his wrist. Not to turn this into a "organic vs. mechanical" argument (because lord knows that won't ever freaking end) but there's one thing mechanical webshooters would have for this scene, imagine if the Goblin crushed Peter's wrist hard enough that we could literally see one of the webshooters get destroyed.
>>81614879
>>81614922
I don't know if Slott did it or if it was the writer before him, but part of what put him in the End of the Earth bodycast is that he's been getting the shit beaten out of him by dudes who can literally rip him in half for at least a decade. I feel like Otto should be one of those enemies where Peter should be able to take him down with one hit, but thanks to those arms of his, it's GETTING that one hit that's hard.
Didn't they have to slap together the final fight in Spiderman 1? I seem to remember they had to change the location. They were going to fight on and around the Twin Towers, or something like that.
>>81614879
Peter always pulls his punches.
But also, the limbs are in a lot of control.
When Otto gets shoved into the window and Spider-man really wails on him, he looks about to fall unconscious when one of the tentacles rips off Spider-man.
>>81612525
because of how real it all is. the only thing in that whole fight scene that isn't real is him shooting the webbing in that picture, and even the way the webs form in front of him is fucking awesome. it doesn't make a lot of sense for them to arrange in that manner, but goddamn does it look cool.
At the subject of cape fights, what do you all think of the forest fight from Transformers 2?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DgQHgy7Nmkk
It's quite possibly the only battle that's consistently clear and good without the help of humans, right next tounderwhelming Dinobot charge from the fourth
>>81615007
I actually thought for a second that the webs were semi-metallic when I first watched the movie.
>>81614369
are you retarded? he literally prays for god to kill peter.
>>81615024
It's the best fight of the series, but it still looks like a tornado blowing through a scrap yard
>>81614967
Literally spun his webs for the last time.
I would've liked that, though if Raimi needed to add more brutality in simplicity, just add the sound of fingers cracking.
>>81615037
Yeah they make that weird noise when Osborne tears them down
>>81615063
That too could work, but I recall someone mentioning that it seemed more brutal because there wasn't any added sound effects. I'm just remembering a bit in the 90's cartoon, I think one of the first times Peter fights the Goblin, and he crushes both of his webshooters with his bare hands.
>>81612942
Nah 1 has aged pretty badly and also has been topped by others recently. 2 however does remain GOAT. No superhero fight scene has topped the train fight and no movie has had a hero moment like Peter stopping the train.
Also Doc Ock was incredibly well cast.
>>81615045
>tornado in a scrapyard
that belongs to the hilarious end fight with Shockwave at the third. He was literally spinning around killing Decepticons while poorly placed explosions occurred.
>>81614967
>>81615063
Ah man, that sounds burtal. I can't help though that if R rated, you would hear sinew and bone cracking and see some blood coming underneath of the foot that is crushing that hand, with Pete maybe doing a shrill short yell of pain.
>>81615024
Pretty good fight scene for the Transformers film series. But the extended cut hurts the fight with crappy clutter. The original theatrical edit is much better because it trims some fat.
>>81615158
Pretty sure they got to pull something as brutal as that in the X-Men movies.
Speaking of X-Men, how about another train fight to watch?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5unujuHyYo&nohtml5=False
>>81613447
damn... that shit was so abrupt too
>>81615158
That's overdoing it. Something that violent would clash too hard with the overall silly tone of the movie.
>>81615096
Ock wasn't even too comic-based too if based on the tentacle AI.
>>81615249
That's true.
One of my favorite parts from the final fight was the civillians around the bridge helping Spider-Man save the civillians.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2kEvktHRYw
Definitely love it when they cheer and help the main protagonist.
>>81615215
I really wish the Silver Samurai had been a person, not a robot-suit, that is one of my complaints. That and not being R-rated and having shit as badass as the Xmen Origins Wolverine: Uncaged Edition Videogame.
For those niggas that love Wolverine being done right: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=tPYnzm_EME4
>>81615215
I love when Hugh Jackman screams, either in pain or in rage.
>>81615363
Shit was crazy brutal.
