First two parts of Chapter 4 are up https://www.baka-tsuki.org/project/index.php?title=Toaru_Majutsu_no_Index:NT_Volume14_Chapter_4
>“Hey, human. Don’t forget about Nephthys’s problem. Despite her unnecessarily large body, she can’t move. Someone will have to carry her, which will slow us down. I can’t exactly do it with this body, you’re in charge of fighting, and the cabal girl is out too. I guess that leaves the Index Librorum Prohibitorum.”
No wonder she died
>>133625690
I find it amusing that Othinus thinks she's at a good size right now.
>Kamisato is Shikamaru
Didn't see that one coming but it works well
The shadow thing Kamisato does is cool. I dunno, Kamisato seems far more organized and put together than Touma ever was and ever will be. This is, of course, a huge negative to people who like Touma's disorganized style
It's no wonder Kamisato's harem is much more devoted to him than Touma's now, it's become obvious he "saves" them by learning what their goals are and helping see them through, while Touma's version of saving often has him rejecting other people's methods and telling them that other ones would be better.
>>133626021
I'm thinking perhaps Kamisato's well put together style may be a part of why he hates his powers and magic gods. I can easily imagine him being a well put together person and feeling as though this neatly put together fighting style is a mockery of him and the way he once did normal things
>“Then what are you going to do? Save both sisters or refuse to give up on either one? You’re the kind of fool that never manages to make a decision and loses both of them. You’re a nothing with a different obsession than mine. You’re just a hypocrite who protects your own humanity by sobbing that there was no other option after you lose everything. Don’t make me laugh, Kamijou Touma. You choose nothing, abandon nothing, and take on none of the burden. I don’t want to hear someone like that lecture me on salvation. As long as you continue to support Leivina’s plan, you stand on the side of taking a life to give this a nice clean ending.”
>“Even if…”
>Kamijou Touma clenched his teeth, stared at his enemy, and shouted back from the bottom of his gut.
>“Even if that’s true, I still have to say it!! If a girl is standing before me asking for help, I have to give her that ideal answer or it’s all over!! I have to tell her that I won’t let anyone be lost, that I won’t leave anyone in a world of fear and suffering, and that I’ll make sure everyone can smile together in the end!!”
>Kicking Kamisato downstars
>Piercing Touma's foot with a pen
Quite normal fight. I like it.
>>133626146
Yes. Touma basically says "my way is right, and if you don't think so, I'll beat you over the head with my methods" while Kamisato seems to have a far gentler approach that appears to be nearly as effective
>Touma calls Kamisato a rookie as he details how to save both Birdway Sisters with methods Kamisato had all along
BASED
A
S
E
D
>>133625610
Damn, this fight is intense, even for normal highschool boys.
>>133626410
Damn Touma's mind works fast at times like these.
>>133626374
Keep reading, Kamisato's way is not really depicted as being effective, he's the "make the hard choice guy" who in the railroad track problem would switch the track to kill one person and save 3. Touma is running onto the tracks and trying to grab everyone off of it instead.
>>133626546
So Touma is Shirou and Kamisato is Kerry
>No Birdway being badass fighting
Damn it, Kamachi.
>>133626591
birdway a shit
>>133626374
In this case, it's basically optimism versus pessimism. Touma's willing to take a chance if it means potentially saving everyone without sacrifices, which is certainly admirable and idealistic, but probably not practical or realistic. Kamisato's approach is more cynical, preferring a guaranteed method that will definitely save everyone, but with a cost attached.
Instead of risking failure for a greater result, he's just going to take an option with a 100% chance of success even if it isn't optimal. If you think about it, it's similar to how Kamisato would "rip up the love letter" because of how he's afraid to learn if it's real or not.
>They are trying to out moralfag each other
>>133625710
>Six inches is more than enough -Othinus
I WANT TO FUCK KAMISATO
>>133626586
Basically, Kamisato's harem is probably all over him because he listened to their ideas and supported them as much as he can, but might not be the best outcome even if it's the most realistic.
>>133626613
Which is why it's a good thing it's been shown Kamijou is a natural phenomenon and saves anyone if he is in the vicinity
Kamisatofags BTFO
>Why don't you just use the plant girl's fat?
Oh god, he weaponized Frodo.
>>133626666
>Basically, Kamisato's harem is probably all over him because he listened to their ideas and supported them as much as he can, but might not be the best outcome even if it's the most realistic.
Sometimes the best solution isn't the solution you want, though. Especially when a time limit is involved, sometimes you don't have the time to find the best solution. But hey, good going of Touma for finding a better solution. Something tells me it isn't going to be that easy, though.
>>133626682
>trying to start a flame war
>It’s important. Checking back over the initial conditions is important, rookie.
Oh damn, in the back of my mind I wanted this to happen but didn't think it actually would.
>This is what it means to be a normal high school boy!
Based
>>133626742
Everyone wants the best solution. You might not think you can pull it off, but as Touma said, everyone would want the "everyone lived happily ever after" ending if they thought it was realistic.
It's the last chapter, I wouldn't be surprised if it worked, not to mention like Kihara Kagun said if you're within Touma's sights you can be saved.
>>133626610
>Shitposting with shit taste
Insane Magic Gods > Kamisato
Selfish Touma > Bullshit Touma
So far reading this volume has only made me appreciate magic gods even more.
>>133626364
It is a really fun fight
You can see Touma is far more experienced and agressive but Kamisato is not lacking behind
>>133626817
Touma has always been selfish, since volume one. Do you not realize he did not save Index because it was right but because he wanted to? He doesn't save people because he thinks it's right. He does it for no other reason than he wants to
>>133625891
Is that how Kamisato uses his power? I still couldn't understand how he uses the shadows. Does he extend his own shadow from his person to use WR? Or is it more of a area where there are shadows of things he can use WR on?
