>>681130016
I am already Liberty Pelican

>>681130016
Because having a free market will result in sharp changes rather than gradual expansion and contraction of the economy due to the fact it creates bubbles. Management is proven to be the best way for an economy to function

>>681130427
>sharp changes
nope, sharp changes are possible only when someone manages the market up-down in a centralized way

>due to the fact it creates bubbles.
nope

Austrians generally argue that inherently damaging and ineffective central bank policies, including unsustainable expansion of bank credit through fractional reserve banking, are the predominant cause of most business cycles, as they tend to set artificial interest rates too low for too long, resulting in excessive credit creation, speculative "bubbles", and artificially low savings.[16]

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>>681130016

Because I'm not cucked to corporate interests.

>>681131996
corporations as they are today can not exist without government

>>681131025
>People who have years of experience in banking and economics and are massively powerful figures don't know how to manage an economy and as a result are the ones causing bubbles
seems believable
Also, you should post your source bitch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austrian_business_cycle_theory
is a very reliable one aye mate

>>681130016

Because I'm not 15

>>681132246

The government is the last line of defense against corporate interests. Only the government is powerful enough to stop an oligarchy. That's why businesses are forever lobbying to weaken regulation and using bribery to corrupt lawmakers.

If you want to sell your asshole to the highest bidder, go for it. But don't force the rest of us to live under a system of corporate tyranny.

Because the self interest of the ludicrously rich is, who would have guessed, not my self interest. That's why me and everyone around me formed the government, so that there is a regulatory body that keeps the ludicrously wealthy in check.

Clearly, from the beak, this bird is an Anarcho-Capitalist.

>>681133009
>That's why businesses are forever lobbying to weaken regulation and using bribery to corrupt lawmakers.
are you fucking kidding me? corporations are lobbying for subsidaries, licences and so on becauase they want monopoly/oligopoly
free market is an enemy of corporations, especially when combined with infoanarchism

>>681132334
strawman

>>681133265
read about arrizona school of libertarianism

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I am libertarian. Better not to argue.

Our animal is the porcupine. Fitting.

>>681130016
i am. i live in somalia. free market paradise

>>681133009
>Only the government is powerful enough to stop an oligarchy.

Hah, are you serious? The government has enabled the current oligarchy in the US. You think those super PAC donors are just dumping money to politicians out of the kindness of their hearts?

Here's an idea, what if corporations had no motivation to bribe politicians?

>>681134279
libcuck detected

>>681133009

You're not forced to sell anything, unless coporations are lobbying for power. In that case, you are being forced to choose among less competing companies than would be available to choose from otherwise.

That's why taxi companies are shit and Uber is awesome.

Oligarchy cannot emerge without government support, because they cannot last. When a company is misbehaving, it is acting against the interests of customers and the rest of society; this is always an opportunity for an entrepreneur to step in and "fix" the situation, for example by creating a rival company that takes dissatisfied customers away from the misbehaving company.

What we libertarians can't help seeing is that government is always the means by which companies keep competitors from arising or growing strong enough to challenge them. Regulatory agencies originally created via a "grassroots" movement are eventually bought by the biggest companies in the industries they regulate; then regulations are passed that are calculated carefully to prevent competition.

Government is coercion. Yes.

>>681133692

lol

Kid, regulations are the only thing that stop monopolies from forming. Unregulated markets will mathematically always lead to monopolies.

People who think some other company will spring up and compete if a company owns the vast majority of the market ignores reality. The company with majority control can afford to undercut their opponent for years even if it means a loss for their profits for those years. Because once the competition is dead, they can hike shit back up so high they make back their profits. These markets aren't "free markets" they're "captive markets."

Libertarian ideology was taken over by corporate executives/leaders long ago so they could use it to push deregulation so they could make more profit no matter what damage they do to other people or other businesses or the economy as a whole. They don't care about that. They only care about profits. And your ideology, if enacted, would let them run roughshod over our economy and our democracy with no checks whatsoever. What a joke.

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>>681134987
>Kid, regulations are the only thing that stop monopolies from forming
picrelated

>Unregulated markets will mathematically always lead to monopolies.
these are good monopolies

>The company with majority control can afford to undercut their opponent for years even if it means a loss for their profits for those years.
corporations would not be able to undercut 9999 competitive companies, in ancap everyone would be able to set up a business

>Libertarian ideology was taken over by corporate executives/leaders long ago
what about carson?

>>681134692

What you libertarians can't accept is that once a business owns enough of the market, THEY are the ones who kill competition, not regulations.

People who think some other company will spring up and compete if a company owns the vast majority of the market ignores reality. But you can never admit that because it would mean your house of cards ideology is flawed. So instead you blame all the failures of capitalism on regulation to avoid cognitive dissonance.

Unregulated capitalism itself is what kills competition.

>>681134692

To explain my Uber comment:

Taxi companies have been around long enough for their labor unions to have lobbied government enough until they became monopolies.

