Historical European Martial Arts Thread
Please keep it kind and on topic. Also no SCA/Reenactment/HMB please.
Essential Information:
http://www.communitywalk.com/user/view/81443
https://www.zeemaps.com/map?group=619536
http://hemaalliance.com/?page_id=686
http://wiktenauer.com/wiki/Main_Page
http://www.hroarr.com/
http://www.middleages.hu/english/martialarts/treatise_database.php
Old Thread: >>1241154
Is longsword all about binding/winding or is there parry&riposte too?
My friend wants to learn sword and buckler, do you recommend Bolognese or I.33?
He's also interested in viking sword and shield which I know isn't really HEMA, but would that mean that I.33 is better for him?
>>1317103
There is parry & riposte. Most of Fiore longsword is.
>>1317103
Both, and more, German MEisterhau techniques are parry/riposte in one move for example. There are myriads of techniques, and what fits depends on the mensur you have and what you see fit.
>>1317110
I.33 is high medieval and needs a lot of discipline in the footwork, it is like a dance, if you can keep you posture you are good, but if you ever lose it you are done.
I'm not that versed on Bolo, so I cannot comment here.
Noboy knows shit about Vikings as they left no manuals, but the guy that is closed to non LARP Viking stuff (Roland) is from I.33 background
>>1317110
>would that mean that I.33 is better for him?
Why would that be ? I:33 is like 500 years after the main viking incurions, plus the irony of looking at priests fighting, to re-enact viking fighting would be too much to bear.
I'm full frutti di mare at the moment so obviously I'm going to say Bolognese but then...
>>1317110
Both I.33 and Bolognese have some good points. I.33 gives you a great "feeling" of the opponent sword. Bolognese is a system about the one handed sword, when you learn it you can easily learn how to use it with a buckler, or a dagger, or a cloak, or many other things, on the same fundamentals.
>>1317136
Since the I.33 arming sword doesn't have a lot of hand protection compared to the bolognese sidesword and relies on the buckler to protect the hand. And I guess Roland is doing I.33 and seems to be the go to guy for viking sword and board.
>>1317146
Not that Roland's Viking shield stuff is a lot like I.33 anyway.
A lot of leading with the shield and trying to use it to mess with the opponent's shield from what i've seen.
>>1317110
>Bolognese or I.33?
Liegnitzer is great for getting started imho as it's very essential (only 6 plays) and gives you both binden/winden and parry/riposte actions.
also, I'm no girl kek
Anybody studying Messer here?
Would you recommend Forgeng's "Art of Swordamnship by Hans Leckuchner" or is it just stupid expansive with no real reason, being no better than the PDF by Hammaborg availlable free online?
Are there any treatises on warhammers or maces? Or are these weapons too easy to use that there is no necessity for them?
>>1317515
Warhammer treatise!
>>1317515
For the pollaxe like ones, you have some pollaxe material.
Otherwise I don't think there's anything, with the why being open to speculation.
>>1317515
It may be a case of "strike like with a sword" since it doesn't seem they felt much need to write about them.
There are some clubs in Talhoffer in contexts where they would specifically be used, and i think there's a depiction of knights in full plate using warhammers and shields somewhere i can't remember.
>>1317516
Why are you posting that Warcraft ripoff?
I kid, I kid.
>>1317515
>warhammers or maces
one handed weapons of this type where only used by cavalry to whack down fleeing footsolders, no real chalenge there.
Only two handed weapons like the Lucerne Hammer where used for combat on foot, those weapons are covered in several manuals, Jeux de la hache, Meyers works on pole arms, Mair and others.
Have there been any recording of mounting banners on spears? If they needed to fight, did they fight with them on it?
>>1317575
Thanks man.
>>1317592
You mean like a battle standard or an oriflamme ?
It was actually pretty common, especially for horsemen. The only proper rules I know about them is about the templar standard, it was an immense honor to be the wielder of the lance that had the banner and it was also a very high crime to fight with it. I think it's the same for the oriflamme.
Basically, it was a commanding banner, so you were suppose to guide and hold fast while your buddies protected you, it wasn't to fight, if you needed to fight, you had to use a sword, fighting with the banner pole or spear at the point was regarded as an offense typically.
Anyone know where a Canadian could get his hands on a Regenyei Sabre? His site says the orders are closed, are they sold anywhere else?
>>1317731
Wait two weeks and they should be available again. Alternatively, write an email. Yurop here, so I wouldn't know if any NA hema shop has them in stock.
>>1317681
Just normal battle standards I guess. I was reading about montante users guarding standard bearers.
So when the standard bearer is attacked, he sticks it in the ground and draws an arming sword? Fight with his sword in one hand while hold the banner?
Why even mount it on a weapon when you're not supposed to fight with it? Logistics?
>>1317752
If you're going to fight with it, then it's a small pennant.
A proper battle standard isn't somethign you fight with. You do what you can with your other hand, which probably isn't much. Those banner guards are there out of necessity. Mounting such a thing on a weapon might be symbolic more than anything.
>>1317752
why mount it on a stick when you have hundreds of perfectly good spears?
>>1317592
Not for spears, but it was common for lances in certain cultures.
>>1317752
If standard bearers were assigned montante men to protect them, that should be pretty telling really, especially since the montante really is a bodyguard weapon. As said, massive battle standard are just unwieldy, if there's a point at one end, you won't be able to practically use it to fight anyway, so better draw your sword and heh, use the shaft as a parrying device maybe ? Besides you weren't suppose to fight, it wasn't expected of you in the first place. There was one treatise about fighting with the sword while your pike is stuck in the ground (early 16th, Pistofilo B. iirc), maybe something to think about if you wanted to replicate the experience.