>>133626799
>Everyone wants the best solution.
Yeah, but when a time limit is involved the time required to find the best solution might make it undesirable.
That's what I meant.
>You might not think you can pull it off, but as Touma said, everyone would want the "everyone lived happily ever after" ending if they thought it was realistic.
Yeah, but what would Touma do if he couldn't think of the best solution? He might be a quick thinker, but more complex problems would require more time to find the best solution and it would make it no longer be the best because of time spent trying to find it.
>“I will save them, Kamisato.”
>“?”
>“I will save both Leivinia and Patricia. They may both want to sacrifice themselves for the other! They may be willing to accept the pain and fear of being skin and bones hooked up to a machine! But I’ll destroy all of that and ruin all of that to save everyone and everything!! No matter what happens, I will not cut off the Birdway sisters as a lost cause!!”
>“What…are you talking about?”
>“This is what it means to be a hero. This is what it means to be a normal high school boy! This is what we say at times like this. An actual method or real odds of success don’t matter. Even if we have no idea what we can do and we’ve reached a dead-end, we still have to make sure everything works out in the end!! Isn’t that perfectly normal? Why should I have to explain why I would want to save everyone, keep everyone from dying, and not leave anyone behind in a world of fear and suffering!!!?”
>“Again, how will you do it?” Kamisato gave his mocking reply catching his breath. “The growth of Leivinia’s fruit will cause her to burst from within and forcibly removing Sample Shoggoth from Patricia will kill her. You can only save one or the other. You can’t save both. The only way to save both is to find an external way to supply Patricia with nutrients instead of relying on her body’s fat, no matter what changes the process will make to her body. Or are you saying you know someone with an even more useful supernatural power?”
>“Didn’t I tell you? I don’t care if you call it pathetic, unsightly, or backwards.” Kamijou answered with a relaxed smile. “According to Birdway, the parasite dissolved Patricia’s fat and slipped into that empty space. Since it’s handling the storage and distribution of nutrients, she’ll die from lack of nutrients if it’s forcibly removed. And that fruit is needed to safely drive it out without killing her.”
>>133626873
As soon as Kamisato stabbed Touma with the pen my first thought jumped to "cutting people off"
>>133626928
>“So what? Why would you repeat the hopeless situation?”
>“It’s important. Checking back over the initial conditions is important, rookie. And if those are our conditions, then this is simple. We just have to fill Patricia’s body with fat to take the place of that thing. And I’m not talking about an IV or dialysis. I’m simply talking about returning her to normal by giving her the fat she’s lost. If we use the fat to drive out the parasite like a game of musical chairs, Patricia won’t be left as skin and bones after the monster’s gone! If the new fat supplies her with the nutrients she needs, she won’t die!! We might be able to save her without the fruit!! And without her turning into a bedridden chrysalis!!”
>“Thanks for the speech, but do you see a convenient tool like that lying around? Don’t tell me actually think you can suck out your fat like a liposuction diet and pump it into Patricia to solve this.”
>“You already know the solution.”
>This time, Kamisato Kakeru came to a complete stop.
>For a brief moment, he completely forgot to fight his enemy.
>“What?”
>“You know someone who’s more like a plant than an animal, right? You know someone can use bonds and whatever else to absorb the traits of any kind of matter, right?”
>And…
>And…
>And…
>“Did you forget that fat doesn’t necessarily come from animals!? There are plenty of plant fats like canola oil or margarine!!”
>Kamisato Kakeru’s assumptions, perceptions, and thoughts vanished.
>His problems and hardships vanished.
>He even forgot to breathe.
>Meanwhile, Kamijou continued speaking.
>“Of course, just stuffing margarine inside someone’s body won’t supply them with nutrients. Things aren’t that convenient.”
>The fruit growing in Birdway’s chest was apparently made of corn starch.
>>133626899
What is NT9?
>>133626923
You're using the terms desire and "best solution" wrong. It takes no time to think "Man, it would be great if none of my friends died and we could go back to having happy days again". That's what everyone desires and is the best solution, it's just not always realistic or attainable.
>>133626969
Are you trying to prove me wrong by posting a volume that proves my point right
>>133626966
>The substance had originally been used in threads or sheets to sew up or cover wounds. Once affixed to the patient, they would naturally break down and fuse with the surrounding tissue to smoothly close the wound without needing to be removed later. In other words, the body would not reject it under the right circumstances.
>“But your comrade is different, isn’t she? You said that gardening club member named Claire is a Gemstone and her body is almost entirely like a plant. That means we only need her help. She can use her own body as an example to make some plant fat that the human body will accept. Then she only has to pump it into Patricia! That will solve everything without having to sacrifice anyone!!”
>“…”
>“So I’ll say it. I’ll shamelessly take what belonged to someone else and show it off like it’s mine. If you had just spoken to her yourself, you could have saved both the Birdway sisters!! And without the fear and suffering of becoming a bedridden chrysalis! But you tried to act cool, acted like tragedy was a virtue, and readily gave up on them without bothering to worry over it to a pathetic extent! How are you a hero? What salvation is there in anything you’ve done here!? You idiot!!!!!”
>Kamisato was caught off guard.
>The righteousness he had believed in had been rejected and his very existence was being mocked.
>“I have no proof this will work.”
>Kamijou spat out those words.
>He did not avoid looking at his own flaws.
>“Neither of us has any proof that our plan will save them. We’re both awful people for resting the lives of those sisters on our amateur opinions! But if I have a choice, I’ll go with my plan. Even if yours worked, there would be no smiles. If the odds are even, of course I’ll choose the one that lets us smile afterwards!!”
>>133627022
I think he's pointing out that NT9 is a turning point for Touma and he's more selfish now than he was before that.
