Name ONE (1) japanese game that is well written.
Note that I said ``game'', not ``visual novel''
Name ONE (1) hentai game that is well written.
Note that I said ``game'', not ``visual novel''
Mario 64
Sup.
Suikoden I, II or III
>>345349920
nice meme
btw Silent Hill 2
>>345348576
Snatcher
>>345350457
>Nice meme
>Literally the deepest game ever that's still getting analyzed today
define ``'well' written''
>>345350592
>MGS
>deep
it's literally Kingdom Hearts tier
>>345348576
Bloodborne
>>345348576
Rule of Rose.
>>345350753
Kingdom Hearts is dumb nonsense for deviantart.
MGS2 is literally the greatest work of art of the 21st century so far.
>>345348576
Name ONE (1) western game that is well written.
ni no kuni
>>345350956
Kingdom hearts is fine. It is meant for kids, so it is about as well written as they could make it.
>>345350592
People are still' analyzing' Final Fantasy VII. But anyone with half a brain realizes it has the depth of a puddle. MGS is literally Shounen anime with sneaking.
yakuza sub stories
>>345348576
Deadly Premonition
MGQ
MAMA 3
I'll be meme'd at, but Metal Gear Solid 2.
And sure, you can reply with a youtube clip of some awkward dialogue or a terrible scene, and I'd have to give it to you. It's got a lot of painful shit in there, but overall it works really well and has an ending which many mocked at the time, but listening to now feels almost prophetic about how information and the internet would evolve in the future. And for that I have to say it's damn good videogame writing.
I fully agree that practically every Japanese game has garbage writing though, and I fucking hate weebs who defend shit, tired, bullshit writing as something that's been ruined by the dub, or the localizers, or voice actors, or whatever, instead of just accepting that it's fucking BAD.
>>345348576
Chrono Trigger
>>345351346
fuck yeah
>>345351264
List of things that SH2 deals with
>BAAWWW MUH WIFE IS DEAD
>Le so deep rape metaphors
List of things that MGS2 deals with
>Meme theory
>Identity
>Self worth
>Censorship
>Social Engineering
>Artificial intelligence
Literally kill yourself
Boku no natsuyasumi
>>345350902
Good choice there.
>>345348576
Earthbound.
Name ONE (1) western game that is well-designed.
>>345351587
This guy really thinks Kojima is a smart person and can properly writes something deep
>>345351609
Come on you hipster asshole, you don't even know what they're saying in that game, it's all in Japanese
>>345351663
Deus Ex; It's also pretty decently written.
>>345351587
>game has more random ideas thrown into the plot so its better written
And by that logic, the Star Wars prequels are better written than most movies just because they had 20 poorly executed concepts. Also, I never mentioned Silent Hill 2. I mentioned FFVII.
Literally kill yourself
>>345350902
Total dogshit. Retards tell themselves they're playing something deep and thought provoking and "artistic" so they don't feel like pedos.
Name ONE game thats harder than Dark Souls.
2D GAMES DONT COUNT!!!
>>345352073
Well-designed is strong language for it.
>>345351663
Diablo II. Gameplay and art design is literally the focus. Which is why it has aged better than games that came out even last year.
>>345348576
None of the visual novels are written well either
>>345352169
Ninja
Gaiden
Black
Odin Sphere
>>345348576
999 and VLR.
>``
Exaplain this.
Final Fantasy Tactics
Tactics Ogre LUCT
Silent Hill 2
Suikoden 1/2
>>345352064
>Learning a language is considered a hipster thing
If you are going to use a meme insult wrongly, at least get with the times and call me cuck while you're at it.
These threads are retarded, and to opinion based.
What someone may subjectively like, you won't and will "objectively" say why when in reality your objective view is biased as fuck.
final fantasy
>>345352089
http://www.deltaheadtranslation.com/MGS2/DOTM_TOC.htm
Try and refute this you piece of shit.
MGS2 is a masterpiece, get over it.
Breath of Fire III and IV
>>345352450
No, I'm accusing you of not knowing Japanese and claiming it's well written just so you can namedrop a game most people aren't familiar with because it isn't translated.
>>345352558
lol I bet you think killer7 is well written too
Name one book that is well written. Go ahead, I'm waiting.
>>345352698
Writing doesn't matter.
MGS2 is the greatest work of art of the 21st century so far.
That isn't opinion, it's fact.
>>345352714
The Gret Catsby:o)
>>345352815
If writing doesn't matter, then Child of Eden is 10x more artistic.
Fucking MGS fans.
>>345352714
La Divina Commedia
>>345353005
Nope sorry.
No game, movie or book from this century so far has done as much to portary a message or idea as MGS2 has.
>>345348576
Suikoden II
Xenogears
FF Tactics
Saga Frontier 2
>>345352714
The Bible. Can't say this shit isn't god tier for being 2016 years old.
>>345352558
MGS2 is hated by its own fanbase. And I'll go more into depth when you actually refute my original claims. And admit you're an idiot for brining up SH2 when I compared MGS to FFVII.
