Let's have a historical costume thread. Actual historical clothing/fashion plates/etc is fine as well.
Has anyone been able to find the new Simplicity Outlander patterns in stores yet? They were designed by the person who runs American Duchess.
And speaking of Outlander: good god, the nipple dress. How long before someone tries to cosplay it...?
I know it's from the book but I wish they stuck more to the book description (in the books there are pearls covering the nipples themselves to hide that they are inverted) even though the book version is still far too risque for regular court.
>>8971634
Wait what the shit? What was even the context for this in the show??
>>8971677
It's Louis XV's mistress wearing something scandalous. Part of the French arc in the show is the extreme extravagant/outrageous difference between the French court and the English & Scottish courts that Claire and company have encountered so far. So in the book (and the show) the king's mistress is wearing an extremely low cut gown with weird swan nipple pasty rings, which only the 'outsiders' to the court are shocked by.
>>8971693
Her red dress this episode pissed me off. It was so out of place.They didn't even have her in a corset, and I can't see how a seamstress of the time could make that dress without interfacings and modern structural parts.
I get that Claire helped design it but it was so out of place. It seems like they took the top half from a modern dress and just attached a historic skirt to it and tried to pass it off.
/I KNOW it's to make her look like an outsider but Claire has the advantage that she knows what's coming next in fashion so could dress a few years ahead and be a fashion icon that way.
>>8971618
They're not in the current season catalogue. She may have an advance copy. I'd be interested to know how much fiddling and reworking they need for historical accuracy. The armscyes are almost always wrong in costume patterns and that's never worth fixing.
>>8971634
I can't for someone to cosplay this. I wonder if they'll use fake breasts or something. Or pasties.
>>8971739
It's frustrating because the dress in the book is not meant to be so out of place or different in a modern way. It's just meant to be striking in its color and relative simplicity compared to French courtwear. The dress in the book is described as having proper whalebone corseting, gussets of silk plissé, and the neckline is still appropriate for French gowns in that era--Jamie makes a comment about it being low in the book because he's not used to it. I don't know what the costume designer was thinking.
At least the costume designer doesn't attempt to say it's historically accurate, but, why would you not TRY?
>The red dress. Total pain. Boxed in on all sides. If it wasn’t the number one dress that I have been asked to do since before we started shooting Outlander, I would have never done it. How could anyone see down to the belly button (not a literal translation, obviously) in an 18th century gown? The book description would have been impossible to create. But it was a BELOVED moment in the book, and we decided to honor it. We broke every [rule] and opened up the center seam on the bodice to make it as low cut as possible (per the book description). Other than that I just tried to make it as dramatic and sensational as I could. Period correct? Not even remotely.
>>8971765
She says on her Facebook
>I'm planning an entire blog series, videos, and a class at Costume College on how to "hack" these patterns to make them more historically accurate. These posts will cover everything from small changes like hand-sewn eyelets and alternative closures to more advanced stuff like drafting a winged cuff and adding a flared skirt to the bodice to make a jacket.
so I imagine they require a bit of fiddling at least
Have a few from a very talented FB friend
>>8971916
>>8971929
>>8971933
>>8971935
>>8971994
okay you can't really see the dresses, but the setting is perfect
I'm going to be attempting a chemise a la reine soon. Pic related, one of only two existing chemise a la reines that I know are still around. I'll be doing the older version with the big sleeves, though.
>>8972224
Unless you have a nice set of stays, be prepared for it to look like a mumu if you make it with a historically accurate pattern.
I found a charity shop that for some reason has like 10 costume dresses from various time periods for under £15 each so as soon as I'm free I'm going and trying them all on to see if any fit.
One was a Victorian dress with huge sleeves in a pretty yellow/orange colour that I really hope fits.
>>8972224
YEARS AND YEARS OF RESEARCH
>>8972283
could be a donation from a local theater.
>>8972298
Years and years, always.
On that note here's a cuter lolita version of a chemise a la reine. I think it was a one-off though.
>>8972283
Take pictures and report back. I'd buy the shit out of some nice costumes for that money.
>>8971634
Well pearls would have definitely looked better than what I'm seeing now.
>you know someone is going to use loopholes to wear this
>>8971634
>>8971693
Exposed nipples were actually a thing for a while (I don't know when Outlander is set, so don't know if it's concurrent to actual history). Some of the fashion plates that exist were pretty much this low in terms of cuts, though there was generally a fichu involved in supporting the breast somehow. The close-up shows a hint of one (or her chemise? something?), so this isn't completely off the wall and inaccurate. Just more extreme than most examples that are documented, and somewhat contemporary in terms of the cut of the bodice. The majority generally were more of an "oops, my nipples popped out" sort of look than full boob exposure.
I've read a lot of historical costumers debates on the subject because it came up in a previous thread. There's a lot of disagreement on the subject (why, how, when, who) because the window this happened in was so short compared to other trends. It only a few years, as opposed to a decade or more in which silhouettes or fabric types change. It's also not documented why it was a trend, so there's debate about it being a "motherly" thing (it coincided with an upswing in society/noble mothers breastfeeding their own children) rather than an erotic thing. Or a display of youth. Or a display of wealth (usually went with displays of jewellery). Or a display of who knows what reason.
There was also a trend to pierce the nipples and wear chains stretched between them, but I'm pretty sure that came later, and that they were covered up/for personal enjoyment rather than public display.