>>133626921
If Touma is correct WR works by touching the victim with its shadow
He turned off the lights to have full control over the light sources and therefore shadows in the place
>>133627035
>Kamisato could not argue back. He could not move his right hand. He had realized that, in this situation, he could not provide an answer better than the one Kamijou Touma had.
>At that moment, a sticky noise reached them.
>They looked over and saw red and black amorphous creatures clinging to the wall of the neighboring building. One was an animal skin that looked like a rotting carpet and the other was an Antarctic parasite that dissolved a human’s fat and slipped into the empty space. Now that they had an answer, those beloved sisters no longer needed to fight to the death.
>“Those morons have been swept away by the atmosphere here!!”
>Kamijou moved his aching body to slowly stand back up.
>Kamisato looked up at him from the floor.
>“What are you going to do? They’re clinging to the wall pretty high up. That’s not in range of your right hand.”
>“Let me ask you something instead. What do you want to do?” spat back Kamijou. “You said before that you didn’t gain that power because you wanted to and that you aren’t doing this because you want to. If you can stand here, look at those sisters, and still say that, then you can sit there on your pathetic little ass. I’ll go take care of everything.”
>“…”
>“But if…”
>He paused for a beat and made a reversal.
>“If you look at those two! If you look at those girls crawling down the path of ridiculous tragedy and needless sacrifice!! And you feel anything at all, then come with me. Listen, rookie. The kind of normal high school boy you can find anywhere is someone who can become a hero at any time if they happen to see someone in need!!!!!”
>That was completely normal.
>Everyone felt the desire to save someone.
>But if they did not even try because they had decided they could not, then they were even lower than average.
>That was what a loser did.
>It was the thought process of someone without any balls.
>>133627051
It also explains why all his haremettes were armed with flashlights of all things, they weren't just pointing out Touma to Kamisato.
>>133627057
>So if they did not want to be called those names, they had to stand up.
>It did not matter if they were afraid, if their legs were shaking, if their teeth were chattering, or their mind had gone blank.
>Being normal or being average was not a simple thing. It was not easy. Doing nothing was not “normal”. A lot of effort went into keeping that title, even if it went unnoticed. Slacking off even a little bit in that effort would cause one to stray from the path of being “normal”.
>So…
>“Show me what being ‘normal’ is to you.”
>Kamijou Touma, the kind of normal high school boy one could find anywhere, spoke.
>“Show me just how beautiful the ‘normal’ world you want is!!”
>>133627070
Oh shit I didn't realize that until just now.
>>133627096
Was there really a need to dump half the chapter
So his plan is just to pump her full of fat?
Why couldn't normal surgery just work then?
>>133627142
anon that dump had him throwing retarded shit in, read that again then go read the chapter.
>>133627156
toumas trying to do it in a fashion that actively doesn't piss off the shuggoth.
>>133626742
Of course, it's a tradeoff. At the end of the day, everyone wants to save as many people as possible, but it comes down to how you go about it.
Are you willing to take a risk if it means you might achieve that golden ending? That's humane and hopeful, but looking at it another way, you could think of it as reckless and foolish. You might save everyone, but you might also save less than if you'd gone with a guaranteed route. You might even lose all of them.
Or are you not going to compromise and instead go with a surefire method to save people, even if it won't be the happiest ending for everyone? That's definitely logical and pragmatic, but on the other hand, you could say it's cowardly or even coldly utilitarian. In the end, you're immediately writing people off for the sake of results, whose smiles could have been protected if you'd just taken a chance.
>>133627015
>You're using the terms desire and "best solution" wrong.
You got my meaning, arguing about words is just pettiness from your part.
>That's what everyone desires and is the best solution, it's just not always realistic or attainable.
No, what everyone desires is a certain goal or target. The best solution is the way to reach that goal.
Again, what would Touma do if he couldn't think of the best solution in time to reach the best ending? He might be a quick thinker, but more complex problems would require more time to find the best solution and it would make it no longer be the best because of time spent trying to find it.
>>133627156
Sample Shoggoth would see that as resistance and it would go ballistic.
When the fuck is Othinus going to die?
>>133626935
I was still recovering from the fact that Touma throw Kamisato off the floor twice but you may have a point
>>133627192
Kamachi is tackling quite the complex issue in this LN.
I like it.
>>133627157
I only read a couple lines before figuring it was the exact same since those lines were. Sue me.
>>133627220
NT10
>>133627220
Speaking of which, isn't she riding on Touma's shoulder this whole fight?
>>133627057
nah Touma's just wrong here.
There is nothing wrong with not trying, and nobody is ever obligated to save someone else otherwise sacrifice would be meaningless.
>The only way to save both is to find an external way to supply Patricia with nutrients instead of relying on her body’s fat, no matter what changes the process will make to her body. Or are you saying you know someone with an even more useful supernatural power?
This is actually the point where I would chime in, "It's Beetle time."
>“Let me ask you something instead. What do you want to do?” spat back Kamijou. “You said before that you didn’t gain that power because you wanted to and that you aren’t doing this because you want to. If you can stand here, look at those sisters, and still say that, then you can sit there on your pathetic little ass. I’ll go take care of everything.”
Kamisato got completely annihilated there
>>133627201
I'm not being petty, Touma's "best solution" to every problem is quite literally just to make everyone happy. Saying that it might take time to think of a way to make everyone happy doesn't magically change the fact that everyone being happy would be the most preferred solution.
Kamisato seems like a better hero or person to turn to than Touma because he seems easier to talk to. Either Touma's racing off to save someone else or if you can manage to speak to him about a problem you'll just get "My thoughts and opinions are correct, I'll just punch it" there's no established connection there.
Holy shit, I've just figured out why I can't like any ship evolving Touma. He can't have a meaningful connection to anyone.
>>133627128
It was hinted in his first illustration too. The sun is shining behind him.
