Why do Americans always say the corporations/rich are ruining their country? Whenever I reply to a le Reddit post related to this, nobody gives a logical response and I get downvoted to hell. All they say is "they hoard money off shore, they avoid taxes, bla bla bla" when that obviously isn't true.
The US has the 10th highest corporate tax in the world, and their rich pay more than half of their income to taxes after you include state and FICA. On top of that, the US spends more than they do on defense in programs aiding the poor, who pay little to no taxes. The people receiving these aids account for 1.7% of tax revnue, while people making $100K or higher account for 77.7% of tax income. So they obviously are paying their fair share.
Why is "The rich ruin our country" even a thing?
It's a thing in the every country tho
Success breeds jealousy nothing new.
>>1155783
half of this board is filled with people who harbor the same sentiments. The problem is with economists on this board who only see poor people as a sliver of pie, and the 1% as almost the whole entire pie. Another issue is the debate about advancements in technology and how they effect quality of life, what should be considered poverty and what's the government's responsibility to combat issues that stem from poverty. It honestly stems from wealth disparity. I'd argue that we're in a position in this country that being poor isn't that bad depending on where you live but that's my opinion.
>>1155783
>when that obviously isn't true.
A lot do. If they didn't Trump wouldn't be talking about trying to bring that money back.
>So they obviously are paying their fair share.
>Why is "The rich ruin our country" even a thing?
I wouldn't mind paying 77.7% of the country's revenue if that meant I could drive a new ferrari everyday and collect a dividend check every couple months.
>inb4 why don't you start your own business?!
That requires capital. Which I have to get through being an employee from one of these rich people.
Corporations are technically people in the sense that they're a separate legal entity from the owners. Those based in the U.S. have to pay a tax for this privilege.
They often incorporate outside of the country to avoid this.
As a business owner this makes a lot of sense because paying XX% of the corporation's earnings before you get your cut (which is also taxed) really sucks.
Poor people will whine about it while continuing to shop at these same corporations and beg them for jobs.
>>1155783
There's two aspects to this. The first being that while the rich do pay more in income tax, this is largely sidestepped through the acquisition of capital and investment in assets which generate wealth.
The second is that once you get past a certain income earning (117k/year, if I'm not mistaken), you don't pay Social Security anymore, which is 7% of your pay if employed or 15% if self-employed. In addition, by becoming rich, you avoid sales tax, which is highly regressive, since you have different avenues of obtaining things as opposed to Mr. McWage who buys cheap shit that breaks and then has to buy more to replace the shit that broke and so on.
Granted, I am probably talking out of my ass/incorrect on a lot of this, but these are my observations.
>I wouldn't mind paying 77.7% of the country's revenue if that meant I could drive a new ferrari everyday and collect a dividend check every couple months.
Of course you would. I'd love to see you spending your life building your dream, and when it's finally bearing fruit and you're cashing out, you get robbed by the government. And all of the value you created is redistributed to the people who deserve it the least.
It's easy to say that when it's imaginary money you didn't work a day for. It is essentially one's life that is being redistributed via taxes. Absolutely criminal.
>>1155823
>capital
You know how old money stays old money? By looking out for their kin and passing it on to the next generation. You can't fault someone for forward thinking. You know your kids would be wealthy if you actually invested your extra income from your shitty job instead of blowing it on pointless shit? You can do this with the basic amount of creativity and intelligence. Then you would be at a point where you would just be collecting dividend checks one day too. Look at the power of compound interest and you will see that it takes very little money invested every month to eventually turn it in to something meaningful. It just takes a lot of time and your generation wants shit handed to them now with no work. There are tons of opportunities in this world. Even if you hate old money you can't fault someone who's family busted their ass to give them a life. Someone along the line put in the work or effort to make that happen. Even if someone got rich by complete dumb luck, be happy for them. Nobody likes a hater.
>>1155783
I' m not an anti-capelist. However I do think I hold more moderate views than you.
First of all, one counter example. I do not think large tobacco companies, that employ lobbyists to influence politicians, are for the general good, or even beneficial to the economy. Due to their campaigns, more people smoke, get sick, and need costly healthcare and are unproductive.