Someone with more experience and info was in the last thread this came up, but I'm having a hard time finding it in the archives.
>>8972587
only lasted*
Any pattern recommendations? I am currently into mid-late 18th century. I've tried some JP Ryan patterns, but have run into some issues.
I'm hoping to order shoes and stays soon. There are so many stays on Etsy, has anyone purchased repro items from there?
>>8972865
I don't recall if they have the era you're after, but if they do, Laughing Moon patterns are really nicely done.
I love this dress, designed by Lady Duff-Gordon. Her photograph on wikipedia is amazing btw
When I was at school 7ish years ago a member of staff unearthed a load of historical fashion items, mostly dresses and accessories like shoes and gloves. None of the current or recent members of staff, some who had been there for decades, knew that it was there. IIRC the stuff was mostly from between Victorian era to the 1950s (potentially when it had all been hidden away), but there were a few Georgian pieces in the collection. I don't think anyone ever found out who had collected it and squirrelled it away to be forgotten about. I wasn't interested in historical clothing back then so didn't do any close studies or anything of it, just a few sketches of one dress because I did art. Such a missed opportunity looking back, I wish I had paid more attention to it all!
>>8973223
Oh man what a neat find! I'm sure even if you didn't appreciate, some historical costumers did!
>>8972865
I'll second Laughing Moon patterns. They are really clear and detailed, and they have lists of other references if you get stuck and need help.
>>8973230
It was very cool even though I didn't appreciate it enough back then - I was hanging about in the art department when they were bringing it all in and it was amazing opening all these old cardboard boxes and finding these fancy old dresses folded up inside! The school was in an old building (1800s) and had some underground corridors and war-time bombshelter type rooms underneath it, and I think it was found down there. Even though it could have been stored better than cardboard boxes, there was barely any (to my untrained eye anyway) damage or damp affecting the clothes, which was really lucky since I think some of the underground bit had flooded before so it must have been stored in an unaffected area.
There is a fashion museum in the area so I think they were invited to come and look and I think they took or restored some of the pieces, so yes hopefully it is all well loved!
>>8972222
I couldn't help but think of OTT lolita during this movie, especially the parts where she joked about the ridiculous feathers on her head or the part where she got drunk at a party and her wig came off.
pic unrelated
>>8971739
You think interfacing and flatlining materials didn't exist in the 18th century? Nothing about that dress requires modern materials. I mostly like what they did with it as "Claire's" 20th century influenced design (including that it's slightly awkward), though I would have designed and constructed the neckline a little differently and given it more structure. Claire doesn't have any particular knowledge of historical fashion. I probably know more than she does, and if you plunked me down in a specific year in the 18th century I wouldn't be on the cutting edge of fashion because I wouldn't know specifically what would be popular a year from then. (Besides, that's not really how court trends work.)
>>8973766
I was on the website-- they have videos for some of the patterns, which is incredibly awesome. Here is one on pleating:
https://youtu.be/24u2CjAX508
>>8971939
>MY CLEAN FINISHING BONER
Dumping a few of my favorite historical styles.
>>8973838
>>8973842
>>8973846
>>8973847
>>8973849
>>8973854
I'd like to see more people tackle the more detailed/elaborate things from the past. Stuff like this--you rarely see this level of detail in 18th century costumes.
>>8973855
>>8973859
>>8973865
>>8973868
>>8973869
>>8973874
less spam, more discussion. Or at least discuss with your spam.
>>8973877
>>8973883
>>8973885
>>8973888
>>8973878
>historical costume thread
>complains there's too many historical costumes being posted
>>8973902
>>8973903
>>8973905
>>8973911
>>8971739
i hate to say it, but in the books it's made quite clear that claire hates wearing stays and has boning put into some of her gowns so she doesn't have to wear stays +gown. i don't remember if the red dress was like this or not.
i'm disappointed with the red dress too....thought it would have more sheer bits on the bodice. but i'm REALLY salty about that awful brown floral dress that looks like fucking barkcloth and REALLY out of place.
>>8973914
>>8973923
>>8973924
>>8973928
>>8973942
Yay! Shameless self post time!
First up, some of my good clothes from Colonial Williamsburg. The coat is calf skin leather.
>>8971608
Is that CW?
99% chance that worked with her.
>>8971634
>>8971693
Wait.... What.
>>8973968
Candid work shot
>>8973971
Christmas, 2015 at Colonial williamsburg.
>>8973980
1460's Italian doublet and joined hose, 2014
>>8973898
No, I'm complaining about spam with no discussion or direction. If people only want to see pictures they can google.
>>8973982
Gentleman of dubious virtue and negotiable loyalty durring Bacon's Rebellion, 2008 (I regret the chin-fuzz)
Claire's red dress reminded me of this painting. But without the modesty chemise.
>>8973989
And the rest are all really bad pictures of me, or pics of me in armour.
Last one for now: 1460's Italian light infantry, 2014
>>8973858
I'm curious, anyone know what the price (in terms of purchasing power) of these sorts of gowns translates to? Getting an equivalent gown made today would be thousands of dollars, and even though labor was probably cheaper per hour, everything was hand sewn and fabrics were very expensive. I've always wondered what a lady of means would spend annually on clothing in the era of greatest excess.