>>345348576
>>345353254
>MGS2 is hated by its own fanbase
No real Metal Gear fan hates MGS2
>>345353171
It's crazy that MGS is not the most hated fanbase on this board when its fans are perhaps the most delusional.
>>345352214
>Diablo II
>aged well
Oh dear...
>>345352653
>no one can actually know japanese past the hiragana and 5 katakana on /v/
>>345353236
It's older than that since it has parts from BC in the Old Testament.
>>345353382
Why can't you think of a better example then?
disgaea
>>345353382
The only delusional ones ITT are the people posting JRPGs.
>>345353265
Have you seen that episode of Bob's Burgers where Linda runs a dinner theater and she tells the audience in the beginning that she's not the killer
Then at the end she revels she was the killer all along
and everyone is mad and she says "That was a twist" and they say "That wasn't a twist, that was just stupid"
That's Ghost Trick.
Not even trying...
>>345353883
Nope. This comparison is dumb and so are you. It's embarrassing that you think this is a clever observation and I hate knowing that you're going to go on believing it no matter how many people call you retarded for it.
>>345353535
Braid is a more artistic game than MGS2.
Its art direction is painterly. Its music always has unity with the visuals and gameplay.
Its gameplay is engaging and interesting, changing significantly between each world.
Its story is very surprisingly deep but esoteric, but most wouldn't know it.
But this was made by someone who obviously took the artistic nature of the game very seriously. The only downside of Braid is that it's kinda short, but it's at least not bogged down by cutscenes.
Also, as I previously said, Child of Eden us also more artistic than MGS, and Limbo is, too.
>>345353883
How the flying fuck is Ghost Trick anything like that? People like the twist because it makes sense, as well as explain all of the main characters' (then) weird handicaps like being unable to read.
>>345351487
>>345353535
Not him but I would have to say Fallout New Vegas is the best written video game ever. Both in terms of the general dialouge and the themes and messages it brings up.
>>345353886
That is the most depressing and boring box art ever made. what the fuck is this called?
>>345354326
I've played all of those.
Opinions and all, but none of them even come close to MGS2.
Braid maybe?
But Child of Eden?
Limbo, fucking lmao, that boring minimalist piece of shit is art?
>>345351346
>anime/movie never
>>345354248
Fans of Ghost Trick are the most insane people on this board. They never actually defend the game and attack anyone trying to detract from their hugbox.
Ghost Trick's gameplay is boring, repetitive, and the puzzles are devoid of any difficulty.
The entire plot hinges upon a fantasy element that is in no way explained until the end of the game. Until that point, there is no way the player can make any predictions about the game's story that is based on any concrete information given to them. You're kept completely in the dark until the end so it can all be revealed as some grand "twist", when the reality is that you were too stupid to see that nothing is as it seems, and making any assumptions to begin with was an effort in futility. There's no way to figure out how the ghost mechanic actually works until it is explained. It's a fantasy element with no rules with any exceptions that can be explained away.
>>345354816
If you don't think Limbo is artistic, then I doubt you've had any art classes.
I'd love for you to make an argument for how MGS2 transcends Braid, though, because aesthetically, it never will.
MGS3. Would say MGS2, but it has some bullshit writing while speaking about very interesting themes. MGS3 is best written, story without 2deep4u messages, but very well done and emotional.
>>345355031
>because aesthetically
Oh look at all the pretty colors!
>>345354957
>Ghost Trick's gameplay is boring, repetitive, and the puzzles are devoid of any difficulty.
I agree with you. But I still love Ghost Trick. What now, faggot? Your strawman of Ghost Trick fans is ruined, but you'll go on saying otherwise just to go on to write up your autistic rant in future.
All I said was your comparison was dumb as fuck and you get triggered and write an essay about Ghost Trick fans being "insane"
Get a grip you flaming shitter.
>>345352653
What do you want me to do, your limitations shouldn't set the standard for any debate.
Boku no Natsuyasumi is 70% character driven, the relatives of the house the mc is spending a summer month interact with you and between them in unique ways and there is next to none trope writing (the little cousin Shirabe is a bit tsundere, but the more you know about the background of the family it is made clear that she is always grumpy with boys, and particularly the mc, because she lost a brother because of illness and it affected the way she copes with loss. By the end of the summer she is still mad that the mc must leave and she has to feel abandoned again). By the end of the game it's amazing how much you can get attached to aunt Kaoru and the last day event is very emotional.
I'm 100% honest when I say I don't expect people to learn Japanese and know of this great series, and I don't feel superior or anything. But I played the game, day after day, looked up 攻略 pages in order to not miss any daily event with the Sorano family, and I felt the writing never went ahead of the realist tone of the game. It tried to portrait a down to earth farm family, with their own problems and personalities. And it did it just right.
>>345355353
There was a single sentence about Ghost Trick's fans.
>>345348576
final fantasy tactics (war of the lions)
>>345354957
>The entire plot hinges upon a fantasy element
Woah woah woah
hol up
Are you telling me ghosts AREN'T REAL?