Deadpool didn't make good use of the R rated in terms of violence but I'll forgive it because their budget was below average.
>>81615289
Much better than the fucking crane scene in ASM
>>81612525
I remember in a Behind The Scenes Maguire said that a lot of Dafoe's punches actually hurt even if it was just acting.
How about the most stylishly hilarious fight in the franchise?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T9ggbkxmaRs
>>81615460
I am gonna play this game again when I get a Xbox360, and buy the X-room(?) dlc.
Also, Deadpool was pretty good anyway. I was surprised just how much they let the movie get away with doing.
>>81615460
>Deadpool didn't make good use of the R rated in terms of violence
A dude literally hit a sign so hard he became organs
>>81615757
Oh my god, I really don't remember this movie. The fuck was up with Pete having his mouth open? The hell was that with that music? The fucking whistling in the music?
I gotta say though, what he said to Harry? That was cold, stone cold.
>>81613068
I can admit the foundation is nice but it always sounded like a knockoff of the Batman ost
Because someone dies in a direct way.
>>81615943
Well the guy who composed this did do the Batman 1989 and Batman returns OSTs
>>81615757
at least the music's nice.
>>81615757
>STRAWBERRIES
This is why I can never fully hate a Sam Raimi movie. Even his worst ones are filled with weird moments of absurdist humor or bizarre one-liners.
>>81612525
Not really a superhero "film" but the intensity of Nobu vs Daredevil's first fight is probably my most favorite from recent superhero media and choreography/cinematography-wise I still think it's the best fight in the entire Daredevil series so far.
>>81616206
Forgot the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKCnrgVGgYw
>>81615757
>>81616190
>STRAWBERRIES
Hahaha this! Spider-man 3 may not have been perfect but it's moments like these that makes it really hard to hate on it.
>>81612525
Because he actually bleeds and actually looks like he's brutally beaten.
Most modern cape films have heroes getting hit and their skin and make-up is still flawless.
>>81614400
This. Spiderman jokes when he's in control or taken by surprise. This is Peter angry and fighting for his life.
>>81614967
>I feel like Otto should be one of those enemies where Peter should be able to take him down with one hit, but thanks to those arms of his, it's GETTING that one hit that's hard.
That was originally like that in the Ditko/Lee run, although Otto also had supernatural strength and durability there outside of his tentacles due to some superscience fuckery, he still couldn't take much of a punch from Spidey.
>>81615175
>disliking the extended bit
Nigga wut
That's one of the few times the decepticons actually land any hits on optimus.
Removing it makes him even more op than he already is
>>81615788
BOOM, not-Reynalds.
I'm surprised the spent money in making good if not frequent CG scenes.
>>81613068
that theme is so fucking hype.
>>81613386
thats why Winter Soldier was so good. Cap got the shit metal punched out of him, and shot like 3 times.
>>81612525
>he didn't watch Netflix Daredevil
>>81612525
Because Spider-Man was filmed like an actual movie. There were actors and sets. CGI wasn't a magical solution at this point so they had to use skillful direction to tell the story and evoke a sense of danger.
Modern Superhero movies are 98% CGI and so they aren't restricted to what they can actually film and they decide to make everything over-the-top and ridiculous.
>>81617494
Not a film.
These spiderman films to me are what Superman films should be like, but aren't. Colourful with a sense of humor, but dark and emotional when they need to be.
>>81612525
>>68042414
Stick to ine board.
>>81617590
I hope MCU spidey captures some of that tone.
I know Feige is a huge Spidey fanboy so i have hope.
The pinnacle of Spidey fight scenes for me are in Spectacular though.
>>81614308
Also Ant-Man is small scale.
>>81617661
Ant-Man was more of a heist movie than your typical cape film
Matt vs Frank was pretty good.
Much like in the comics Franks biggest asset was his durability. Matt was landing way more hits but Franks was just tanking them. Dude has always had a huge damage soak.
>>81617678
No it was not.
It was only a "heist" film because they tweaked Edgar Wright's screenplay which WAS a heist film.