>>8972869
the day this is forgotten cgl is truly dead
>>8974001
Assuming we're talking about court gowns:
it would vary depending on what exactly you were ordering. If you were ordering a completely new elaborate court gown with all the trimmings, it would cost far more than paying for pieces of gowns (such as petticoats, bodices, or paying for trimmings that could be used to alter an existing gown) which many women did to curb costs. Presentation gowns are typically the gowns which cost
A later Galerie des Modes publication actually included some prices from dressmakers for these elaborate court gowns, so there is a decent reference for prices from sought after dressmakers.
For something elaborate like the pic you quoted, assuming the entire gown with trimmings was being ordered, I'd say at least 2500-3000 livres, but probably more because of the ermine. In 2008, that would be about $25,000-30,000. (One livre = about $10 in 2008 usd.) I don't know about today, the information I used to convert was going by 2008 purchasing power.
It was more typical for women to alter gowns with trimmings or order pieces to mix and match. Full trimmings on an existing court gown would usually cost about 300-700 livres, so still a tidy sum but not as insanely high. People also purchased smaller trimmings, like new bundles of lace or silk to make puffs, etc, which could cost anywhere from 15 livres to a few hundred.
The more often you went to court, the more you had to spend so that you weren't always wearing the same thing and could keep up with trends. Presentation gowns, worn when you were first presented, would be expected to be magnificent and the records for the cost of presentation gowns tend to start at 3,000 livres.
>>8974001
Perhaps not the time period your thinking of but I've heard it suggested that some Tudor court clothes could cost as much as some houses. So they might be equivalent to the price of a nice car.
Because of this they were sometimes used as collateral for loans. Apparently this meant that someone fallen on hard times might not make it to court because they couldn't get their nice duds out of the renaissance equivalent to a pawn shop. Very embarrassing.
>>8973858
Auuuugh, I love 18th and late 17th century French clothing so much. I wonder if the lack of detailed costumes is due to the cost and the relative scarcity of 18th century French costumes. It just seems like to me that the 18th century is relatively under-represented compared to Victorian/Civil War/Renaissance/Medieval, and usually when I see 18th century stuff it's more American Revolutionary War/Colonial instead of the gorgeous (and doubtless much more expensive) Versailles clothing.
I've been trying to find accessories (the pretty embroidered mules, jewelry) without much luck. Most historical jewelry is either the wrong period or looks really cheap/mass-produced or too modern.
>>8974497
18th century costumes/re-enactors are more common in Europe! Though even then, I haven't seen too many more detailed costumes that look like the fashion plates for court wear. I'm going to post a few that I do have and find as I'm searching right now.
I wonder if one of the reasons for a general lack of fancy 18th century re-enactors/costumemakers in the USA is because while 18th century American elite did have finery, it wasn't anywhere near as lavish or outlandish as French fashions worn in Europe.
Have you looked at American Duchess? I wonder if they might custom embellish their shoes somehow.
>>8974503
Reminds me of the Pompadour portrait.
>>8974504
so it turns out I only had 2 images of court gowns that even somewhat resemble the fancier fashion plates. Found this reproduction of a Marie Antoinette gown, hunting for more fancy court stuff...
>>8973985
Fuck off.
>>8974503
American Duchess used to have the Antoinette mule, but sadly I never got a pair and they only came in baby pink/blue anyway. They DO still have the Pompadour shoes which I don't like quite as much as the Antoinettes, but are dye-able/embellish-able.
Thank you for the picture dump! I imagine it is easier to find this stuff in Europe- most Historical stuff here in the states is very Civil/Revolutionary war. ...Although, looking at some of the portraits of, say, women like Martha Washington, they did have lovely dresses even if they weren't anywhere near French Court caliber. Picture related was painted in the mid 1800s so it's probably not accurate, but still. Whenever you see Colonial re-enactors, even ones playing the elite, the clothing isn't nearly this pretty.
Combined with how hard it is for you to find fancy court stuff, I'm going to chalk the scarcity of it up to money.
>>8973982
You remind me of Douglas Reynholm in the IT Crowd here
>>8974514
Dang this is a challenge. No one really makes super detailed court gowns. Anglaise and chemise a la reine and polonaise everywhere!!
>>8974519
Oh darn, they discontinued it? I would go for the Pompadour shoes if they can embellish them!
No problem at all! Here's a short look at Martha Washington's fashion if you're interested, along with one surviving dress: http://www.mountvernon.org/digital-encyclopedia/article/the-style-of-martha-washington/
Colonial Willamsburg has a few surviving 'elite' American gowns that are quite nice: http://www.history.org/history/museums/clothingexhibit/museum_explore.cfm#filter=women
>Combined with how hard it is for you to find fancy court stuff, I'm going to chalk the scarcity of it up to money.
Yeah I agree, it definitely plays a factor. That and skill. A lot of these court gowns have really unique trimmings and embellishments that would take dedication and skill to execute properly.
>>8974527
>http://www.history.org/history/museums/clothingexhibit/museum_explore.cfm#filter=women
Argh, this reminds me of my futile search to find a decent handfan. All the spines of the ones I find that aren't extremely expensive antiques (which I would not put to daily use anyway) are all either the same cheap plastic from the same mold or cheap bamboo.
Anglaise and polonaise are pretty too! But yeah. Pic related is one of my very favourite court gowns, although technically it's missing its lace trim and was a wedding dress and not French. I can't imagine how much it cost.