>>345354753
I give you hints:
>G - is a window
>O - no fantasy
>O - no RPG
>G - for DS
>L - underrated game
>E - made by a dead company
>>345351457
pasta
>>345355216
Nice argument.
A big part of art is in presentation. Aesthetically, Braid has unrivaled unity. Can MGS2 say the same?
Braid makes use of symbolism in fucking gameplay mechanics in order to convey deeper meaning. Can MGS2 say that?
Braid is the most fucking artistic game of all time because it was explicitly designed to be, and it was executed so well that it caused an indie game boom.
>>345354326
>The only downside of Braid is that it's kinda short
The only downside of Braid is that it's a pretentiousness-oozing borefest with a lousy gimmick tacked into it.
The Game
>>345355694
>when a game has depth in its meaning it's pretentious
This is why people don't take games seriously as art.
>>345350956
>Kingdom Hearts is dumb nonsense for deviantart
>MGS2 is literally the greatest work of art of the 21st century so far
I've played the game over 4 times and I still don't get what the fuck is going on
>>345348576
Overwatch
>>345355493
Yeah, and it was that they were "insane"
In response to you being told your Bob's Burgers comparison doesn't work.
But yeah you're totally reasonable
>>345355151
MGS3 is a shitty James Bond fanfiction.
"Alright Boss, I finally have you. But before I kill you, let me explain my whole plan in great detail. We have a few minutes before the bomb goes off anyway".
>>345355817
Braid isn't bad but it's definitely pretentious.
>>345348576
MGS3
Bloodborne
Dark Souls
most of Final Fantasy 6
>>345355414Very impressive
I'm sorry I ever doubted you
>>345355951
It only looks pretentious because of the thousands of other games that make no attempt at being artistic.
>>345355882
You said I was dumb and people will call me retarded. I'm not upset that you called me names. I wanted to elaborate some more on what I feel the way I do, as well as throwing back a mindless internet insult.
>Your're retarded
>You're insane. Also, here's why I think this.
>Wow, name calling? How autistic.
>>345355609
>Presentation
Doesn't matter a single fucking bit, games that claim themselves to be art based solely on their asthaethics are the sheer definition of pretentious
>Game mechanics
MGS2 still involves the player in the story in a big way by essentially using Raiden as an extension of their persona.
Sure, it might not use game mechanics as well as Braid, but that's fucking irrelevant when compared to everything else about the game
>Indie game boom
And MGS2 was probably the first ever game that used the fourth wall to serve the story rather than as a funny little easter egg.
All of the shit that Spec Ops the Line, Bioshock, Hotline Miami, The Stanley Parable and Undertale did?
MGS2 perfected that shit a whole decade before them.
>>345352653
>>345355414
And by the way, just the main title of the game should tell about how the writing is very special in the series: "Boku" is commonly the pronoun male Japanese kids use to refer to themselves. And in the game it is used as a proper noun, the mc is literally called Boku, so players would think in their head "this character is Boku/this character is Me". A neat writing trick to convey immersion.
>>345356173
Okay Anon you win, your comparison to Bob's Burgers was actually a great observation and you should say it every time you hear Ghost Trick mentioned.
Nier
>>345356309
And Braid isn't art solely based on its aesthetics. It just goes the extra mile in doing so. It portrays its story in its gameplay mechanics, its dialogue, and through various symbols throughout the game, none of which are dependent on the art.
Saying aesthetics aren't important is like saying cinematography and production isn't important to a movie's artistic quality. It's fucking ridiculous. MGS2 is fucking ugly. It makes no attempt at applying any artistic principles even in spite of its graphical fidelity.
>>345356396
See? You're not trying to refute anything. You're trying to make me look like a lesser person. You said I was dumb. You said people would think I'm retarded. I respond with an insult of a similar caliber while also elaborating and you're trying to make this look like I'm just calling people faggots and retards for disagreeing with me.
I'm not. Disagree with me. Prove me wrong. But you're not. You're just attacking what I say, but not trying to refute anything. And I think we're just a few replies too deep to pull a "It's not worth it" at this point.
Xenoge- oh, no visual novels, ok
>>345356087
Well if that guy was really you, no big deal.
It only made me sad that people would react that way against Japanese reading gamers or even the thought of learning something other than the big E and Chinese. Not the first time.
I try to avoid the whole "hurr durr EOP get out" type, if you ever find 4chan posts like that it's fine to shitpost them. But I assure you there are people like me that just want to share their gaming experience.
>>345353382
Well when fn@f,undertale, yandere sim and others exist it's hard to say mgs is the worst.
Besides not everyone sings its praises.
In my opinion the series has interesting story concepts,but I think the goofyness added into it stops it from getting too pretentious.
Define well written.
![hqdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/XzUgiYH.jpg "hqdefault[1].jpg")
>>345357171
>>345357080
Pretentious is a buzzword used by the thousands of users here who have never had a single art class.
>>345357171
Literally "things I like" according to /v/.
