She looked like a loving mother except for the whole stay in the tower thing. What do you think.
Rapunzel was the real villain.
it was pretty ambiguous but the takeaway from the movie was that Gothel's obsession for the flower's vitality-renewal was the reason for kidnapping Rapunzel and raising her as a daughter. To Gothel, Rapunzel was seen as the flower first, adoptive daughter second.
I do wish they had fit in some much needed dialogue at the end to better explain Gothel's motives and elaborate their relationship falling apart, but whatever. Maybe Disney didn't want their villain to be even remotely sympathetic as usual so her death would be easier to accept by the audience.
Her teasing Rapunzel in the beginning did contribute to Rapunzel's cute naivety and eagerness to learn about the world outside, though. Gothel definitely contributed to raising a cute daughter.
>>78190127
I'm just surprised by how nobody ever said they'd fuck her. Chick is hot.
>>78190127
yes, somewhat
>>78190371
I missed the tangled threads when the movie came out. I'm sure this has been discussed pretty heavily.
>>78190371
She was, there's not nearly enough art for her.
>>78190371
Have you not been on /co/? I've said it myself several times, she's got that sexy middle aged white woman thing going on.
>>78190127
I honestly think she did. Too bad Disney didn't touch that subject.
the animators were really subtle about gothel's true feelings
there's this one scene where she goes to cup rapunzel's face and kiss her forhead, but if you actually look closley, she's kisses her hair
she's not like a classic villain who's upfront about her intentions, cackling and what not. she does it through manipulation, gaslighting, etc.
>>78190127
If she loved Rapunzel, it certainly wasn't as a daughter. She loved her, at best, like a pet: any happiness she desired for Rapunzel had to be on her own terms.
>>78190371
I absolutely would
>If she wasn't such a psycho-wacko bitch
>>78190470
Damn straight
>>78190127
She had two main motivations.
1.Youth
2. Loneliness
Gothel originally only cared about sustaining her youth, but after raising Rapunzel she became dependent on her company.
It's hinted in Mother Knows Best (Reprise) that Gothel was manipulated and thrown away by a man in her past, which is why she is the way she is.
All her teasing of Repunzel is just her projecting her own insecurities.
She's a tragic character who fell to the darkside.
>>78190371
>I'm just surprised by how nobody ever said they'd fuck her
Is that a joke?
>>78190722
well now im sad
>>78190127
Would have been a nice 'twist' if she did but Disney went with the cookie cutter routine instead. Shame.
>>78190157
>only person she'd ever known in 18 years dies and she feels nothing
Rapunzel was a cold bitch.
>older sister loves this movie
>bought the blu-ray to give to her for christmas
>but I've never seen it, somehow have avoided spoilers for the most part (all I know is there's some vikings, wacky horse and lizard hijinks, the crazy grandma rots away due to not eating rapunzels hair or something and she's not her real mom (I dunno, I saw tangled ever after on the Disney Shorts on netflix so that's what I'm guessing))
Might be time to watch it soon
>>78190722
This
Just listen to that song with all that in mind.
Gothel essentially views Rapunzel as her past self. She genuinely believed that Finn was just using Rapunzel as she herself was once used.
>>78191081
>I'd never let anyone else manipulate you.
>wahhhhhh the evil child enslaving murderous woman with dark hair did nothing wrong because she was sad
Am I in a Once Upon a Time thread or something?
>>78191438
And she was hot.
>>78190371
>Would leave the tower for days at a time
>Would come back looking haggard and feeling tired
>Would get Rapunzel to restore her youth and lustre and then set off once again
Bitch was getting railed like crazy.
>>78191438
The Gothel we got to know was indeed a bad person, but that doesn't mean she was always like that.
Also, she didn't enslave Rapunzel or murder anyone (as far as we know)
>>78191597
Well she kidnapped and imprisoned.
>>78191623
She had no other choice. It was either leave the castle empty handed and die an immediate death, or take the baby and live.
I would have taken the baby in that situation too.
>>78191597
She totally enslaved Rapunzel.
>>78191674
And the imprisonment?
No I don't know how people can interpret her as anything less than a complete monster.
>>78191674
She imprisoned Rapunzel and forced her to cook and clean for her while denying Rapunzel any opportunity for a self-identity.
>>78191081
No, she genuinely believed Flynn would be just like her (Gothel) and manipulate Rapunzel for her own end. Because Gothel is a narcissist and doesn't really believe you can care about something outside what it does for you.
She wasn't trying to protect Rapunzel, she was trying to keep the control she had over her to sustain her lifestyle.
>>78190127
I think she was dumb, she should have been farming Rapunzel for more youth flowers and maybe even selling some to make a profit.
http://www.hentai-foundry.com/pictures/user/Nachtmahr/269259/Breeding-of-new-Sapling
>>78190963
>only person she'd ever known in 18 years dies and she feels nothing
Maybe we'll get some hints that Gothel's death did affect her in the new show?
