You literally cannot play the game without the island; it's entirely about observing from different angles. It has perhaps the greatest level design in any game I've ever seen. Everything is so articulate and perfectly positioned it's surreal. The way you have to figure out the rules of the game on your own by using subtle clues and individual intuition? This blows Braid, Portal, and Talos Principle out the fucking water. And REALLY, Talos Principle is 2deep4u philosophical texbook shit NOT this.
>>343836892
I agree. Anyone who dislikes this game, is probably too dumb to get it
>>343837532
>>343836892
visual novels aren't games gtfo
I liked it desu.
>>343837532
There's nothing to "get"
People just went in, played for 25 minutes, got sick of the puzzle panel system, and never really let the game evolve into what it ultimately is with respect to the environmental elements.
I don't think that's a terrible thing, but it's the sort of thing that if it didn't take almost all game to slowly train the player to see the world that way, it would have been a boring game.
You have to enjoy the puzzle panel gameplay on its own enough for the game to keep you playing until it can reveal what it's really about, gameplay-wise.
>>343838047
How is this a visual novel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0
>>343838204
What I don't understand is how people en masse can blatantly runaround here lying about the ame and calling it objectively shit meanwhile ignoring everything it des perfectly JUST because they personally find it "boring".
And here we come to the point. "boring". What the fuck does that mean and how do you objectively quantify it? I find dark souls's hacky slashy bullshit boring and repetitive. Is it? I don't know, I can never stomach past an hour of the shit before I get bored of it. It's same with jrpg's. I find those boring and my preferred genres are usually puzzle, tower defense, racing, arcade, and sport but you know what? People will tell me iRacing is boring. They will lie and tell me NBA 2K13 or World Soccer Winning Eleven 6 or MADDEN NFL 2005 are obectively shit because they're sports games meanwhile ignoring all of their depth, content, controls, and diversity.
>>343838682
Why don't you actually type out and discuss your points as to why the game is "bad" to you instead of posting a random guy's youtube video as if his "opinion" is some objective fact. Actually ARGUE instead of regurgitating..
>>343839117
Welcome to /v/
All the games you like are shit
>>343839334
(You)
>>343839117
I mean, consider its "genre".
It's among other games which are about solving "puzzles" involving figuring out how to use the mechanics to navigate the environment. Portal, Talos, hell even Braid and other puzzle platformers do this.
The Witness sort of sets itself up as a game in this style, but then it's just an environment full of phone-game-tier mazes.
I can understand the disappointment.
It takes the game a shitload of hours to very slowly tip its hand and reveal just how much the environment is really a part of the game, because it's supposed to be about missing obvious things that you didn't know how to see, and then later realizing just how crazy it is that you ever missed them to start with.
If you were disappointed with its presentation and content at the outset, I can understand not having the patience to wait for that extremely slow reveal
Witness is a puzzle game with nothing else to it.
No story.
No real environment since there is no background to anything.
It's just witty puzzles. Nowhere near the hype.
>>343840085
>but then it's just an environment full of phone-game-tier mazes
How?? You have to use environmental clues, perspective shifts, and even figure out the rules to alot of the puzzles, and you're free to do them ALL at your own pace in peaceful but empty anachronistic semi-post-apocalyptic island that overall adds to the theme of epiphany. It's intelligent, cautious nonlinear game design and it's sharp, particular, with no wasted space. Everything is placed in the right spot with context and reason.
>>343840982
>No story
Games aren't supposed to have stories, but this game implements it in a smart way by making it self-inserting, interpretive, and thematic with what the gameplay comprises of.
>>343840085
>It's among other games which are about solving "puzzles" involving figuring out how to use the mechanics to navigate the environment. Portal, Talos, hell even Braid and other puzzle platformers do this.
No they do not. I've played those games. They flat out tell you the controls and mechanics in tutorials. The Witness does everything worldlessly all up for the player to figure out.
>>343840982
The fact that the story in this game is just sort of in the background, never shoved in your face is one of the best things about it. If I wanted plot I would read a book.
>>343836892
It would have been a good game
for $10
>>343839117
You sound like an insecure kid. In case you haven't realized most discussion about video games is completely subjective.
>meanwhile ignoring everything it des perfectly JUST because they personally find it "boring".
Being boring and repetitive is a huge flaw and pretty graphics can't carry the game alone.
>>343843130
How are iRacing, Madden NFL 2005, The Witness, and World Soccer Winning Eleven 6 boring and repetitive?
Dark Souls is just slashing with a sword in the same slow clunky patterns, rolling away from telegraphed attacks, and then grinding stats. That's not fun nor interesting.