Secondly, I do think that some more socially oriented policies could increase general well-being, and also the economy. I'm not an American, and my information is based primarily on lectures and news, but from my perspective, if you are poor, it's a lot more difficult to get a prestiges education in the USA than in some European countries. This and other factors regarding education, decrease the motivation for a large proportion of the population to get a proper education. Which results in more criminality and less productivity. Simply said the "I am rich, so my kids should get top notch education, and fuck the rest", harms society and the economy on the long term.
One problem is that a lot of CEO's get rewarded based on their short term results (>4 years), even though this might not be the optimal strategy for the long term. A second problem is that sometimes their potential for gain, is related by a strong inverse gain potential for the rest of the society.
>>1155857
anti-capitalist*
>>1155783
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_inequality#Effects
>>1155863
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rent-seeking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regulatory_capture
Both more common with rising inequality.
>>1155857
>it's easier for rich kids to go to prestigious schools
what kind of rock do you live under? If you're poor in America the govt. gives grants for you to go to school. You can also apply for scholarships and if you're accepted to a school, you receive financial aid. The people who complain "muh education, muh opportunities" were terrible students in high school and/or weren't motivated to go to college
Let me explain the big picture to you, and maybe you'll get it, or maybe you won't.
Flash back to 1945. America was just on the winning side of WW2. Isolationism was dead, and we had the factories, the navies, and the farmlands needed to be the hub of virtually everything that was made or grown and then sold across the globe. We had the banking and corporate apparatus to manage it to. We had fucking everything. As a consequence life was really, really good for everyone of all social classes. The upper class could invest in shares of American corporations and know that there was little to no risk involved because we had the market on goods cornered. Middle class skilled workers and managers had cheap college and nice, cushy jobs at firms owned by family and friends. They had bonuses, and stock options that could propel them up the class chain. The working class? They even got a piece of the pie too: blue collar jobs in those factories paid great wages, union wages, with union benefits, that allowed the class of unskilled blue-collar workers to buy homes and widely become property owners. Everyone could make it if they wanted to, and everything was prosperous.
con'td
Like all golden ages, it wasn't to last. Everywhere else started building factories too. Eventually trade started flowing back the other way. Now for the first time there was risk in the market because American brands could be out competed. But there was also the opportunity to exploit this. The people at the top started outsourcing right and left. Million dollar profits became ten million. Ten became a hundred. A hundred million became a billion. They shifted the short term risk of being being out-competed in the market to the long-term risk of America going bankrupt because it's middle class is broke. They opted out of thinner margins by choosing lower wages. They shifted the risk of market loss to unemployment. All the while they and their white shoe minions got fatter.
So now we're at a turning point. The American Dream, the promise of class mobility, suddenly slowed up. The books are closing. The doors are locking. College tuition prices are spiking. Jobs are drying up, and the ones that are left have lower wages. Now a great portion of this was bound to happen anyway, no golden age can last, but it's hitting the working class and middle class particularly hard because the rich have shifted the burden onto everyone else.
But then you have people who are still drunk on the Kool-Aid. Threads like this bring them out of the woodwork. They're entertaining sometimes, but in a sort of sad side-show way.
>>1155878
>life was good for everyone of all social classes
pls stop posting
pls stop
>>1155876
Like I said, I am not from the USA and I don't know if my views represent reality. Also, I do still think that it's much easier for a rich kid going to a more prestigious high school, will have it much easier, than a kid living in some ghetto which has to rely on obtaining a limited number of scholarships. Here in the Netherlands higher education is so cheap (you even get paid by the government), that it is obtainable for anyone with decent grades to go to a proper university.
And I do know at least some Americans seems to agree with this notion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGx17P_O2LI
>>1155908
Try to see the connection here between the "boomers had it so much easier than millenials" meme, and what's being said here. Essentially, Boomers had it easier because of the ongoing destruction of the middle class, which is directly related to corporate greed running things into the ground more and more.
>>1155908
>an unskilled worker with a 9th grade education could own a house and some land and provide a comfortable life for his family
Man, you really HAVE grown spoiled if you don't understand how good that is in historical context.
>>1155783
Demagoguery to buy votes. Class struggle is completely fabricated by politicians in the US.