>Rapunzel reading her new room after being reunited with her real parents
>they come in to wish her good night
>"we love you, Rapunzel"
>she says "I love you more" out of habit
>they just smile and leave the room
>Rapunzel watches them go
>whispers "I love you most" and blows out her candle
>>78191546
You think she the guys finish inside her?
>>78190127
I've argued again and again that Gothel, even in her own misguided, sick and twisted way really did "love" Rapunzel and would've locked her up to keep her safe, but everytime people just kind of deny it.
As
>>78190356
said, it's somewhat ambiguous.
But given that all those years Gothel didn't try to separate Rapunzel and her hair/magical healing powers and did try to bring her home safely, I'm inclined to believe she had some sense of preservation for her daughters well-being.
Was it an "Ideal love" as we'd think of it? Probably not. But it was some kind of love, selfish or not.
![tumblr_ny30zeT66K1t0xyebo2_1280[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/eqahXkT.jpg "tumblr_ny30zeT66K1t0xyebo2_1280[1].jpg")
>>78192105
Depends on if the flower is a natural birth control or fertility increaser
>>78190537
That's not as uncommon in the real world as you'd think.
>>78191081
It makes me wish I could see a hypothetical situation where Rapunzel never left and stayed with Mommy. Would Gothel have taken her with her, or stayed chain to the tower with Rap indefinitely? Would she have imparted some sort of influence or maturing care as Rapunzel grew up? I really wish I could've seen their relationship more.
She was good enough to go and make her favorite food for her.
>>78190963
>Rapunzel was a cold bitch.
>Raised in a virtual prison all her life with no socializing by a cold hearted old crone
Nah she just contracted super-autism.
>>78191623
>>78191701
Enslaved prisoners don't get the luxuries or sentiment Gothel displayed. If she REALLY intended to keep Rapunzel just as a magic hair-token she would've locked her up in chains since her birth. The amount of freedom she did give Rapunzel (Which isn't THAT much more sheltered than some real life parents- you know the ones, they homeschool their kids and are stuck in the past? Those ones?) was sprung out of love. She'd have been lonely and empty otherwise.
>People actually calling out Gothel on being evil and not even bothering to mention what the king and queen did.
Okay, it's all fair game, then. They fucking stole from Gothel; they stole from an old lady that was pretty much on life support. It was to save the queen and her baby, but tough titty. When you look at it, was anyone really evil in this situation?
>>78192282
Classic abuser tactic. Same with getting the special paints. Do something nice every once in a while also guilting the shit out of her because it's SO much trouble and so FAR out of the way but I'm doing this because I'm a good person
>>78192105Am I shit for wanting to see some Gothel/Rapunzel slash?
>>78192408
Everything on or grown Corona sovereign land ultimately belongs to the royal family.
>>78192401
Rapunzel.
She left without telling her mother, abandoned her because she got the hots for a thief, than got the thief off scott free after killing her mother remorselessly.
People often cite Merida as a "Villain protagonist" (For wanting her freedom no less), but how the hell can they blame Merida for what she did to her mother when she atleast tried to reconcile it? Rapunzel straight up dusted her hoe and went tingly-bits into Flynn dick, she's selfish as fuck.
>>78192454
Meant for >>78192401
>>78192408
How did she abuse Rapunzel? There was no sign that she ever hurt or hit her. Is it abuse just because she wanted Rap for her immortality and so she could continue her legacy, which apparently means she didn't love her?
If that's true every father or mother that's ever wanted a heir just for some kind of psuedo-immortality is an abuser. Gothel's was just a more literal manifestation than most.
>>78192401
>>78192479
>>78192484
>MAH STOLEN PLANT
THEN WHY DIDN'T SHE MOVE THE PLANT HUH?
CHECKMATE FAGGOTS.
>>78192454
Horseshit. If you were in the king and queen's or Gothel's position would you have done anything different? It was either Gothel or them, and naturally Gothel chose herself. If your government asked you to kill your mom or yourself, would you do it? Let me answer that, nope.
>>78192479
Rapunzel couldn't be blamed either. 18 year old girls develop a thirst that can't be quenched well until they're middle aged women.
>>78192537
Gothel hits every single sign of an emotionally abusive parent. You don't have to hit your child to fuck them up
>>78192381
She was kidnapped, not allowed to leave, just because she got some luxuries doesn't make her not a prisoner. Hell there are legit prisoners of the government that get just as decent,
>>78192537
Because she purposefully undermined her confidence to keep her afraid and subservient. Abuse isn't purely physical.
>>78192602
Okay I cannot blame her completely because she was socially isolated and Gothel kind of made her retarded. Apparently Rap could read and chart stars and shit otherwise, but wasn't morally or socially responsible.
But even with her lady-lust it's irreconcilable how coldly and thanklessly she reacted to the woman who raised and cared for her, for 18 years. She truly is Gothel's daughter.
