prove that he isnt

We'll all be bored to eternity. Fuck it.

Then we are all fucked. An egotistical, vindictive, heartless bastard as the master of the universe..... yeah we'd be fucked.

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>>693457141

i probably still wouldn't be christian, basing your morality on reward and punishment is pretty childish

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>>693457141
What if Thor is real? I don't understand you guys if you're gonna worship some fairy tale at least pick a cool one.

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>>693458040
That' not how heaven works

>>693458044
>>693458355
>I'm smarter than god

>>693458197
disgusting

>>693458470
>tips fedora

>>693458044
We are doomed just in virtue of being here on b

>>693459158
>>I'm smarter than god

Every living mammal is smarter than some nonexistent concept.

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>>693459158
How am I tipping a fedora? Please do tell how you just happened to be born in the right region at the right time in history to worship the correct god. Go ahead I'm waiting. What happens to the billions and billions of others that weren't born with that luxury?

>>693458831

>>693457141
Then FUCK him. My holy land is Europe, not some shitty middle-eastern desert.

>>693459350
Every living mammal is smarter than you, dumbass

>>693457141
Then he's an asshole.

>>693459158
>That' not how heaven works

Enjoy singing praises to god for eternity, you submitive cuck.
If the Christian God is real, killing that insane tyrant is our morale duty.

>>693459494
im not that guy but have you heard of a coincidence. you could be born in the right time in history to worship the correct god by pure coincidence

He is bro

>>693458044
>I know nothing about God but here's my opinion about him

>>693458355
>Even if God is real I would choose eternal separation from Him
You are the smartest person I have ever met in my entire life, no really, I'm totally not being sarcastic

Then literally everyone is fucked.

If you think a god of his character will let you live in paradise for all eternity then think again.

>>693459799
>Moral duty comes from God
>It's our moral duty to kill God
lmao, alrighty then

also
>morale

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spoiler alert: all your gods are this guy

There is no evidence or reason to believe he is.

>>693459813
Or you could...not be.

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edgiest thread today, good job OP

>>693459961
Nice damage control tho.

We're on a if scenario. If the christians are right and god does exist, any observation of his past behavior informs us he is a maniacal beast by our superior modern standards.

I'd take great pride in taking him down, as God is an enemy of moral and virtue as they are commoinly understood today.

>>693460118
The historical evidence for Jesus is better than for Alexander the great

Don't voice your opinion if you haven't done your homework, dummy

>>693460118
his

>>693460366
>historical evidence for a guy that existed is evidence for a supernatural creator

>>693457141
literally everyone is going to hell

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>>693457141
>>693457141
I'm going to be okay because a blood pact was made between Him and I at birth, so even if my treacherous blaspheming of today is ultimately to be judged, it won't matter.
>I also believe that if the Christians did somehow get it right, I will be reunited with my foreskin upon entering the pearly gates.

>>693459865
i mean, if the christian god exists, he's clearly not an omni-god because problem of evil, so why should i give a fuck?

obama is more powerful than me but i don't worship obama

>>693459350
>implying
>>693459494
To be christian is a choice not a privilege. Also heathens don't implicitly go to hell, that's an old meme.
>>693459799
You know heaven isn't like in South Park.
Also how can you condemn God? You don't know why he acts like he does.
>what is hybris?

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What if Jesus was black?

>>693460366
>citation needed
Historical evidence being what exactly? Roman documents of the crucifixion? Eye witness accounts? Please point to me a single piece of genuine historical evidence that's not the shroud of Turin

>>693460634
I don't have any indication he exists at all.

>>693460276
>he is a maniacal beast
>by our superior modern standard
Oh wow, just wow

Superior compared to what? other peoples subjective view of morality? what makes yours superior to theirs? In fact, on what basis are you even making any moral judgments?

If it wasn't for God, good and evil as such would not even exist, so given your worldview, what you said would literally be gibberish. Take a philosophy lesson kid, you have no idea what you're talking about

He is, and he lives on planet kolob.

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>>693457141
Then we're all going to hell

>>693460366
as far as i'm aware the only non biblical contemporary source is josephus, and its widely believed that the part relating to jesus is a later forgery

that might be more than alexander the great, but only because the original sources are lost to history, they are cited as sources in the later writing though, its fairly reasonable to assume that they did exist

>>693460366
That is evidence for a man, not a god.

>>693460779
>If it wasn't for God, good and evil as such would not even exist
Wow, saying something this dumb then telling someone else to take a philosophy class.

>>693460736
How about the Bible?

>but it's not-
Shut your mouth and talk to a historian, and he will tell you how historical and true those documents that make up the Old and New testaments are. Even non-Christian historians can tell you that the crucifixion of Jesus is historically factual 100%, of course they deny the resurrection, based on their rejection of the supernatural only though

>Eye witness accounts
Correct, you guessed it man! Good job!

>>693460414
Correct, too bad you're such a loud mouthed moron that you don't realize that your sarcasm is actually true

>>693461153
How is "this guy existed" evidence of god?

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>>693457141
Then I'm fucked

>>693460598
>babys first theodicy
>>693460750
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Existence_of_God

Creationism has pretty much been debunked on any level by now.