>A lot of these court gowns have really unique trimmings and embellishments that would take dedication and skill to execute properly.
Oh man. My husband's wedding suit was very, very much 18th century styled (and admittedly not period accurate). I remember spending actual days combing through antique trims on etsy and finding two that I ended up spending even more actual days weaving one through the other. That was only 6 yards of it, too. I can't imagine trimming an entire court gown.
>>8971935
>dat extra set of feet
What's that about? Are they smuggling people under their petticoats?
>>8974519
I think in the us at least there is just nowhere to wear a court gown. Last year at costume college there was a group of people doing court gowns. But other then that most balls and events don't have space to maneuver such a huge dress or they aren't allowed in reenactments and such.
>>8974662
>last year at costume college
Oh, thanks for that, I don't know why I didn't think to search that event. Found this one from last year!
I wish I was able to go to Costume College this year. I was planning on it but obligations came up. This year's theme is Counterculture: Rebels, Revolutionaries and Subversives and holy fuck I love that theme.
>>8974681
And another fashion plate like gown
>>8974546
>I remember spending actual days combing through antique trims on etsy and finding two that I ended up spending even more actual days weaving one through the other. That was only 6 yards of it, too. I can't imagine trimming an entire court gown.
That's some dedication!
>Argh, this reminds me of my futile search to find a decent handfan
Have you tried looking for antique fans that aren't in perfect condition (or aren't as desirable) and just using the sticks? I've seen antique fans on ebay go for $15-40 on ebay when the leafs are messed up, but the sticks are still in nice condition.
>>8974696
>That's some dedication!
I'm an extremely patient person when it comes to fashion crafting, haha. I once spent about 36 hours total gluing 6500 rhinestones onto a pair of heels one at a time with a needle to make glass slippers. Still, yes, his wedding suit was a labor of love.
>Have you tried looking for antique fans that aren't in perfect condition (or aren't as desirable) and just using the sticks? I've seen antique fans on ebay go for $15-40 on ebay when the leafs are messed up, but the sticks are still in nice condition.
I've thought about this, but I doubt my ability to re-leaf the fan. I'm afraid of messing it up and ruining the sticks. I might have to risk it in the end because I'm just not finding anything else.
>>8973859
I thought you weren't supposed to wear rosary?
>>8974681
Is costume college worth a cross-country trip? Looking at their class schedule it actually looks like they offer a lot. I'm intermediate/advanced, and am moving into doing more historical from cosplay and street clothes sewing.
One of Marie Antoinette's dresses recreated for a documentary. Not as grand as the portrait image but this documentary's budget was low so I'm surprised they did this at all.
>>8974750
I'm not sure why people always say that. Rosaries have been worn in various forms (wrapped at the wrist, around the neck, tied at the waist) for hundreds of years. They were believed to keep you safe from temptation and evil (similar to scapulars).
They're not meant to be worn as vanity pieces/jewellery or by non-believers, but wearing them as a sign of faith (as I'm sure this woman would have done in that period) was always fine.
Does anyone know if there's a technical name for these poofy gatherings of fabrics on 18th century dresses?
>>8974750
>>8975204
It really depends on what kind of Roman Catholic you are. Most of my family is south Italian Cult de mori Catholics, and have strict tradition that only the dead and dying are allowed to wear it around their neck (though wrist and belt is ok). Some of my family are virgin/saint cult (IE, worship the Virgin mother or a singular saint as an intermediate to Jesus/God), and that can vary saint-to-saint.
The handful of family that are flagellante wear special rosary around their neck, the better for the thorns on the beads to scrape and scratch. I don't count them though.
That all aside... Officially speaking, its only a rosary when you're praying. Otherwise, its just beads on a string.
>>8975264
Well, sure. But I was just generalising in terms of basic canon/history. Mostly because there are portraits of people wearing rosaries in various forms, and a lot of documentation about rosaries specifically made to be worn conveniently for when you pray a lot (rosary rings, rosary bracelets, etc.).
So when it comes up in these threads, or lolita threads about religious iconography, with people saying "that was never done!!" so emphatically, I'm a bit baffled by it. Like you said, different sects of Catholicism treat it differently and have different rules, but in general, there's plenty of examples of rosaries being worn historically.
>>8975272
Oh yeah, hell, you can pretty routinely identify the nationality/culture of a subject in a painting by how they wear/carry a rosary, as well as the style.
Have you heard of Karen Larsdater? Documentation in art of anything pre 18thC is her jam.
http://larsdatter.com/sitemap.htm
>>8975279
Nice, thanks for the link.
another view of >>8974503
>>8974503
I'm currently trying to get a 18th/19th century group going but it's so hard ugh.
>>8975289
It really depends on where you are. If you live in an area with history, its easier.
>>8975290
I live in Louisiana, roughly 4 hours from New Orleans and A LOT of plantations have that character and history of 19th century but finding people that are interested in it outside of just googling is hard for sure.
>>8975279
HOLY.
RUFFLED.
SHIT.
WHY DID NO LINK THIS BEFORE?
>>8975294
Was raised Catholic, brother went to Catholic school from Pre-K to High School, I ended up in public with PSR and Sunday school every week because we moved to a different area, but. Anyway.
We made rosaries each year to send overseas with mission groups, and when one kid yelled at another kid for putting the rosary around his neck, our PSR teacher, a novitiate, gave us a (mini) talk on history of the rosary, complete with pictures in our study guides. She told him not to do it out of laziness, but as a sign of his devotion.