>>133627325
>I've just figured out why I can't like any ship evolving Touma. He can't have a meaningful connection to anyone.
Care to explain? I'm a bit interested in this claim of yours.
>>133627220
>implying
othinus at this point is full blown immortal, she has so many damn deathflags that she revolved back to full blown immortality and even more plot armor then touma.
Honestly it was too bullshitty that Touma suddenly got an answer that could solve their problem. Also, can't he see how Kamisato's way was something to give them more TIME? Fucking hell Touma. Birdway could just make another fruit after that as they didn't had a fucking time limit. But noooo, Touma needs to always be right.
>>133627301
I didn't think of Kakine but since he can replace entire bodies it would definitely work.
Best Doge when?
>>133627325
Holy shit you're dumb.
>>133625891
Dammit Kamachi
>>133627301
Or frog doctor or Pendex or Komoe
In all honesty there are a couple of capable healers on his side but I guess he choose someone on Kamisato's harem on pourpose
>>133627405
>Make a second fruit
>After the first one explodes and kills her
Good luck with that one
>>133627405
reminder kamisato is still gonna explode best doge and probably touma as well.
>>133627385
Any relationship with Touma would be nothing but hearing Touma say "my feelings and thoughts are always correct and I'll beat it into you if you disagree" in various ways. That's not a relationship.
>>133627449
I think he chose her because of Levinia's fruit being based on corn, it's the same way he decodes how magic works usually by thinking of tangentially related things.
>>133627473
He only does that to people who are wrong, though
>>133627473
Too obvious.
>>133627405
If Touma was the type of person to accept that sort of temporary solution he wouldn't have gotten involved with Index back in vol 1. Plus, at no point in his explanation did Kamisato actually say he was going to keep attempting to come up with a proper solution. He only intended to learn how to partially control the parasite but it would still be eating away at Patricia.
>Being normal or being average was not a simple thing. It was not easy. Doing nothing was not “normal”. A lot of effort went into keeping that title, even if it went unnoticed. Slacking off even a little bit in that effort would cause one to stray from the path of being “normal”.
Sure is hard being normal these days
>>133627473
The perfect housbando
>>133627289
Seriously this.
Sometimes I feel Touma is getting more retarded a la we Shirou now way.
>>133627405
>Touma needs to always be right
I don't think Touma is right rather Kamisato is too inexperienced to argue with Touma.
>>133627520
It is painfully obvious, but there it is
>>133627473
He gives in to Index about things literally every day, he sleeps in the fucking bathtub, he obviously knows how to compromise.
>>133627325
Even if Touma's unwilling to accept an answer that isn't his in regards to saving people, Kamisato's guilty of that too. It's like Touma said, he decided that destroying the fruit and hooking Patricia up to a machine was the only solution. What she thought or wanted is secondary.
>>133627564
Touma's been a Shirou since day 1 anon
>>133627220
Kind girls never die.
>>133627580
He doesn't want Index to starve. He sleeps in the bathtub because of his own feelings, not Index's. Those aren't examples of Touma compromising
>Everyone felt the desire to save someone.
>But if they did not even try because they had decided they could not, then they were even lower than average.
Touma and Deku (especially Chapter 1 Deku) would get along really well.
>>133627473
He only does that to people who choose to hurt or sacrifice innocents though. You're taking what he does superficially without analyzing it. It doesn't matter if you're a siscon, incestfag, shotacon, lesbian, lolicon or if you tried to kill him, as long as you don't hurt innocents then you're perfectly okay in his book. You can bite him or electrocute him and he'll be fine with it.
>>133627489
Yes but even for his standards he was being a little harsh, pointing out a solution that was right in front of Kamisato's nose
I think he was being mean on pourpose to slap some sense into his kouhai
PART 3 WHEN?
IT'S BEEN A HOUR ALREADY.
>Instead of glaring or yelling at her, he crouched down to her level and silently stared her right in the eye. After a while, she looked away awkwardly.
>The cabal boss pouted her lips and answered with a look on her face she could never let her cabal or sister see.
>>133627622
>What is every scene Index tells Touma she doesn't want the normal crap he's making
>What is not going off on Index about how he's treated unfairly
>What is not forcing her to do anything to help him out around the house, like read a damn cookbook
Like another anon said, he's only adamant about how to save people, and considering Kihara Kagun labelled him a natural phenomenon that doesn't allow anyone in his sight to die it's obviously working.
>>133627669
Little bit of Column A, little bit of Column B
>>133627669
It wouldn't hold the weight needed to make Kamisato realize he wasn't thinking things through all the way if the solution didn't come from his own support.
>>133627669
It's like pointing out your opponent's optimal set of moves against you in a chess game. Kamisato wasn't thinking hard enough.
>>133627697
Are you forgetting that 99% of his life is saving people? Yeah, I'd say that thought pattern wouldn't affect him when not saving peopl but his life is literally saving people. Anyone in his life would be constantly exposed to his "I am never wrong and will beat my opinions into you if you dare disagree"
>>133627610
Their ideas of saving everybody are different
So are their methods
>>133627655
Touma's just being wrong here.
There's no shame in not doing anything. We aren't obligated to help each other if we were our helping would lose meaning.
>>133627803
In what way are their ideas of saving people different? All I can think of is that Shirou ends up getting rid of people who are trying to kill everybody while Touma wants to save villains too, which to be fair is exactly what Touma did with HP.
>Index actually do something
>>133627853
But as long as a girl cries, he'll do something about it. He wants everyone to be happy, after all.
>>133627878
The Touma, Index and Othinus team is quite good.
>>133627875
You lost me. Touma never saved HP.