>>78192675
I kind of agree there. Not even an ounce of sadness.
>>78192629
>Kidnapped
Gothel's flower was stolen, what else was she going to do after contaminating Rapunzel? Her daughter could've been burned as a witch without her intervention for all we know.
>not allowed to leave
>WOW YOU WON'T LET ME RUN AWAY THAT MAKES YOU AN ABUSER MOMMMMMM!
This is basic parenting 101. Rapunzel had less freedom than most but in Medieval Europe? Gothel was technically right. She might have had shady intentions, but her song wasn't wrong. In most fairy tails the maiden ends up dead or raped and these are cautionary tales for the olden german folk.
The she wasn't murder-raped by the first guy she met was a miracle of disney magic. Gothel made the right call.
>Because she purposefully undermined her confidence to keep her afraid and subservient.
So she didn't always offer the best encouragement. It's not like she tore down her paintings or tried to keep her powerfully ignorant.
Not being encouraging =/= not letting her daughter grow. With how much we saw Rapunzel do and know with her first song, she actually raised her amazingly if she let her learn all that.
>>78190963
>feels nothing
The animators included the shot of Rapunzel reaching out for a reason.
>>78192798
>tried to keep her powerfully ignorant.
Naw, she just taught her that everyone else in the world was an evil monster who wanted to kill her, steal her hair, or both. She just constantly undermined any self-confidence Rapunzel tried to have. She just constantly put down Rapunzel's looks, confidence, self-esteem, etc. She just constantly dismissed Rapunzel's concerns.
>if she let her learn all that
>let her
Yikes.
My own interpretation, shabby as it is, is that Gothel only saw Rapunzel as a tool/flower at first but did grow to love her and identify value in her as a person.
Kind of like a reverse Stockholm Syndrome, she fell in love with her kidnapped. How could she not? She wouldn't have kept her for 18 years if she was "Just" going to be a prisoner, that's a fuckload of work to play jailkeeper. I cannot see that kind of investment as being possible without some kind of love involved.
It doesn't make her not a shitty parent, she treated her daughter shitty, but it wasn't out of negativity or bitterness. Rather she wasn't really fit to be a mother, some people just aren't. The point about investment remains.
>>78192798
>stolen
bitch never made any public claim to it, just covered it with a basket. Can I walk onto crown land and claim a tree without telling anyone and get mad when it is cut down? Can I then proceed to commit a crime out of revenge?
>>78192930
Lima syndrome
>>78192894
>Naw, she just taught her that everyone else in the world was an evil monster who wanted to kill her, steal her hair, or both.
What part about this this taking place in Medieval Europe don't you understand? No such thing as Child Protection Services or Human rights here. She wasn't really wrong, and with how Rapunzel trusted the very first person she met who intended on robbing her, Gothel was well aware how naive she was.
>>if she let her learn all that
>let her
>Yikes.
It's the modern day equivalent of not letting your kid watch the discovery channel or learning algebra because "Satan" or "Muh Libhrahls!", it happens. Parents often watch carefully what their children learn and allow themselves to dabble with, so yes "Let."
>>78192931
If a baby OR a tree swallows your magic immortality flower, fuck those niggas that babby/tree is yours now.
>>78192930
Basically I'm saying she didn't REALLY love her daughter, some twisted part of her just managed to convince herself that she did in order to bare raising her, and the part of her that wanted her magic hair convinced itself that she wanted a daughter too.
In the same way kidnappees brainwash themselves into loving their kidnappers to cope, she did it with Rapunzel. Genuine love? Obviously not. But there was something there, even if it was a kind of sick love.
>>78192975
Ah, that than.
>>78192040
>she has a daughter
>names her Gothel
That would make me cry, I think.
>>78192798
>for all we know
Nah, they clearly condoned magic if they were hunting magic flowers to eat.
>basic parenting
nah, parents let their kids go outside and introduce them to other people
>>78192381
Yeah, I think that was 2 parts selfishness, 1 part convenience. She had a prisoner whom she had to keep friendly (singing a magic song, being careful with her hair). If Rapunzel died, who's to say her hair would retain the youth-spell, you know? So Gothel gives her nice things occasion to appeal to her remaining placid and stupid. It'd be the same as if someone had a dog that crapped diamonds, that dog would be kept in a smallish cage, indoors, and fed very well. Any excersize it got would be purely to extend its life (and diamond production).
>>78192479
She probably would have felt more remorse had she not stabbed her boyfriend and tried to have her chained up in a hitherto unknown dark basement.
>>78193343
>nah, parents let their kids go outside and introduce them to other people
>Citation NeededSounds like someone was never homeschooled.
>>78193056
>it's okay to abuse somebody because it takes place in a fantasy version of the past
Good lord.
>>78194393
I'm sure nonabusive parents who homeschool understand the importance of children socializing.
>>78195203
>A time when you could die from super AIDS (The black plague) or be killed for walking down the street was just a fantasy, life has always been like my comfy suburban life happy and safe!