Uber has not been around long enough. But it will become a monopoly/duopoly with Lyft if everyone continues to hate and condemn the constitution, the founding fathers, conservatives, etc.

Liberals get the social issues right, but are led by politicians who exploit their economic ignorance. The economic ignorance is a product of monopolization of education; it is a general monopoly, spanning the education industry of at least the entire American continent and Europe.

I'm not asserting that economic ignorance was deliberately planned and implemented; however, I don't exclude the possibility.

>>681134374

That's exactly why businesses need to be REGULATED so they don't meddle with the democratic process.

>>681130016

The theories that underpin free market economics are contradicted by emperical evidence.

It's that simple.

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>>681130016
Kindly capitalize "Libertarian," you stupid Randroid fucknozzle. The word "libertarian" was coined to describe Pierre-Joseph Proudhon. As a mutualist-anarchist, I can guarantee you that Proudhon would have cheerfully beaten Ayn Rand to death with a clawhammer while singing the Marseillaise. I know you ignorant sacks of shit are thoroughly dishonest and it's expected that you would steal someone else's terms, lacking the creative capacity to make your own, but have the decency not to force others to have to live down *your* idiot theology of greed.

>>681135441
>these are good monopolies
>good monopolies
>good
>monopolies

Congratulations. You've admitted that unregulated capitalism is a self-defeating process because it leads to the destruction of competition via monopolies.

You've seen the light. You've taken the first step to abandoning an unworkable, childish ideology. I wish you the best.

>>681135441

>these are good monopolies

Let me do some legwork for ya, fellow porcupine.

What he means by "good monopolies" is a company that has "control" of most or all of the market, but which is not using force/violence to control that market share.

Many politicians who we can imagine get bribed lots of money will ask us to view these companies as monopolies that must be regulated in order to allow competition to occur, but the truth is that these companies have done such a great job that they are handling the market well enough for everyone to be satisfied.

This is theory. In the real world, all companies are guilty of partaking in government power/force. Yet theory is like principle; it should still guide what actions you take.

Hint: adding regulations is not the answer. These regulations address symptoms as if they were causes of disease, and only make things worse.

>>681135582

Full government control of the means of production has worked out really well in the past....

But you're wanting "just the right amount" of regulation, right?

Also, how, exactly, will regulating business reduce the influence of money in politics?

>>681135862

I luv you anon.

Those who support hierarchies in civil society are worse than Statists. They are backdoor Feudalists.

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>>681130016
Because I moved out of my parents basement over 10 years ago.

>>681130016
Because I'm not a 12-year old anymore.

because I'm an anarchist
but a cool one, like Noam Chomksy

>>681136101

Why would you put a Government in charge of production?

This is exactly the opposite of what Socialists are fighting for. Socialists want production in the hands of workers, not bureaucrats.

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>>681136181
"Individualism is, in theory, a kind of Anarchy without cooperation. It is therefore no better than a lie, because liberty is not possible without Solidarity, without cooperation. The criticism which Individualists pass on government is merely the wish to deprive it of certain functions, to hand them over virtually to the capitalists. But it cannot attack those repressive functions which form the essence of government, for without an armed force the proprietary system could not be upheld." -- Errico Malatesta

>>681136181

Just curious, how does one guarantee a society without heirarchy?

>>681135527

see

>>681136059

you say "owns the vast majority of the market," but a company can't buy its customers. It must build faith, which gets easily tarnished by misbehavior.

Companies don't spring up in today's world (or the past's world, for that matter) because the larger companies have lobbied government for regulations that limit entry of competitors.

Uber just entered and gave no shits; what it did was "technically" illegal in many counties, cities and states.

In theory business can only offer services, it can't force anyone to do anything. And in theory, only government can force people to do anything.

A problem is the incentives that politicians have to mislead people to believe that we need regulatory agencies; big corporations end up using these agencies to keep competitiors out. They are the ones that bribe/fund these politicians.

>>681136482
>>681136462
this


Anarchy doesn't mean "no rules", it means "no ruleRs"

>>681136560

Consensus.

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>>681130016

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Fuck your "free market"

>>681136464

If socialists knew how to implement that goal, they would be libertarians.

Also, fuck those buttholes talking about hierarchy and whatsuch. No one gives a fuck. I call myself libertarian cuz it's convenient to the context of this thread. Otherwise I don't label myself.

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>>681137043

The "free market" is a thinly veiled means of stealing the resources of mankind. It is bashful robbery.

Communism all the way, why aren't you pure ideology yet?

>>681136576
>>681136059

>arguing for captive markets as though they were a good thing

Sorry mate, any small amount of intellectual credibility you had just went out the window. You have to be incredibly naive to think captive markets are good for an economy, let alone consumers.

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>>681137117
>Also, fuck those buttholes talking about hierarchy and whatsuch. No one gives a fuck

Oh, really?

What do you think Anarchism is all about?

>>681137043

So you want all drugs to remain illegal?