>>693461017
So what? Why do you NEED to have other historical sources when you already have plenty of it, from multiple different sources spanning many years?

You do realize the Bible is a collection of many documents, written by many people, not just a single book written one time in one language, right?

It is the BEST source of historical information ever, why reject it? because it's religious in nature?

>>693461037
A man who spoke in the place of God, who was crucified for it, and then vindicated for it by God through the resurrection

>>693461146
>What you said is dumb
I'm still waiting for the reason why... oh THAT was your argument? hahaha

>>693461312
This, maybe Jesus was a deep philosophic intellectual who traveled and preached peace and tolerance in what he presumed to be the best context for effecting change.

>>693461663
There is no historical evidence of a resurrection.

>>693461532
i mean, i don't really need another one if the first one still stands unexplained

theres the free will argument, but it doesn't explain natural evil, and youknow, assumes humans have free will, which is by no means a given

>>693461663
Wow, a religious martyr. That's novel.

>>693461618
this

god of the gaps gets smaller every year

>>693461312
If the claims of Jesus were real, then he was vindicated by God, which means he truly was the son of God, which means God exists.

The question then is, were his claims real? Is what the Bible says true? I wouldn't use this as evidence for God though, but rather to narrow it down to Christianity. If you wanted evidence for a generic monotheism, there are plenty of other arguments.

>>693461663
because proving the bible with the bible is circular reasoning

>>693461922
>If the claims of Jesus were real, then he was vindicated by God, which means he truly was the son of God, which means God exists.
Holy assumption anon

So God is an old white guy playing Risk with the devil and sending people to hell for masturbating?

>>693460366
exceptional claims require exceptional evidence

>>693461754
Well we have to live here for like 80 years. After this we live in the greatest joy for all eternity. With this in mind isn't the mite pain in the world negligible?

Give me three pieces of plausible evidence or reasoning to believe in god

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>>693462089
>I'm so edgy

>>693462678
This is not a response.

>>693461750
There are plenty of eye witnesses whom Jesus appeared to as the resurrected messiah, and even the Jews at that time attempted to explain the missing body of Jesus by saying "the disciples stole the body" because they themselves could not believe what had just happened

Your accusations are as old as the Bible itself my man

>>693461945
Oh yeah, that's exactly what I was doing. Why don't you continue ripping that bong and let the sober minded people talk

We're talking about Jesus being real, and I'm talking about the Bible as my historical source, you weed smoking tool. If your hate for Christianity is so strong, just replace Jesus with some other historical character, and the Bible with the best source of information for the life of that character, then maybe your sinful and prideful heart will understand what is happening

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If the Christian God was real, we'd all be punished in hell, including 95% of Christians, because they violate the laws of the Bible that they preach.

Not an Atheist.

>>693462529
the problem with this argument is that you assume religious belief doesn't cost anything, but it does

i'm not willing to give up all my vices for a vague hope of something that makes no fucking sense

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>>693461663
>It is the BEST source of historical information ever, why reject it

>>693462758
>eye witnesses
>from secondhand accounts written decades after the fact

You kinda lose the strength of eyewitness accounts when they are not actually witnessed by the author.

f

>>693462740
It's appropriate to the niveau of your post.

>>693462400
No they don't, stop parroting famous Atheists line just because they sound smart. Your words hold no substance whatsoever.

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>>693462777
>777

He speaks the truth.

>>693462652
>muh bible
>muh bible
>muh bible

>>693457141
What if sandnigger god is real?

>>693463074
No, it's a copout.

>>693457141
Vastly more likely he is not.

>>693462758
ok, example
is king arthur real? a guy wrote a book about him, and it references a bunch of real historical events

to be fair i'm not 100% certain jesus didn't exist, but if your source contains magic its probably not very reliable

>>693457141
then he/she/it is quite clearly a monstrous maniac.

>>693463081
why don't they?

>>693463035
They are not decades after the fact, and EVEN if they were, it does nothing to prove that it wasn't true.

If you're going to claim that what they saw was false, then you better back it up.

>>693457141
What if there were more than 2 genders?

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>>693460276
>past behavior informs

Our failures to understand and worse the Church's teaching of out right falsehoods is the real issue.

We are all of us one of 3 groups.

We are either the Angels that were fooled and deceived by Lucifer.

We are the Angels who could not choose a side in the battle that then was.

Or we are those Loyal to God but arrogant enough to demand that God destroy the other two groups.

God made all 3 groups become flesh so that we might learn humility and empathy for one another and quit fighting and killing one another.

Additionally God said he too would do this test or plan himself and went so far as to say which clan he would be born into.

Sadly after doing that he was forced several times to defend against the actions of Lucifer who tried in many ways to end the existence of that same clan (Hebrew).

Simply put mankind is not separated from God because of the actions of Adam and Eve "eating apples" there was no sin of "eating" in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve also were the first Hebrew people not the first humans ever else why would Cain be banished to live among the "People of the land of Nod"?

No it is OUR lack of understanding that prevents us moving back to God.

But to be sure rare is the Church that will ever teach the truth or save a soul. The Journey must be a personal one.