>Sheltering and protecting someone to any degree at all is automatically a form of abuse unless that protector is catering backwards for me
Holy cow.
>>78195203
Not to mention in this fantasy version people are actually unrealistically nice, she won over a bar of presumable criminals and cutthroats by telling them about her dreams which just sort of adds to Gothel's abuse since the horrors of the real world are much lesser in this reality. In fact all legitimate danger she risked was at the hands of Gothel.
>>78195260
Clearly the plague wasn't happening.
>>78195236
Yes..as long as it's with other nice Christian schoolkids and people that never question their views or risk their moral safety in the slightest.
That to me is as much a form of "Abuse", if you consider it that, as Gothel did.
>>78195371
Not exactly, atleast they were letting the kids get out and not outright denying them socialization albeit limiting it to their shallow worldview. Not good for the kid but not really abuse.
>>78195534
So you consider it not abuse just because they're locked in a figurative prison, whereas Rapunzel is only locked in a literal physical prison?
Rapunzel seemed far less brainwashed and sheltered than a lot of kids in their real life equivalent atleast. Not letting her go as she was wasn't abuse on Gothels part, for heavens sake one of the very first person Rapunzel met, she fell in love with, a guy like twice her age. If it weren't for her luckily being royalty she never would have survived long.
>>78190127
She was a mother, she was not a parent and she was definitely not a good person.
So an older female cares for a baby she took care of her since it's inception. Of course she will create some form of motherly instinct, it's natural. But she's still a bitch though.
Nah she was pretty irredeemable.
She could have just moved into some outskirt town when Rapunzel was 8, braided her hair and not raised a child who longs to run off headfirst into danger, probably would have just married the cobblers son or some shit and everyone lives happily ever after. Instead she was selfish and raised a daughter who would eventually kill her. Go figure.
Though i do wonder if Rapunzels powers could have extended to keeping herself young forever.
>>78191059
It's one of the best Disney movies, fairytale movies and 3D animated kids movies of the last 5 years.
Is it wrong that I want to get my dick wet in Rapunzel while Gothel pegs me at the same time?
>>78190963
I do think it'd be interesting if there was a disney-type movie where the protagonist was raised by a villain, but does end with the villainous parental figure realizing they don't have it in them to harm the protagonist and giving up.
>>78195260
Oh yeah, you sure saw lots of plague and people being murdered for walking down the street in the film, didn't you?
I'm not saying medieval times didn't happen, fucktard, I'm saying "HURRRR DAAAAHHH PEOPLE DIDN'T HAV NO RIGHTS IN DA MEDIEVAL TIMES" doesn't apply to the film, which is set in a fantasy world vaguely inspired by several different eras, where none of the things you're talking about actually applied.
>>78195858
That's when the lieutenant stabs the villain in the back, taking over the role as villain and giving the protagonist a reason to fight them.
>>78195791
You forgot about her magic hair powers. And the fact that the King and Queen had a her portrait plastered everywhere.
>>78195837
My dick only gets wet to the thought of Rapunzel pegging Gothel.
>>78195676
I don't consider it abuse because there's atleast actual socialization, it's a much lesser form of what Gothel did. They allowed their kids to meet and interact with people not to mention there's likely no purposeful intent of making their kids just functional enough to get what they want like with Gothel. So Religious Homeschoolers, MIGHT NOT be abuse depending on the situation, Gothel's situation is however clearly abuse.
>>78195858
>Tangled ends with Gothel leaving Rapunzel to her new life and wasting away alone in her tower
>outside her tower since she's no actual way to get in now.
>>78195893
Than why was Gothel singing about it? This was a world where Flynn was going to be executed for being a thief and the rest of the Fugly Duckling thugs existed, including the Stabbington brothers in the film. It wasn't a cuddly cutsy pinkiepie world where she never would have faced danger or gotten hurt. When Gothel was singing about the dangers of the world, she sounded like she was deflecting far more of her own experience, even if she was exaggerating.
And as
>>78190722
>>78191223
stated, her own experiences in the past clearly influenced her style of parenting.
Would you consider it abusive if Gothel was just a cowardly shy wallflower of a woman who caged her daughter purely because she didn't for a second think the world was safe or good for her?
>>78196114
The Fugly Duckling were big softies, and Flynn was being executed for robbing the fucking Crown.
If Gothel was legitimately just trying to protect Rapunzel it'd be different, still bad but yeah I might not call her outright abusive especially if she bought into all her bullshit.
>>78196005
>You forgot about her magic hair powers.
"I'm your mother, they'll kill you if they ever find out"
Boom, even if someone sees or something, whose gonna believe magical glowing hair?
And that's why i said when shes 8 years old, or even 10 years, basically move out at an age where shes not going to be longing to escape, give her a shitty little medieval life she can be content with and Gothel never has to worry, instead of what happened. I also think a photo of a baby isn't going to instantly click with every podunk farmer and blacksmith in a medieval kingdom, especially further away from the main city of the Kingdom.