>>345352475
Literally any sort of discussion of any sort of medium is fucking opinion based you idiot. Have you never had a subjective discussion in your life?
suikoden series
trails in the sky trilogy
xenogears
nier
>>345356857
I said you win, your post is entirely right. I cannot refute you. You should say that Bob's Burgers thing to everyone.
I don't understand why you're so upset. You have bested me, and I have conceded. All I want now is for you to promise me that every time you see a Ghost Trick thread, or even hear someone mentioning it in real life, you announce that all Ghost Trick fans are insane and tell them about the Bob's Burgers thing. That's all I ask.
Now go, go spread the word.
>>345357282
>art class
Are you a retarded person?
Wh-when did the MGS series suddenly become poorly written?
>>345356827
Different guy here.
>MGS2 is fucking ugly. It makes no attempt at applying any artistic principles even in spite of its graphical fidelity.
Please elaborate.
phoenix wright
but it's practically a visual novel so..
>>345354957
>Ghost Trick's gameplay is boring, repetitive,
How? The mechanics change and progress into new challenges as the game goes on.
>Until that point, there is no way the player can make any predictions about the game's story that is based on any concrete information given to them
But you can, the main character has these weird handicaps that seemingly have no explanation until the twist explains them perfectly. It was perfectly possible to see the twist coming too once you learn about it.
>You're kept completely in the dark until the end so it can all be revealed as some grand "twist", when the reality is that you were too stupid to see that nothing is as it seems
See above.
> There's no way to figure out how the ghost mechanic actually works until it is explained.
Which is early on. At that moment you could tell explain why did your character get those handicaps if you paid attention and noticed the cat.
> It's a fantasy element with no rules with any exceptions that can be explained away.
Except the twist is something as simple as ''you were actually x'' which actully explains all your handicaps perfectly, it's nothing that even requires knowing how the ghost mechanic works, though as said the game does explain it.
>>345357371
I think what he means is that a lot of people here just go "I liked this it was good".
An opinion can't be right or wrong but I think in this thread it's appropriate to back it up with some sort of analysis and objective reasoning as to why you came to that conclusion.
For example (not an actual opinion): I think the sci-fi genre ruins Deus Ex. Sci-fi is over done and cliche at this point.
Deus Ex being a sci-fi game is an objective statement. The rest is how "my" opinions relate to that objective statement.
>>345357520
No, I'm an educated person who understands the fundamentals of art. I'm pretty sure most people who attend universities have to take at least one art course.
It doesn't take a genius to appreciate art instead of immediately dismissing it as pretentious.
>>345357628
>>345357171
- no plot holes or ass pulls
- good pacing
- characters are written in ways that suit the story and have personalities
Examples like that
>>345352310
>>345357965
That's a VR mission, shitposter.
>>345348576
Who gets to decide what game is well written?
>>345357818
Do you have a blog? I'd love to read more.
>>345357018
Kek
I'm actually playing through it for my first time and I'm really digging it.
And it's definitely one of my favorite games now. I haven't gotten to the second disc though which people say is where everything weakened due to budget mismanagement and ffviii.
>>345351587
>>345350592
MGS2 is "Babiest first high level philosphy on spread of information"
Its not well written.
Its done with "post modern" writing. So: Most of the "writing" comes from overlapping scripts progressing at the same time. Most of what it hits well, is by compelete accident.
It can be compared to a Murakami story. The idea is to have 5-6 plots, and let them play out with 1 character, at the same time, scene by scene, and then sneak in the sex scene.
I appriciate that Japs do good "post modern" writing. But its not "well written". Its just a lot of random stuff thrown together and it hits the wall.
Radiant Historia
>>345358106
The lighting and shit isn't bad, but it's the same overdone dark realism as countless other games.
It's unattractive, especially on older tech.
>>345357501
I'm not upset. You've made a claim that I don't think is correct and I'm explaining why. That's the reasonable thing to do. That's what reasonable people do. An unreasonable thing to do would be doing something like saying "I can't believe you believe this. You're so dumb." and not providing any reason. That's an unreasonable person. That's a person not opening their statements up to any response or criticism.
>>345350592
MGS is literally how not to do exposition: The game. The cut scenes are so anime it hurts.
>>345350705
I wasn't ready for the twist at the end
>>345358316I may have called it a visual novel, but it is actually my favorite game. Hope you're having fun anon
>>345358291
I'm not in liberal arts, so I don't have one.
>>345358431
>The cut scenes are so anime it hurts
Not anime, intense stage play, without all the downsides of human stunt actors limitations.
Its the "core of anime", even if its forgotten often.
>>345358125
As long as it's not written by Anthony Burch
>>345357282
I just think that as a game it can never really be recognized as a certain level of art because at the end of the day it's just a glorified toy.
It tries to cover some philosophical themes but honestly those will always and up second to it's core gameplay,because no one will sit through a game of the gameplay is dull.
>>345355817
I don't like Braid that much, but I agree.
Pretentiousness is completely irrelevant. In the end, art is what you want art to be. Someone can tell you "this is pretentious", but if you still consider it art anyway, neither is wrong.