You want Uber and Lyft to be banned and taxis re-throned?

Would you like to create an agency that can ban books as it sees fit? (To end free trade in books)

Oh, I forgot; you pretty much already have the world you want. It's just waiting for you to become a politician and take the wheel! Direct the enslaved-market yourself! Give it your unique character!

No one can control the markets for you. Trust in the heart of the cards.

>>681136464

This is such a bizarre and detached from reality idea...

Businesses are owned by people, the ones you're trying to protect with socialism. You don't get to say "all businesses must be ran this way" without completely controlling the market. There is no free market, there is no competition, when the government forces business to "Give the power to the workers". Where's the motivation to own your company, when you don't really own your company?

Companies don't force employees to work form them. Potential employees already have the freedom to influence the market by choosing to work for companies they see as fair.

>>681137759

It's apparent you are American.

You don't know what "Socialism" means.

>>681130016
because it works on paper and paper only.

>>681134987
As a 35 year old oldfag who has been here since the dawn of time, I must say that I shake my head everytime I see one of you 22 year old try-hards use the word 'kid' as an insult. You're not a distinguished man at 22 or 23 or even 25. Move out of your parents' basement first.

Because I'm past my sophomore year in college.

Free markets arent libertarian?

>>681136765

Well, yeah. Then why not take it a step further and say if everyone agrees to live in an AnCap society, there wouldn't be a heirarchy in terms of freedom and opportunity, just a difference in amount of possessions?

>>681137636

Not sure what you mean.

But I think anarchism is about no government.

I'm not anarchist because I believe government is a manifestation of the collective right to self-defense of a population.

Violence should only be used in self-defense. Therefore government should only be used in self-defense, and should never initiate violence. If it does initiate violence, the people hurt by it have a right to redress their grievances.

The founding documents of our government, which span back 700 years, were based on the above ideas. They were drafted with the intention of creating government according to the above principles.

Republican government is like open-source Linux. Not Red Hat, obviously.

>>681137759
this is such a bizarre and detached from reality idea...

>>681130016
because im not a retard. libs have good policies when it t\comes to the poor and the elderly, but everything is is just fucking stupid.

>>681137966
>As a 35 year old oldfag

Kid, you're talking to a 42 year old...

>>681138025

How can the effective monopoly of resources be "free" anything?

>>681138299
>dyslexic
>still in parents' basement

>>681137759
.....? corporations ARE ppl...last time i checked, ppl cant own ppl ne more

>>681138153
>But I think anarchism is about no government.

Then you don't understand Anarchism.

>I'm not anarchist because I believe government is a manifestation of the collective right to self-defense of a population.

Government and the State was invented by the ruling elites to protect their property from each other and the mass of the population.

>The founding documents of our government, which span back 700 years,

Magna Carta was established in 1215.

Even if its just a few people that abuse a completely free market for their own gain its those that ruin it for everyone.
Being ruthless is an advantage in the free market.
You can not deny that people like that exist it would be like denying reality.
There needs to be a counter force to stop the most ruthless people from controlling everything.

The argument that the government is full of ruthless people too that abuse their powers and positions for more power counts for both sides.

The solution is a control instance that prevents powerful corporations and individuals from destroying the system for their own gains.

If you have no control at all the results will be dystopical.

>>681138675

The 1100 charter of liberties was drafted in 1100.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Liberties


Anarchism: belief in the abolition of all government and the organization of society on a voluntary, cooperative basis without recourse to force or compulsion.

source: google


What you say about the history of governments does not address the foundations of the THEORY which I succinctly stated.

I think it's mostly because all the libertarians I know are fat basement turds.

>>681130016
the same reason im not a socialist. They both put way too much faith in people to govern themselves. The vast VAST majority of people are dumb worthless pieces of shit who are incapable of changing thier lot in life. "you can be anything you want" is the greatest lie we tell children.

The only form of government i could see working is an oligarchy that pretends to be a democracy by letting people pretend to vote. Which is what we have now in the states.

>>681138397

What does, say a smartphone manufacturing company, look like in your proposed society?

>>681130016

>the government is so powerful that is must have strict limits
>Businesses and corporations? Let's let them do whatever they want with no repercussions whatsoever! What could possibly go wrong?

This right here is why libertarianism has never and will never catch on with sane people. It's a fundamentally hypocritical worldview. If you believe the power of the government should be strictly limited to protect freedom, but businesses (which in many ways have much more influence in people's lives than the government does) should be completely unregulated, you are either ignorant or malicious.

>>681138804

Ok but the way they destroy the system is by lobbying government.

A "free market" does not include the bribing of regulatory agencies.

Fuck. We are all too economically ignorant; we are easily led to believe that there is a "monopoly" where there really is just a company that has done a great job and served the needs of a market better than anyone else has figured out so far.

We can't tell the difference between these "good monopolies" and the real monopolies because it is not in the government's interests for us to know the difference.