Ant-Man was a completely straightforward generic cape film that had to pretend to be a heist film.
It checked all the boxes of heist film cliches but rushed through them without care or commitment so we could get to the important cgi fight scene at the end.
I mean, the trailers show that he fights yellowjacket so it's a forgone conclusion that the ENTIRE "stealing the thing" plot fails an is pointless.
>>81617745
It's hard to believe that Edgar Wright crybabies still exist when Ant-Man was a good film.
>>81613727
Raimi Spider-Man sucks. All three movies have bitch peter who is all "Muh MJ" and they all follow the same formula of the villain killing themselves at the end.
>>81617786
Didn't Peter literally murder Eddie though?
>>81617786
>comics peter
>not a melodramatic bitch
>>81617745
>but rushed through them without care or commitment
Elaborate, because you're using a whole lot of words to say a whole lot of nothing.
>>81617786
>being this insecure and dumb
>>81617804
and sandman lived.
>>81617766
>Ant-Man was a good film.
And-Man was objectively a bad movie. Like, if you like it that's fine, but just recognize you have poor taste and low standards for story telling, don't claim it was a good movie.
>>81617805
>feels basic human emotion
>has passion
yeah he's such a bitch
>>81617745
>it's a forgone conclusion that the ENTIRE "stealing the thing" plot fails
Do you even watch heist movies? That's kind of the point. Heist movies are all about the well-designed plan falling apart as they do it and how they turn it around.
Sneakers is basically Ant-man beat for beat in how their heist ends up failing at that movie is also great.
The Mission Impossible franchise is literally fueled by things going wrong in the heist and wrapping up at the end in a big over the top action scene you saw in the trailers.
>>81617808
yeah. it was a heist film.
the heist may have failed, and the result may have been a climactic superpower fight but it was a heist film.
>>81617804
Eddie killed himself. Peter tried to stop him.
>>81617855
How is throwing a pumpkin bomb at him trying to stop him from dying?
>>81617867
>this pumpkin bomb is just a prank bro.
>>81617808
The pacing of the movie was atrocious.
You spend like a solid half hour of build up before Scott even gets recruited to be Ant-Man, and then the whole training bit is rushed to the point that they introduce an entire plot arc(Janet's death) and resolve it inside of ten minutes.
Had to breeze by that so they could get to the retarded Falcon fight.
Then the actual "Heist" itself is utterly pointless from square one because we know before the movie begins that they don't accomplish their goal.
So by the end, none of the heist plot was ever important because they needed to end it on a super hero villain showdown anyway.
>>81617867
Peter pulled Eddie out of the symbiote, then threw the bomb at the symbiote. Eddie ran back to it to try and save it because he didn't want to be separated from it, Peter told him to get away, but then the bomb exploded before Peter could pull him away again. next time try to actually remember what happened in the movie before you comment on a scene.
>>81617837
>Sneakers
>MI series
Someone has some good taste.My voice is my passport, verify me
>>81617906
Come on, Anon. Spiderman 3 is the movie we pretend didn't exist so there's no surprise we forget.
>>81617906
That's directly Peter's fault.
If he wasn't a retard he would've webbed Eddie up first.
>>81617955
no, it's more Eddie's fault for being a retard and running toward a ticking bomb. literally the only reason Peter didn't web him and pull him away again is because the writers wanted to kill venom by the end of the movie and that's the best they could come up with.
>>81617944
spiderman 3 isn't even the bad one anymore. since the TASM movies most of us intelligent people have realized how OK spiderman 3 is rather than bad.
>>81617837
>Heist movies are all about the well-designed plan falling apart as they do it and how they turn it around.
Except no part of Ant-Man's heist was well designed and they didn't turn shit around, it just broke out into an absurd series of action sequences.
>>81618076
No, Spider-man 3 is still shitty.
It's just less shitty than the ASM films.
>>81618090
>Except no part of Ant-Man's heist was well designed
>>81618076
>>81618091
Say what you guys want but ASM2 had the best Spidey fight scenes to date.
>>81618242
The entire heist is only pulled off because Michael Pena keeps punching people in the face.