>>343836892
It wasn't that great desu
>>343843871
Are you actually asking me how solving a million line puzzles on a lifeless monitor is boring and repetitive?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLp_Hh6DKWc
>>343844295
And are you REALLY implying killing things with a sword in the same few repetitive ways is fun?
>>343841397
It sure is blowing in here
>>343845389
anti-intellectualism at its finest
>>343845720
I like his games, but that's a really good way to sound like Blow.
Witness is shit
>wow the tree is a connect the dots puzzle this game really speaks to me john blow is a genius here's $40
>>343846154
You do realize that's basically a tutorial puzzle
>>343845720
You probably think gone home is a good game too.
>>343846451
>25+ hour puzzle game
>90~ minute young adult novel software
>>343836892
Dumbest post in months, somehow manages to be wrong about everything, not even good bait. Talos Principle makes The Witness look so bad in every aspect, it's not even funny.
>>343836892
>The Witness
>there's no crime scene and you're not really seeing anything amazing
It's got levar burton
it can't be bad
I'm interested but it was only down to $32 during the summer sale and 25 hours doesn't seem like a lot.
Meanwhile I'm put 30 hours and growing into Hexcells Infinite and I got that for less than $2.
The Witness isn't bad but you're really underplaying how much fucking time you spend with the panel puzzles in the game. They make up the majority of the playthrough, with the ones incorporated into the island being more like post-game challenges than anything.
There's occasional brilliant puzzles like the courtyard maze area where everything comes together perfectly but then you're spending hours on boring shit like those puzzles where you need to stand in the right spot for the reflection to give you the answer or the tetris pieces that get old instantly but never go away.
>>343841397
Actually it's just a clusterfuck of simple repetetive puzzles. No, drawing lines in the environment doesn't count as variation. The game is what happens when you take one shitty idea and push it until you run out of money.
>>343841397
the game is only fun until you find out the rules, then it's a literally tedious chores.
>>343838682
>i couldnt figure out some of these puzzles
>they must be unfair
witness haters everyone
>>343838682
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZokQov_aH0
This was an amazing video and attack on what seems like a godawful game.
>>343848409
>a godawful game
Why is it godawful? because you're too dumb to figure out the puzzles?
>>343850102
The video pretty well explains why.
>>343841601
>games aren't supposed to have stories
Says who?
>>343850572
Yes, he explains saying that he didn't pick up on many of the cues, therefore, the game was bad because it was too "alien."
Are you in that same boat? You think the game is bad because you are too dumb and feel intellectually challenged?
>>343836892
>>343839117
>>343841397
>>343841864
>>343843871
>>343844860
>>343845720
>sucking Johnathan Blow's dick electronically and unironically on a cantonese abacus tech support forum in this, the year of our Lord Two THousand and Sixteen
>not even mentioning the name of our Prophet and Savior Daisuke Amaya or his greatest contribution to our industry, hobby, and lifestyle
you are pretentious, hipster trash. You are an outsider that craves acceptance but will never belong. The games you like are shit. Your taste is horrible and our administrator Hiroshima Nagasaki will eternally regret that ignorant bytes of data you wasted e-fellating one of the worst indie "devs" of our time. I wish it were 100 years ago, so that you could be drawn and quartered.
Faggot tranny fuckface.
>>343850879
Says /v/. Cinematics and emphasis on story have ruined modern gaming. It's good to get back to the basic routes and reinvigorate the tradition of letting the player figure out the rules instead of treating them like a baby.
>>343842332
I thought $20 would have been reasonable. Braid was a decent game for $10, but this was light years ahead of braid
>>343851921
>Daisuke Amaya
>Good
He's a talentless hack. Takumi Naramura is the true genius of the industry, providing the REAL greatest contribution to our industry, hobby, and lifestyle.
>>343851921
The Witness is to video games like Stalker is to film; it utilizes the mechanics of its medium to the fullest breaking new ground in what is capable.
Why are you afraid of being challenged? Johnathan Blow is reinvigorating this stale medium. I would think game enthusiasts would be optimistic and thankful for such a great contribution, but instead those emotions are replaced with hate and spite.
Why is this?
>>343853047
keep panhandling for (You)s, you filthy nigger.
>>343853047
>breaking new ground in what is capable
*capable with these mechanics artistically in provocation of emotion and depth
>>343851253
>Are you in that same boat? You think the game is bad because you are too dumb and feel intellectually challenged?
Not that anon, and I don't really care about whatever Youtube video you're talking about but fuck off with this garbage.