After all, education is a monopoly owned by the entire West for the purposes of exploiting our economic ignorance. We are pliable.

"I am the tool of the Government
And industry too,
For I am destined to rule
And regulate you.

I may be vile and pernicious,
But you can't look away.
I make you think I'm delicious
With the stuff that I say.
I am the best you can get,
Have you guessed me yet?
I am the slime oozin' out
From your TV set

You will obey me while I lead you
And eat the garbage that I feed you
Until the day that we don't need you
Don't go for help...no one will heed you.
Your mind is totally controlled
It has been stuffed into my mold
And you will do as you are told
Until the rights to you are sold."

>>681139794

Except government has a monopoly of force. Companies don't get to threaten you with violence if you don't buy their product. They are forced to regulate themselves to survive.

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>>681138804
nice post

>>681130016
You've got to be kidding me right? Go back to when there was no labor unions and little to no regulation on companies for safety standards and employee treatment. Without government regulation large industry became glorified slave owners.

Get out of your teenage fantasyland and think about what the past used to be like before government regulation and intervention. Ever heard of teddy Roosevelt? He had to step in and break up the largest trust the world has ever seen and they got away with it for so long because there was no regulation to prevent it. Those companies ran roughshod over the environment logging huge swaths of virgin timber to the point where Roosevelt had to set up the national park system just to keep them from cutting it all down.

Libertarianism believes that the free market best regulates itself. This would be true if people were perfect and moral beings but we aren't. We are selfish and opportunistic.

Study some history and not just dream about what Ron Paul's dick tastes like.

>>681130016
Because I'm not a capitalist, otherwise I probably would be.

>>681141718

We believe that public education is compromised. This includes all levels of education from kindergarten to Ivy League graduate research.

Government couldn't care less about what kind of physics we teach each other.

Economics, history, government; these are the academic areas for which they have the most incentives to manipulate.

>>681141718

Who said anything about no labor unions?

▲
▲ ▲

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>>681142513

Yeah, like the teaching of evolution right? And the moon landing hoax? Or that damned greenhouse effect?

kek

If you believe all the evidence against your opinions is part of a conspiracy to discredit you, no one is ever going to take you seriously. If you can't win an argument with facts and evidence, no amount of crying about conspiracies is going to convince people.

>>681139794
It's got something to do with the fact that Government and Corporations are literally nothing like one another. Other than that though... You're still fuckin retarded.

>>681130016
Because capitalism is evil and there's nothing free or natural about markets and libertarians are, as a rule, insufferable, immoral, and juvenile, coveting and worshiping the wealth they will never possess or wallowing in the wealth they were born into, all the while masturbating with pseudo-philosophical nonsense that aggrandizes them and their pitiful lives as something grand and worthy of respect.

>>681131025
You are wrong.
>>681130016
Because libertarians are fucking retarded.

>>681131025
Austrians also argue that their theories are not based on any observable evidence or facts. Austrians and their theories are more akin to religion than economics. Markets are best not because they work best but because they are moral, and anything that interferes with the "freedom" of the market amounts to tyranny and unfreedom. You and your ilk are the mental equivalent of children.

>>681143302

Good, good. Let the butthurt flow through you.

They are the same in the sense that they both have enough power to subvert personal freedom and therefore both must be firmly shackled for the interest of all free men.

Right wing libertarians don't really care about liberty though, all they do is trip over themselves to see who can be the biggest cuck to corporate interests.

>>681140099
Companies could not function without the state. They need political and social institutions with force and legitimacy to manage their affairs, to maintain the stability of markets and to keep labor cowed and available. There is literally nothing in history that a capitalist has done that was not facilitated by a willing and servile state.

>>681143728
>look at me. I can partake in self-righteous posturing and believe and above average diction makes me intelegent

Put your thesaurus away. Also, holy shit. The amount of blanket statements and subjective ad hominem is giving me acute autism.

Fucking clown.

Because i am not faggot.

>>681144099
>Big words intimidate me!
>I can ad hominem too!

Right back at ya, bozo

>>681143096

Lol.

Businesses that accept government money have less impact on their profits from costs than their competitors. They can lower prices, forcing competitors out of the industry. This is one way a monopoly forms.

The government may then make demands on the businesses, which they must acquiesce to lest government "withdraw support."

QED: government may make demands upon the education industry which the industry is forced to acquiesce to.

Large corporations that are experienced in being assholes buy agencies, bureaucrats, and politicians. Those who are in the education regulating agencies are in a unique position to prevent the teaching of things which would take power away from an aspect of government. This is the aspect of government which is in conspiracy with large corporations which are experienced in being assholes.

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I mean who wouldn't want to be this guy, amirite?

>>681143801
>you're wrong

Whew, thanks for clearing that up. I guess I don't need sources telling me stuff like this when some rando with no sources tells me I'm wrong

>>681144301
>"Education industry"

Our education is, by and large, public and run by government directly. In America at least, it is run on a very local level and municipalities have a fair degree of direct autonomy, through politics, to manage their own education.