>>133627801
Touma is only "never wrong beat my ideals into you" so far as saving everyone is concerned, if you tell him there's a different way to do it he'll listen, if you tell him he doesn't have all the info he'll listen, the only time he doesn't is if you say "no you can't save everyone" and to be fair he's right to tell you no there, since that's his whole shtick.
>>133627853
Saving someone,
saving yourself for your own sake,
and saving yourself for someone else's sake are three different, yet reasonable things.
It's wanting to save someone, only to think you can't pull it off that becomes a problem.
>>133627911
That's my point, I was saying the only difference I could think of was Shirou killing the servants to end the grail war to save innocents, but Touma has on occasion tried to off people (HP specifically) to save others they're putting in danger.
(He doesn’t actually touch whatever it is like I do. That wouldn’t allow him to attack long range. Then is it anything he sees? Anything he points at? No, it isn’t those either. If so, he wouldn’t have caused a blackout before the attack. He would have wanted to increase his field of vision.)
So…
“The shadow.”
>>133627853
Touma is basically saying the only sin is giving up, which he's only half wrong about.
>>133627875
Not him, but one distinction you can make is that Shirou takes all the burden on himself. He doesn't have value in his own eyes, so he has difficulty accepting others getting hurt for his sake, and his desire to save and protect people is often coupled with nigh-suicidal and irrational actions because of self-preservation being put below everything else.
Touma doesn't really have issues with getting assistance from others and he doesn't necessarily throw himself onto problems like they're grenades.
>>133627878
>>133627875
>Touma wants to save villains too, which to be fair is exactly what Touma did with HP
Touma doubled down on wanting to save "villains" because he regretted disposing of High Priest. HP's rep preceded HP himself.
>>133628012
Before NT9 though I'd say he still has pretty low self worth, the fact he was willing to kill himself to keep everyone else smiling was the whole point of the novel. So before that "day 1" he was more like him. He's willing to rely on others a bit more than Shirou but it isn't unheard of for Shirou to rely on others, he just doesn't fall in as many situations where he's very obviously in need of non lethal help from someone else.
>>133627220
She probably can't die to WR
>>133627911
Oh shit now I see why you're confused, I meant to say "but to be fair Touma stopped trying to save HP like Shirou would"
>>133627449
Frog could surely save her easily, but Touma doesn't know the extend of his science powers
>This is what it means to be a hero. This is what it means to be a normal high school boy!
Based Touman
>>133628267
![[HorribleSubs] Charlotte - 03 [480p].mkv_snapshot_07.19_[2015.07.19_09.18.07].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/CsS0v9G.jpg "[HorribleSubs] Charlotte - 03 [480p].mkv_snapshot_07.19_[2015.07.19_09.18.07].jpg")
>>133628288
>>133628315
>>133627534
It's hard when you have to deal with saints, super powerful magicians, level 5 espers and magic gods on a daily basis, or even twice a day. Because the normal thing to do is to show them they are wrong on their ways and punch their faces through multiple worlds.
>>133628051
Touma's wanted to save villains for a long time anon. Look at Vento, Othinus, whatever that black chick's name was, Tsuchimikado in NT7. If he thinks you're just going about it the wrong way he wants to save them too. Even the guys like Terra or Fiamma he was just trying to stop from fucking over everyone else.
>“Listen, rookie. The kind of normal high school boy you can find anywhere is someone who can become a hero at any time if they happen to see someone in need!!!!!”
Touma-Senpai pls notice me
>>133627853
You are not a normal high school student anon. You don't understand how normal high school students keep their normalcy
Threadly reminder Mikoto a Best
>You choose nothing, abandon nothing, and take on none of the burden
But Touma's first option is that if someone needs to be sacrificed, then he'll sacrifice himself. That's what he literally got into a fight over Birdway with. Surprised Touma let that comment slide.
>>133628436
>tfw you will never be a normal high school boy
Why is normal people so overpowered?
>Touma actually dominated the fight
>>133628503
>filename
I immediately read it with the same noise as Accel making that plasma ball
>This is what it means to be a normal high school boy!
ABSOLUTE MADMAN
>>133628503
Mikoto a shit.
>>133628546
He's a real pro at being a normal high school boy
>self-absorbed asshole who acts cool by calmly giving up too easily and then tries to show off how he made the painful decision no one else could
My sides.
>>133628388
I'm agreeing with you. I'm just pointing out that his fights against Othinus and St. Germain, combined with High Priest's appearance and demeanor, brought Touma's instinct to dispose of a Magic God to the forefront.
Once the task was done, of course the lull in his core would ring hollow.
It sure is convenient that a plant girl just happened to be around.
>>133628611
When you said he regretted getting rid of HP you made it sound as though that was the point when he started wanting to save villains.
>>133627405
>Gemstone that can control plants
>fruit growing out of their body
Gee, that is not hard
>>133628546
He can fight with several normal gang members by himself with his normal abilities
>>133628652
Kakine would have worked just fine.
>>133628671
Honestly, his old claim of being able to barely win against two Skill-Outs at once kinda became obsolete, once Touma could take on and knock out heroes left and right during the free-for-all in NT7.
>But you tried to act cool, acted like tragedy was a virtue, and readily gave up on them without bothering to worry over it to a pathetic extent! How are you a hero? What salvation is there in anything you’ve done here!? You idiot!!!!!”
damn his a pro at being a normal highschool boy
>>133628709
Wasn't that because they were distracted by the thing controlling the hero archetype.
>>133628709
The heroes were not normal, they easily lost because of that. Remember that he can only lose against normal espers, normal American soldiers and normal magicians
Kamisato got BTFO so hard by Touma. Literally broke his illusions without even needing to punch him.
>>133628535
>You choose nothing
Touma choose to protect Othinus and save her despite the villain she was.
>abandon nothing
Turned his back on those he once called comrades because they don't share the same time as Touma and fought them with everything he had.