If it's a cavalry banner, it will be lighter, but as said, for the templar at least, fighting with the banner is punishable by stuff like expulsion from the order so... Same thing with the oriflamme, it had different meaning according to the way it was brandished, so fighting with it would be super-confusing for other people, that's why it was forbidden to fight with it.
Why was it mounted on lances and long spears, I guess logistics applies but also symbol wise, it's better ?
About this, the japanese too had flag-bearers and they were classified apart for spearmen, missile units, foot samurai and so on, they were really counted as a specific type of soldier and supposedly, they weren't there to fight as well, if you fight, you aren't doing your flag-related job and that's no good, that's why they too had bodyguards and servants (and also a short sword because you never know).
>>1317492
Lignitzer isn't that easy for a beginner.
>>1317827
At the battle of Kappel 1531, the city of Zurich was beaten and the reformator Zwingli was killed.
Much more importantly, the bearer of the big banner of Zurich, Johann Schwyzer was killed in the retreat and the banner was in danger of getting lost to the filthy catholics. Adam Näf, Ulrich Denzler and Hans Kambli stepped in went berserk in the ensuing melee. They managed to cut the banner free and bring it back to the Zurich lines.
Näf and Denzler, which where only subjects of Zurich, got rewarded with the citizenship of Zurich for themselfes and all their heirs, a personal coat of arms and big estates (small hamlets, big houses and everything that came along with it) Kambli which was already a citizen was made Vogt of Eglisau, so he did receive his own town, a castle plus a dozen villages. This might put into proportion how important a banner was at the time.
Näf's sword (longsword, 141cm, semi complex hilt) is still a priced piece and can be seen at the Landesmuseum Zurich, along with the banner
>protip, if anyone uses this pic with "hacking at pike formations" tell them to go fuck themselves, they story of what happened that day and what kind of combat it was is written down in detail in the chronicles of Zurich
>>1317985
The son of a very famous duellist, François-Henri de Montmorency-Bouteville was a reknowned general of Louis XIV of France. He was so successful he was nicknamed "Tapissier de Nôtre-Dame" (the captured flags were displayed at Nôtre-Dame in Paris at that time).
And another story, pic is the parliament of the Dutch Republic in the 17th century in the Ridderzaal, it triggered the spaniards apparently...
>>1317969
One could just stick to some interpretation already availlable on the internet, there's plenty of them o yt.
Interpreting the treatise yourself is somewhat more advanced shit, no matter if it's Liegnitzer, Liutger or spaghetti school of fencing
>>1318434
You can mimic interpretations but it doesn't mean you'll understand what you're doing. There's a reason why Liutger wrote the same things over and other again with little variations. This is how he teached concepts. Lignitzer wrote some good plays for who already knows the concepts. It's too short to actually get them from the plays.
But if anon's friend already knows something about german tradition then Lignitzer is ok.
>>1318540
*Over and over
>>1318540
Agreed, yet it's still useful. I was assuming anon's friend had no instructor availlable, so yeah imho mimic is fine to get into the flow even if he is a beginner and doesn't totally understand what he is doing and why "because practice is better than art, your practice may very well be useful without art, but your art is useless without practice" (hs3227a) after all
>>1317746
Where did you get this 2 weeks from?
>>1317515
Razmafzar has stuff for maces and axes but that's not really HEMA.
>>1320709
Is there anything like wiktenauer for Razmafzar?
Are there translated treatises?
>>1317510
>Anybody studying Messer here?
Would you recommend Forgeng's "Art of Swordamnship by Hans Leckuchner" or is it just stupid expansive with no real reason, being no better than the PDF by Hammaborg availlable free online?
Bump.
C'mon guys, there MUST be some messerfag here
>>1322269
A friend recommended a book, that I don't recall.
I'll post it when I get a reply from him.
IIRC it's published after 2015 DEC.
>>1322269
Messerfag here, sorry, I speak German and use Lecküchners original.
If you need something easier to start with, try Paulus Kal, Peter Falkner or Andre Pauernfeyndt.
>>1322269
I'm gonna start messer in months, but I'm looking too for original sources and modern studies, I can't help but I feel you.
>>1317085
>fight like a girl
Badly?
Seriously, if there's anything HEMA's taught me it's that there's no fucking contest when men and women fight.
>>1317746
>Wait two weeks and they should be available again
Why do you say this? What do you know?
>>1322452
What is this information worth ($$$) to you?
Just found out I get gypped if I order some of the bigger brands from their official website, with price differences of near 200 USD for the same sword.
Any tips for poorfag HEMAist on getting better deals for equipment?
>>1322452
I don't know about him, but I can ask him directly
>>1322651
Would you like to elaborate on this? Which brands? Where are you saying we ought to buy from, then?
Wrestlefag here, how does this shit work without people killing each other?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbTWDeqQf0
I was gonna say that the weapons have been blunted at the ends but there are some huge swords and axes that look pretty fucking real
>>1321967
Not that I know of other than the book he has for sale on his site and the youtube videos.
His site and video channel still seem like a wip so I guess we'll have to wait for the first gen. of fighters to work through the material or buy his book.
>>1323712
The weapons are blunted and the armor provides pretty good protection.
>>1322655
Would be grand
>>1322524
Just curious, want a saber
>>1323712
>blunts
>no stabbing
>armor padded to the point beyond retardation
Imagine people in huge hogdog costumes. They push each other until they fall on the ground. The last team standing wins. This is what those "medieval" tournaments about.
>>1323712
Just keep in mind this is not HEMA.