This invalidates your entire confused and incoherent point, whatever it was, so maybe take this into account and try again.

>>681131996

Massive false equivalency. Roads are owned, be that by the public or privately, and those owners make rules, which is well within their right to do.

So that in mind, my clearly teenage friend, who the fuck owns the market?

>>681144334

Holy fuck. As a Libertarian, I always secretly find other Libertarians hilarious.

We're not really used to being in groups, I feel. We're like wild cats.

Then again, cats are ultra-carnivorous. And that sucks.

>>681130016
>Libertarian....
>We hate government and want personal freedom
>But government should ban abortions
Go Fuck Yourself

>>681130016
I graduated highschool

>>681130016
I passed highschool economics

>>681130016
I am White Nationalist, National-Capitalist, National-Socialist, National-Libertarian and National-Traditionalist (Real Traditionalism is always National).

>>681144717

Not all libertarians are pro-life. Many are pro-choice

>>681135862
>>681136482
>>681137043
>>.....
lel only edgy 12yo kids like anarchism and only perverted evil faggots like communism. soviet model socialism and communism are the worst evil system.

>>681144654
The few libertarians I have encountered recently enough to reflect upon were as follows:

My hyper-conservative brother in law who is a stay at home dad for my ultra-conservative doctor sister. The irony of this guy and his cooky, almost alt-right at times views on the place of women and religion in society as he basically exemplifies modern family dynamics is ridiculous.

Some faggot from California who pretty much everyone I know except for my best friend hates for being an utterly insufferable and anti-social fuckhead. I've never gotten into a fight in my life but one night at the bars I nearly threw a punch at this tweaked out prick. He either is or wishes very much to be a sociopath, is full to the brim with bullshit and empty talk, and spends his days taking adderall and hitting on women at the bars while making enemies.

Finally, this domestic-terrorist motherfucker I met standing in line for an Infected Mushroom show last winter. He was basically /pol/ incarnate, raving about oil prices, zionist jew bucks, oathkeepers, freeman on the land, and how he and his buddies were gonna fly to Russia and take the railroad to Ukraine to fight for the pro-Russian rebels. Dude didn't have an ID, only his passport. Absolute lunatic.

I wish more of the libertarians I have met in my life were your typical goofy fedora tippers, I might have a better impression of them as a group then.

>>681130016
because anarcho-syndicalism is far more efficient with resources

>>681144550

That does not invalidate my ideas. It's the same as saying the education market is not a free market.

If it is run by government, then schools are not at the mercy of customers who want what's best for their dollars. They are at the mercy of administrators and bureaucrats.

They are not at the mercy of innovative start-up schools.

>>681130016
what if the free market IS state...?

>>681145148
Anarcho communist here, I am not evil or 12 years old but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a bit of a pervert. Then again this is /b/ and pretty much everyone on the internet in 2016 is a pervert in some regard.

If I'm being honest I think the world is fucked and things will keep getting worse until they can't get any worse. The left is broken and useless, reforms are not the answer and the only revolution in the works is one from the hard-right. I see our society and the globe in general as being comparable to an overgrown forest that has been denied the grace of a forest fire for far too long.

A forest fire is an important part of the life cycle of the forest. It is a creative destruction that clears away old growth to make room for the new. A forest that has been deprived of this creative destruction for too long becomes dangerously overfilled with kindling and when the fire finally comes its destructiveness is amplified.

The world today is in the process of igniting that forest fire. Reformers are trying to trim away the kindling and protect the status quo but it is far too little too late, and in spite of my political views I cannot help but say fuck it. There's nothing to be done but to wait and see what comes of it.

>>681145382

>>681144550

Also, you say the municipalities have "direct autonomy" as if this is freedom!

Freedom means each school can manage itself without forceful intervention! God fuck it.

I love arguing, but please re-read the post you replied to now that I've attempted to clarify what I meant.

I know it's shitty of me to ask you to re-read something, but hey. I'm not perfect.

>>681143979
As someone who has taken both introductory courses on economics as well as Constitution & Government AND is a so called right wing libertarian, let me say that the government is only meant to be a shield to protect the rights of the people and the borders of its nation. Pretty much everything else is fucking irrelevant. Businesses are meant solely to succeed. There's a lot to that statement and this is going to be long enough as is so ask before you assume that I'm saying worker safety, benefits, profit margins, and all that other shit is irrelevant, because it isn't.

Government was intentionally structured to be slow, inefficient and constantly back-and-forth between the parties. That way government wouldn't be making hasty or one-sided decisions. Whatsmore, people ellect the politicians.

Businesses have to be quick and efficient, they don't balance themselves because other businesses do that for them. They also don't need a consensus to hire someone.

>TL:DR
>gvt balances itself and protects it's citizens
>businesses balance other businesses and must constantly adapt to outperform the competition, be it in better prices, better working conditions, or better customer service.