>>81618276
i fail to see the problem
>>81618276
Yes, and?You fail to state that ants were used in breaking in as well as tampering with security footage as well as for scouting and travel.
>>81618263
>>81617661
Meh. It was still trying to sell destructive weapons to people who want to destroy the world (HYDRA) in the end.
>>81618263
the scene where Spider-man goes all spider on lizard webbing him up at the school is better than every fight in TASM2.
>>81617830
>literally the best and most inventive superpowered fight scenes ever
>bad movie
>>81615363
But Wolverine isn't a God. Those point blank shotgun blasts would have had him down and out for at least 10-15 minutes before he healed. And that's pretty damn generous.
I hate super-buffed wolverine incarnations. The dude can heal, he's not the fucking Mummy walking around with his internals exposed or hanging out.
>>81613190
whats wrong with spiderman 1?
>>81612525
Raimi is such a weird director. Somehow that scene is goofy and brutal at the same time. I'd bounce between thinking "oh fuck that was cheesy", to "hey that's pretty cool" watching it. He's got a great sense of the way the action should flow, and how things should move, but he also loves to punctuate things with the over-the-top cartoony highlights. It ends up being an action scene that feels like slapstick comedy.
I think that's why I never really clicked with the Raimi Spider-Man movies. Those two styles just do not mesh together well for me.
>>81613727
I still think it's a great movie, but the last act is kinda weak and the pointless Venom + weird retcon kinda leave you with a bittersweet feeling
>>81612525
immediately i think its because Tobey is screaming all the goddamn time, hes taking these hits and really selling them, dust flies up when they take a hit, its all short hard looking punches no flipping about
>>81612525
This version of spidermans suit might still be the best version in cinema
>>81612525
its hard to imagine a superhero movie today having something like this as a final fight
its why I was dissapointed somewhat in Winter Soldier. Up until the third act everything was pretty grounded, some CGI futuristic plane stuff but nothing crazy.
then executives went "WE NEED MORE EXPLOSIONS. LETS BLOW UP THREE HELLICARRIERS!"
>>81613957
>>81612610
gotta credit Tobys performance too. every hit has him in agony. you see fight scenes now where the characters shrug it off. even when they're hurt its not that convincing.
Peter here literally goes falsetto after being slammed to the ground.
>FIX MY FUCKING DOOR YOU SLAVIC PIECE OF SHIT
Was this really necessary Raimi?
I wish any of the Marvel movies today would have half as much heart as the Raimi Spider-man films.
The only scene in any of them that came close to making me feel something was when Cap gets shot at the end of WS and just keeps going.
>>81618684
>the best and most inventive superpowered fight scenes ever
dude, they got small and threw punches, then got big and threw punches. it wasnt that inventive.
Ant-man was a pretty generic superhero movie and I'm surprised anons act like its so great. it was riddled with bad bacing and poorly written scenes and a forgettable antagonist. it had some flavor in the comedy but it fell back on the classic marvel studio house style
>>81617468
And then he stood back like he wasn't even shot at by grenade launcher. Until of course plot demands him to stand down for Bucky to have dramatic moments.
>>81620653
>forgettable antagonist
He's still leagues ahead of most MCU villains.
Not that it's exactly praise, because all MCU villains except for maybe Wilson Fisk suck, but still.
>>81613285
Ma nigga, have you read The Last Gun on Earth? Spider Man is pretty unstoppable if he ever goes evil. Secret Wars he took out the xmen on his own till cripples mind roofied him.
>>81614047
Man, for Bane being such a big guy, it was a disappointing fightfor us
>>81612525
Because McGuire sounds and looks like a bitch plus not too much CGI. Still fuck Spider-Man movies. I can't believe people think any of them are good.
>>81614256
>>81614299
>>81614299
>hating on the stairway fight
Lolwut?
>>81614232
There was a bit of pointless flipping in S1 as well. Really bugs me after noticing it so much from Arrow and how DD is supposed to be all super gritty
Sandman's introduction with the locket falling out of his fingers is still top 10 for me
>>81613068
This needs to be THE Spider-man theme. Till the end of time.