Suffice to say, most of us didn't wear them, but I still remember that talk.
Maybe my PSR was weird, though. For Halloween each year, if it fell close enough to PSR night, they'd have us choose a Saint to dress as/give a presentation about instead of doing costumes.
>>8975314
Fransican, but we didn't have nuns.
Does anyone have any pictures of older historical costumes people have made? Preferably from the 1920s through the 1990s, not 19th century costume ball type stuff. I like collecting pictures of people's costumes but it's not often you see older stuff outside of European costume balls from the late 19th century.
I have a few from 1998, not that old but.
>>8975478
>>8973985
It's a fucking image board. Look around you, idiot.
>>8975478
I don't live in the area anymore, but my old group archived a lot of their old photos here http://www.gbacg.org/past-events/
>>8973846
Does anyone know where to find a comparable pattern for this dress would be? It's specifically the train I am interested in.
>>8975792
I don't know about a pattern, but here's the makers post about the dress: http://rebelshaven.blogspot.com/2011/04/italian-renaissance-gown.html
>>8975940
Thank you so much!!! I appreciate it!
>>8977194
you're welcome!
I'm gonna drop the images of dresses that are my dream costumes. Unfortunately there's no good serious groups here so I will probably never bother.
>>8977930
also file names are all fucked up, sorry, this is a court gown.
>>8977933
I'd love someone to give me some info on this one, btw. Its got a very unique cut. Theater costume?
>>8977935
>>8977940
>>8977943
>>8977935
http://www.abitiantichi.it/collezione/coll1880-90.html
Modern gown inspired by an 1888 wedding reception gown. Maker posted this as a reference, it's super small but I can't find a bigger version.
>>8975478
I'm sure you could find some in old Williamsburg publications, especially from the 70s. I am especially interested in living history museums and institutional history so I just picked up a book from an antique store on Williamsburg interiors around that time. The photographs are great, even in costume the interpreters give a 70s vibe.
>>8980407
Thanks for the tip! I'll definitely look for those.
>>8980549
If you or anyone else is interested in living history I will post some resources. This is my area of interest so I love talking about it and sharing information. There were a lot of publications being put out around the time of the 60s and 70s because many museums were experimenting with social history (daily life of average people in the past).
1. If you can find it, "Time Machines" by Jay Anderson is an awesome book that was published in the 80s. It has a lot of great images going back in time (70s, 60s, etc...) of museums, reenactors
http://www.amazon.com/Time-Machines-World-Living-History/dp/0910050716
Another great book is on Williamsburg. It was written from an anthropological perspective on how the museum's interpretation has changed over time and how the museum "managed" its image from creation to the 1990s:
http://www.amazon.com/The-New-History-Old-Museum/dp/0822319748
James Deetz has a couple of books that touch on what Plimoth Plantation was like in the 60s-70s (think groovy hippies camping out in thatched houses). I can't remember which one it was though:
http://www.amazon.com/James-Deetz/e/B000APNVEM/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1
Finally, if you want to see some neat photos and possibly fun films to watch, the Kon-Tiki expedition happened in 1940(?). It's an early example of experimental archaeology. A Norwegian guy, Thor Heyerdahl wanted to test an archaeological theory by trying to take a raft across the Pacific. There's a documentary and a (cute?) movie that came out a few years ago about it-- probably not accurate but fun to watch if only because I enjoy historical fiction.
Sorry to write a novel guys, but perhaps one of these will be of interest to you...
>>8981161
I guess I started numbering and forgot after the first one. Oops.
>>8981161
Thanks for these!
>>8971765
May you elaborate how they are wrong? I've never purchased a historical pattern.
>>8981928
They're designed and shaped like modern armscyes. The correct shape varies by era, but the contemporary shape on costume patterns is always wrong.
Some more living history books
This Victorian Life: Modern Adventures in Nineteenth-Century Culture, Cooking, Fashion, and Technology by Sarah A. Chrisman*
Victorian Secrets: What a Corset Taught Me about the Past, the Present, and Myself by Sarah A. Chrisman*
Man of War: My Adventures in the World of Historical Reenactment by Charlie Schroeder
How to Be a Victorian: A Dawn-to-Dusk Guide to Victorian Life
Living History: Effective Costumed Interpretation and Enactment at Museums and Historic Sites by David Alison
Living History Museums: Undoing History through Performance by Scott Magelssen
*So I've heard that these are not really good, something about the author being pretentious and having a persecution complex
>>8981928
Modern ones are bell shaped and all one piece. Generally historical sleeves were achieved using some sort of gusset strategy.
>>8982090
Thank you! One more:
Confederates in the Attic: Dispatches from the Unfinished Civil War by Tony Horwitz
>>8982096
Gussets are common on chemises but not often used on gowns. Armholes were cut higher under the arm (they are cut too low on a lot of mainstream patterns; low armscyes lead to fit and mobility problems) and shaped very differently through the shoulder.
God I'd love to see this one in person and study the embroidery.
>>8973395
I love that sort of dress.
Elegant and comfy.
That woman was beautiful. Such a perfect face...
>>8988925
Wow. I Had to pick my jaw up off the floor when I saw this. Deets on it?