>>1323712
bait
I got into a car crash on my way to HEMA today.
Kill me.
>>1324073
At least they take the fencing part seriously. I mean grabbing to the fence and holding it.
>>1324794
I hope you're ok anon
>>1325073
Kek
>>1325242
Thank you, I appreciate it
It was my fault and should have been more careful.
>>1324794
This is the first thing that came to my mind.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xqyWgJCFak
I hope this cheers you up.
>>1322749
Polish Saber from Cold Steel
430 usd on official 250 usd at knife center.
Was recommended since they worked with some known polish saber HEMA people.
>>1325414
Hahahaha what the fuck.
Thank you for that
>>1325451
I think that tends to happen with "big" companies, though sometimes to a much lesser degree with smaller makers.
The big companies are not very interested in small sales, so singles have a hefty price while bulk purchases have a hefty discount, so resellers can sell them for a lot less.
With the smaller makers it's just the bulk discount usually, but if the discount is enough the reseller can still end up cheaper.
>>1325451
CS is... special.
If that Polish training sabre is decent, then it's in spite of the maker, not thanks to it. Their buckler is ok, but their swords...
As for the prices, CS overprice their stuff to a ridiculous degree. Most retailers sell far below MSRP, meaning the dealer discount is also massive. Ie it's all a ploy to allow the retailers to boast about "Great Deal! 40% off of MSRP!" while selling at what should be the MSRP if people had any decency.
>>1325505
>>1325515
But i heard their knives were actually somewhat decent, unlike the swords...
Can someone supply me a PDF of the Art of Combat?
>>1325755
http://www.mediafire.com/download/byl72m2jmwtla5v/Meyer.pdf
>>1325505
I normally avoid CS like the plague, outside of their plastic buckler and plastic rondels.
However, I've seen good reviews of this saber from other HEMAist and heard from a friend that they worked specifically with Polish Saber HEMAist to make this blade.
>>1326012
But that IS the official site.
what's wrong with thrand?
>>1326046
His baseball cap?
>>1326039
Apologies, got it mixed up, it's late and my brain is not functioning well.
I live outside Europe and the US so shipping is about the same for me.
I could have accidentally gotten stuff from not histfenc at a higher price if I wasn't careful.
Anyone got tips on better deals?
Hi swordfriends, kendo/kenjutsufag here. I'm interested in starting HEMA and was wondering what are the warning signs of HEMA mcdojos. Is there a list of approved schools anywhere or something?
>>1326276
>what are the warning signs of HEMA mcdojos
if the name starts with an A and ends with RMA that's a red flag
>>1326276
Really if you're doing kendo you should be able to see the bullshit.
But lets see...
Absolute lack of athleticism or will to improve it. Some people (like me) didn't do shit before HEMA, so not everyone will be fit, but if they spend training being lazy and talking they're unlikely to be good for much (perhaps translating?).
Lack of sparring. Kenjutsu can somewhat get away with this (and i think some schools do it anyway) because it comes from a living tradition. HEMA needs to be put to the test.
Insularity. If they don't want you to see what other people do you should be suspicious. And even if they're good not fighting people outside the group sounds awful.
>>1326280
And here we have an example of a group (well, group of groups) i'm told actually has some skilled people but is so insular we may never know for sure.
Oh also, cults of personality since we're talking about ARMA.
>>1326276
Ask what sources do they study from. If they can name some masters that's usually ok. If they stay general like "general liechtenauer tradition" there's something to worry about. If they just go for "whatever works" that's a no-no. If they names too many masters even from different traditions, they're either a big club with a lot of study groups or they're pretending but actually know little.
>>1326365
>"general liechtenauer tradition"
Thats pretty much what we teach to newbies, first because I wouldn't know who really wrote the Pseudo von Danzig, second because one of our teachers is a von Ringeck expert and third because we teach a fair dose of basic Ringen (Specially how to do it safe) from the "we happen to be in the same books and era like Liechtenauer" guys in our basic training.
At least we do 15 minutes interval warm-ups and advanced study is specific on certain traditions for several semesters.
Talhoffer and LARP dress up ring my alarm bells
>mfw doing HEMA after 5 years of Muay Thai
You guys need to stop being fatasses, it's embarassing. Train your body so you don't lose just because the other guy is in shape.
>>1326412
You're in the USA aren't you?
>>1326415
manchester
>>1326422
Weird, i've seen some fatties in Europe but they've always been a minority in their clubs.
>>1326403
Starting from general concepts is fair, and since you actually study from a treatise everything is fine. You're from a club which knows its sources and as I said that's a good point to recognize a good club.
I was talking about clubs which don't actually study from a source and try to cover their ignorance being vague on what they do, but I didn't explain myself well. My bad.
>>1326433
Especially the fatties that I know a are usually on the good to great tier. We have one that definitely packs some lard, but reliably kicks the shit out of the six packs with his beautiful Meyer technique.
>>1326433
Fatasses is a little much but the majority just lacks athleticism, not doing anything after leaving training.
I'm just saying if you want to be the best your body needs to be in their best shape too.
>>1326462
Well not everybody wants to be the best. And some are just too old to ever be the best even if they went all out.
>>1324073
The 1v1 stuff is more interesting (group battles are hella fun to watch to). The padding they used this year that I saw was not much more than what I've seen anywhere else.
As for the no-stabbing: Yes. They do have certain caveats for safety's sake. Just like HEMA does. Just like other avenues of looking at medieval combat have to sacrifice some realism.
Pushing is not quite what they do. Hit, kick, punch (usually w/shield) and wrestle is the name of the game. Group tactics also very important.