>what if

God is real

I have no doubt that Jesus existed at one point, and was a good man who we could all learn from, but I don't buy the supernatural powers, not do I buy the concept of an all-powerful entity who created our known universe by some kind of willful design.

>>693457141
Then everyone is fucked, even the christians. The Christian God is a demented mad man, and absolutely none of his laws are obeyed. He has a law for dress code, hairdo, food that you can eat and a lot of other nonsense that absolutely no fucking one follows. Well, maybe the fucking Mormons, but they also believe in some nonsense regarding Jesus, so they would all burn as well.
We would all be fucked.

>>693463414
>EVEN if they were, it does nothing to prove that it wasn't true.
Uh, it would cast huge doubt on it, actually.

>>693463473
or god isn't real

>>693462652
they can't answer that

>>693462793
Here's a complete list of all things you have to do to go to heaven:
1: Don't be an asshole towards your fellows
2. That's it.

Isn't that hard, isn't it?

>>693463977
there goes 99% of Christians then

>>693463977
well you say that, but that doesn't seem to be what most christians believe

>>693463283
If you're truly interested in understanding, take a listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HgRWvqf-wM

Just because the odds of something happening are extremely low, or does not occur naturally (is a miracle), doesn't mean that it requires extraordinary evidence.

>>693463214
I haven't studied the evidence for him, but based on what people say, I'd have to trust that he was real. If I really wanted to be certain and my life depended on it, I would do the research myself.

>but if your source contains magic
Ah, so if God exists, miracles are impossible, and therefore we should reject any text that talks about God and his works. Makes perfect sense

An hero.

>>693463977
I love how religions claim to practice love and tolerance, but so many religious people completely ignore this. All groups assholes, Christians and atheists are no exception.

>>693463977
Depends which of the existing 10,000 different sects of Christianity do you belong too? What there's not over 10k different views of the Same religion? Better get to googling.

>>693463140
>So God is an old white guy playing Risk with the devil and sending people to hell for masturbating?
Yeah, your post is really deep and thought-provoking. You're very sophisticated for a teenager.

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If he is real we are all goint to hell anyways

Are we really going to havve the same theological discussion we had millions of times in this board already?

>>693461618
This. Science marches on, well past the outdated claims of creationism.

how long doe one heat a hot pocket in the microwave for?

>>693464446
What part of that is wrong?

>>693457141
But Allah is already real.

>>693457141
What if unocorns are real?

>>693463895
1. Cosmological argument based on the big bang
2. Objective morality
3. The fine tuning of the universe

>>693463791
It would maybe a little, but you have to remember that most historical texts were written way way way after the events themselves. Compared to the Bible, the Bible is actually extremely close to the original events, more so than any other historical text

>>693464521
literally all of it

>>693464607
So masturbating isn't a sin

>>693464581
There is no objective morality

>>693464581
Explain 1 and 3.

>>693464581
i really don't like the fine tuning argument,
of course we live in the universe with all the right conditions for our existance, because if it diddn't have those conditions we wouldn't be here to observe it

>>693464281
The problem here is that he is comparing the lottery to the extraordinary powers that Jesus is reported to have possessed. Winning a lottery is not extraordinary. Someone has to win. It's unlikely, granted, but it's not as though it breaks testable laws of the universe. I don't think this is "Extraordinary". This is not the case with the powers Jesus is reported to have possessed.

>>693464581
>Compared to the Bible, the Bible is actually extremely close to the original events, more so than any other historical text
what

>>693464669
depends who you ask, not to protestants, i don't think its ever mentioned in the bible

>>693464581
are you implying that objective morality objectively exists?

>>693464716
Easy to say that, but as soon as you're convicted for a murder you did not commit, you're going to scream "INJUSTICE!!!!", let me see your fedora then

So what you're telling me is that if society changes in the next 100 years so that everyone believes that raping babies and stealing are good, they become good? Don't get triggered yet, think about it

>>693465138
>being angry that you're wrongfully convicted proves god is real

>>693464581
Those don't hold up.

>>693465138
>i don't like it if a thing happens to me, therefore the cosmos has decreed that thing to be bad

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Naturalism is infinitely more plausible and based in logic and evidence, and guess what, no god needed.

It's literally impossible to know god is real.
All you will ever have is totally blind faith.

Seems worthless to me to never know for sure.

>>693464087
>>693464189
>>693464377
>>693464400

I don't know how it's in USA but here in Europe there are catholics and protestants. That's it, no sects. Both sides preach >>693463977
I guess if so many of your "christians" are fanatic assholes it's just because so many Americans are fanatic assholes.

>>693464800
1)
1. Anything that begins to exist requires a cause for its beginning
2. The universe began to exist (See: Big Bang)
3. Therefore the universe has a cause

Now some homework: think about the possible causes of the universe

3)
Basically there are many constant values in the universe that have simply "been set", which if the are altered even by a tiny bit, would not allow for life in the universe

>>693465122
Correct, if I see a baby getting murdered, I'm not going to think "hmm I wonder if that was wrong"

>>693464982
what what? can't you read?