>>8973980
I've always wanted to get a job at Colonial Williamsburg as an actor!! Would you mind dropping some deers about the audition process and resume requirements? I'm pursing a degree in archeology right now, and hopefully will be attending William and Mary for my graduate degrees, eventually.
>>8990157
It's a late 19th century Russian Court dress that I believe belonged to Empress Alexandra- the Romanov one that got shot with her family sadly.
Fortunately, the gown survived the revolution in Russia along with some others (there's a pink velvet one I love too).
>>8990278
I'm not at Williamsburg, but just wanted to give you a friendly reminder that living history jobs pay next to nothing and are seasonal at many museums (Williamsburg excluded)
Don't rack up debt in school if interpretation is your end-goal. Find a funded graduate program.
>>8972481
Fugg sorry didn't see this post earlier. I'll pass by tomorrow and take some pictures and post them. I went by today to see what they have in stock.
Curently they have two 18th century rococo style gowns (they are simple but are gorgeous and fit the silhouette perfectly), two Regency era dresses (one is bordeline tacky costume and the other I'm not sure if it's a costume or a traditional Indian dress because I'm not familiar with their dress styles outside of saris and the fabric used on the dress is traditional Indian fabric), and a strange peach dress that is relatively fitted and then has huge layered puff sleeves lined in black and has a matching cape, which I'm assuming is a late 19th century costume but I'm genuinely not sure. They also have a big thick satin red cape with a big hood and a purple/pink shiny taffetta babydoll lingerie dress with matching peignoir which I'm so tempted to buy even though the colour is hideous because it's poofy and adorable, kek.
>>8990774
I'm back! I made a quick collage of the dresses (one is a front and back of my favourite Regency style dress). The two red rococo at first glance look very 80s prom but the problem is that they're very big so the silhouette doesn't work right, but with some taking in they'd look great. I'm still confused about the peach dress, lel.
>>8991927
Huh. Interesting. Looks like they were probably from a theater!
>>8991927
The first two almost have an 80s vibe
So the Met lists this as a chemise a la reine, but the bodice seems way off even for the more structured gowns of the period. Thoughts?
>>8971618
These are in stores now (and currently $.99 at Joanns). I looked at the piece diagrams for the dress and it looks pretty costumey to me compared to the cuts I've seen in Janet Arnold. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I passed on the dress. I did pick up the underthings pattern. It looks potentially serviceable.
>>8993572
I can't find it on the Met website. In any case, part of the problem is that what exactly constitutes a chemise a la reine isn't quite as defined as other styles from that period.
I'm deleting a bunch of files. I'll share before I get rid of them as a final send off.
>>8996208
>>8996210
>>8996214
>>8996218
>>8996222
>>8996224
>>8996225
>>8996227
>>8996231
Do any aussies know where to get corset supplies that aren't from spotlight or lincraft?
>>8997156
Not sure what type of corset you're making, but if you are on a budget you can use plastic zip ties from a hardware store for boning.
>>8981161
Great resources, thanks anon!
>>8997595
I was hoping on making my first pair of regency stays
>>8998449
Those seem pretty simple if you mean short stays. You can probably get all of the materials online or at a local craft store. If you're not experienced in making stays then I would suggest getting cheap material to do a mock-up before delving into more expensive materials. The first stays I made were pretty ill-fitting, but I used left-over material from my stash and only needed to buy boning, so even if I can't wear them (for the most part) it was still a nice learning project.
>>8998778
Thanks this is great advice!
>>8998449
They're not that hard to make, I wouldn't use zip ties though.
>>8977943
Oh my god, that's gorgeous.
>>8991927
Oh god, that cape. That cape. I want it.
>>9004452
I love those curls. I know they were probably sewn in place but I can't help wondering how the wigs/hair were kept so nice and neat throughout the day.
>>9004583
>sewn in place
I've never heard of this. Did they do that in the 18th century?
Weird question: I have long hair. I would like to grow out a portion of my hair to make into a 18th century men's queue. Anyone have advice with working with real hair?
>>8977930
A girl is working on a gown inspired by this dress.
Here's the bodice. I could have lived without the sequins, but otherwise I think it's rather beautiful.
If you want:
more pics: doxiequeen1.tumblr.com
construction: doxiequeen1.wordpress.com/category/historically-inspired-2/19th-century/
>>9006128
I love her stuff so much
>>9006128
I just saw her progress video today! She looks like she's definitely taken inspiration from the photo I showed her on a past video of Wilhelmina von Hallwyl's evening gown. I can't wait to see the finished project.
>>8998449
if i remember right, don't regency stays use cording instead of boning? i haven't branched into that sector of history yet.
I wish I had a bigger version of this. It's a 1930's take on Rococo from the 1938 Marie Antoinette film. I'd love to see this one in person.
>>9005066
I know they did it for elaborate hairstyles in earlier periods. I assume they sewed wigs in the 18th century too, as they'd be frequently worn and it would be more practical to sew them in place than redo the curls every few days.
>>9011671
LACMA sent it somewhere a few years ago to be professionally restored... hopefully this means they'll be putting it on display, at least for a time, soon. Here's a color production still with that gown.
>>8990278
Colonial Williamsburg was fun... Until they were done with me. I had heard the horror stories of how shitty they fuck over their employees, but I didn't believe it.