>and take on none of the burden
Took on Othinus's burden and walked alongside her in doing so became a target of the world.
Othinus a Best
>>133628728
>That was completely normal.
>Everyone felt the desire to save someone.
>But if they did not even try because they had decided they could not, then they were even lower than average.
>That was what a loser did.
>It was the thought process of someone without any balls.
>So if they did not want to be called those names, they had to stand up.
>It did not matter if they were afraid, if their legs were shaking, if their teeth were chattering, or their mind had gone blank.
>Being normal or being average was not a simple thing. It was not easy. Doing nothing was not “normal”. A lot of effort went into keeping that title, even if it went unnoticed. Slacking off even a little bit in that effort would cause one to stray from the path of being “normal”.
Being normal is fucking hard man. Now it becomes clear what Touma's normal means. What other people call ideally selfless, he calls normal. Something lower than that is below average.
so im guessing touma will lose this fight considering how his grooming kamisato as normal highschool boy
>>133628785
Anon it's clearly not about that. Kamisato is talking about Kamijou being a fence sitter when it comes to moral paradoxes not about choosing girls. Ignoring that your claims he turned back on his comrades etc are straight up wrong.
>>133628091
NT9 is a good example, not only Shirou would have killed himself to protect the perfect world without a doubt, if he knew Touma rejected it he would probably label Touma as evil and try to kill him out of sheer rage
>>133628824
As long as everyone goes home smiling without losing anything, he considers it a win anyway.
raildex a shit
sage
>>133628838
That's why I clearly said Touma before NT9 was like him anon.
>>133628503
Perfect body. Haimura getting his shit together and drawing her the way she should be.
>>133628790
That's not it.
Touma actually believes that his way of thought is normal. He truly, genuinely believes that if anyone were in his position, they'd do the same thing. To him, "heroes" don't exist because everyone has the capacity to be a hero.
He doesn't place "normalcy" on some sort of pedestal. He puts the entire human race on a pedestal.
>Toumafags defending Touma for forcing his childish ideal bullshit
>>133628824
But the fight already ended, now they are into the saving people part.
>>133628838
>implying touma wouldn't slap shirous shit in if he tried.
>>133628830
My point is he's full of shit and understands nothing.
>Ignoring that your claims he turned back on his comrades etc are straight up wrong.
If I'm recalling correctly its because of what Ollerus said during the fight with two saints is why I said that.
>>133627157
Having gone back and read the dump, what am I missing? It looks the same.
>>133628790
It kinda goes back to the speech about the world not ending
"Normal" is not the natural state of things, it is something special
>>133628918
>not choosing the ideal route
kamisato please
>>133628957
Kamisato was saying that if Touma had the classic railroad track situation, where you have to either switch the tracks to save 3 people and doom one, Touma would sit there and not pull it. Which he's actually completely right about, when you stick Touma in between a rock and a hard place and force him to make a decision between saving two people he doesn't make a choice, Touma says "fuck you I'm saving both of them" which isn't making a choice, he's not deciding to save one or the other, he's taking both options.
>>133629056
i don't understand why that isn't acceptable when he has the ability to do so.
>>133628917
I don't deny that though? I was speaking of it in terms of what people normally say and the standards other people use since it's comparing it to his view. For him, other people's ideal is what he expects everyone is capable of. Not sure what we're disagreeing with actually since I think that too.
>>133629108
Just because it works for Touma doesn't mean it always will is the point. Touma's an exception and a force of nature, realistically things shouldn't always work out for him, which is why when Kamisato says he makes no hard choices and doesn't abandon anything he's not wrong. Touma does indeed save everyone in arms reach and doesn't choose between the people or the methods in which he saves them, he goes for the best method every time. The "take on none of the burden" line is a little more awkward since there hasn't really been many a situation where Touma's failed post memory loss but he does think it's his fault for HP to be fair.
Basically, Kamisato isn't wrong, he's being a utilitarian, but he's also not thinking positively enough, he's taking it as a foregone conclusion that you can't save everybody perfectly with everyone smiling so when someone gives him a half assed solution he goes "yeah that's probably as good as it gets" where Touma is more optimistic and says they can do better.
>>133629056
And I go right back to my point which is he understands nothing. He has so little experience and knows nothing of the world yet is speaking like he's Omniscient
>decision between saving two people he doesn't make a choice
prego nigga. .
>>133628503
This.
>>133629220
It's true though, if I say "Do you want an orange flavored or grape flavored popsicle" knocking me out and taking both of them doesn't mean you've made a choice.
>>133629016
SHIROU WAS WRONG.
>>133629213
anon you never actually answered my question though, if he has the ability and knowhow to deal with the situation in the best manner thats normally not possible why not do it?
Anyone got the image with the raildex definition of normal high school boy?
I'm liking Kamisato more than Touma here. Touma's obnoxious with his approach.
>>133629289
>>133629244
>prego nigga
What do you think I meant by this?
>>133629315
Me too, but I've always found Touma cancerously obnoxious so there's that
>>133629267
I did anon you just didn't read it thoroughly. Kamisato is talking about situations where you wont always have the know how to make the best choice, because he's a rookie and he overlooks things. He thinks the best solution isn't attainable and that wildly stamping in the darkness and hoping you'll find that solution i wrong.
At no point has Kamisato said "Yeah well even if you can save both of them I'm going to do it in my half assed way" He just doesn't think that Touma can always have the best solution because it fees unrealistic.
>>133629331
That you're a meme spouter who doesn't like using normal sentences.
>>133629346
Kamisato pls.
>Index-Othinus bromance
>>133629346
I don't think Kamisato is wrong, but I don't think Touma is either. I believe Touma needs to lose both girls so he can learn to be disappointed and realized he can't always get his perfect ideal way.
This would be a good way to develop him. I think both should learn to compromise depending the scenario.