The Witness was a game that relies on purely visual communication for directing the player. It does this while also being about abstract line puzzles using extremely basic symbols and environmental cues in a fairly big open space. If many players are unable to understand the rules of some puzzles at a glance because they look like they should be solvable, or they happen to be missing the exact perspective you need to look at a panel for it to explain what the hell you're doing, or because the rules for the puzzles need to be brute forced if you're not picking up on one some of these squares are intended to represent, then that's the games fault for poor communication on the developers part.
It's not a case of "lol get good asshole," because most players can solve a majority of the puzzles in the game with no issues as long as they understand the mechanics behind them, it's a problem of players struggling to find those guidelines. Classic adventure games and older retro games are criticized all the time for not properly communicating their rules and mechanics, why is Jonathan Blow exempt from the exact same criticisms when players are having difficulty figuring out deciphering what a triangle panel wants them to do because the instructions are hidden away in a distant corner of the island?
And for the record I beat the game, got into the secret challenge cave and probably ended up finishing 600 or so puzzles. It's good, but not immune to criticism because it presents itself in an artsy way.
>>343852550
You don't pay standard price for a Criterion or Kino Lorber bluray. You shouldn't pay standard price for the video game equivalent.
Blow worked tirelessly to amass such a thoroughly complex connected world with detail and alignment not seen before.
You have to pay top dollar for art.
>there are grown adults who defend puzzle games as anything other than grandma distraction material
Don't you have some cookies to be baking?
>>343854012
There is no clear cut answer as to whether they're well-communicated or not as it's subjective.
But I feel this sprawling ambition and arduous attention to detail should be thoroughly commended and not derided immaturely.
>>343836892
It's not a sudoku book. It's the closest thing to vidyakino.
See, OP, I really liked the Witness from what it was: an example in pure visual comunication. The puzzles were fun and it succedes in finding a way to make you learn as you play.
My main gripe is a bit of an unfair one, but try to understand me. The Witness is not Riven. Everything The Witness did, also did Riven decades ago, and better. The island in TW is surreal and videogamey, it only exists for the sake of the puzzles. The puzzles themselves are nonsensical from a 'story' point of view because in reality nobody would use puzzle panels to create bridges over a forest or just activate a laser pointer. Riven had a big and complex island and while yes, it had puzzles they were mostly there to teach you about the world. It was less about solving puzzles, and more about learning how people lived there ('How does this machine work?', 'What is this system of pipes?', 'Wait, is that how the D'ni use numerals?'). Everything in Riven was so perfectly connected and created a realistic place with rules you understood not through trial and error on puzzle panels but because they actual made real, physical sense. And whlie doing this, you also learnt about the story.
And in the end, while the main objective of Riven is solving the Fire Salts puzzle (which is on a big grid with marbles), the significance that there's beyond the steps required to put that into motion will forever be more interesting, complexely woven and magistrally directed than the overall aura of pretentiousness that The Witness carries with it.
>>343836892
This is good bait. The PS4 in the filename was a nice touch. The Witness is a slightly above average game. A 7/10 on a grading scale and a 5.5/10 on a 1 being bad 10 being amazing scale. You're really stretching if you think it's actually innovating in any way. There isn't a single idea in The Witness that hasn't been done before.
>>343854375
>as it's subjective.
If its a consistent problem that keeps getting brought up by players then it's not working. It means that the tactics Blow is using to communicate those rules either aren't as effective or universal as they should be or the game needed a more linear progression system to ensure that all players were working with the same tool set of knowledge when they got into a particular area. You shouldn't need to be in a developers head to understand how certain things work, and while this is obviously much harder to accomplish in a complex game without any worded tutorials like The Witness it makes it all the more important to make sure you nail it.
This isn't a subjective topic.
>But I feel this sprawling ambition and arduous attention to detail should be thoroughly commended and not derided immaturely.
More ambition also means more room to fail or not live up to said ambition.
The Witness sold itself as being a big, ambitious game for intelligent people with hours of content that will make an impact on the industry. This means that it should be scrutinized to see what works and what doesn't, not applauded just because it happened.
True Ludo to be honest.
>>343855315
There is absolutely nothing unfair about that complaint, since it explains exactly why The Witness is an objective failure. You aren't pushing the medium if you can't even match what came before you.
>>343855315
I disagree and don't think the Witness is faulted in any way by being more surreal because it is the intention. I believe it to be more in tune with the themes The Witness is trying to convey, and the world, same with the puzzles, are alien and cryptic. The games are similar in goals but different in execution. The Witness is more subtle and interpretive meanwhile Riven is grounded and contextual. I prefer the prior because it felt more emotionally resonant with it being more focused on portraying the themes of isolation, overcoming of adversity in tumultuous times, and epiphany.