>they are nothing alike
>you are retarded

>>681145877
Are you schizophrenic? What was the point of that rant? Have any solutions or just random metaphors?

>>681145936
A school is not a person. Institutions, states, these things do not have freedom. People have freedom, and insofar as they have control over their lives and their surroundings this amounts to freedom. You libertarians have very odd conceptions of freedom. A man starving in the streets is as free as the non-human institution that starves him.

>>681146134
The point is that anyone, right or left, with supposed solutions is full of shit and we're all fucked anyway.

>>681144358
I mean, where are your sources?

>>681145877

You know your shit.

But why not have hope? Sometimes hope makes all the difference, and without it we may be lost.

And then, even if the apocalypse comes, we can at least know we did our best, and laugh courageously into the afterlife.

I believe in a material "afterlife," which is really just an infinitely "elongating" experience as the number of moments the mind has for comparing with each other as we approach the "last moment" decreases.

>>681146542
No idea. Ask the guy who posted. I'm just your typical asshole whose backing the guy who put more effort into his post

>>681136013
natural monopoly does not forbid competition u moron, it simply means that all customers use buy services/goods from one company

>>681144834
>I'm blue, black, white, and purple at the same time in the same places

>>681146326

Those are composed of people. It is the freedom of people in groups.

An institution/group cannot starve a man unless they use the government to get rid of their competition, at which point they may raise prices until he cannot afford their food.

If they were to try this without using the government, and they raised their prices without regard to their costs, another company could step in and offer the same, similar, alternative products at prices that more accurately represent their costs of producing them. The company which initially tried to raise its prices would then be forced to lower them.

The higher they attempt to raise prices past the cost of production, the more incentive there is for entrepreneurs to enter the situation and compete.

>>681147172

I meant " ...the same, similar, or alternative products..."

>>681135582
>implying that everyone wants democracy
people should not be coerced to participate in a system they do not want to participate in

>>681146574
I have hope for the planet and hope for the people who might see the end of these turbulent times, but for the society and the institutions and the way of life we have built? These things are hopeless in and of themselves. They have outgrown their usefulness and are nearing their expiration date. They are caught in the snare of economic stagnation, political illegitimacy and environmental degradation, each of these being mutually reinforcing.

Many great civilizations of the past have expanded and grown and prospered until they ran up against hard limits, whether those limits were environmental, political, technological, etc. I feel like ours, the civilization of global neoliberal capitalism that has reigned unopposed since the collapse of the soviet union, has finally hit its own hard limits and no amount of hopeful attitudes and dutiful work will undo this. All that is left is to see it collapse and see what may come after.

In the best case scenario I can envision, after a few decades of fascist bloodletting in the west and an environmental purge in the already resource-scarce developing world, the survivors can take our technology and the wisdom of hindsight to create a new way of life which does not suffer from the many problems we currently face. Bigness is perhaps the most pressing of those problems. Modular economies of scale which are highly decentralized, communal, mechanized and conform strongly and sustainable to the contours of environmental time and place are the clearest answer to many of our political, economic and ecological difficulties. But as I've said before, the old growth has left no room for these new developments. Only after the fire has gutted the forest can these new, dynamic and resilient trees grow in the fertile soil left behind.

>>681145990

Let me add to your argument that businesses are also meant to be allowed to fail without being bailed out by governments.

It's like evolution and natural selection. If we don't allow natural selection to occur to businesses, we are encouraging inefficiency and destroying the economy.

>>681134374
You do realize that those PACS are a result of special interest lobbying by the people who came up with the 'libertarian' buzzword to fool angry voters into thinking voting for no government regulations will benefit them

>>681135662
nope
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarcho-capitalism#Historical_precedents_similar_to_anarcho-capitalism

>>681147389
And alt-right neoreactionaries should all leap off a bridge

>>681135862
we do not acknowledg intellectual "property"

>>681136181
>Those who support hierarchies in civil society are worse than Statists. They are backdoor Feudalists.
hierarchy is natural u moron, of course i do not mind you setting up voluntarist non-hierarchical community

ITT: Charles Koch samefags through the use of branching networks of dummy-ips. David jerks off in the corner and cries, "I love you big brother."

>>681147989
An argument from nature about human beings is the litmus test for philosophical retardation.

whats a libertarian?

>>681147515
That too. bailouts kind of fit into the "irrelevant" category for government anyway

>>681130016
Because I'm an educated white male, who actually works for a living, and understands economics.

>>681148241
In America it is a Republican who pretends that they don't hate gays, drug users and abortion to try and appeal to the youth vote. Not sure about other countries.

>>681147459

>Modular economies of scale which are highly decentralized, communal, mechanized and conform strongly and sustainable to the contours of environmental time and place are the clearest answer to many of our political, economic and ecological difficulties.

Absolutely. Let's be survivors.

Violence is inherent in man, but transcendence is a possibility. Just as materials are inherent to the guitar, and its music itself is a possibility.