And after all, if we accept the term pretentious, that also means we're accepting authorial intent, which I believe, is somewhat irrelevant as well.
>>345354957
It's almost like ghosts aren't fantasy, fucking idiot. I also think themeteoritething was a bit of an asspull, but I still liked it and it's one of my favourite stories in any game.
>>345357432
Don't know about Suikoden and TitS (yet), but Xenogears and Nier are definitely one of the best written games.
>>345356827
>It makes no attempt at applying any artistic principles
Arsenal Gear level does, considering how similar it looks to the VR missions. There's quite a bit of visual narrative and symbolism there that support the themes of the entire game. Still, I think MGS2 is art but for the story and the ideas it tries to communicate.
But there are infinite ways of trying to "become" art and MGS2 has his. Not all of them should necessarily copy the way Braid tries to.
>>345358758
Why can't the core gameplay be artistic?
>>345358425
When I learned that there was a concept to draw the textures in shinkawa's artstyle I was dissapointed.
Something like that could've been so unique.
>>345357791
The handicaps don't work as a twist because the characters are just as unsure whether or not they're caused by his ability and whether or not its partial memory loss. It really could be anything. There's no way to actually prove it before the game ends. There's no event that occurs that can only be explained by how the game ends. It could easily be explained by the mechanic working slightly differently than it does. Plus, the opening cinematic literally opens with spotlights on Yomiel's body going "That's me. Look at that. I died."
Also, yeah it makes sense a cat can't read, I guess. But it's fine that they can understand and speak English/Japanese perfectly? Well, in this universe they can. But they can't read. That's too unrealistic. Obviously.
>>345358486
I am, I haven't been this into a game's lore and stuff in a while.
I keep searching the web and the occasional threads here for any more info about its development since I find that kind of stuff to be interesting.
>>345358430
Just promise me, Anon.
>>345357791
>''you were actually x'' which actully explains all your handicaps perfectly
If that where the case, the game mechanics would need to change slightly depending on your performance.
They don't.
These threads are retarded because we are incapable of having a real discussion on it. Until there is a general consensus by universities on what constitutes good writing, we are stuck in this format:
>Honest answer
>Reply: LMAO NICE MEME
You retards aren't capable of developing your own conversations, so you need Universities to do it for you. You're going to look so silly when Gone Home is declared a landmark in story telling. Enjoy your squabbling.
>>345359525
You're still talking about me and not the game. You've already proven me right.
>>345359659
The issue with Gone Home is that it didn't need to be a game. It probably just as well could have been a live-action movie.
Its gameplay is minimal and carries no artistic significance, and it's short.
>>345359309
>Also, yeah it makes sense a cat can't read, I guess. But it's fine that they can understand and speak English/Japanese perfectly? Well, in this universe they can. But they can't read. That's too unrealistic. Obviously.
Holy shit I can't deal with this autism.
Missile the dog also understood english and communicate. Did you turn the game off in anger at that point because that made no sense?
If you could deal with Missile "speaking" then the cat understanding english shouldn't bother you either.
>>345359326
You should give Perfect Works a read after you finish the game, anon
>>345359659
>Having a converstion IRL about something with someone who thinks it's bad
>All their responses reveal they either misunderstood it or didn't even try to understand
>MFW
>>345358996
Well I don't think it's possible to have much freedom with gameplay development.
You can try to incorporate some type of deeper meaning into gameplay but it will always be bound by its main function,to entertain.
So if you want to throw art in there it becomes really difficult and alters the actual gameplay aspect.
And then there's also the fact that because games are bound by their genre it becomes even harder to experiment with them because then it stops being what it says out to be.
The best way to include art into the game is usually through story and visuals anyway, it allows for way more freedom.
Although it would be nice if a game could somehow find a way to make its gameplay send a message to its players.
>>345359659
>Until there is a general consensus by universities on what constitutes good writing
The advantage of the media integrates the advantages of good writing. This is objective right, with no room for argument.
Which means:
1. If it could be done as a straight movie/book/screenplay adaptions with removal/alteration of gameplay elements, its SHIT from a interactive writing perspective
2. A lot of games is "garbage", simply because plot is a side element
3. A lot of games is "garbage" because while the plot is integrated into the gameplay, its entry level and under developed
>>345359921
>It probably just as well could have been a live-action movie.
Oh yes, because a 10 minute movie of someone rummaging through some fag's belongings would really be good.
Gone home didn't need to be anything.
>>345360170
A game doesn't have to be "fun."
>>345359729
>You've already proven me right.
I've already outright told you several times that I think you're right and won the argument.
Your ability to pick up on subtleties is probably what lead you to make your astounding Bob's Burgers comparison. Never stop being amazing.
>>345348576
silent hill 2
dark souls
>>345360242
If I remember right it was more on the order of 2 hours (or 1 minute if you're speedrunning), but yeah, it didn't need to exist.
>>345360083
I saw a few of it's pages(specifically hear linearts and the timeline) it had some cool stuff,so I'll probably find a way to obtain a copy.