>>343855315
Good point. Witness maximum abstraction of the puzzles killed it - no immersion, no variety, no fun.
>>343856062
I can understand that, that's why I said my point was a bit on the unfair side. The Witness has great highlights and offers pure and simple joy and satisfaction as you learn how to manage those new and complex situations. It's also a great achievement in how much they managed to do with so little (there are overall very few rules and all puzzles are just mazes. And yet...) and there was always a "Ah, Ha!" factorThe '3d' puzzles on columns at the end, the soundwave ones, the entire color section.
They both have a place to exist, for sure. It is by no means a bad game.
>>343855497
But you see, it works for me. Not all humans are wired the same. The picking up of certain cues lends itself to a certain mindset and individual. If you are not that individual, then you are not this game's intended audience. It's not a fault of the game, and it's not a fault on you per se. It's just not made for you. And this is something I've seen as a recurring trend. Many of those that criticized the game for this were those that "brute-forced their way into the game as if it was an obligation to have to appreciate it or dare have their intelligence questioned. And as you can already see, these types of individuals hated the game as a result in victim of circumstance, but those that were interested and intrigued and wanted to press forward and be challenged, or had the mindset of appreciated such game, emerged pleased and also religiously "awakened" and "changed."
>>343836892
well ill try it when it is a reasonable price.
but until then the talos principle has been super nice.
>>343839117
sports games are fucked mate they reskin the same game with updated rosters each year most of those controls are optional turn ons.
>>343843871
rolling out of boss attacks felt very rewarding in souls games
I'll give you the movesets for weapons got boring after a while
grinding stats was only really a problem in dark souls 2, where everything is buffed out of proportion so levels are the only reasonable way to beat everything
>>343856920
>and also religiously "awakened" and "changed."
I liked The Witness but come the fuck on.
>>343836892
its a good game but so overpriced
they spent way too much money on the world instead of the puzzles
>>343855315
I agree with you, and Riven is one of my favorite games, but this difference between the two is what makes Witness a postmodern experience compared with Riven.
In riven, all the puzzles are contextualized within the game, and operate as part of some kind of system. The game is a complete world that exists on its own. The witness exists in a broader context outside just the game. Not just the references to concepts in physics and art and math, but it requires the player to take part in it and realize what their doing is a game, right up until the ending where they take the role of the game designer.
>>343858029
>rolling out of boss attacks felt very rewarding in souls games
It doesn't matter, that's the entirety of the game and what it comprises of. hit hit dodge hit hit dodge hit hit dodge. They never introduce new mechanics or ways of taking down enemies.
>>343860340
to add to that, I also feel like the puzzles in Riven limit themselves to the grounding of its world's systems (machines, pipes etc...) while in the witness, the puzzles were like this platonic form of what a puzzle is, and required the game communicating these abstract ideas to you
>>343860340
I agree completely with you.
>>343861229
Riven is a great game, and I feel like the Witness is Jonathan Blows love letter to the Myst series, but putting his own perspective and ideas about what games are into it
>>343860340
And it's a horribly long journey that becomes tedious. The point could have been conveyed in about a 1/3 or less of the time that the game took. Instead, the journey became more important than the point, and that's pretty awful when the whole game was designed to tell that point.
>>343860340
>>343861229
Yes, what people don't understand about The Witness is that it's not Riven. You're deconstructing this world and its systems, you're deconstructing the mechanics and purpose of these puzzles. But then some people say, well then the world isn't necessary and the game is overpriced. NO, the world is not only necessary for the solution and connection of these puzzles but also the marriage between the game's themes of self-reflection and its mechanics. I think of it like this. You know ow if you're stuck on something and can't figure out the solution for the life of you but thn you step outside, get some fresh air, walk around, look at the world peacefully then come back and all of a sudden you figured out the solution? THAT is the main purpose of the Witness's world thematically to me.
>>343861836
*You're not deconstructing this world and its systems
why do blow fans seem like cultists
>>343858079
In case you haven't realized these threads are nothing but (You) bait. Same pattern of thread, same style of posts every night for like a week now. I'm starting to think it's the Superior Limb-Based Combat Guy taking a new slightly more subtle tack.
>>343861465
I totally agree that it doesnt exactly respect the players time, and this video >>343838682 put it really well in that I feel like its an artistic decision made by blow
but, at least I feel, that you cant really separate what you'd call the journey and the point of the game. Its not a conventional narrative, but at least to me the most engaging part is having the player of the game gradually develop an understanding of what the game actually involves, going from understanding the panel puzzles and its rules -> the environment and how the game world itself operates on some kind of perspective based puzzles -> the really esoteric ones like the video based puzzles
>>343852620
La Mulana isn't original and is only emulative of msx games despite being somewhat competently made.