The fact they lived like, a few minutes shenanigan chasing from the capital never sat right with me.
>>78190127
No. She cared about her in the sense that she was keeping her alive. She didn't give a shit if Rapunzel was happy or not so long as she stayed put.
>>78196220
So whether or not she was abusive lies on Gothel's true sentiments and intentions over Rapunzel.
Which neither of us can really speak of unless we knew. That's ambiguity. I don't think we'll ever have concrete evidence that was only looking out for her own interests, anymore than genuinely caring for Rapunzel. But in my own opinion the truth was somewhere inbetween, we cannot really say she was good nor bad however.
>>78196005
By definition, Rapunzel cannot peg Gothel.
>>78196271
So most parents?
You brats seem way spoiled to me sempai family.
But this is /co/mblr so I'm not surprised you all grew up in white picket fence gated neighborhoods with doting "U r so speshul" parents that loved you unconditionally.
>>78196675
>having parents that care about your emotional well-being is being 'spoiled'
Seek therapy
>>78196317
It plays in a factor, her intent and actions are enough. By the end it's more than enough evidence she cared more for her own interests than Rapunzel's happiness.
What's ambiguous is how much she truly cared for Rapunzel not if it was lesser than her own desire for youth and immortality.
>>78196675
I know seriously these guys act like it's so weird to have your parents chain you up in the basement, talk about coddled.
>>78196675
Sorry if some of our parents actually care about us anon.
>>78190127
I think the most interesting thing about this movie is the way their relationship is portrayed. Instead of portraying Rapunzel as an unhappy prisoner, it shows that Gothel used the twin tactics of making the prison as comfy and satisfying as she could while not letting her see the outside world, and simultaneously making the outside world seem as horrifying as possible, to make Rapunzel not want to leave. It's pretty twisted, but on the subject of whether she really loved her, I'd say yes: as a prized object or a pet. Not as an actual person she respected and wanted the best for. It was never about that. It was about Rapunzel being her flower who made her young, that she would do anything to protect and keep possession of.
>>78196695
I get it,you're a Millennial and had folks that coddled you from soccer practice onwards.
Newsflash, for most of history parents didn't really give a shit about their kids. "Kids" and youth culture that infantilizes the world today didn't exist a century ago, you were just supposed to die in a war or some shit.
>>78196716
I find it funny that you define a parent's intent by how much they care about a child's happiness.
>I know seriously these guys act like it's so weird to have your parents chain you up in the basement, talk about coddled.
As opposed to figuratively chaining you to other things, out of sight and out of mind like most parents did for the past ten thousand years?
>>78196790
>I'd say yes: as a prized object or a pet. Not as an actual person she respected and wanted the best for. It was never about that. It was about Rapunzel being her flower who made her young, that she would do anything to protect and keep possession of.
I could say the same thing about parents that make that become Pageant moms and dress them up like a pampered dog for a talent show.
>>78196795
How is it funny that I define the difference between an abusive mindset and a nonabusive being: One seeks to create a functional healthy individual and the other just wants to their child to meet their own motive.
A Gothel who legitimately gave a fuck about Rapunzel's well being, possibly not abusive. A Gothel who just needs her for her hair and is more than willing to chain her i the basement and use her for her hair, definitely fucking abusive. Probably even by ancient standards you're trying to pull out of your ass.
>>78196817
You really could which is why a lot of people are creeped out by those shows and infer they're horrible parents who are fucking up their kids.
>they're actually taking the bait
>>78196795
You sound like someone that's been abused, realized through reading other people's accounts of good parenting that you were abused, and you're so desperate to deny it was abuse that you create logical fallacies like: "Back in 1350 it was okay to beat your children, so locking up a girl in a tower, lying to her about her parentage, never letting her leave, emotionally stunting her on purpose so she's terrified of leaving, and then forcibly kidnapping her after orchestrating a plot to have the only person to treat her decently murdered isn't bad!"
>>78196948
>How is it funny that I define the difference between an abusive mindset and a nonabusive being: One seeks to create a functional healthy individual and the other just wants to their child to meet their own motive.
Because your definitions only make any sense in the context of modern thinking.
Anytime before the 1900th century you didn't have kids to "create a functional healthy individual" or give them their own purpose, identity and life to live out.
You did the second thing.
>just wants to their child to meet their own motive.
And the basement thing sucked, but it doesn't completely negate the fact that she devoted 18 years of her life tending to and raising her. Keep in mind Rapunzel was holed up so Gothel couldn't go far, less she age and die. She couldn't even really leave the town from what we've seen. How do you think she felt about all this? She in many ways was just as chained to Rapunzel as her to the Tower. So I'm inclined to ask, why not carry Rapunzel around with her? Why not let herself wonder and give both of them freedom? The only sensible explanation from Gothel's POV is that she cared enough about Rapunzel to lock her up and protect her.