>>1323712
Was in Prauge @ BOTN2016 just a few weeks ago. Besides a few broken noses, a dislocated knee, some dude got a big cut over the crown of the head, there were also some sprained limbs & superficial cuts to wrists & arms. A LOT of horrible bruises.
Was surprisingly few injuries, desu.
Camaraderie was very impressive. Seemed everyone was there to have fun & enjoy doing what they do.
>>1326412
>ignores the fact that in manuals most dudes have a potbelly
top kek m8
sorry-not-sorry we couldn't fit HIIT in to our curricula with an age-range of 14-65 per hour long class after everyone has finished working all day or school :^)
better tell them they can't jpoin unless they can 1/2/3/4 minimum
>>1327091
>The 1v1 stuff is more interesting
U serious? It's just two guys hitting each other as fast as they can to score more points. No technique. It's hard to see even a proper parry and riposte.
>>1327520
well, they have armour on, and not allowed to use proper techniques that would overcome armor. So what would you expect?
>>1327828
BotN/HMB is some sort of mixed era competitive tournament reenactment, so it's not seen as HEMA.
And neither is reenactment combat which is very heavy in safety rules.
>>1327828
The first word in HEMA is historical, so it needs to be based on history. Usually that means what you do has to be based on written treatises or other historical sources.
>>1327832
it's not reenactment. it's armoured wrestling and the weapon is there as an excuse
>>1327838
It does follow somewhat historical tournament rules though.
>>1327840
and larping has sword like objects. Your point?
>>1327841
That if they bothered forcing everyone to wear armor from the same period it could be a pretty good reconstruction of a tournament.
>>1327844
I forgot, minus their weapons, which seem to get shittier by the year.
Though i don't think i've ever seen any surviving examples of tournament swords and such.
>>1327844
armors isn't authentic either
rules have similarities but a lot of other stuff for safety and for other reasons.
So much added shit that it's far from authentic
>>1327845
It seems things like wooden clubs and whalebone "swords" say quite a bit of use, and time ain't kind to organics.
Earlier tournaments wouldn't have had any special gear at all, instead using normal wargear. This also lead to a rather war-like injury rate.
>>1327877
I remember some rules that said something about swords being 1 finger thick... they'd make a lot more sense if they were made of wood.
>>1317085
>Also no SCA/Reenactment/HMB please
>gentle reminder
>>1327520
>U serious? It's just two guys hitting each other as fast as they can to score more points. No technique. It's hard to see even a proper parry and riposte.
A few of the fights were like that. Some had a bit of that, but most had very little or nothing of it.
>>1327833
Like the protective gear you use :^)
Any sort of recreation will have inaccuracies, tho HEMA is closer than most. The BotN\HMB try to stick to a certain timespan on equipment but there are practical limits to it. Vast majority have similar armour.
>>1327848
The thing they've added to the armor is a bit more padding (not much) and extra face protection (usually concealed by maille aventail).
HEMA don't fight unprotected either, iirc.
>>1327845
Yeah there is very little effort put into the weapons desu. They break so bloody easily anyways so no point in making them too fancy.
It'd be like making nice, embroidered single-use babywipes.
>>1328103
I'm just kind of annoyed at how they found that one kind of particularly club like falchion and it became THE BotN sword. With the addition of the most atrocious balance possible so it will work better as a club.
>>1323712
dat friendly fire tho
>>1328102
yeah but hema doesn't say they are authentic, they just try to recreate and figure out how the swordfighting worked.
For the record HMB and other groups aren't saying they are authentic either, at least most of the time doesn't say that. So others shouldn't start saying it either
>>1328115
True. Im glad to see a bit more variation returning. Axes & maces etc.
Why is there a rope between the fighters in the 1vs1 with polearms in the botn?
Munitions grades feders back in stock when Hungarian Etsy smith?
>>1330051
he sent out a batch a few days ago that he finished (after he finally finished with the museum project) and working of the rest that was already ordered.
When the reviews and comments from those get back then others can order again now with more info so they will have a better understanding of what they will buy.
tl;dr: one or two weeks probably, depends on how fast others write back about their experiences
Anyone got some of them HEMA or WMA related pepes?
>>1330615
>2016
>asking for pepe pics
shiggity-diggity
We need way more hema related memes, tho
>>1330662
What can I say, I'm a shameless HEMA normie with an interest in may-mays.
>>1330697
We already got one completely retarded meme that skal forces in every second video, let alone top comments are always meme comments rather than something on subject. Fuck this shit.
>>1331622
I hate that shit now.
Also, anyone have a pattern to make a leather bell guard for a singlestick? I've got a few singlesticks with pegs, but not guards on them.
>>1317103
I find that lots of people seem to think that a bind means the swords are in constant or prolonged contact and quite often they'll look to achieve that state. Of course anyone should know that the best cut is a master cut that lands unimpeded (i.e. without any kind of bind at all) and the fact that a lot of the material deals with what you should do from a bind, doesn't mean that you should be looking to fight from the bind.
My philosophy is that a bind is not a phase or situation, it's the momentary instance at any point where the blades meet and you should be able to react from that immediately. Fühlen doesn't mean waiting in the bind to work out what they're going to do, it needs to be instantaneous and so does the response.
I can't count the number of times I've met someone in a bind for them to try and stay there waiting for me to put pressure on the blade or somehow wind in. I just pull off, drop the tip and cut straight to their exposed wrists. This happens so often that it's become a habit.
im going to paint my HEMA saber fencing mask
which one of these flags should i put on the helmet?
>>1334069
The Poland one.
>>1334069
top right or bottom let?