Hey man I just want the trillion Dollar mega corps to pay me more than min wage. I'm a huge part of the reason they're rich. I don't care if they avoid paying taxes, just care a little bit about the poor workers. We might decide to shoot up the place if you don't.
>>1155783
>a group who possesses more than 99% of capital resources pays anything less than 99% of the taxes
Totally fair OP! But if Sanders gets elected then those poor rich people will be begging on the street! I crie everytiem. :'(
"WAAAAAHHHHH i inherited millions in excess cash while people starve but i'm too autistic to know when enough is enough because i've been spoonfed everything in life"
"WAAHHHH the govt took a portion of the wealth mommy & daddy gave me to help those in need and i'm a socially stunted crybaby faggot child so i'm going to throw a fit"
>every conservative piece of shit's sob story
>>1156031
Eh I doubt they whine about it. They just move all their wealth to a different country where they are taxed less. All the whining comes from poorfags who think that rich people should give them money just because they are poor.
>>1156042
Like where? Romania? Somalia?
You're a fucking retard. Nobody wants to live in those countries with lower taxes than the US because they're shit countries. All of the modern, liveable countries out there have much higher taxes than the US. Everything is just tax loopholes and shell games because they can't actually move anywhere else hospitable and get lower taxes.
>>1156031
>implying this isn't a trait celebrated by conservatives and liberals
Money's money. Doesn't take a party platform for someone to bitch about having to fork over any part of their millions.
>>1156058
Kek. Dude are you even trying?
>the bahamas
>cayman islands
>bermuda
>switzerland
Also I said nothing about living in those places dumbass. I was talking about moving their wealth there. Holy shit poor people are clueless.
People think that just because corporations are skirting taxes that wealthy individuals must be as well. And then this myth just gets perpetuated.
Here, look at this pdf on Bernie Sanders's website:
https://www.sanders.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/102512%20-%20JobDestroyers3.pdf
It lists a bunch of companies and how they dodge taxes. Why is the CEO's name next to the company's name? Do they think he's solely responsible for the company's tax avoidance? No. It's because they don't want you to understand that JP Morgan Chase a tax evader but Jamie Dimon is not. It's deliberately disingenuous. They want to put the face of some rich asshole on each company so you have someone to hate.
Plenty of people skim docs like these and begin to think rich people are evading personal income tax. They don't understand that the wealthy pay by and large the most personal income tax both in terms of percentage and sheer dollar amount. They don't understand that corporate tax is the thing being dodged. Then they tell their friends and everyone agrees how outrageous it is that the 1% barely pay any taxes even though it's not true at all.
>>1156068
Except that's not what the person you responded to was talking about. The proposition is to close the overseas tax loopholes and make taxes proportional to the share of capital ownership. If that's the case, then they would have to physically relocate to move their wealth.
Switzerland has much higher taxes than the US if you live there and those carribean islands are all extremely backwards third world shitholes outside of the hotels. Good luck finding capable medical care there if you have a heart attack.
Even with tax loopholes, they contribute over 3/4th of the tax revenue, which makes that argument even more retarded. Close the loopholes and it will just prove my point.
>Kids are born rich not fair wah wah
That has nothing to do with rich people ruining anything. Only 230 of the 1,826 billionaires inherited their wealth. So I don't get where that whole "rich people just inherit their money" meme came from either.
>>1155783
I agree to a point
>muh 1%
>muh they dont need all that money
>muh i deserve money for being a lazy cuck
People who worked hard and are successful should NOT have to pay for your lazy bitch ass.
Besides they already pay at least 60 cents to each dollar earned.
Aside from that the cost of running said business and maintaining that life as well.
So do they need billions to live?
no , but if you ahd billions would you give it away to greedy lazy fucks?
every level of social status has greed, lies and scams, so instead of blaming the entirety of the wealthy blame the shitty ones.
Not to mention those imposed taxes and regulations is WHY they out source or move money.
Bernie Sanders for example wants to tax the fuck out of the rich...
hmmm what happens then?
they leave and now the utopia that the bernie cucks want will have no funds.
we need infrastructure
we need to export
we need labor
and to cut taxes and regulations
Some people like living a modest life which is great
Now the middle class is royally fucked by taxes too, paying for lazy cunts to smoke weed urry day.
and to that i say buy sia coin
>>1156083
Agreed most millionaires are first generation and that is a fact
>>1156094
>b-but successful people that did well in school, worked their ass off, saved money and actually contribute to society should be taxed a higher percentage rate than poor lazy people who dont do anything to better their life!