>>693465138
yes, if society decrees raping babies to be good, it becomes good, there are examples of this happening thoughout history, when you say something is immoral all you're really saying is "i don't like it"

some things, like murder and theft are pretty universally not liked by all people, because they're obviously not good, but even these have examples of being morally justified by societies, human sacrifice, taxation in general (inb4 libertardian)

>>693465605
big bang is the cause

>>693465447
>>693465447
>>693465447
DMT /thread

>>693465220
>>693465313
I said don't get triggered and think about it

Well, whatever, the next time someone treats you badly, remember the words you spoke like idiots on /b/

Mark my words, because you will IMMEDIATELY recognize objective morality when it affects you

>>693465273
Oh, okay, years of studying and research and books by philosophers are just brushed off by some random punk on 4chan. That's just rich.

>>693465605
well some people believe objective morality exists, there are ok arguments either way, but it is by no means confirmed as objective fact

>>693465605
how do you leap from that to "the christian god is legit"?

>>693465806
Do you even know what the big bang is?

Oh my God, are you just randomly replying to me, hoping I would stop replying back?

I think I'm going to have a heart attack from the stupidity on this board

>>693457141
If he's real, then he probably doesn't give a shit about us.

>>693465961
Do you?

>>693465910
I don't, that leap is done using historical evidence for Jesus. These arguments at best provide evidence for generic monotheism.

>>693465874
why do you think you not liking something makes it universally true?

for instance, the greeks thought slavery was totally fine, we don't, what makes us right and them wrong?

>>693457141
we'd all be high

>>693465605
Values such as?

>>693466040
It's a model that describes how the universe began to exists and how with time, space expands, hence the cone-like shape. It has no causal power, it's a MODEL

Now go read a book

>>693465138
What society has considered good and bad has vastly changed over time.

>>693457141
The Christian god can't be real, because the traits he is supposedly possessing are both contradictory to eachother and contradictory to what we observe in the real world.

Some other god could be real, though.

>>693466206
Incorrect.

>>693466104
>for instance, the greeks thought slavery was totally fine, we don't, what makes us right and them wrong?
Exactly! :)

Now let's assume that the Nazis won WW2, and managed to brainwash or exterminate everyone who disagreed with them, so that killing homosexuals would become a moral duty.

Do you think it's objectively wrong, or just as subjective as preferring chocolate over vanilla ice cream?

>>693457141
Then most of us around here are probably fucked

>>693466358
see
>>693462529

>>693466360
Ah okay I see, thank you for explaining to me why I'm wrong

Oh wait...

You don't have to worry about that sweetheart. It isn't.

>>693457141
Then he's done a shitty ass job of letting everyone know.

>>693466496
well, i think it would be wrong yes, in my subjective opinion, but my subjective opinion means shit all. if there was objective morality surely this question couldn't exist because everyone would know the right and wrong thing to do at all times

>>693460779
Actually I'm a philosophy teacher. I teach philosophy in an university in Paris.

>>693466786
Objective morality provides a basis for why certain things are right or wrong, it does nothing to force anyone to do right or wrong, nor does it say we necessarily know everything that is right or wrong

We have free will, and there is such a thing as moral growth (discovering), and unfortunately sometimes moral decay

>>693466956
I feel bad for your students then

Sorry

Btw, if you're interested in hearing from a real philosopher rather than some layman like me, check out the material of William Lane Craig

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>>693457141
I'd rather die than go to heaven.

>>693467132
well for a start i don't think we have free will but thats a story for another day

so you're saying that objective reality exists but nobody knows what it is? then how do you know it exists?

if every individual has a different, presumably wrong, morality, but one of them is true, but theres no way of knowing which one, surely its easier to assume morality is subjective?

>>693467339
That's no way to talk to someone who could teach you son.

>>693467387
You're going to die either way, the only difference being when you reject Jesus, you won't be resurrected but stay dead

You can go to hell if you like, but it's a place so bad, even Hitler doesn't deserve to be there. So have fun.

people can't even play telephone with a group of 10 people, why would the bible be accurate?

>>693465605
The big bang is just the rapid expansion from a small point, it says nothing about what there was or wasn't before that.

The big crunch may be right and the universe is in a endless cycle of expansion, then contraction.

And even if it's not, and the universe had a cause, its a fallacy to attribute it to a deity when it there is no reason to think so.

I could say my jug of milk in the fridge created the universe and its just as valid.

>>693467486
We do know, but not everything

For instance, we can tell that rape is wrong, but when it comes to matters like adultery, not necessarily, it take moral growth to recognize that as objectively wrong

The point is, that murder and stealing for example, are objectively wrong, meaning that even if nobody on earth believed they are, they still would be, because they are independent of human opinion

>>693467580
Good. I've been told my entire life that I will die. I want my god-damn death, not a half-assed effort

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>>693467695
It tells you there was a beginning point, does it not? The singularity?

>>693467810
No they aren't. It depends on what your objective basis is.

For example, if every woman on earth suddenly refused to have sex, it would become moral to rape to save the future of humans.

>>693457141
Then the Jewish and the Muslim God would be real too.