After Xenogears I'm looking to go through the other games.
I've heard mixed views in saga, but it looks pretty interesting too so I'll probably check that out in a year or so.
>>345360045
I am not worried about the game being unrealistic. I'm not upset that cats and dogs can speak. I'm pointing out an inconsistency in this game's "grand twist". Everyone points out how it all makes sense that you can't read because you're a cat, but forgets that this is a universe where cats and dogs can communicate with humans perfectly. That's inconsistent writing.
>>345360294
Don't get so far into your own shitposting that you start to eat your own bullshit. It's dangerous.
>>345359659
The other issue is tons of people disagree on what constitutes "Good" writing in the first place, often relegating it to discussing dialogue or prose but not story structure, pacing, or thematic content.
I've played games with terrible or even no dialogue that I still thought were well-written because of how the game and story worked together to create a narrative flow that made sense, but here you'll just have people quote some bad line that's since become memetic as if that devalues the whole game.
>>345360524
I'm in the same boat, haven't played Saga yet but i plan on doing so, even though i don't expect much from it.
>>345360281
Then it's no longer a game and just becomes another art piece.
I'm my opinion I think it's best when a game can subtly sneak those artistic brushstrokes throughout an entertaining experience.
It proves the creator understands both and can add even more merit to a game while encouraging multiple playthroughs.
It's useless if it's all just an artpiece you look at once then walk away from.
But if it utilizes both then it can live on longer and give incentive to view it again unlike most "artistic" games that just end up being played through once only to be forgotten and brought up in online arguments.
>>345360567
>the animals can understand words but can't read or write, this writing sucks!
I've wew'd some lads in my time but lad... this is some wew right here.
>>345348576
Trick question. Games can't be written. Just designed and played. Anything with writing is some combination of interactive or non-interactive novel or movie.
>>345361486
How did I forget about this, I can't believe I got rid of it.
This game is spec ops done right and then some.
>>345348576
I generally like japanese games, but none of them are well written. Nothing outside of Europe/America is well-written. Only Europe bothered to actually get good at characterisation and plot-writing. You play Jap games for other things, like fun.
>>345352698
Killer7 has good moments. When japs limit themselves to mere moment-writing, and also borrow very liberally from westerners, the product turns out okayish, but schizophrenic.
>>345361310
It's inconsistent when the game's twist relies upon that logic. A major story element is embedded in it That's where the problem lies. If your statement was taken in a vacuum, yes, that would be absurd. There's nothing wrong with a universe where animals can speak but can't read. But when you hide it behind a mystery that a player is trying to solve given the in-universe logic, that's silly. It's a mystery. I'm trying to figure things out. A good twist doesn't rely on fantasy logic. Or at the very least, a good twist doesn't rely on fantasy logic that isn't established or indirectly demonstrated to the player.
>>345362025
Killer7 was supposed to feel schizophrenic.
>>345357581
After MGS4
>>345361763
Right on. 1's good too, but 2's the real shit.
Forgot this was a jap games thread tho, whoops.
>>345352714
The Discovery of Slowness
A Maggot
Disgrace
>>345354954
>how many punchable faces can we fit within 4 square inches
>>345350592
Mgs2 fags believe this
>>345348576
First 4 Silent Hill games. Really subtly written those games are, and really well too.
>>345348576
Persona 3.
You might not like the content story. But it was well written.
Luigi's Mansion
Xenoblade Chronicales
>>345362135
Reverse-correct, the writer knew the product would feel schizophrenic and so deliberately structured everything to account for that. It's a stroke of genius, part of what makes K7 so great. They turned something that would otherwise be a bug into a feature.
>>345362356
I only played YN for the first time last year. Not a bad metaphor for rape.
>>345362620
It's true so fuck off nigger.
>>345362930
So are you a believer then in the idea that Killer7's story came first and the theme followed after?
>>345360782
Ssh, promise me.
>>345353254
The people who hate MGS2 are not MGS fans, child.
>>345363845
Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.
>>345364625
Is there no end to your wisdom?
Jesus Christ, if multiple people are really offering a MGS game as the best example of writing I think the answer is that there aren't any well-written Japanese games.
>>345364763
You're not so much dedicated as you are trapped in this character you've decided to be come. Just say "Fuck off" and get it over with. I'm not sure what you're going for with this string of sarcastic nonsense. I'd guess you were trying to prove a point, but you never actually tried to argue or prove anything to begin with. Just calling names and not taking what you can dish out.
>>345363728
That's not even wrong.
>>345365714
I didn't say it was.
There are two schools of writing through with those two points swapped around in order of priority and what follows. I'm guessing which school you (or that guy) belongs to.
I love that everyone that mentions Nier gets ignored because theres a good argument within the story against any shit you toss at it writing wise
>>345366196
what
>>345365689
You keep wanting to believe I'm some sort of jester or shitposter. I'll admit I got sarcastic, but that's all I could in the face of your stern oh so serious tone you picked up when it suited you. You threw a shit into the thread and then put your "real debate" hat on the moment your strawman was ruined. Remember, you love to post in this way that implies superiority, but you started this debate with a literal strawman argument.