>>681136464
but even social anarchism leads to "state" owning means of production
google anarchodistributionism fag

>>681148241
Someone who believes in personal freedom with personal accountability.

>>681130427
>Implying over reaching laws and the Federal Reserve havnt caused every single recent financial bubble

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Because I'm not retarded, libertarians are nothing more than shills for corporate business.

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>>681130016

I am not utterly retarded.

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>>681136482
picrelated
also malatesta was an anarcho-pluralist

>>681130016

i don't know but you know what just occurred to me? i bet those "black" lungs of former smokers got that dark within the first few months. people smoke until 90 and well, they still breathe fine and less oxygen means less cancer--oxygen=aging and cancer--and whatever.

>>681130016
Coz I;m not a brainwashed AMerican

A government is also only as good as the people that make it up. There can be ruthless authoritarian people at the top of it as well see Putin or Erdoan.

In a way those governments can act as a monopoly because they provide services that no one else can provide and decide on which rules you get those service.

This wouldn't be a problem if we were living in a real democracy where there is a control instance lying with the people to regulate. (Which is actually a thing a real democracy must have to be called so)

If governments were treated like companies with a board of directors that actually represent the population to counter the influences of ruthless people lobbying for their own personal gain there could be a real democracy.

But this would only work if we assume that people actually step back from their own personal gain to help improve the situation.

This all boils down to that people can not be trusted unless they cant get a personal gain and since that's currently highly unrealistic you need to control both governments and interest groups

>>681145990

>you took the time to type a reply that doesn't even address the point I made

Yep you're definitely at the intelligence level of a libertarian.

Both government and business have ample power to destroy personal freedom. The means by which they accomplish that may be different, but the effect is the same. Bureaucracy and all that other shit you wasted your time typing doesn't have relevance to this point. Your argument is like saying murder with a knife is a different process compared to murder with a hammer, so we should treat them differently based on that alone.

Look I know libertarians aren't used to making arguments to people outside their echo chamber, so maybe I'm being too hard on you. Discussing these things might be a little over your head, and I don't feel like explaining simple arguments for you again and again even if those arguments do put the nail in the coffin of your ideology. Just keep in mind there is a reason why libertarianism is not popular - most intelligent people tend to see straight through it.

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"Heaven preserve us from the sincere reformer who knows what's good for you and by heaven is going to make you do it, like it or not"

>>681148344

What do you think about regulatory agencies?

I do not know enough about the issue. Should they exist, or what is wrong with them? Why do they seem to always end up in conspiracy with large companies in the industries they regulate? Is it because the people in general know nothing of economics and therefore the problem originates in education?

But if the problem originates in education, then how did the previously-educated people allow education to become compromised?

Maybe what's missing here is a specific, obvious, and optimistic point: that economics has not always been known and we are as a whole gaining more knowledge every century. So the control of education will not last forever, either.

What are your ideas? I need.

>>681137235
free market is mutually voluntary and gainful cooperation. no one is forced to participate in free market

>>681148535
I think I understand what you mean, and more or less that's what I think my ideal possible future encompasses. We have the tools to make human life more free, prosperous and meaningful than it ever has been before, but lack the will to make it so. The collective suffering on the horizon is as effective a fire as any with which we might forge such a will. But the suffering is unavoidable. Brahma and Shiva are two halves of Vishnu, after all.

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>>681149209
~milton friedman

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I think this quote sums it up nicely

>>681149333
The man who said "privatize everything" and is the personification of neoliberal greed, excess and the cult of the free market and its pseudo-morality.

>>681149515

The anon who didn't read any of this thread. Which would take too long to do before it 404'd.

>>681149390
misuse of the words: Mommy, Daddy and adult.

This could mean anything but it really does mean nothing.

>>681149296

Of course. Just as no one is "forced" to eat or breathe either. You could stop at any time.

(please do)

>>681149737
Been here from the start, I understand Friedman and his asinine philosophy plenty
>>681149738
This

>>681149515
Socialism is force man. I don't care what your intentions are. Most of the oligopolies, monopolies, tax cuts and subsidies that people complain about corporations for having are just given to them by the government which you want to give more power.

>>681149333

>pushing an ideology that convinces people that doing what is best for the rich is actually best for them
>jewish

It never fails.

>>681149913
This is true. It should be legal to be homeless and jobless, which it is currently not. It is made illegal by the state to sleep on a park bench.

Made illegal by the same state socialists want to give more power to.

>>681150137
jews are just an example of an in-group that has incredible lobbying force.

Its a popular example that got stigmatized so bad i cant even talk about it in my country.

>>681150131
I want to give people more power over the government. Well, I would if I didn't think things weren't utterly fucked beyond repair. The cure to the excesses of state capitalism are not more state or more capitalism but more and more genuine democracy.

>>681149955
>>681150137

I see.

Well, it's been fun chatting. I always enjoy constructive arguments. Till next time!