>>693468042
It's not called a "beginning point" because that's not how science works.

For example, as I was saying about the big crunch, the universe may contract back into a singularity again once gravity takes hold over the current expansion. And then another big bang.

>>693468125
What you said makes no sense at all

Who said it's moral to save humanity anyway? Sure you'd like it, but that doesn't mean anything

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>>693463863
Or what I said is the only truth you will ever be told and now you must make personal choices and live with the consequences of those choices.

God is real, he just is not forcing you to believe in or like him.

You have free will..

Course with all the liars behind pulpits you also have plausible deniability.

So much like the anon above I agree simply "do not be an asshole to others" and you have a good shot at eternity.

If you do things to others that you would not want done to you? Then you are the very definition of evil.

Another anon points out that morality is easily recognized when something bad is done to each of us. Every child has said "That's not fair" because we know instinctively what right and wrong really are.

>>693467810
my model explains that too though, if morality is just a description of what you do and don't like, obviously there will be overlap, nobody wants to be murdered or robbed or raped, so they act in the way they would like others to act towards them, in order to keep society functioning

those are easy though, what makes objective morality really questionable for me are the grey areas, is it ok to lie? sometimes, depends on the circumstance, how do you decide if what you did is morally correct or not? there doesn't seem to be any kind of objective standard to judge against

>>693468420
It is a beginning point, because time as we know it started there, there is no "before" the big bang

>>693468527
>God is real,
is that a fact?

>>693468670
as we know it

>>693468555
It is NOT a description of what I or anyone likes or does not like, I never said that and it is not true!

I don't like hurting myself, but falling down the stairs and breaking my leg is not evil now is it?

Objective morality provides you a grounding for the values we hold dear, so that murder isn't just wrong because that's the society we happen to live in, but rather because God himself is the source of that value

>>693468428
Read my post again. You just proves my point.

If you base your objective on survival of humanity, what i said is true.

Or you can have your objective on lessening the suffering and maximizing happiness.

Both options, rape would become moral in my hypothetical, because there can be no amount of human happiness if all humans die out.

Read "the moral landscape" by Sam Harris

>>693468801
What does that even mean?

Are we talking physics and philosophy or English here?

I have a suspicion that your brain isn't quite working right...

>>693468670
>as we know it

>>693468993
It means "as we know it" is the key to why the big bang is not the beginning.

>>693468958
What if the way I maximize my happiness is by raping people? :)

I knew you got your information from Sam Harris, heard it all before, and I highly suggest you watch his debate with William Lane Craig about this issue (they've debated twice)

>>693468993
It means that we dont fucking know everything.

That's why there is no "proof" In science, only theories with varying amounts of evidence.

It's why no scientists say the singularity was the "beginning point" because we don't know yet and the fundamental properties of the universe during the big bang were different.

"A Universe From Nothing" - Lawrence Krauss

Read it

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>>693468555
>there doesn't seem to be any kind of objective standard to judge against


The standard is you.

God is not going to judge you by the rules of a guy in a funny hat.

He is going to examine your heart and your standards.

If you thought what you did was wrong? It was.
The bar has been placed oh so very high by Christ in stating the "Golden Rule".

It confirms all of the ten commandments and even expands upon them. In as much as what you do to others is judged by what you would want other to do to you.

>>693468744
No, it is my opinion.
Which is as valid as yours or any others.
But Christ's existence in history is a fact.
His fulfillment of Prophecy is about as good as it has gotten. (Psalm 22) As a Hebrew text that chapter/verse predates the existence of Rome (And the torture of Crucifixion) by at least 800 years.

How do we know if he exists

>>693469037
>>693469109
I've never face palmed this hard in my entire life.... Look at it this way:

Once upon a time, before the big bang, there was a-- NOTHING, THERE WAS NO TIME, PHYSICAL AND METAPHYSICAL TIME HAD THEIR BEGINNING IN THE SINGULARITY

>>693457141
Then, when I die, I will give him the finger, and tell him suck my dick.

I am firmly convinced that there is no god, and if there is, he can not possibly be an entity of good. My entire life is proof that a god can't possibly care about us.

>>693469507
Do you even know what a singularity is?

>>693469481
We can not know until after we pass from this realm.

It is why we call it faith.

>>693469218

Then based on the current condition of humanity and current circumstances, you are immoral.

I will get sick if i hear Craig speak one more time.

I've seen the debates already though, thanks anyway.

>>693469389
>Lawrence Krauss
Dude even Atheists say this guy is a tool, watch him get wrecked in multiple debate with William Lane Craig, available for your viewing pleasure at youtube dot com

"A Universe from Nothing" hahaha, good job redefining what the word "Nothing" means Krauss. You fooled a lot of simpletons with that title!

"Nothing" is a word that describes the state of non-existence anon, to treat it as something, is just insane

>>693469631
Faith?, never heard of it.

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>>693468527
So waht you're saying is he gave us free will... and that is why evil exists, right? Because if we were forced to be good there would be no free will.

Surely that means that free will is the most important thing on earth. I mean, its more important than human suffering (and you know there's plenty of that)

So free will must be the most important thing ever, and in fact the reason we were created is to make choices. Except that we can get judged on those choices and be thrown into eternal damnation for making the wrong ones. Meaning free will is a fucking joke.