Why are you acting like doing a suspicious thing YOU don't agree with is automatically abusive? You're so convinced her only motives could've been having a Hair slave, and yet we didn't see any attempt to separate Rapunzel from her hair or treat her with dignity and respect. She let her wonder out even after discovering she left. She allowed her to learn and grow even before that, and constantly expressed affection.
This whole concept of "Ablooabloo Emotional abuse" seems like bullshit, since before she chained her up she didn't demonstrate anything but goodwill towards Rap.
>>78197035
I wouldn't say that's my first hand-account personally, but I've witnessed it enough very closely. The offending parties never had such a simplistic motivation that lead me to believe any sort of Abuse is "Intentional", or without cause. And just like them, Gothel wasn't Good or Evil.
As re-stated here,
>>78190722
>>78191223
There's a lot more inner depth going on with Gothel than most people care to acknowledge. Gothel kidnapped Rapunzel not just for her hair, but because the royal family betrayed her and took something from her, her extended "life" so to speak. A child is often aptly looked at as a means of immortality by parents, and that's symbolically and literally true in this case. In the Fairy Tail sense, that makes Rapunzel a changeling. In german mythology fay steal children out of a complicated sense of mistrust, envy, and love for children- it's never all or one, but I don't think emotions are ever that simple.
I know that because I listened, to those so called "Abusers." I think that's how you understand abuse and evil, by trying to understand what drives a person to it in the first place. Not just thinking in packaged ways you find on Dateline or whatnot.
I've spouted a lot about historical relativism, but a thing I've noticed about both the "abusers" and something that pops out about Gothel's character is that their affection is condescending and that always stems from a similar place, their creepy fetishistic obsession with the object they're trying to possess. That always starts from a place of genuine love, if they weren't that concerned over their child they wouldn't have gotten so worked up in the first place.
If you would separate a mother from her daughter just because you think you know what's best and cannot that child as best with it, even without knowing their intentions, your way of thinking is no more messed up than Gothels.
>>78197820
Gothel is not immortal, she knows this. The whole "Magical immortality" hair is a smokescreen for the more implicit symbolism at hand. Yes, Gothel is trying to preserve her youth. She's trying to "stay young" by sheltering Rapunzel.
But can you not see the obvious psychological implications behind that act? Of grooming a daugher and molding her in a fashion more like she wished to be raised? It's kind of a testament of Gothel's own fears and insecurities, especially as foretold by her initial song. She may only be vaguely aware of it but, seeing how afraid she is of Death and aging, everything she represses into Rapunzel and that she holds her back for, seems like a clear internalized mechanism for her own subliminal desire, from a purely psychological perspective.
tl;dr The hair isn't what keeps Gothel young, I mean it does literally but that's beside the point.
Keeping a precious daughter whose safe, happy, sheltered from the world and nurtured with a mother who will always come back is what "Keeps" Gothel's fetishtic youth present, in a symbolic level. That's what she adores and desires, more than anything. So when she gets to the breaking point of Rapunzel wanting to leave and chains her up, it's more a sign of how obsessed and chained she is herself to Rapunzel and her idealization. If Rapunzel leaves and grows up, or is harmed on the outside world, the illusion of youth and perfection, of a girl perfectly sheltered and never matured is lost to Gothel, that's why she has to be kept so closely guarded. Her desires are a clear defense mechanism against what she (perhaps unknown to her) covets the most otherwise. Exposure, pain, death, ect.
She didn't hate her daughter, she never did.
But her love was more like how we understand...fear, or agony even. Deeply repressed love turned sick and obsessive so she keep her own object a at bay.
>>78197945
*Sniff*
>>78197945
In other words, Rapunzel, despite her captivity has to remain happy. Gothel would prefer she remain happy to some degree. Because while she wants to maintain the psychological shielding from everything she loathes and dislikes, (All the exposure) to have Rapunzel be an unhappy object ruins the fantasy of her "Youth" being preserved and makes the smokescreen of her fantasy more like a clear transparent glass she can see through. It unmasks her intentions, that she's trying to live her life through her daughter and give her a life she subconsciously and desperately wishes for herself. She doesn't want that.
So for her own subliminal sake, she'll keep Rapunzel happy and healthy, to a degree. (That degree being if Rapunzel risks breaking away from this whole staged othering that her mother, the Name of her Mother, has set up.)
We stated here
>>78196317
>>78196716
that abuse is contentious based on one's intentions, for instance whether she was a kind mother scared for her daughters safety or callous woman wanting to keep her daughter locked off. I don't believe intentions are that simple, nobody really knows what they want. I'm inclined to believe what Gothel did was rash and bold and every act after, of raising Rapunzel was similarly unperceptive to herself. From there on, the psychological context at play
>>78197616
>>78197820
kicked in and she found herself raising a daughter. If she could've kept immortal with a silly flower, lonely and immune from aging, she might have. But in my interpretation she found herself much happier and comfortable with her daughter because it offered such a more vivid fantasy of immortality/protection and what she wanted, raising a girl in an environment and identity she idealized for herself. Whether she was aware of that or not is debatable, but given a choice between her daughters happiness and a retrieval of the flower, it's doubtful she would have killed or discarded her for everything Rapunzel represented to her.