>>681150369
no seriously its not about hating jews its about hating lobbyists that want to grasp power at the costs of everyone else.

its also a very rough generalization and that's why its not good to use it as an argument.

>>681150137
If it didn't make a difference how hard you worked nobody would work hard and we would all starve. Look at the USSR, look at Venezuela.

You could say that those governments were evil and corrupt and were terrible examples of socialism. But wherever there is more power over other people's lives there is more opportunity for corruption and more opportunity for the bad morals of force to overcome the good intentions of socialism.

>>681150376
still, democracy is just the majority imposing on the minority. The more decisions that democracy can make the more oppressive it will be of the minority.

>>681150280

I don't think you know what socialism is.

You've just been told it's a bad word that you shouldn't like.

>>681130427
Here's someone who doesn't understand economics.
Bubbles are the markets way of letting consumers know that prices are messed up (usually as a result of the management you propose)
The free market insists on gradual changes to naturally eliminate the bubble. Interventionists suggest that we take quick action to alleviate the problems caused by the bubble, but that usually ends up creating more problems.

If we don't try to steer prices, then they'll work exactly how they're supposed to.

>>681150809
again this boils down to that there needs to be some kind of control for people too.

A system in which if they don't work they wont be able to acquire certain services or goods.

Capitalism takes great care of that

I honestly think with the combination of an educated, intelligent populace, a true free market could take place of government with minimal issues. Too bad there's some dumb mother fuckers and greedy businessmen out there to actually happen.

>>681150982
Mob rule =/= democracy

To me democracy is not about 51% of people imposing their will on the other 49%, it is about every decision that gets made being made by the people it impacts. If someone wants to strip mine a mountain the people who live on that mountain should make that decision (or at least their views should be given more weight), not the numerical majority of people who live elsewhere and are not impacted by that decision.

>>681151329
That's why the most unregulated and uncontrolled sector in our economy builds the biggest bubbles.

*puts on tinfoil hat* I hope you are ready for the Bailout Bubble to pop

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Pic related.

>>681151581
This is because libertarians are pseudo-religious in their reverences for markets. As long as something can be construed as of the free market, it is immediately better for it and washed clean of any contempt for its problems because, having arisen from the best and most moral system, it is inherently good.

>>681151508
the ancient Greece had a nice system of representative democracy that worked because the members of the government were random and not elected.

seems quite counter intuitive at first but lobbying is really hard when your government changes its people every couple of months


of course that aspect was thrown out by the leaders of the french revolution who didn't want any control of the population over the government.

>>681149209
There has never been any evidence that lower minimum wage increases employment.

>>681151780
True that. The irony is that you'll never find a more centrally planned entity than a traditional corporation.

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>>681130016
What kind of bird is that? His beak looks like a banana!

>>681151812
Yes I am familiar with that and a democracy by lot is certainly a hell of a lot more democratic than the current system of politics in my country. The thing about the democracy of Athens was it was built on slave labor. I think the democracy of the future will be built on the labor of machines. We are already headed towards the end of work, society needs only to wrap its head around the concept that people do not need to work 8 hours a day for wages and benefits, let alone 12 for slave wages and no benefits, in order for growth and prosperity to continue and benefit all.

>>681151986
and damn do they fuck up a lot when trying to be ruthless.

See VW with the CO2 drama

>>681151561
That's completely untrue
Every modern bubble occurs in a heavily regulated sector.
Housing, tuition, healthcare, the state intervenes in all of these sectors heavily

>>681130016
check the yes man fix the world

>>681151447

In order for that to work we would all the people involved would need to be perfectly moral beings.

Kind of difficult since CEOs are more than 4 times as likely to be sociopaths.

>>681152172
the state intervenes in all of these sectors heavily at the behest of the businesses involved in these sectors*

>>681152084
except that slave labor while disagreeable isn't the reason why the democracy worked back then.

its more how their economics worked. And being a slave in ancient Greece isn't the same as being a slave in a cotton farm.

I

>>681152172
only that it really wasnt effectively controlled. There was noone going around checking the ledgers of banks for bad credits and bubbles.

If you want to effectively control bubbles you need to well look for them and stop pretending that they cant occur because the market would fix them anyways

>>681152452
I think its a bit simplistic to argue that the economic half of a political-economy does not impact how well a given politics functions. And yes the helots of Greece are not a perfect analogue to the chattel of the Antebellum south. Regardless, my point stands.

>>681152629
>If you want to effectively control bubbles you need to well look for them and stop pretending that they cant occur because the market would fix them anyways

Fucking this. Dear Libertarians, stop pretending that the bubble in 2008 was the fault of regulation when the regulators at the time were quite literally arguing that finance could and should regulate itself.

>>681152709
Your point being that the Greek model was bad because there were slaves?

>>681130016
Because i am entitled to whatever SOCIETY produces so i don't have to! Ha. Pay up

>>681134987
>what is the Indian auto industry in the 90s

I am not a JEW