>>693468892
yeah i think its just a description of what you do and don't like, you think its god

so breaking your leg is not immoral because it can't be attributed to something with agency, stairs cannot be immoral, only people can

i don't really understand your position, your argument seems to be that you really don't like it when things you consider to be immoral happen, but thats not really evidence for anything

then you have the "is it immoral because god doesn't like it, or does god not like it because its immoral?" question

really what my argument comes down to is, if two people have different moral codes, what is the objective measure of which one is right? the closest thing we seem to have to that is how much people like the outcomes

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>>693469548
If you agreed to the life you have had then it is fair.

You simply do not recall your prior existence and agreement to participate.

You are an Angel of God made flesh.
(As are we all)

The reason smme good people suffer is to remove the chance that Satan and his ilk can whine that life was not fair to them.

If you suffered so, and Christ suffered so.

What excuse can the like of Donald Trump give when they are finally confronted with their own greed and selfishness.

>>693459158
>That' not how heaven works
>That'
>'(...)

Your second grade spelling error aside. Do tell us please. How the happy, hairy, FUCK you know how "heaven" works? Did your god grant you some o' dat resurrection juice?

>>693463414
Muh burden of proof

>>693469507
Really? Could you show me your evidence and the peer reviewed journal you submitted it to?

Where is your Nobel prize for making this discovery?

I also get the feeling you dont quite understand that the big bang just describes how a small something became a big something.

Nowhere does it say "there was nothing then suddenly something"

>>693469391
so morality is subjective then? thats what i'm arguing for

>>693469555
No I don't, I'm just an idiot who believes in God durrrrrrrr I can barely use the keyboard herrrrrppp

I don't even have to know what it exactly is, all I need to know is that metaphysical time did not exist, and if you ask any cosmologist, he will tell you without a doubt that the standard big bang model predicts the beginning of the universe.

>>693469635
>I've seen the debates already though
I guess you weren't listening at all then.. not surprised really

>>693469990
My way or the highway.

>>693458470
If Thor is real, according to Norse legends, he'd be an average size, filthy swede, wearing a girdle, and carrying a really crappy sledge hammer. No thunder, no lightning, no flying, no worthy, no golden hair. Just a magic girdle, and a crappy hammer. He'd have the strength of a giant, so, anyone 7 feet or more in height. Modern day body builders would have no trouble defeating Thor. Put away your comic books, and meet the "god" Thor.

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>>693457141
>What if the Christian God is real?
>What if

>>693457141
im a cold blooded murderer

Can god make the boulder that he can't lift

>>693469934
It doesn't matter who is right, Atheists do things that are objectively good all the time, whether they know it or not, that's not the point.

The point is, when you do say that something is right or wrong, do you have any objective and unchanging basis for it? Can you ground the moral values that you hold, in an objective and unchanging source?

>>693469966
Trolling a bit hard there boy-o

>The reason smme good people suffer is to remove the chance that Satan and his ilk can whine that life was not fair to them.

>the fuck

>>693468034
Go wrestle a bear then.
I think if the Christian God were real, then supernatural circumstances should dictate that all other Gods before and after him have a perfect reason to exist as well.
I always wondered if he was real, and others were too, you could just walk over to the next heaven like some wayward spirit trying to find a place to rest.
>"Fuck this place, it's full of racist white conservatives and rednecks. I wonder what Nirvana is like."
>Greetings Siddhartha

>>693469727
The "nothing" you speak of doesn't exist in reality, it's just a concept.

Can you show me an example of "nothing"? Because i don't know what it is.

I have no reason to speak "nothing" exists or ever existed.

And please stop bringing WLC. He is a dense faggot apologist that cannot understand why the cosmological argument is flawed but won't stop using it.

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>>693469733
Willful ignorance is still one of the biggest problems that mankind seems to enjoy suffering from.

>>693469808
You seem to imply that we were created at our Birth? We existed far before that. We have all agreed to be here now. Read the story of Jacob and Esau. Why would God say he knew them both BEFORE they were in the womb?

>>693470043
The discovery was made a long time ago, your intellectual laziness shows what an idiot you are

>>693460693
That makes perfect sense actually. He wandered around doing nothing, relied on his bitch working on her back, and his homies' money to feed and clothe himself, and did nothing but talk shit about how every nigga who had 2 cents to scrape together. Taking all of that into consideration, Jesus HAD to be a nigger!

>>693457141
>What if the Christian God is real?

What if OP is a fag again?

>>693470458
>Can you show me an example of "nothing"? Because i don't know what it is.
OFCOURSE NOT, BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING TO SHOW

OH MY GOD ASDSDF)WE%(Q)E#%RT("¤=&T)WRTG

>>693470473
Source please? I have never read anything about that in any journal.

>>693470461
No I'm saying that god created the world and humans so that we could make choices out of our free will am i right?

>>693470554
So "nothing" doesn't exist? And CAN'T exist?!?

Wow thanks for proving Krauss right once again

>>693460634
>Also how can you condemn God? You don't know why he acts like he does.