>>133629315
>>133629340
Same. Kamisato is a breathe of fresh air. Touma has become so tedious and wall-banging level of annoying for some time now.
>>133629315
>wanting to go with the "take care of a veggy route"
no thanks
>>133629346
>not being ok with it just works
kamisato plz.
>>133629267
Capability doesn't necessarily imply success.
>>133629377
I'm with Touma on this one though, like I said Kamisato is just fucking up because he's a rookie who isn't a force of saving like Touma who manages to always find a way. He needs to learn to look harder for the best solution, but if he can't find it I don't think making compromises is wrong.
>>133629346
Funny thing is that he overlooks things not because he's a rookie (he is) but because his personality flaw dictates that he overlooks things. He cuts off options prematurely because he's afraid of failure. Nigga didn't even try to see what it's like with Leivinia and he's already decided on what to do.
>>133629407
It's less about this and more about Touma learning to grow up and realize the world isn't that simple and sometimes he has to make hard choices.
I couldn't care about two side girls. They could both die and I won't miss them. They are generic harem filler member number 654641.
>>133629405
Agreed. I wouldn't call Kamisato "better" but he pairs well with Touma and gives some airing out of Touma's bullshit
>>133629450
Kamisato isn't Kiritsugu. He's Rin. She had the same issues.
>>133629399
Funny thing is Pre amnesia Touma did have that experience he just forgot it.
>>133629399
Touma would never compromise. Don't you remember what he told Hamazura? No matter how many times he hits game over and has to restart, he'll still keep going forward no matter what. Even if he fails, he'll still keep trying over and over no matter what. Failing to save someone won't change his viewpoint.
His logic isn't that what he's trying to do isn't possible. His logic is that even if you fail, even if the chances are small, he still has to try. Even if everyone else around him has already given up, he'll still try. He won't always succeed, but that doesn't mean he should stop trying just because he fails a couple times.
>>133629498
>Kamisato fucks up at the most important times
>So he has to compromise
I can see it
>>133629560
It's more like Rin doesn't want to try to do the impossible but the most realistic good outcome. All their chat remind me to Rin vs Shirou in HF honestly (about Sakura).
>>133629409
>it just works
fuck off Todd
>>133629538
That's why I think he needs character development.
>>133628655
I said he doubled down; he was already saving them before HP, but seeing HP die made his conviction twice as strong.
>>133629599
Ah that's what you meant
>>133629599
Everything since NT9 has reminded me of HF and I'm nit fan of HF
>>133629641
Yes, although the perfectionist facade and insecurities could also play. Rin also keeps a "mask."
>>133629630
And he just told you why that wouldn't work. If Touma was somehow knew that his method of trying to get the best outcome wouldn't work he'd compromise, but he wouldn't fail, and then decide next time "just in case I fail, I should compromise now"
>>133629657
Also the HF vibe has made me feel like this series is going to have the edgiest ending ever
>>133629687
I think watching both of them die for his indecision would shake him.
>>133629696
In what way is "everything works out because of magic except the loli" the edgiest ending, this isn't mind of steel.
>>133629599
>Kamisato is best girl
>>133629630
He's had character development. It's only reinforced his ideals. Touma doesn't want to give up on anyone. He doesn't want to "cut anyone off". No matter how many times he fails, he will never learn the lesson that you want him to learn. He will always strive for an ending where everyone is smiling.
>>133629056
>Kamisato was saying that if Touma had the classic railroad track situation, where you have to either switch the tracks to save 3 people and doom one, Touma would sit there and not pull it.
Nobody said it by now?Touma would punch the train, that crazy bastard.
>>133629716
Touma doesn't have indecision though, he's not going to lose anyone because he's waffling, he runs right into stuff and starts working on solving them right away. Even in OT1, his first reaction was to pick up the phone and start calling anyone and everyone who might be able to help him find another way.
>>133629733
There's also a "Shirou dies, Sakura plants flowers as an I'm sorry for murdering everyone" ending and a "Shirou becomes empty shell of himself" ending. And Mind of Steel was a good end
>>133629785
Which come to think adds credence to the whole "if Touma knows nothing else will work he'll compromise" thing, he was just about ready to let Stiyl erase Index's memory to save her that way and not in the best way when he had run out of time.
Kamisato should have been an "ordinary high school girl" surrounded by a harem of hot guys.
>>133629814
And there were lots of bad endings too, what's your point? The main ending, the one you were supposed to get wasn't edgy and that's the sort of ending Touma would work for anyways.
>>133629814
>Mind of Steel was a good end
>>133629840
We can't all have nice things
>>133629814
Shirou is an empty shell of himself in mind of steel, idiot.
>>133629325
Excellent. Thanks anon.
>>133629840
Kamisato and Touma have more chemistry together than them with their own "harem". They would have had hatesex and then ditch their harems to have weirdly arm powered ordinary children.
>>133629056
You wouldn't know what decision Touma would make because he's never been in that situation and probably never will.
>>133629840
Kamisato should have been a little girl.
>>133629862
We've already essentially got "hero says fuck everyone, muh evil girl is more important than anything, everyone is sorta okay in the end" so an edgy end being up next makes sense
>>133629901
I'm taking about Sparks Liner High
>>133629948
If you're talking about Othinus, she was literally dying and had lost her powers. Wanting to save her from execution was in no way comparable to leaving Sakura around.
>>133629926
>More chemistry together than with their harem
I dont want to be that guy but did you read the first half of the volume? They were pushing the "understanding" thing between Othinus and him pretty hard, talking by just giving each other looks, discussing what's evil and knowing each other's answers and shit.
>>133629939
Actually scratch that, he has been in that situation in the omegaworld and he made his decision.And then changed his mind.
>self-absorbed asshole who acts cool by calmly giving up too easily and then tries to show off how he made the painful decision no one else could
Kamachi keeps poking fun at certain types of readers in this volume.