>then to top it off lets use that tax money to fund more social programs that benefit mostly healthy lazy people that cant but dont work!
Seems legit.
>>1156083
Good plebians defend their ruling class to the death, of course.
>>1155844
>all of the value you created is redistributed to the people who deserve it the least.
100% taxation and it all goes to filthy niggers. yup, you sound like you're beneficial to society.
>>1155844
Have fun bitching about how not rich you're going to be and blaming it on the boogey man government.
Meanwhile, I'll just treat taxes as another cost of doing business like buying materials and fill in the spot of being a rich man you could've had.
>>1156006
He means by economic class. Women and minorities being allowed to be more than second class citizens doesn't change the fact that citizens are fucked.
>>1156137
See, the upper level slaves, who have more privileges within their slavery, are told by their masters to despise and hate the lower level slaves. They're programmed, really, from birth to hate the less privileged slaves and to blame them for their slavery, and also to defend their masters against all accusations and all possibility of the masters' losing their position of rulership.
The more privileged slaves don't simply put up with slavery, they demand it, and will spit on and fight anyone who dares to suggest that the established order might change. That's what's going in this thread, and that's what's going on in the world. If you're lucky you will some day realize this, if not then you never will.
>>1155783
Well, to be fair the government has a hand in it.
But yes they are a problem. It comes down to a simple word: sharing.
Let's take it back centuries. Let's say you are a caveman. And your tribe is hungry. And you are smart and have devised an ingenious way to trap and kill a mammoth. Then everyone will have food. In one situation you manipulate this power to ensure that you get most of the mammoth and maybe more fur, and a nicer tent than everyone. In another situation, you get basically all of the mammoth and the people who helped with the hunt all get the scraps. The situation in America currently is more like the latter than the former.
>>1155783
Falling or stagnant wages and increasing wage gap. Americans continue to earn the same median income while purchasing power decreases but upper level management pay continues to skyrocket. Often layoffs occur and jobs moved offshore to preserve profit while the CEOs who make those decisions continue to get obscene bonuses.
Raw income tax data doesn't tell the story. The same way Obongo's 5% unemployment figure doesn't.
>>1156150
>anyone who works or contributes to society is a slave
>we should just abolish work altogether and everyone should be able to just sit on their ass all day and shitpost on a peruvian ass sitting board while the world crumbles around them
You're an idiot dude.
>>1156092
Let's take a look at this post, for example:
>no , but if you had billions would you give it away to greedy lazy fucks?
"The poor are surely greediest among us. Who would think that our ruling class could possibly be as greedy as those among us who have nothing?"
> instead of blaming the entirety of the wealthy blame the shitty ones
..speaks for itself.
>Not to mention those imposed taxes and regulations is WHY they out source or move money.
Our poor put upon rulers, they HAD to move all those jobs to the third world, because of those terrible taxes! Who came blame them, really?
>>1156177
Thanks for sharing.
ITT, people prove OP's point.
People are pointing out disparity, without mentioning the causes and effects. The real issue is the inequality in the environments in which poorer americans live, vs. wealthier americans. They won't have access to the same public education opportunities as others, and the quality of services in the area will be worse obviously. The issue is, I'm not sure increasing taxes will improve these environments.
>>1156156
This has very little to do with the government. If there was no government or regulation the person who kills the mammoth keeps the whole mammoth. Or out of necessity because he cant kill a mammoth on his own, the guy devises a plan so that people who helped him are incentivized to help him in the future by giving them fair portions. This is capitalism. When you add government and taxes, however, this guy is forced to share and the government tells him how much he needs to give not just the people who helped him, but everyone. Society doesnt work well this way. The people who get free mammoth will not only never get off their ass to kill mammoth for themselves but also start to bitch that they arent getting a big enough portion even though they did no work. The government caters to the non-mammoth killers because they make up a large portion of the voting population and because if they starve they start looting, plundering, and killing everyone. So what does the mammoth killer who takes the most risk and spends the most effort do? He gets the fuck out of dodge. He goes to another village down the road where the government taxes him less, regardless if the people there are smelly.