>>1334069
The top right looks like the Somalian flag.
Can't really go wrong with the Texan flag, though.
>>1334069
>does HEMA
>wants to put flag that was not even existing at the time on mask
>>1335091
>using a 1800s discipline
>not having the flag of your homeland circa 1800s
>>1334069
Any of the ones that don't have the stars and bars on it jesus fuck. If you brought that to a HEMA tourney, people would kick you in the dick, and you'd deserve it for being an autist.
>>1323712
Fuck this shit Im moving to poland the time has come.
>>1337124
Use the top right, at worst you look like Captian America. Do a circle of thirteen if you're really that into national pride, just for god's sake, no Dixie flag.
Anybody got a Peter von Danzig longsword gloss translated into English availlable for free?
Can't belive the only one is that found in Tobler's book
>>1337373
Dierk Hagedorns transcription (and translation into modern German) of the Codex 44 A 8 is likely the best available, unfortunately I have not seen it translated to English (yet). Keith Farrell also did a great job on that manuscript, but afaik he only did translate Lignitzers S&B part.
Dead hobby.
Dead thread.
>>1343576
Oh baby, you need to hook that finger deeper in.
>>1343576
Yo what sword is that?
>>1343630
That's what I found https://sbg-sword-forum.forums.net/thread/17005/german-16th-cent-thrust-swords
>>1343648
that be swords.cz then.
Shit, I could spend a fortune on silly blades, but so far I have been able to restrain myself.
>>1330615
Only this fairly shit one.
How do you guys feel about HEMA shit having a competitive scene? Good? Bad? I know many people are wary of "sportification".
>>1344645
Don't care as long as it doesn't take over like in modern fencing.
I think pool+direct elimination is a shit system designed more for the spectators than anything else though.
>>1344675
Fair enough.
I feel like organized competition is a good way to get more people into it, once the basics are well established within the community.
>>1344675
I agree as well. HEMA never has and never will be a spectator sport, so we should all stop trying to pretend it can be. I have been experimenting and designing a tournament ruleset to address this specifically.
>>1344645
I think competition is good. It puts unique pressure on the fencers to get better, and we have in place existing rules to prevent us from gamifying the arts. We also have a mindset that will stop it. If we keep that mindset and keep rules in place to prevent FLECHE SCREAM FLECHE SCREAM FLECHE SCREAM, we should be good.
Competition has directly contributed to the higher quality of HEMA fencers in the last decade.
>>1345375
I disagree with you, I think HEMA as a sport looks great to the layman. When I show it to my normalfag friends, they can usually follow it nicely. Commentary on streams and tournament videos also makes this much better. Some of the big tournaments have begun adding graphics to make it easier to follow.
That said, I think we always need to be aware of sportification. It happened to Boxing, MMA, and Fencing. And every other combat sport or martial art. We should make this as difficult as possible to sporterize, and one of the ways to do this, is to not have a unified, singular ruleset. A fencer who goes to many tournaments and deals with many rules will be forced to rely on personal skill, instead of skill with the game, to be a good fencer.
>>1345880
>>1345375
>>1344686
I wonder then if HEMA stops then being a reflection of historical martial arts and becomes a new form of sport fencing.
For instance in surviving Japanese sword arts whatever other value such practice might have, the focus is developing skills that will never be brought to their (original) conclusion.
How far do you get from how things were originally done for it to stop being historical?
Where can I find manuals that are clear and readable? (AKA decent font and in English)
Either that or a good source of videos work.
I want to learn S&B, Sabre, any one-handed weapons in general and Longsword.
>>1337124
>>1336678
>>1335091
>>1334369
>>1334113
Went with the Bonnie Blue, seemed like the right call. I'll be doing some touching up on the star definition soon. I don't think it's any problem as I'm learning backsword/saber systems and is therefore time proud appropriate, and it's Texas. Everyone can be obnoxious about being Texan here.
>>1345880
>>1345909
I think this is all kind of beside the point. What will determine whether HEMA gets "sportified" or not as a result of tournaments is the absence or presence of money. If the competitions ever garner enough attention that sponsors and such will see business opportunities in it, that is when the change will occur. Once those people swoop in the logic will be "whatever makes the sport more interesting" and if the pursuit of that involves losing some authenticity they won't care.
If you want to avoid getting sportified, the best advice is don't let anything get too big.
>>1345880
>I think HEMA as a sport looks great to the layman.
I don't know what laymen you know, but I don't think I've ever had an enthusiastic or excited response to a HEMA video I've shown to guys who aren't in it. In my experience it's too fast and too technical for the vast majority of people to enjoy.
Or it worst, they associate it with LARP and dismiss it entirely.
>>1346063
You hang out with the wrong people. I share the same experience as the other anon does, people think it looks pretty cool and is interesting, for a niche "sport" that is.
Also, tournaments and competitions have a healthy effect. The same way studying and researching keeps away the sportification, competitions keep away the lazy lardasses that only want to talk and never want to train hard and learn proper fencing,
If you want a healthy mix, all parts, studying, training and competitive testing are needed.
>>1346063
>Or it worst, they associate it with LARP and dismiss it entirely.
Some people say the same about sport fencing. And about every sport which doesn't involve a ball to play with.
What are people's thoughts on HEMA apparel like pic related?
A way to throw a joke at other HEMA guys and maybe spark some interest in the craft, or just plain cringy?
Same question about patches. A vocal contingent of people prefer to have a clean appearance and don't want to be compared to SCA/LARP/etc. while others want to show their individuality.
If painting masks is neckbeard status, what is putting patches on your fencing jacket?