>>78198089
Let me try to simplify this. Did Gothel care about Rapunzel's happiness? Yes, only to the extent it reflected onto herself, moreso than her own. If she could have spent the rest of her life miserable and lived through the fantasy of her daughter, she would have, because that was her fetish impulse at that point, her disavowal of what she desired. Is that abusive? I don't believe so, but subjective definitions are debatable. I'm more concerned with her intentions than the results.
tl:dr
Gothel never wanted to make Rapunzel happy.
Rapunzel WAS Gothel's happiness.
That's a simple way to read it.
>>78197616
It's been a while but I don't recall her letting her run free more, she hunted her like a dog, hired criminals to help her hunt her down, had the criminals capture her friend, then lead her to believe she was betrayed knowing full well what really happened, and guilt tripped her.
>>78197820
But in this case we see what she's up to. If anything legitimately having affection to Rapunzel is secondary to keeping her sequestered. This isn't as complicated as a real parent and child since the basis of the abuse/relationship complications aren't purely psychological. She's an actual kidnap victim, being used for a purpose. Gothel doesn't have to have some esoteric obscure reason for why they're psychologically warping her child because her motive isn't purely based in her head.
Also we have all the proof that given the choice between Rapunzel's happiness and Rapunzel's healing abilities she chooses the abilities.
Though you might have a point that Gothel thinks she's also doing Rapunzel a favor because I'm sure she believes in the cynical worldview she fed Rapunzel because I'm sure the monster in all her stories is sitting in the same room with Rapunzel.
>>78190127
What? No. All pretenses of love went out the window the moment she stabbed Flynn. They wore out her patience and she put her foot down.
>>78198284
>She's an actual kidnap victim, being used for a purpose. Gothel doesn't have to have some esoteric obscure reason for why they're psychologically warping her child because her motive isn't purely based in her head.
Disagreed.
When parents have ordinary kids, they do it because they had sex and want to have/keep a kid.
When you kidnap and keep a child for 18 years, that implies deep psychological problems. If we're trying to interpret fictional characters psychologies at all, there's ample evidence for Gothel. Her song and conditioning for Rapunzel reveals her cynicism for the world. It can be argued she didn't really believe any of the things she said or that the world was that dangerous, but we don't see much implying otherwise. She only ventured briefly outside the Tower now and than, and didn't seem to have any friends or company other than herself and Rapunzel. Another important aspect is her narcissism, she looks at her image constantly. People that are narcissists naturally tend to display very, reactionary tenancies. Their self-love is a response to seeing the world less as an intuitive whole and usually exacerbating their own anxious sensibilities deep down inside, in a way that often mirrors obsessive compulsive. We see she keeps herself incredibly clean, and self-worth is measured by her image in the mirror.
This is the surface of her psychology. I'd argue symbolically the same processes are occurring underneath her psyche, with "Rapunzel" operating in the same vein as her mirror image, her other self.
So she can go out and face the world and even belittle grown men with knives, so long as the "safe reflection", the one kept youthful and protected is locked inside the castle, Rapunzel. Rapunzel is Gothel's fetish, in the freudian/lacanian sense. She's a lie that helps Gothel accept a painful truth (Danger, death, aging, exposure)
For a simple comparison, she's her own self-portrait like in "The Picture of Dorian Gray".
>>78198442
Interestingly enough, in Dorian Gray the titular character is also a narcissist who locks up his portrait.
Rapunzel is just that, Gothel's self-portrait that she paints as she wishes but cannot be. She's just a fetishized object for Gothel to live her life through the way she subconsciously wanted to be raised (sheltered, protected, loved, even if it's smarmy and fake) so she can avoid those very same fears that lead to desires. Classic imprinting/subversion.
>>78198442
she only ventured briefly out because she can't be without rapunzel long before she starts aging. she didn't have friends because they would eventually notice she doesn't age, or possibly discover her secret
Abuse often isn't intentional. People may not be aware that they are doing wrong, but that doesn't make it not-abuse.
>>78198721
Exactly, Rapunzel is all she had. And since all she'd had before her was Gothel's own reflection, it's inevitable she transferred her only affection from that to Rap.
>>78199045
But Abuse is contextualized from an outsiders perspective. Not the victim or the 'abuser'. As twisted as it sounds, Gothel retrieving the same treatment as Rapunzel and being put in her exact position wouldn't be abuse, since it's what she'd desire. In the same vein she didn't see what she was doing to Rapunzel as abuse because she was internalizing that desire too tightly.