>>81621079
DD doing flips and shit is actually very in-character. He was an acrobat and boxer first before he was a ninja-lite.
>>81621053
as I said before, bad lighting and bad camera angles, and some of the punches felt weak.
>>81612942
Superman 1 and 2, kid
>>81614172
Let's not forget the prison fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLz8GMZHmqc
>>81614172
Reminded me of this sort of.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmWo7m3zhZs
>>81621482
I read on an interview that the hallway fight was specifically inspired from that.
>>81612525
Its a great fight, but some of that CG is aweful
>>81613727
YOU'LL GET MY OPINION ONCE YOU FIX MY FUCKING DOOR
>>81621600
>It's a great fight, but these effects from 14 years ago look outdated
>>81612525
Saaaa
https://youtu.be/DKzHh55gcfE
>>81621625
They looked pretty bad at the time, DESU, fampai.
>>81621635
No they didn't.
>>81612525
Dontell harry
>>81621635
Not really.
>>81621237
Sh, it's /co/, don't talk about irrelevant comics material no one reads.
>>81617925
JUST GIVE ME THE BAHX, MAHTY
>>81620653
I love how people like you use
> objectively bad
Or
> pretty generic
But never fucking provide proof for anything you say. Fucking put up or shut up
>>81612525
Jesus Christ, I'd forgotten how strong Raimi's Goblin was. what the fuck, isn't Spiderman supposed to be capable of benchin 5 tons and beyond? How's he gettis shit pushed in by a guy in power armor?
>>81613501
Kryptonian force field nigga. And he bled a bit on Zod's ship :)
>>81622371
>goblin armor
Norman has super strength as well though.
>>81614308
And that's the weird irony of filmmaking.
Smaller budgets don't let you do as much, but sometimes that's a good thing. Sometimes it's the constraints on a film that end up making it good, because the directors, writers, actors, effects guys, etc have to do that much better to make up for not being able to just throw money at every problem.
>>81622371
Was that stated in the movie? Honestly can't remember. And also, can you lift your maximum weights at any given time? I mean, look at Spidey, he's exhausted.
>>81613957
ah, the days where Stan Lee cameo's weren't giant toothy winks towards the camera
>>81622650
Still bummed we didn't get the one planned for Guardians where Stan Lee's just randomly sitting in one of the Collector's vaults in the background.
>>81622549
nah m, jst going off what the comix have shown. And yeah, good point, he just took a grenade to the face now I think about it...its got to have done hell to his inner ear and thrown him off balance
>>81622465
wait, I've forgotten like 30% of this movie. Was there some green formula the Goblin was taking to make him stronger, and one of the side effects was his psychosis?
>>81612525
Cus it doesnt end before it gets to the point of down and dirty fisticufs. Its a real fight not a DBZ wanabe super power battle.
>>81622876
Basically, yeah.
>>81622137
alright, you want proof?
How about the fact that Ant Man's main plot is the nearly the EXACT same thing as Iron Mans? Company CEO wants to use new technology to sell to terrorists and other evil shit while the real inventor wants to keep it to himself for good.
Or how we have too poorly construed emotional peaks of the film back to back? First with Scott in the car with Janet. Of all the places to film an emotional scene, you have it in a cool car parked in the driveway? Then right after, you have Hank reveal how his wife died, with the characters all just standing around in the living room. You don't have the characters get over their emotional baggage in the middle of the movie with barely any conflict. With these two scenes you can tell how much was sacrificed due to all the rewriting.
The shoehorned Avengers tie in when Scott has to get a random macguffin and fight falcon was completely unnecessary. How is it that an Avengers facility can be broken into with zero prep work yet they make a big deal over breaking into Hanks former company? Also, how was Scott able to reveal his identity to Falcon, yet isn't immediately found and arrested? He isn't exactly in hiding.
Hanks reasoning for not just getting his daughter to use the suit was faulty. Yes, he doesnt want her in danger, but he's ok with her being with the murderous psychopath during the heist? and then in the mid credits scene he has a new suit for her anyway? So he changed his mind?