Colonial Williamsburg is legitimately the worst company I have ever worked for; note that I say company, not museum. They will hide shit in contracts, outright lie to your face, and generally be the sleaziest fucking business they can, while toeing the "nonprofit" line as close as possible. The new president is an idiot too. He's hemorrhaging money from the foundation on stupid cashgrabs that are driving away the supporters.
Fuck them sideways.
>>8990756
It also depends on having a skill. Having a degree doesn't mean shit compared to having a practical skill, like carpentry, military knowledge, smithing, basket weaving etc.
Living history museums want interpreters, not curators in costume.
>>9011906
spill more!
>>9012317
How long were you at Williamsburg?
It seems that larger living history museums are more corporate than smaller ones. I was at a large living history museum in the midwest for a short time and what really put me off were the large sponsor logos all over the exhibit spaces. The museum started to redo the site with loads of technology. I think part of it was because if they automated the site they don't need to staff as many interpreters.
>>9011906
What sort of things did they lie about?
>>9012317
>>9013512
Hour allocation, position advancement, employee support (NEVER bring your clothes in for mending at costuming, you won't get your summer coat back until winter), and the biggest lie is the "one foundation" motto. They purposefully pit departments against each other, especially the various historic sales groups.
They will lay off people, promise to rehire them, and not tell them that the papers they sign include a non hiring eligibility term, so that they don't have to rehire them at their old pay or bennies.... And it takes years.
And after having a shitty 4th of July (cutting budgets and programs, the failure of the headless horseman/Zombie Pirates for halloween (losing contributors who were donating to a museum, NOT a themepark), The modern refrigerated ice skating rink in the middle of DoG street, and the ungodly media disaster that was the superbowl ad, they are hurting.
>>9012631
About two years. Apparently, for a lot of new folks thats a long time. You are either there till you die, or they fuck you over. There were record layoffs when I was let go. Now they want 250 new folks for the season, but all of the folks they had trained and experienced are fucking pissed.
>>8973883
iirc this is historically inspired rather than historically correct.
>>9013578
Sorry to hear all that. Were you able to find a position at a different museum? I feel like I'll be interning until I die.
>>9014159
it's inspired by this painting
>>9014347
>Were you able to find a position at a different museum?
HAHAHAHAHAHA.
Oh, sweet sweet summer child, it not an in demand market, and there are only so many living history museums. That there are three within an hour of each other here is unheard of anywhere else in the US.
Further more, most are government run. It take months, even years to get through.
For the past few months, I've been paying the bills teaching drums and fencing, while looking for a new job.
>Historical clothing thread
>people not posting the best of historical clothing and pretending they're Marie Antoinette
>Fucking nerds
>>9014744
You're preaching to the choir here, as I said I will forever be an unpaid intern at various sites until someone deems me worthy of a paycheck.
Best of luck in your search. There are about 3 of them within an hour of where I am as well, but I have heard mixed reviews about working at at least one of them.
>>9015638
>pretending you're marie antoinette
Do you think this is an RP board...?
also Marie Antoinette was a prude so meh
>>9015638
...Glorified Catholic monk bankers from the lamest time in medieval history?
Late Medieval/early Ren is better.
Hi, I'd like to make a simple, elegant medieval dress for next sunday, for a medieval festival. Sorry for being a newbie, but I have no idea what kind of embroidery I should use, and I'm really scared of using something obviously historically incorrect. I would really appreciate if anybody have any inspo or tips for how to decorate? Could I use pic related kind of trim? What about pearls or beading?
I'm thinking about making the dress in cotton, and I want to make a simple, but elegant dress, so not a fancy renaissance one, but not totally peasant/viking either... Also, I have no idea what to do about hair/headwear, any ideas?
>>9015997
location (where in europe), style (peasant or richfag) and exact time period you wanna go for? I might be able to hit you up with some tutorials/patterns
>>9016000
Richfag, perhaps early gothic period?
I'm thinking regular, slim sleeves, (perhaps with embrodery) and either mid waist (like bellybutton high) or lower... To be honest I have no idea what period/location that would represent...
>>9016039
Like, this type of cut (without connected headgear), but embroidered
Here's my Harper's weekly fashion plate collection. I'd love to make some of these gowns...maybe some day...
>>9020171
>>9020175
"Watering place toiletries"
>>9020180
1846
"Godey's unrivalled fashions"
>>9020184
Last one, 1854
"Godey's unrivalled colored fashions"
>>9020171
>>9020175
>>9020180
very pretty!
I'm still kicking my own ass for not buying this any Ackermanns Repository fabric swatch pages when they were on ebay for $30 each. Now they never come up, and the rare occasions they do it's not for under $200 each.
>>9020191
Those are gorgeous, I've been able to find all of these in second hand shops, the torn one was only 50 cents! Gotta get lucky I guess
>>9020180
Argh, if advertisements still looked like this, I wouldn't hate ads as much! Actually, I wish a lot of cosmetic containers resembled the old ones too.
I found a shop on etsy that sells toiletries and cosmetics with old-fashioned labels and using (safe- no arsenic or lead or cadmium etc.) old recipes and I just want to buy ALL the things.
>>9020201
Do you live in the UK? I'm in the US and vintage/antique shops in my area very much abide by "if it's old, I must charge a lot for it!" regardless of the actual value. if I see poorly done celluloid miniatures with price tags at $100+ one more time...!