>>78199115
It doesn't matter that she doesn't see it as abuse, or if that's what she'd want. It doesn't matter that that's not what she intended. Yes, it rationalizes her mindset and maybe shows us that she wasn't just an evil bitch, but that doesn't make how she did things okay. It is still abuse. It isn't overt or extreme (at least imo) but it is mistreatment and abusive. Gothel could have really cared, if not loved, Rapunzel, but she was a bad mother, and that's because, as someone pointed out earlier, the youth/flower comes before anything else.
I'm no expert though.
>>78192620
This. People who defend Gothel piss me off. My mother was a nightmare, she never hit me, but she hurt me in other ways, and I'm still affected by it.
>>78190513
It was one of my favorite parts of the movie. I fucking love it when creators do subtle stuff like that.
It's also what makes Gothel my most hated of villains. We've all met a Gothel in our lives. Someone who says they care for us, when it's really only what they get from us they care about (sex, money, eternal beauty in this case, etc.). Seeing her turn to dust was the most satisfying Disney death ever.
Since we're on the topic of abuse disguided as love, what do we think about Flynn cutting Rapunzel's hair and so depriving her not only of her choice in the situation, but also of such an integral part of herself, and about the fact that we're supposed to back up his action?
>>78200452
Maybe, you don't have to back up his action but the point was his sacrifice in order to save her. You can read it as a dick move but a lack of history and lack of malicious intent I'd say make it not outright abusive.
>>78191081
>Gothel essentially views Rapunzel as her past self. She genuinely believed that Finn was just using Rapunzel as she herself was once used
No she didn't, otherwise she wouldn't have intervened using the bandits in the first place. If she truly believed that, then she would've simply let it play out naturally only to swoop her up once Rapunzel was betrayed and scorned.
>>78190127
Yes but she loved herself more.
She was also pretty damn emotionally abusive.
>>78190480
>Cuddy
>white
>>78200647
But he did something to a girl. Anything a guy does to a girl must be with malicious intent
>>78201839
We talked about this, Jews that are also white, counts as white.
>>78190513
>she's kisses her hair
It's one of my most favorite things in this movie.
I still think she just cared for Rapunzel's hair, not really for Rapunzel.
Or she treated Rapunzel like how most people treat a pet: she only "loves" her when it's convenient.
>>78192040
>she says "I love you more" out of habit
>whispers "I love you most" and blows out her candle
jesus, anon.
>>78192381
It's much easier to control someone when they think you love them. Then you can guilt trip them and they'll feel bad.
Look how Rapunzel reacted in the end. "I will never stop trying to get away from you" or something.
>>78192401
>They fucking stole from Gothel
They didn't know the plant had an owner. Gothel didn't even plant that shit. She just found it.
It's more of a finders keepers thing.
>>78192537
>abuse is only abuse when it's physical
Be thankful you haven't gone through some mental and emotional shit from the people you're supposed to trust
>>78192675
>>78192743
What the fuck? Did you guys miss Rapunzel's look when Gothel fell? Even after the sudden realization that she was kidnapped and manipulated for her hair, she still reached out to her.
>>78192798
>WOW YOU WON'T LET ME RUN AWAY
Technically, Gothel didn't let her out of her tower to see some fucking lanterns. Jesus christ, it's just lanterns. Rapunzel wouldn't even consider running away if Gothel just let her see the fucking lanterns.
In her final moments, I bet Gothel regretted not letting Rapunzel see the lanterns herself.
>>78192930
>Rather she wasn't really fit to be a mother, some people just aren't.
This. Goddamn I know a lot of relatives who are unfit to be parents.
>>78195697
This
>>78196795
>"Kids" and youth culture that infantilizes the world today didn't exist a century ago, you were just supposed to die in a war or some shit.
That is true.
But I'd wager that locking up your child would still be considered abuse in the past. Unless Gothel claims to others that Rapunzel has a mental problem, then that shit would probably fly.
>>78197945
>>78198089
>>78198141
>>78198442
>>78198490
Goddamn, /co/. Interesting read.
>Slight overbite
>Buck teeth
>Freckles
>Was allowed to pull "ugly" expressions
Just how much damn pull did Glen Keane have to be able to create a Disney Princess that wasn't a porcelain doll?
>>78203653
>As Gothel plummeted to her death
>She looked back at the tower
>at what caused this all
>and said to herself
>"I shouldn't have given that bitch a window"
>>78203653
I really love those features. She also has a thicker neck and an upturned nose.
In Frozen, they've refined those things to make the characters look as "perfect" as possible.
>>78196268
You think Gothel was going to just up and move all her shit from her secluded tower?
>>78190127
Wow i made this thread to ask something so simple and now is all 2deep
>>78190127
The short answer is no. I really feel for whoever wrote Gothel, because s/he really gets it, and probably had to go through it. These people are masters at making you think they care, and that generates something that seems like a reciprocal bond but is incredibly one sided. This character is so effective at this manipulation that it even works on the audience. It's fucking brilliant.