>>133629985
It's literally the exact same thing though.
>>133630014
It's not though, Touma made his decision to save Othinus after she was no longer a threat and Shirou made his while Sakura was still killing people. HF wasn't about "Hey we got Shadow out of Sakura, but you know she did some evil stuff she deserves to die for it" like Othinus was
>>133629987
Othinus and Touma seems forced as fuck, while with Kamisato there's a clear common ground and role experience.
They really should have killed Othinus off and make Kamisato a girl.
>>133630056
Othinus chose to be an evil bitch.
Sakura was asleep and had no fucking clue and when she realized what happened, she stopped sleeping.
>>133630089
It's one of the least "forced" character relations in the series, besides literally.
>>133630056
You'd be right if everyone knew Othinus was no longer a threat and just wanted her to die for her crimes. But they didn't. They are both still about a hero saying "fuck everyone my evil girl is more important"
>>133630136
A lot of people were told by Touma "she's not a threat" and gave the reply "I don't care" though
>>133628750
What even IS a normal Magician or Esper?
Also, who is Kamachi trying to fool with this 'normal' thing anyway?
>>133629996
>kamachi writing style is now cancer
>sakura is evil
Missing the point of HF and I don't even like Sakura.
>>133630132
It felt pretty forced in chapter 1 actually. It was a lot better written in NT10. The problem is Kamachi is beating us over the head too much with the 'understanding' stuff.
>>133630187
Well I can't really tell you you didnt think it felt forced, but it's subjective, I thought it worked really well.
>>133630187
>Kamachi is repetitive.
Nothing new here.
>>133630132
I'd say there's worse forced relationships (Touma and Mikoto) but even those other forced relationships kinda sorta make sense if you view them as hat they are and don't force extra shippingshit or hate onto your point of view, even if said relationships are obnoxious. But Touma and Othinus does seem forced. It's like a giant club beating you over the head with "THEY UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER" "LOOK MORE UNDERSTANDING" "DO YOU BELIEVE THET UNDERSTAND WACH OTHER YET? LET ME TELL YOU ONE MORE TIME"
>>133630136
Sakura isn't evil though. Like this guy says >>133630175 Sakura was a convenient scapegoat. If you wanted to punish the real responsible force for HF... you need to wipe out humanity.
Angra Mainyu was a scapegoat too. Shirou simply chose to eliminate him knowing well that he was innocent too. That was the duel between Kotomine and him was about. Both were protecting scapegoats of humanity's sins.
That's why his ideal of "justice" crumbles. Because he realizes humanity is inherently evil. Saber's tainted too, because she too comes to this realization. It's fairly symbolic.
>>133630136
Except everyone was mistaken in this case.
It's not that she's more important than everyone else, it's that there's nothing to lose in trying to save her. This isn't some scenario where keeping Othinus alive endangers the people around her, she was powerless and was even letting herself be slowly killed until Touma convinced her otherwise.
>But I’m not going to become some self-absorbed asshole who acts cool by calmly giving up too easily and then tries to show off how he made the painful decision no one else could!! You don’t get to decide what salvation is, Kamisato!!
REKT
>>133630264
>Touma and Mikoto
There is nothing forced about their relationship. Mikoto wants to go on adventures with Touma so she runs after him and Touma doesn't want to get shocked by Mikoto so he runs away from her.
>>133630282
>nothing to lose
>not harming people
She's still harming Touma by existing.
>>133630264
>INDEX LOVES FOOD.
>INDEX LOVES FOOD.
>INDEX LOVES FOOD.
>INDEX LOVES FOOD.
Do you understand now?
>>133630342
In that sense it's not forced, meaning that doesn't seem illogical. But it IS forced considering she shows up when she shouldn't
>“It’s important. Checking back over the initial conditions is important, rookie.
>Listen, rookie. The kind of normal high school boy you can find anywhere is someone who can become a hero at any time if they happen to see someone in need!!!!!”
Touma laying the smack on Kamisato. Never thought I'd see the day Touma would be looking down on others and calling them rookie.After the novel, Kamisato ditches his harem to learn the way of the right hand under Touma
>>133630187
Not him but I didn't really see anything forced in their scenes. The only thing that I felt slightly forced was Kamachi using Othinus as a mouthpiece to explain why Touma doesn't get a power-up in the story and why the story will still continue like it always has. It was something about the way it was written that makes you think the author was writing to the readers instead of 2 characters in-universe having a conversation. Kamachi does a lot of meta stuff so I'm used to it but he seems to be doing a lot more in this volume.
>>133630353
When did I ever say that wasn't forced as well?
>>133630264
I don't see how just because Kamachi makes the same point a few times it's forced, it's called reinforcement. It's forced if he tells you something and you hear it and go "no that doesn't make sense" not because you've heard it before. They understand each other because they've gone through a shit ton together and their views on lot of matters have influenced each other. Touma and Othinus both talk about what is and isn't evil and they're basically just confirming things with each other, they both do the same sort of things like trying to put themselves in front of harm's way for the other because they know it's been tough for them and they don't want to see it happen. Since NT10 they've had lots of scenes with them confirming things with one another like in NT12 why he's going to get up and keep trying, or smaller things like the banter in the start of this volume, where Othinus knows he's going to take a crack at her for being a freeloader and preempts it.
It's repeated a lot but I don't think it's forced unless you mean forced into your face and unsubtle.
>>133630381
>she shows up when she shouldn't
>>she runs after him
Kind of explains it, doesnt it?
>"You said before that you didn’t gain that power because you wanted to and that you aren’t doing this because you want to. If you can stand here, look at those sisters, and still say that, then you can sit there on your pathetic little ass. I’ll go take care of everything."
Goddamn, this was delicious.