There's no denying the huge asspull that was Scott getting out of the quantum realm. it was literally the power of the heart. they wrote themselves into a corner for an emotional climax but didn't bother to figure out how he gets out.
speaking of emotional appeals that barely work, how about that ant pet? it would've worked if the ant had any actual screen time. instead its like two scenes where scott just names him, but its not like the ant did anything special for us to care about him.
>>81623537
Calm down Yellowjacket. I know they killed you but still.
>>81615943
Danny Elfman did the OST for Rami's Spiderman and Burtons Bamtan
>>81623776
>anon provides well worded critiques
>"kek stop being mad lol"
>>81623537
Next you'll be saying that there's more than one western revolving around greedy railroad magnates trying to exploit common folk.
>>81624131
>>81624206
>"how is ant man generic???"
>points out how
>"IT DOESNT COUNT"
>>81612525
Because Disney and its shit of non-violence had not yet put their claws into the superhero movie.
>>81623993
>well worded critiques
>on 4chan
When will you learn that it's all just bullshit in the end?
>>81612525
Because it's one of the last Superhero fights that actually has real people fighting and not CGI models. It was in a small place instead of a big city. Also, in other superhero movies, the hero is trying to stop the villain from doing some evil plan, in this fight Peter is trying to stop the Goblin from killing him and then killing everyone else he loves which makes it more personal.
>>81613957
Butterfingers :3
>>81618629
That was such a minor part of it though, the main focus was Darren's Yellowjacket suit and him having Pym tech.
And there was no big battle to save the world.
>>81617830
>And-Man was objectively a bad movie.
That's not what that word means.
You don't see the hypocrisy in spouting your own opinion then trying to disqualify the opinions of others?
Ant-Man has a high RT score and was successful enough to warrant a sequel.
Objectively, it is a good film. You can argue RT's metrics, you can argue the merits of a film's gross, but those are quantifiable measurements.
>>81623537
>How about the fact that Ant Man's main plot is the nearly the EXACT same thing as Iron Mans?
So?
>Or how we have too poorly construed emotional peaks of the film back to back? First with Scott in the car with Janet. Of all the places to film an emotional scene, you have it in a cool car parked in the driveway? Then right after, you have Hank reveal how his wife died, with the characters all just standing around in the living room.
That's no-frills storytelling. The oldest type of setup is putting actors on a stage an having them act. Should they have been disarming a bomb while these scenes happened? Maybe riding a CGI train? The normality helped sell the humanity of the scene.
>The shoehorned Avengers tie in
And? You're arguing content rather than quality. The mini-break-in was a practice run for Scott. Showed that he could work in the field.
>Hanks reasoning for not just getting his daughter to use the suit was faulty.
That's the nature of emotions. People make irrational choices, particularly from trauma.
>There's no denying the huge asspull that was Scott getting out of the quantum realm.
They established the belt and the disks, it was a mcguyver situation. And a reasonable heroic twist for a superhero film.
>>81627836
>That's the nature of emotions. People make irrational choices, particularly from trauma.
Let's not even start that we're talking about Hank "I have major anger issues" Pym of all people. The fact that he even goes out of his way to say that he saw too much of himself in Darren Cross means that even MCU Hank isn't exempt from his cuckoo origins.
>>81621423
I greatly enjoyed that scene. Hell, every Frank scene was pretty fun. Wish he played a bigger role in the final battle, as looking forward to him franking a few more ninjas then just the three
>>81620760
>This shitty character is better than those other shitty characters
That doesn't make him good????
Fucking comic fags exist in degrees of shit. If something is marginally less terrible than something else, that makes it amazing by your autist standards.
>>81612525
>Call me a Power Ranger one more time
>>81612661
The best capeshit fight ever, shit is fucking GOAT.
>>81612942
1 is one of a better but 2 was the best ever.
>>81618633
yup
>>81622137
The entire plot is contrived. You have Hope, the bitch who knows all the ins and outs, has the training and hatched the scheme to steal the Yellow Jacket in the first place, for all intents and purposes, the movie should be about her.