Only a malevolent, malignant, evil god would allow a child to be continually, and brutally raped, even though the child begs god to make it stop. If god exists, his extinction should be the only priority of human's as a species.

>>693470323
no i can't and neither can you
even if you can can that be any given unchanging source? theres still subjectivity in choosing the right one

the other problem with this is that grounding your moral values in something rigid and unchanging means what your doing is going to be considered immoral as times change, this is why everyone hates fundamentalist christians

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>>693470053
Well some things are and others are not.

God said "It does not offend me that which goes in a mans mouth but that which comes out.

So food laws like Halal or Kosher are apparently not Mortal Sins.

But I wold imagine Rape and Murder ARE..


Although a rape victim COULD possibly forgive you your crime.

The Golden Rule is not really all that subjective.
Also when asked about forgiveness Christ said we should forgive our brother 7 times 70000 times.. IF HE REPENTS! That last part seems to be ignored an awful lot. Forgiveness is for those who seek it not for those who wrongly think they are already innocent.

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>>693457141
Spooky

>>693470481
underrated

>>693470814
The survival of humans and maximizing happiness.

Go ahead and find a flaw. That's my objective basis for morality.

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>>693470412
Nope I save the trolling for silly threads that do not have an effect on your eternal soul.

But I understand how in a place like /b/ you might assume it is so.

Plausible deniability rules.
God is fair.

>>693471137
happiness is subjective you fucking spastic

>>693470629
It's implied by the model, are you blind?

If you really are of the academic type who reads these sort of papers that you ask for, which I doubt, then go ahead and read this: http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0110012v2.pdf

>>693457141
well this place is fucking hell, so why not?

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That's a pretty badass looking stained glass of Virgin Mary and Jesus.

Sauce please brother. Deus Vult.

>Question; Answer:

Oh, umm.....depends. Which of the 40,000 interpretations be true? He's read my heart and he knows that I'm not a complete dick. I hope.

>>693463777
Fucking checked.

>>693469966
So I agreed to have a pediatric medical file 6 inches thick at the hands of my mother, and foster parents? I agreed lose my first child in a fucking house fire? I agreed that my only son would be taken from me because, according to the family court judge, I "worked too many hours to provide the care a child needs" ? I agreed to all of this? As far as I know, I am not a masochist, if there is a god, and this is his "plan" for me, then he can go get fucked right now. I want nothing to do with him.

>>693471013
yeah my argument is that the golden rule is pretty universal because everyone likes that idea, not because some outside source decided it was good

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>>693457141
then the vast majority of christians are going to hell

>>693471013
Well, rape is moral in the bible if you pay her dad a few shekels after.

So is slavery. It talks about guidelines on beating your slaves etc.

And dont say "THAT'S A DIFFERENT KIND OF SLAVERY"

No. It's owning another human being. Don't try to downplay or rationalize it.

African Chieftains sold poor people from their villages to Erupeans and Americans. The first person to own a slave in the American Colonies was a black man. A former slave who bought his freedom and then bought his own, WHITE, slaves.

That doesn't make it right.

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>>693470762
No, God created Humans and free will to teach us an important lesson.

The basic lesson is simply to be born, to live, and to die, thus gaining empathy for all living things. To understand suffering of all that lives and breathes and thus to agree to follow Gods plan once again and stop warring among ourselves.

>>693471353
That paper actually sides with my argument.

Have you read your own link?

>>693470784
....... I'm sorry, but are you somehow mentally challenged?

Again, the word "Nothing" describes the state of non existence.

So for example, if we say "Suzy has nothing", we don't mean "Suzy has something, and it's nothing", no we mean "Suzy does not have anything, she has nothing"

Seriously you're about to give me brain damage

Krauss simply redefined the word to mean "Quantum Vacuum" to trick simpletons like you

>>693470814
The point is that without God, any "moral" decisions we make cannot be grounded objectively. But if God exists, then regardless of human opinion, some things are truly and objectively wrong. Whether we know that or not doesn't matter.

>>693471619
Oh fuck I hope the Gnostics aren't right either. Sophia was pretty fucking dumb to let this whole BS even happen.

>>693471488
Yes before you were ever born YOU IN SPIRIT agreed to all of that.

I am sorry it sucks.

But you will one day reach the end of it all and God will welcome you back home and comfort you.

>>693471890
It doesn't, William Lane Craig even received an e-mail from Vilenkin that said he accurately represented his argument when he said that it predicted a beginning of the universe.

>>693471907
Give me one example or evidence of "nothing"

You are describing an imaginary concept.

I'm talking about IN REALITY we have no reason to think there was ever a "nothing"

>>693471984
Again, if he exists, he better not even try. The second he gets close, I'll have my hands around his throat, and make all of these arguments moot.

>What if the Christian God is real?

Why are you asking?

>>693472050
AS WE KNOW IT.

Not a beginning to a "something"

Your paper even begins by saying the fundamental laws of the universe seemed to be different during the big bang.

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>>693471907
yeah thats the difference between our positions, but yours seems to require god to exist to be true, your argument was that objective morality exists therefore god exists, but its not exactly self evident that objective morality exists

>>693464581
Typical Biblefag reasoning.