But point is, I'm not joking. I seriously DO want you to say that thing about Bob's Burgers every single time you see Ghost Trick mentioned. You can get stuffy as fuck if you want and reply over and over to say "ho hum I am actually clever and you are silly" but I mean it. Do it.
At the end of the day, I get to leave the thread knowing I don't have autism. You don't have that luxury. I genuinely sympathize. That must suck, it must. So I'm happy to say you win and I lose in this exchange. Hold on to this victory for all it's worth. And promise me.
>>345364865
MGS changed the medium
>>345368762
MGS is a good series, I am not arguing that at all. I am a MGS fan. But I would never argue that any of the games were "well-written". It's just cheesy and fun.
>>345366970
I legitimately dislite Ghost Trick's story yet no matter how civil or legitimate my complaints are, I get the same hostile response. You're just proving that. In this insanely bizzare way. For whatever reason you immediately ignored everything and tried to turn it back around on me as a person rather than my arguments. Hanging on to an analogy that I never stood by (that you never pointed out) yet still regarded as the epitome of my argument for whatever reason. You had every chance to defend Ghost Trick. You were immediately given the upper hand. From your point of view, you were given a nonsensical analogy that you could easily deconstruct, but you chose to do nothing with it. You chose to do nothing with the arguments. You sat behind with the only intention of trying to make yourself look superior. That's just lame. It's an anonymous message board. What good does repeating "You're dumb. You have autism. Your argument is dumb."? There's virtually no censorship on this website. You can say whatever you want. On that basis, those claims mean literally nothing. They're nonsense claims. Just a feeble attempt at trying to demonstrate a non-existant hierarchy. The only thing that matters is whether or not you can salvage some evidence or logic behind a claim.
I'll start with the basic form of my claim. If you attack it, or disagree then I'll elaborate. I'm not going to explain something to nobody. Plus, it's only fair to elaborate. It's not fair to just respond "No u". Which is why it doesn't make sense that you claim you're not just a shitposter. Because you're not trying at all. You're not putting any effort into anything. What is the purpose of this board then? Do you want to go back to when I said Ghost Trick fans were insane? Pretend that was all I said then. You said that was dumb, I said you're insane. There. That's the ideal level of discussion you're aiming for here.
>>345366149
>I didn't say it was
Um.. yes? Of course you didn't say YOU were wrong. I don't think you understand the phrase "not even wrong". I'm telling you the concept you're applying is meaningless and irrelevant.
k
donkey
>>345369441
>Hanging on to an analogy that I never stood by
You're not standing by it? You're taking that point back?
Your hangups about Ghost Trick's story boiled down to finding it inconsistent that a cat could understand language but not read or write. That, to me, is fucking stupid. And to dismiss the entire game as having bad writing based on something like that is outrageous. But I'll grant you, it's just an opinion, and you're entitled to it.
Your problem is you have autism. I see it in your arguments for why Ghost Trick (a game about ghosts that travel through phonelines and control time) isn't "logical" enough for you, and I see it in your desperate need to argue objectively with FACTS over a discussion which is ultimately down to taste.
You say Ghost Trick has bad writing and demand I refute it. I don't bother because I can't refute your opinion. And you just say over and over again "prove me wrong" like I can whip out a book where it says Ghost Trick has objectively good writing. I can't, so I didn't waste my time. I just wound you up instead. And predictably, you took every single pinch of bait I gave you. Like a true autist. All I had to say was "promise me" and off you'd go again.
donkey kong
>>345350592
>>345350753
>>345358431
>>345362620
Contrarian fags.
>>345348576
Name one anything that is well written.
Note that I said anything.
>>345371841
>It was my plan all along
That's cool, man. Cool.
But, again, I'm not pointing out that the universe is illogical or having an issue with a universe being illogical. My problem with the game's grand twist is that it relies on that inconsistent logic. I said before, it's fine for a game to have fantasy logic. Ace Attorney does it and those games are good. Still, some of the less popular cases in those games are the ones that rely too heavily on the spirit medium stuff Maya does. And rightfully so. When a game wants me to solve a mystery, it should present to me all the rules beforehand. It doesn't have to give me a rulesheet and explain everything, per se. It can explain things through proper storytelling and demonstration. Ghost Trick doesn't do that and keeps it a secret about how the entire ghost ability works. One character understands it perfectly and doesn't fill in all the holes until the end. Those holes cannot be filled by the player. The mechanic is a fantasy mechanic. It's rules are decided entirely by the writer. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. But when you want me to solve a problem that involves a fantasy mechanic, I should have a good understanding of how it works. But part of the game's mystery is figuring out how the ghost mechanic actually works. But that's impossible. You're asking me to guess how you made your fantasy mechanic work. Then when you tell me and go "What a twist, huh?" it's not. There's no way for me to know. I have to rely entirely on you, the writer, to clue me in on this.