>>1346183
HEMA hive mind is still debating on painting masks and how neckbeard it is, so I guess same goes with patches.
people should spend more time in training, and less telling other people what they shoud to with their own fucking gear imho
>>1346179
club and past tournament tshirts look much more HEMA than any apparel shouting "yo guys imma hemafag"
Fencers back then were so coloured, now they have to be all black. What happened?
>>1346183
I've got a simple club patch on my mask and I'm gonna put another one on my jacket, but that's all.
>>1345957
sorry but it doesn't look centered to me
>>1346232
It seems that a lot of people think that having colorful or very recognizable gear makes you a neckbeard/tryhard. I think everyone can do whatever they want with their stuff as long as they're well protected, and they keep it somewhat tasteful
>>1346232
Back then fencers were secure enough in their seriousness that they could lay on the flamboyancy just to show off; nowadays historical fencing has to struggle to be taken seriously.
Also: Mass produced fencing jackets.
Also: Changing tastes.
>>1346267
>sorry but it doesn't look centered to me
Bit off to the right side of the face, isn't it?
>>1346232
Much more easy to clean, plus most heave gear from sports fencing (masters jackets etc.) always come in black.
>also, highly protestantic city I live in, everybody's clothes where black&white only for centuries, dark blue or brown is ok, bright colors are for whores only
>>1346320
>everybody's clothes where black&white only for centuries, dark blue or brown is ok, bright colors are for whores only
Absolutely gothic.
>>1346232
There's starting to be a lot of colorful stuff in offer. and Neyman at least will do whatever the fuck you ask for pretty much.
>>1345909
>I wonder then if HEMA stops then being a reflection of historical martial arts and becomes a new form of sport fencing.
when people will start to train for the tournament rules instead on how it was.
Like in HMB when stabbing isn't allowed because it's dangerous and people no longer train for it then it's stops being historical, it's just a sport
>>1346267
>and they keep it somewhat tasteful
tasteful by what standards? For example, does a landsknecht gear with a medium sized codpiece counts as tasteful?
>>1346346
with "tasteful" I meant no patches or stuff that could get you in trouble, like I dunno a swastika or stuff that usually sparks controversy, or exceptionally dumb shit like memes. I think someone in landsknecht gear would be quite the sight in a tournament; I wouldn't mind more variation in gear appearance, as long as it doesnt restrain movements and offers enough protection
>>1344675
>I think pool+direct elimination is a shit system designed more for the spectators than anything else though.
What would be a better system?
>>1346383
I'd rather just do everyone fights everyone if time permits. Then rank by points or whatever if you want to.
>>1346342
Stabbing was outlawed in historic manuals, German longsword especially.
>>1346395
You mean only Meyer in the context of Fechtschule?
>>1346390
Seems legit. Also it grants more fighting for everyone, and that's good.
>>1346397
Yes Meyer, but all later Marksbrothers had stabbing outlawed in friendlies. So having sporting rules is not anachronistic per se.
>>1346407
We tried, it didn't work.
>making a good tournament is fucking complicated, it needs a dedicated team and months to prepare. The ruleset alone plus the referee training is complicated as hell.
>>1346390
so just one big pool
>>1346420
Yup.
>>1346413
I do realise refereeing is a big issue. Last weekend i lost 4 fights in rapier+whatever because apparently my thrusts (and even a cut to the mask) are invisible and somehow every missed thrust looks like it hits me.
So i remain partial to self refereeing.
The ruleset... i'd say keep it simple, and have a clear idea of what you're trying to achieve with it. The big issue is getting people to actually read it beforehand.
>>1345924
Forgeng's Meyer translation for a start perhaps?
http://www.mediafire.com/download/byl72m2jmwtla5v/Meyer.pdf
Longsword, dusack, rapier, dagger, staff, halberd, pike.
>>1346475
Historical protection too?
>>1346395
it highly varied from city to city. But it's true that for simple friendly sparring a lot of people seen stabbing as underhandedly, BUT in fights they totally used it, and even trained for it.
>>1346483
That would be kind of a problem in blossfechten. Cool but not easy to do. Let's start with just the rules, buddy. Maybe one day we'll do it unprotected too.
>>1346475
Franco-Belgian tournament rules work that way, every now and then someone organizes a bout this way.
kek
sasha skanks is so shit
>>1346515
But weren't the rules "whoever bleeds more loses"?
>>1346527
First blood could be one way to determine the winner, though it doesn't appear to have been the only one.
Unfortunately, that blood might be coming from fingers that'll never be the same again, a knee which will hurt with every step form now on, or it could be mixed up with bits of brain.
So generally we prefer other ways to determine the winner nowadays.
>>1346527
Wasn't it the first one bleeding from the head loses? In that case we can just give points for the hits on the mask.
I agree about the rules issue of "training for rules" taking over. Perhaps a large emphasis on ceremony and suchlike would encourage it to be more about mastering the art than the rules.
>>1346675
here is the problem: While in ye olden days you went to actually swordfight with dudes you wanted to kill nowdays that's heavily frowned upon. So there is no real reason to learn that skillset, there is no pressure on the people.
And the only way to "test" their skill is to fence with others in a safe manner. And because you don't want to kill your fencing partners in most cases there will be safety rules. So the fencing method will change because now the pressure on you is to DONT kill the other guy, which means stuff will change over time.
>>1346183
I don't know about you, but I'm gonna start putting band patches all over my jacket. So I can make it into a literal battle vest and inform everyone about my superior music taste.
>>1346700
it's actually a good way to get other peoples fight you if you think about it
>>1346675
Ceremony is the worst cancer to add to any martial art. Simple salutes and etiquette are fine. But beyond that, if a martial art is doing rituals or ceremonies, it's a fucking cult.