They give her all these positive qualities specifically so that she can get back-benched by a man.
And I know what you're going to say
>"But Hank didn't want her to risk her life because of what happened to Janet!"
Okay let's talk about that sad excuse for character drama. We're introduced to Hope and she's a complete bitch. She and Hank are on shit terms and she resents him, and now she hates Scott too for usurping her rightful place.
So then we reveal through a completely scene destroying exposition dump that Hope's mother died and that Hank is supposedly lying about how it happened so fuck him.
Then, INSIDE OF TEN FUCKING MINUTES, they completely resolve that whole plot point with Hank telling Hope what happened, and that's why he doesn't want her to use the Ant-man suit because bluh bluh I can't lose you too.
Then, like flipping a fucking light switch, Hope isn't a bitch anymore, her and Hank are a happy family and now she also wants to fuck Scott.
So you know, large portions of the plot of this film are just very thinly written, for starters. Another huge problem I have with this movie is the awful pacing. There's so much build up to scott first stealing the ant-suit and all that shit before Hank ever even proposes to him. Then the entire "training sequence" is raced through because we have to shove one of our contracted actors into a scene to connect this gay movie to our other gay movies AND we still need enough time at the end of the movie to have a boring CGI fight.
>>81612525
I have never felt such a powerful impact on a capeshit fight scene other than Spidy vs Sandman or Batman89 vs Joker.
This movie is almost 14 years old
I feel so old
>>81617506
>Because Spider-Man was filmed like an actual movie. There were actors and sets. CGI wasn't a magical solution at this point so they had to use skillful direction to tell the story and evoke a sense of danger.
Fuck we will never have this again.
>>81629403
We've got Mad Max for that still.
>>81629153
Almost every character in the movie is completely one-dimensional, and you have several redundant, useless characters on who they waste so much screen time.
Scott's three sidekick buddies are some of the most egregious racial stereotypes I have ever seen on film. Michael Pena is actually a great actor, and he's being relegated to playing a fucking fast talking mexican con-man and spouting out "esse" and "holmes" every three seconds. Then there's the thuggish black fellow who's specialty is boosting cars. And the overpoweringly Slavic guy who is always wearing a full track suit. Like, holy shit. I'm a white man and even I feel insulted by these caricatures.
Ultimately their roles in the movie are frivolous. The Slav guy is supposed ti be some master hacker or whatever, but in typical movie hacking fashion he's got a bunch of clearly fake displays on his super laptop that read [HACKING MAINFRAME 76% COMPLETE]
The black guy distracts a cop for three seconds by stealing a car. And Actually to his credit, the entire actual heist scene is only successful because Michael Pena punched like three people in the face. Like, if it was as easy as knocking someone out and then stealing a security card, why plan a heist at all?
Then there's the most utterly generic villain in the history of comic book movies. Darren Cross has only one motivation, regardless of what it is he's doing and that's "Being as cartoonishly evil as possible at all times."
I mean, his whole plan to steal the pym particles so he can make an army of tiny murder machines is pretty generic to start.
But like, he brings some military contractor guys into see the Yellow Jacket and when one of these guys is like "I don't think it's a very good weapon of mass destruction" Cross just literally murders him on the spot. Is nobody on Earth going to wonder about how this fucking guy mysteriously disappeared after touring Pymtech?
>>81617494
Though wouldnt we still be aliens to them?
>>81624131
>>81624131
>trying to use sarcasm to invalidate good points
"This is 4chan so I can shitpost in peace"
>>81624791
It's his modus operandi. Don't mind him
I actually think the Batman and Superman fight is unnecesarily slow and brutal for what I was expecting
A thread where there is great discussion and like minded individuals...holy shit /co/ can we keep it this way?
>>81629770
Oh, and yeah I know what you're going to say again.
>"There was that completely throw-away line of dialogue where Hank says Pym-Particles can affect your brain chemistry"
Sure, okay let's say that did have any relevance whatsoever on the rest of the movie. There is not a shred of evidence to suggest that Cross EVER came into contact with Pym Particles throughout the entire film.