The same with the talking animals. Nothing wrong with talking animals. You want talking animals in your story, go for it. Its fiction. But the twist rests upon that logic. Logic that you have created in your head and withheld from the reader. Revealing the logic of that game's universe is not a twist. That's you explaining something I didn't know before. I don't make assumptions about how it works because there's no way for me to know.
>>345373760
I haven't read them but I've never seen them in a store and I used to work at Chapters during Uni. They probably suck.
>>345373162
>autism
Yeah I heard you the first five times you said you had it.
'Sup.
>>345373162
When was the last time you went to a party?
You seem like one unbearable motherfucker
>>345374241
Like I said earlier, you're not really getting anywhere. But I guess you've convinced yourself you've gotten something worth getting, if that's worth anything.
>>345375008
At least I was kind enough to say you won. You still have a stick up your ass.
>>345350592
It's shame people are too simple to understand that MGS 2 is Evangelion simplified.
By extension, people are too fucking stupid to understand Eva either.
>>345351078
Deus Ex
>>345348576
Dance Dance Revolution
>>345375286
No, I'm fine, but you're back to just going at me when you did try to respond. You misinterpreted my issues with the game so I elaborated and that means I have autism?
>>345376115
I already said you're right, many times. What exactly do you want?
I think you have autism because even when the person you're arguing with says "okay, you're right" you continue to demand to be refuted.
You keep replying. What, ideally, would you like me to say? What would sate you when I already told you that you won the argument?
>>345371895
CG CG CG CG
>>345376791
You already know what's next.
>>345377750
I regret that we meet in this way. You and I are of a kind. In a different reality, I could have called you friend.
Goodnight.
>>345378056
I don't think so. Your values and perceptions are inappropriately placed.
>>345378320
A complete faggot until the end. I notice you didn't answer >>345374648s question.
I actually do have one final thought, which just occurred to me, and I love it.
I was wrong about you being right. You're wrong about Ghost Trick, and the world is on my side.
You're alone with your bizarre interpretation of why the game is badly written. Nobody agrees with you. And Ghost Trick will continue to be regarded as a well-written videogame. And your massive autistic blogposts about why it's bad will continue being dismissed as the total bullshit they are.
I love it. And you can come back with another glib little sneerpost and it won't mean shit. Nobody in the world is ever going to see it other than me, and I'm already laughing.
>>345379071
It's a bit immature to find validation only if someone agrees with you. This place would be awful otherwise. I think you know that. We'd just be Reddit.
>>345375596
People thought Eva was good back in the 90s, now almost everybody agrees it's shit.
>>345379414
>immature
Mate, true immaturity is being that guy who sits on /v/ screaming "BUT IT'S SHIT!" over and over when not even fucking /v/ agrees that it's shit.
>>345379750
I never said it was shit. I said I didn't like it and I explained why. This is a video game discussion board after all. I think repeating "Autism" and "retarded" over and over is a bit worse.
>>345375596
Can you explain how MGS is Eva?
Not disagreeing. Curious.
I can't even name a single game with a good story. I mean there's stories that are good for a video game story. But it's always gotta be qualified. It'll never stack up to other media. That's not a games strength. Games are good at letting the player write the story. Movies and books can't do that. Well there's choose your own adventure books and that's the same deal.
Anyway Japanese games usually have an especially shitty story.
>>345374181
Nice logic.
>>345381242
>Protagonist that's pathetic weak fag as a selfinsert for the player because director hates them, until finding himself in the end and gets congratulated for it.
>Human Insrtumentality is just reduced to globalism (More of that in MGSV, where zero is SEELE; "make mankind whole again" not by reducing them to primordial soup, but removing every sense of identity, "race, language tribal affiliation even our faces will be irrelevant" through PARASHITES)
>patriot AI being God who decides "objective truths" for everyone
>GET IN THE FUCKING ROBOT
(I don't want to do the mission anymore ;__;
YOU WILL DO THE MISSION)
A few others too.
>>345379071
That literally looks like a CGI gun imposed on her finger
Earthbound has a nice story
Mother 3's is ok too but I don't like it as much as Earthbound
>>345356758
Tell me about the moon man.
Why does he wear the mask?
>>345380109
When was the last time you went to a party?
>>345384226
It's been too long. I'm not as cool as everyone here on /v/.
>>345356827
And Braid is forgotten while MGS 2 still garners discussion 15 years later.
Speaks volumes really.
Fire Emblem 4
>>345381832
Western games have shitty stories as well, especially compared to other media. So fuck off.
>>345362025
>Hey guys when Japs structure shit to my liking it's pretty good!
Fucking eat shit
Xenogears
NieR
Lost OdysseyTales of the Abyss
Silent Hill 2and 3
Xenogears and Trails in the Sky
>>345348576
>Japanese
>Good writing
Pick one, Jap media is trash
>>345348576
Kingdom Hearts
>>345351078
planescape torment
>>345386282
>Tales of the Abyss
fuck off lol
>>345386054
Racist.