Ever read the Lost Books of Enki? Your bible was altered by the Catholic church. Good ol' "King James Version". :^)

>>693470043
>I also get the feeling you dont quite understand that the big bang just describes how a small something became a big something.

Not the guy you're replying to, but his point is that there technically was no time before the universe. This makes our ordinary notions of cause and effect pretty much useless in connection with the universe's origin. Because there was no time before the universe, and because cause precedes effect, it means the universe had no/didn't need a cause as we usually understand it. That doesn't mean the universe is infinitely old; just that time is a feature of the universe itself.

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>>693471650
You mistake the teachings of men in the Bible for the teachings of Christ or God.

See Matthew 19..


Mankind likes laws that permit "divorce" it was never a part of Gods plan.

I am not one of those who claim the English Bible is Gods perfect words.

It is not.

The letters at the beginning of any reprint of the 1611 KJV of the Bible should make that very clear.

The translators admit that often what they wrote was a best guess.

Sadly those who could lead us to the Truth have allowed themselves to be corrupted nearly since the beginning.

At this time all one can do is struggle with ones own heart and try not to be part of the problem.

Too many folks standing behind pulpits are liars more interested in profit then in the teachings of Prophets.

>>693472173
>Again, if he exists, he better not even try. The second he gets close, I'll have my hands around his throat, and make all of these arguments moot.

Moot left, so you'd be making them gookmoot or goot.

I know for a fact He is real..He works in my life in obvious ways. I ask and He delivers. You're not going to like eternity if you don't know Him. I'm not worried. If you hate Him because you like to sin more than you like Him then you should worry. Sin is as real as God and you need to know better than to sin. But if you keep on you're going to be in a black hot uncomfortable hell of a place with no God in it. And it seems most are choosing to go there.

>>693457141
Then miraculously the 4900 other religions are about to get really butt-hurt for the reveal of a judeo-christian god

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>>693460736
The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are literally eyewitness accounts of the people that were with Jesus. Why would they perpetuate a lie? For what gain? They were killed for these beliefs. Why did for a lie?

>>693471984
>Yes before you were ever born YOU IN SPIRIT agreed to all of that.

That's a hypothesis with literally no evidence to support it. Why should any of us believe you?

>>693472472
The burden of proof is on the person making or implying X is true.

Prove your god is real or piss off, because otherwise you are repeating drivel like any other desert superstitionist.

Proof, testable proof, nothing else or different.

>>693472467
Yes I understand. That guy is actually a theist though, just regurgitating William Lane Craig arguments.

>>693472379
The fundamental laws of the universe HAD to be different during the big bang. You're talking about a singularity, of infinite mass, and density, creating a gravitational field capable of warping time, exploding outward. The actual physics involved would have been staggering beyond the capability of the human mind to comprehend.

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>>693472173
I don't blame you at this very moment.

I hate that we live on a planet where life must eat other life to survive.

The very design seems to my little flesh mind to be very flawed.

I agree that should I arrive i Gods kingdom and find innocent Hindu children are condemned for not being "catholic" enough that the War against God and Lucifer will continue and I will join you in that war,

>>693472472
How do you know which parts are gods teachings and which are man's just attributed to God ?

Oh, the ones you agree with are Gods. I see.

How convienent.

>>693472727

Oh I see. I've read Craig. Silly stuff.

>>693472565
>I know for a fact He is real.

Prove it. Belief is not knowledge. You cannot know a thing to be fact if it cannot be proven independent of your belief. You can believe but faith is not knowledge. (Hint, that's why the words have different definitions.)

Reality is testable. If you assert X is so, then that assertion should be testable otherwise it's just "feels".

>>693472398
Well, to me it is evident, and I would argue that it is to most people as well, even if they deny it with their words, but their actions from the moment they wake up show that they do not in fact live as if morality were subjective, but some things they hold as objectively wrong (rape, stealing, murder, etc..) and others as objectively good (love, kindness, etc...)

It's something that you'll have to see for yourself though, I can't provide any arguments to prove to you that they're real other than "look at your own heart".

If someone walked into your house, murdered your family, then was let go by the judge in court, regardless of the laws of society, you would probably think it was objectively wrong.

>>693472656
>That's a hypothesis with literally no evidence to support it. Why should any of us believe you?

And if it were true, and people actually believed it, could you imagine what the suicide rate would become?

>>693472773
Which is why I'm arguing that there is no reason to think there was a "nothing" preceeding that.

>>693472773
>The actual physics involved would have been staggering beyond the capability of the human mind to comprehend.

That is what is called an asserted conclusion.

>>693469808
It's like saying here anon. Look at all this candy, you can have any of it you want! Free will! But if you pick a candy that isn't green I'm guna pit your face to a hot fucking stove. Choice is yours!

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>>693472656
Because it is supported by the word.

As I pointed out about Jacob and Esau..

Or if you like read Revelation 19:10..

In it an Angel tells John not to bow to him and worship because John is his brother and the Angel does not deserve to be worshiped by John as he is his equal.