He's present when they're experimenting on how to shrink fucking mice or sheep or whatever, but so is Hope, so reasonably she should also be crazy if that was what sent Cross to evil town.
SPEAKING OF PYM PARTICLES! That plot device in the movie is completely inconsistent and really makes no fucking sense.
The basic concept is fine. "Super shit that can make things shrink or grow" okay I got that, but how do they fucking work exactly?
This movie makes liberal use of cutting away from the action so that they don't have to show how something grows or shrinks because that would be too much work I guess.
The tank keychain for example. Hank just has it on his key ring and then cut to exterior shot of the building and a full sized tank driving out of it. How did it get big? Does Hank have an aerosol can full of pym particles that he sprays shit with?
(As an aside, after building up the fucking tank for the entire movie, what a fucking waste. They literally do nothing with it.)
Another such scene is when Scott climbs aboard the helicopter Cross is escaping in. We see Cross sitting in the helicopter, cut to Scott hanging off the landing gear, and then climbing inside, and within the five fucking seconds since we cut away from cross, he's just somehow in the fucking Yellow Jacket suit which would have had to been un-shrunk and then put on in full.
It's clearly a case of someone reviewing the script and asking "So how does he get the suit on?"
"Doesn't matter we'll just cut to him wearing it."
So then of course Cross does the most evil thing he can think of and threatens a six year old.
>>81629153
>>81629770
>>81630117
Literally who are you talking to? No one is going to read all of that.
>>81630045
>great discussion and like minded individuals
I'm guessing you're not counting that one guy who's endlessly shitposting about Ant-Man right? In that case, then yeah sure.
>>81630045
Go get cucked, faggot.
>>81630117
Which leads to what I can only assume is supposed to fill in the space where in a GOOD movie a protagonist would normally have to overcome some kind of challenge to win the day. The entire thing about having to shrink down to the molecular level or whatever is just retarded and utterly contrived.
It was like the idiot who wrote it was like
"Okay so this character can shrink. What kind of feat will he have to perform that will challenge him as a character? I KNOW, HE'LL HAVE TO SHRINK...EVEN SMALLER!"
So they insert the absolutely silly excuse of "Oh man, titanium plates or whatever."
Like, I can hardly put into words how absurd this is as the climax.
Which honestly is another problem this movie has. Pretty much none of the "emotional" elements have any weight to them at all.
Like I mentioned earlier, the conflict between Hope and Hank is introduced and resolved within ten minutes, so why should I care?
I guess we're supposed to feel bad for Scott because his life is shitty, but so much of the scenes about his shitty life are played for laughs so, I dunno, boo hoo?
And the whole empty "relationship" between Scott and Hope that pops out of nowhere because they're the opposite sex so I guess they just have to fall in love?
Ant-Man is not a good movie. If you like it that's fine, but don't act like it's any good. Just grow up and admit that you like bad movies.
At a minute and 12 seconds Green Goblin performs a textbook Rider Kick
>>81613501
Seriously. If they're on the same level why werent they getting fucked up? It's not Superman vs a mugger, it's Superman vs Superman
>>81630280
>>81630363
>Someone is explaining why they don't like ant-man after I demanded they explain why they don't like ant-man! what a loser! I'm not actually going to entertain any opinions that don't agree with my own! Ha ha joke's on you!
>>81630467
>they're the opposite sex so I guess they just have to fall in love
This may shock your puritan sensibilities, but sometimes adults just like to have sex with each other.
>>81614323
https://youtu.be/DVUjn9KmgRs
I'm ashamed I immediately recognized the butt rock, too.
>>81630602
Except that it's presented in the film as a romantic interaction.
>>81630117
>how does the movie super science thing based off of a comic super science thing work?
>>81630545
>I
Jokes on you, I didn't demand it, some other anon did. His walls of text are just clogging up what was a pretty good thread about fights.
Also stop samefagging.
>>81630701
>It's made up!
That's not an excuse for bad writing.
>>81630894
>It's made up!
>That's not an excuse for bad writing.
Just like your so-called critique?