>>9020216
LBCC Historical? I love their cosmetics. I don't do historical costuming but I buy their liquid rouge (Liquid bloom of roses and a rouge that exactly imitates nature are my favorites) for regular use, it's great. Long lasting, gives a "natural" rosy effect on cheeks or lips, and you can use as little or much as you want... so sometimes I buff a little bit into my lips to make them look less dull and sometimes I go all out to get a striking red lip.
>>9020230
Wow, I've never heard of this shop! The package is so cute. How did you apply the rouge? Just with your fingers?
>>9020227
No I'm in the rural US, maybe it's worse in cities?
>>9020230
Yes! That's the one.
>>9020298
I'm in small town USA too. Must just differ from place to place! I can usually find deals on ebay so it's not a heartbreaking situation, but there's something much more fun about shopping at a store in person.
>>9020252
You can use your fingers, a brush, sponges, plus they sell makeup sponges that are more geared towards historical makeup. For my cheeks I use my fingers. For my lips, I use a modern lipstick brush so I can have more control over how much I use. You let it sit for a bit then you buff it in with a sponge or your fingers.
>>>/his/1184258
Not sure if this will work, but /his/ has a board going with historic costumes if you are looking for more.
I love this stomacher.
>>8991927
If the regency one didn't work for you I'd totally be interested in buying it.
Does anyone know where to get a decent chemise a la reine? I'd love to have one for summer that didn't take YEARS AND YEARS.
>>9029103
Looking at old clothes like this always makes me wonder what the colors would have been like before they faded. It must have been so vibrant.
>>8973971
Do you still work in CW?
>>9040940
Ironically... I just got a phone call and job offer today. Military programing. Going tomorrow to sign the papers
>>9044224
congrats
>>8971935
Why would you not actually link up your hands in that pose? Looks like they just want to cop a feel, but are almost hover handing it.
>>8973869
>that dress
>on dirt
My heart
True or false: the main difference between stays and a corset is the way it shapes your torso/upper body
>>8977930
>rest of pics
Anon you have magnificent taste
>>8971935
What's happening on the floor in this photo? Are those extra feet?
>>8996227
>You'll never be an Edwardian English lady.
Although there is a lot to love about Victorian dress, I think Edwardian takes the cake for my favorite time period. We still had nice full corseting but we lost the crinolines and cages and had "simple" and streamline silhouettes. Hats reached fashion peak before being reduced to shitty degenerate cloches and and fascinators. Kentucky Derby and formal women's hats are pretty much stuck in this era for that reason.
I like the Edwardian trend of piling tresses of thick luxurious hair onto the top of your head and the mature bouffants.
Victorian is great for little girls, Edwardian is for grown-up women.
>>9046257
The issue is that stays historically have been used in the same way as corsets, so you will find it interchangeable in literature.
Typically now people will call a modern shape of Victorian onwards corset and stuff before stays. A lot of the time stays will not shape the hip area or partly do do because of the time. Stays will also then have lacing on the front and back.
>>9046257
>>9047012
In my experience stays are more like bras, except they predate them and are usually stiffer or even boned. But the focus is the shaping your chest. Half-stays are basically just a rigid sports-bra.
A corset is more full figured. Although there seems to be some grey areas between the two.
Would it be appropriate to request any Hamilton cosplay?
>tfw I met an aaron burr cosplayer before I had heard the music
>tfw I only recognized them because of their period clothing
>tfw I didn't ask "pardon me, are you aaron burr, sir?"
>>9045982
Thanks. Im planning on kinda settling down and being their for a while. I hate the business, but the actual colonial city and the coworkers are awesome.
>>9047109
>Hamilton
I swear, this is the worse thing to happen since Assassin's Creed... People CONSTANTLY badly rapping lyrics in Colonial Williamsburg.
>>9046992
It's also my favorite fashion period.
Is there any detailed book on the dresses and fashion etiquette of that period ?
>>9047513
Have you seen a boom in interest in Colonial stuff since Hamilton came out?
I'm so sorry about the terrible rapping.
>>9047864
I have a couple of magazines from that era, I could dig them out and scan some images if you want? There's a couple of pieces on hats and I'm sure there are a few things on clothes.
>>9052555
Not that anon but please dump if you don't mind! I am also enamoures of that era
>>9052555
Do it. Please.
So I'm making a 14th century kirtle and sideless surcoat combo, and I'm confused about under layers. Does anyone know if with a dress like pic related would a sleeved chemise be worn underneath?
>>9053585
Yes I would say so, I think you can even see a hint of the chemise at her right wrist
>>9053585
It would, since it's what stops the dress from getting sweaty. I don't think short-sleeved chemises came about until the 1800s, iirc.
>>9053585
UGH, YOU CAN SEE HER BRA UNDERNEATH THAT. Come on guys, it isn't that hard to replicate period correct silhouettes. This person clearly never even googled the appropriate underclothes..
>>9055009
that's wrinkles from the chemise and headpiece.
>>9055009
That's the wimple and chemise, anon. Also, bras were around back then. Look up 'breastbags', pic related.
>>9040200
I don't know of anyone that makes chemise a la reine dresses outside of commissions, unfortunately. Fanplusfriend used to do a cheap one which wasn't spectacularly well made but was well enough, sadly they discontinued it + the cotton lolita version, now all they have is a very sheer/light chiffon one that they're discontinuing soon anyway.
Your best bet is to find someone who does pattern historical dresses and ask them if they could do a chemise a la reine dress for you.