>>1345993
>>1346342
But there is still the mindset issue with historical martial arts. The goal of their training was to survive duels, battles and other violent encounters.
The mindset element of a martial art is way underestimated. like>>1346680
says, as long as your mind is on the meta game of winning sporting matches, there is a disconnect with the original material>>1346680
>>1346708
>>1346708
I dont want to take the focus of this thread away from Hema and swordsmanship but this is a rather ignorant comment.
There are many martial arts that adapted various religous practices as a vital element in transmitting their teachings
Likewise many marital arts were founded around religious centers and simply would not exist without their influence.
"After practicing the secret rituals of marishi-sonten... I received an inspiration from the deity...from my heart gushed out."
-Kamiidzumi ise no kami Nobutsuna, founder of shinkage ryu
>>1346708
Seems a very postmodern view. Do you think Kendo is a cult? Don't be so ignorant.
>>1346710
In that case, why not single match elimination?
>>1346761
can be done, but many people are disapointed if they travel far and only fight 5 minutes.
I'm looking for a rather famous photograph of a man beheaded in a saber duel with the victor walking away. It should be a black and white photograph.
This seems like a good place to ask.
How does Mensur compare to HEMA? I can't seem to find much information about Mensur, but then again my German isn't very good. They seem to be the only sword-tradition in Europe claiming an unbroken continuity.
>>1346891
Mensur is about getting manly scars more than "winning". The two combatants stand in front of each other and only move their sword arm until someone gets hit. They do a number of exchanges or something like that and then they stop.
Presumably the one bleeding less would be the winner, but as long as you take your hits without flinching you're cool.
>>1346785
I know the image you're looking for. It's in Robert Baldick's "The Duel".
>>1332218
Get a buoy cut in half, voila, plastic hand guard.
>>1345924
Wiktenauer?
To german longswordfags:
Gentlemen, your thoughts on this interpretation of the krumphaw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyqFaS-7xJA
>>1346179
>What are people's thoughts on HEMA apparel like pic related?
1st thought: made me want to shoot myself
2nd thought: made me want to shoot the guy wearing it instead
3rd thought: made me want to shoot the designer/sellers instead of the model
>>1346428
>Last weekend i lost 4 fights in rapier+whatever because apparently my thrusts (and even a cut to the mask) are invisible
Quit whining, faggot, if the thrust doesn't bend against the opponent you didn't hit strongly enough for a major injury anyway.
>>1347586
Interesting theory, but until Clements or any of his ARMA boys actually go to a tournament and pull it off under pressure, I would dismiss this interpretation, and any interpretation, that comes from ARMA.
>>1349498
This is no valid objection tho. How many actual plays from any sauce is anybody able to perform in tournament? Maybe 1 out of 10? I'd say mych less.
So my concern wasn't about Clements and his cultists, but only about this very interpretation of the krupmhau.
Also, he says doing that way you end up exactly like in textbook (and I assume he meant fechtbuecher) illustrations: any idea of which sauce and illustration is he talking about?
>>1349527
I think the point that Sword Myung Moon and his possy are ignoring (or ignorant of) is that this whole interpretation of the krump is assuming that someone goes for probably the most telegraphed and shitty thrust imaginable. It's also not very conservative in terms of motion required and does very little in terms of defense with a non-cooperative sparring partner. So that whole point about "Okay if this is so valid, pull it off in a sparring bout even ONCE and we'll talk" is actually pretty fair. Towards the end of the video where you see his partner throwing the attacks at him with a bit more vigor, you sort of get a feeling for how incredibly ineffective and unprotected this version of the krump is.
>>1348579
It did. An the ones that scored against me didn't. The judging was fucking awful.
>>1347586
All I see is fat and poor technique.
>>1346908
>>1346785
Found it
>>1350449
Holy shit, I knew that sabers cut well, but to pull a cut like that in a real fight.
>>1350580
A well executed parry to the left (high prime) and riposte from the right could have done the trick.
>only speculating, no chance to really tell from the pic
>reminds me of never fighting duels with sharps, ever.
>>1346891
Mensur isn't fencing. It's a courage test which involves swords.
Interesting thing, for sure, but definitely not fencing.
>>1351607
Please use the German term "Schlagen" for the scarfaces, Mensur is already used in the HEMA vocabulary for something different.
Mensur is latin for the measure, it implies the distance between two fencers. Theres wide mensur, normal mensur and close mensur.
>>1351607
its hard to believe that its a practice completely disconnected from European fencing culture.
frankly I have a good deal of respect for any fencing who does something like that with sharps
>>1351827
But it is, it has different roots and has nothing to do with fencing or with skill, but is a test of courage for the insecure. It is two guys standing in a fixed distance, striking at each others until at least one bleeds.
Now you have been told this a couple of times over the last few months, now deal with it.
>>1351827
While it seems to have taken an unfortunate political turn a century or so ago, the bit where they find a relatively safe way to point sharp blades at each other is intriguing, as that's one part of swordsmanship we aren't going to get out of current HEMA.
>>1351853
Thats the first comment Ive made on it. I would be very interested in its historical roots
>>1350580
>Something weird had to have happened to make him that vulnerable
You're making a common WMA-ist mistake here: just because the skills and the treatises existed, that doesn't mean everyone with a saber was an elite fighter. Probably just some mouthy military rube who got hubris and fucked with a real fighter.
>>1352007
or he got injured during the fight in a way that couldn't protect himself anymore with the same efficiency.