>>1156211
/thread
>>1156211
Your own argument contradicts itself. What you're suggesting is "fair" is that even though every single person threw the same kind of spear and exerted equal effort killing the beast, one guy gets to keep most of the meat for himself because his dad is chief and he comes from a noble family.
If he killed it by himself, then he can keep his goddamn meat, but if he needs other people to kill it for him so he can sit back and reap all the rewards, then those people are entitled to a share that's proportional to their efforts.
![Crucifying-job-creators-sm[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/OfrhshL.jpg "Crucifying-job-creators-sm[1].jpg")
>>1156211
I think you fail to realize what the absence of government means.
>If there was no government or regulation the person who kills the mammoth keeps the whole mammoth.... the government tells him how much he needs to give not just the people who helped him, but everyone. Society doesnt work well this way.
You have this backwards amigo.
Without government in the picture everyone would just take as much of the mammoth as they wanted and would kill those who opposed them. As you can see this creates terrible incentives for mammoth killing and humans become a bucket of crabs.
Government and society exist to say: come here, agree to share a portion of your bounty, promise not to take of my bounty past the agreed upon amount and we will not only protect you from the mammoth grabbing hoards, but we will even invest resources and man power into growing your mammoth killing operation.
This social contract is not perfect, but it is far superior to the alternative. The problem you are talking about is a response to globalization.
The mammoth killers of society have changed. They are no longer acting as great men who bring prosperity to a tribe and reap the benefits of high social position or first right to the best mates. Instead they are acting in almost straight antagonism to the main group. Constantly threatening to leave and take their mammoth killing skills with them if they are not allowed to keep a larger and larger portion of the mammoth. Additionally, they are doing this at a time where food has gone scarce.
If you cannot see the danger of such a shift in position at this time you are blinded by ideology.
Pic related: job creator=mammoth killer.
>>1156240
Thats not what I'm saying at all. The original premise is that a caveman has devised an ingenious way to trap and kill a mammoth. Without this way, mammoths would be harder to kill and take much longer. Let's assume that this trap is made out of wood and the caveman crafted it himself, taking weeks to build. He is not forcing anyone else to use his method of killing, in fact he could probably kill a mammoth himself, it would just take longer and wouldnt be cost effective. So being the creative and resourceful caveman that he is, he entrusts a few of his caveman buddies to help him kill a mammoth. The only thing he asks in return for using his method is to be able to keep the best portion and in turn he will compensate them fairly for their effort.
Now here comes the cool part. One of the cavemen that helps the original caveman sees how effective this trap is and decides to build one of his own. Competition ensues between the two cavemen and this is healthy because now the tribe gets to decide which caveman pays more portion of mammoth and which one has the more effective and effecient operation.
But wait! Here comes the government again. They take portions of mammoth from both cavemen as well as from anyone who aided in the kill and give it to tribe members that neither killed mammoth or built traps. These tribe members who sat on their ass the whole time are de-incentivized. They realize they can get free mammoth for not doing anything. So what do they do? They vote anyone out of power that doesnt agree with raising taxes on both the mammoth trap builders and the mammoth killers. See where this is headed?
>>1156263
You have me totally mistaken. I am neither a libertarian or supporter of pure capitalism in its most basest form. I do see a need for government and even for taxes and social programs. The thing most people dont realize though is that social programs dont really exist for the betterment of society because they are the antithesis of progress. They are just there to feed and corral the livestock so they dont stampede. Without social programs there would be more crime, unrest, prison population would increase and deathrates would skyrocket. Social programs are just as much for the rich as they are for the lazy people (and even the handicapped). They protect society as a whole.
Its a balance. Business owners need working class people and vice versa. You cant increase taxes too much on businesses or they will just do business somewhere else, as is their prerogative. You can't pay working class people substandard wages or they work somewhere else or become that businesses' competition by opening their own business, as is their prerogative. You can't cut social programs altogether or the masses of poor and unemployed will destroy the whole system and kill the working class and the business owners, as is their prerogative.
a1 thread boys, just wanted to say thanks.
>>1155880
articulate, yet weak-minded.
there's still incredible opportunity in this country and there will continue to be for some time.