>>1351860
That pic is HEMA, experimenting with old school rules,
>bout to the first blood, Meyer style, blunt feders and only minimal protection.
>>1351890
Sorry then, I fought you where the other guy.
fencing is an old thing, and since the they have universities, students where a part of it, fencing was important and being a good fencer was highly regarded, secret dueling even more. Over time, bloody duels became more and more illegal, and rules and protection became more strict to prevent lethal injuries. In the end, it became more something like a ritual and not a fight anymore. Now it is about how stoic you can take a wound an not how well you can fight.
tl;dr, it has historic roots in dueling, but nowadays it is only a ritualized test of courage.
>got a german 20th century Korbschlaeger blade somewhere, tell me if you want pics
>>1352296
Well, thats how you lose fights, isn't it?
>>1352452
that or getting a fatal hit at first.
People sometimes overlook the first rule of fights: always finish with the same number of holes and on the same place that you started with
>>1352437
Thats certainly true, to an extent. I have to imagine many of the people doing it at say the turn of the century were skilled fencers. Even as a ritualized test of courage, Its not necessarily without value to sword culture
>>1352296
Not plausible. Unless the injury happened just a moment or two before the decapitating blow, the seconds would almost certainly have stopped the duel at that point.
Fuck I've been looking to get into Hema German longsword for so long but there's nowhere near me I know of. If anyone knows any places in Western Washington that'd be cool.
>>1353260
even if it's a duel to death?
R8 my poleaxe wasters, /asp/
I look around and feel bad that we forced wwe upon you guys
>>1354054
Are you retarded or a troll? Past the first real blow the bottles will be a crumpled mess and you'll be hitting eachother with sticks.
>>1353942
Possible, but I think such duels were extremely rare and illegal, so probably not something you'd let someone photograph. Could be wrong, not really my area of history.
Do HEMALARPers use maraging steel?
>>1354104
No we use iron sand folded a million times for our cosplay realistic super sharp swords which we use to pretend we're medieval knights.
>>1353843
http://www.communitywalk.com/HistoricalEuropeanMartialArts%28WesternNorthAmerica%29
I don't know what's considered West Washington, so here are some schools in Washington and you can see if there are any near you.
>>1317085
>>1317085
OH MY GOSH
*photoshops your instagram pics into porn and prints those to college walls*
I WAS TOTALLY LIKE
*tells girlfriends to bully you until you have no friends*
STUFF I MEAN LIKE YOU KNOW
*invites you over to WC just to verbally abuse you*
LIKE TOTALLY DOING STUFF LIKE
*cheats with ur bf*
I MEAN LIKE GOSH
*uses you just as a wallet and then pretends she doesnt know you*
IF YOU TOTALLY KNOW WHAT I MEAN BY
*uses pepperspray on ur misogynistic face and stabs ur car tires broke*
FIGHTING LIKE I MEAN LIKE REAL FIGHTS AND SHIT
*tries to rip your clothes and mess up the hairstyle*
LIKE YOU KNOW LIKE FIGHTING LIKE A GIRL
*pretends to be friends to get more lyrics up for her new party EP song productions like "Jennifer A. Is A Whore*
I MEAN WHATEVER
>>1354054
look fucking sick m8
fill'em up with silicone then cut the plastic off.
Do any of you folks have HEMA activities at your Universities? I was thinking that given HEMA tends to be at the intersection of sports and academia, Universities would be the best place to promote it. It would probably help to provide legitimacy and representation (outside of our current "that guy on youtube"), as well as allow the practice to grow.
>>1355370
We did a demo once, but it's problematic when most of the club has a job during university hours.
>>1355370
May just be a bad personal experience, but the only university affiliated club I've ever encountered was about 90% "we do what's cool/what works" people, used a plethora of weapons they had no idea how to use, and didn't strike at the head (no masks), forearms or lower legs as they were "cheap shots". They were nice people, but not practising what I'd call HEMA.
>>1355370
We used to be mostly students and we practised right in the university; just in the hallways or right out front. Over time we got more people, more real working people, lots of the founders finished their studies...so we got connected to a sports fencing club and we now use their sports hall.
I'd say about half our newcomers are students still, but usually it's the older, working guys who actually stay on. So for us the university connection didn't do that much good.
But it's also a purely MINT/Medical university; maybe it works when you've some humanities around.
>>1355526
>maybe it works when you've some humanities around.
Strictly fencing speaking
Engineering / Mathematics students kick ass
Pharmacists / Medicine are ok tier
Germanistics / Philosophy /h Hstory suck donkey dick
>ok, my sample size is not that big
>>1355601
On the other hand you're more likely to get somebody who cares about the H from humanities.
Or that has some applicable skill, like understanding medieval Latin.
>>1353942
Yes. In the "mostly using sabers" era, a fight like that would normally be broken off and taken back up again after the injury was healed, if one person could no longer participate.
>>1355601
I've done sport fencing and Kendo, in both cases it's been the kinseiology folks on top, followed by humanities and bio, with Engineering at the bottom. Usually because where I am, Engineering students are too busy for sports nonsense.
>>1355601
I'm a Medieval Major
Come at me bro
>tfw i'm going to be unemployable but happy
how do you think the cross-guard on this sword would affect functionality?
>>1356824
+Easier to "grab" a weapon between blade and guard
+Rear quillion won't bother you
-Much less hand protection
How should I prevent my basket from sliding upwards and sideways without permanently affixing it to the stick? It bangs into my hand and can be unwantedly shortened at times.
>>1357464
grip the stick tighter.
other than that, you might try adding some layers of hockey grip tape at strategic points for more of a friction fit.