The Witness has never been done before and is far more artistically resonant and impactful on the industry.
>>343861836
I definitely agree with this, and I know I'll probably get made fun of, but its because of this that I honestly think the Witness is one of the most ambitious and rewarding video games ever made.
>>343862252
>but, at least I feel, that you cant really separate what you'd call the journey and the point of the game.
Of course you can. You cut out a sizable chunk. If the game were 100 hours long, you could probably make the same point that you're making now that it needed to have been that long. No, it really didn't.
It was really boring and the random pretentious quotes scattered about were physically painful
Einstein is literally an overrated shithead
Has anyone studied complexity theory? I havent seen many people point out the connection between the themes and mechanics of the witness and their relevance to P and NP classes of problems, and how the game literally checks a puzzles certificate or "witness"
The Witness is not a game but an experience.
This game was made by an autist for autists
>>343836892
Walking simulators with iOS tier puzzles aren't impressive to people who aren't up their own ass.
>>343862520
>I honestly think the Witness is one of the most ambitious and rewarding video games ever made
And I completely agree with you. I would've thought /v/ would love the game, being video game enthusiasts, but perhaps majority here are not as entrenched in the medium as they lead to believe otherwise they would have the capacity to appreciate unprecedented design.
>>343860696
Nigga, what the fuck?
A huge portion of the Souls game is about exploration and piecing together a story from what bits you can determine from the environment, item descriptions, NPC dialogue and bosses. You're always looking for that next secret area, or the next shortcut. Some of the weapons may have the same moveset, but you also need to try and tackle problems in the most efficient way. Sure, you could try and fight with fat-rolls, max armor and a shield, but if you keep getting your shit wrecked, maybe you could try swapping to lighter equipment and being more agile about the whole thing?
That's not even bringing up magic or ranged, which most of the time are very limited resources that you have to manage carefully, along with your Estus/Blood Vials. Hell, Bloodborne even plays drastically differently then the other Souls games because there is so much emphasis on fast combat and parrying.
It's okay if they're not your cup of tea, that's totally fine, but to say it's just "dodge hit hit dodge hit hit" is the same as simplyifing FPS down to "well you point and shoot the bad guys and that's it" or RTS down to "Well, you build more guys then your opponent and that's it."
Who am I kidding, you're just fishing for (you)'s anyways.
>>343837532
It's fedora core
>>343864238
What is he doing?
He is hitting and dodging. He may use different weapons, he may have different stats, but he is hitting and dodging. There are no other mechanics he is using or is able to use. He can't even pull a lever like in Hitman and have a crate fall on an nemy or set up environmental kills. It's just hitting and dodging. That's neither innovative, special, nor interesting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2mEBYDDKaI
>>343864238
>A huge portion of the Souls game is about exploration and piecing together a story from what bits you can determine from the environment, item descriptions, NPC dialogue
That's not gameplay. Go read a book if you want narrative.
>>343865273
>exploration
>not gameplay
>>343864978
>He can't even pull a lever like in Hitman and have a crate fall on an nemy or set up environmental kills
Context sensitive scripted events are less impressive than solid mechanics that can be applied to a variety of boss designs.
Much of the story-telling is optional or outright fucking hidden from you. If you want to go be a knight smacking some zombies/demons around, you can. But if you want to know WHY you're smacking those zombies around, you can go searching for it. It's subjective though, and I respect your opinion.
>>343864978
Here, have a pity (you)
>>343864978
You learn spells, py romances, miracles that have deep gameplay consequences
You gain elemental damage modifiers that allow you to experiment with modifying your weapons
You can learn to get good with partying and backstabbing
Even outside of combat, you're constantly learning new ways to explore and contextual use the world
Sorry phone
I firmly believe some of the games tutorials are poorly designed. MULTIPLE times I got through what was clearly a tutorial section with an incorrect understanding of the mechanic it was trying to teach me.
>>343865513
There are no solid mechanics though because the patterns are still the same. Dodge, block, and hit. There is only timing and stats which is a poison. You shouldn't have things restricted by arbitrary grinding stat walls. Everything should be available out the gate and you just eventually learn new moves, not having to grind to unlock them. That's cancer. Compare Dark Souls to Robotron. In Robotron, everything is available out the gate, you have to use your abilities to survive as long as you can. With Dark Souls, you have things pointlessly locked out to pad length and hamper focus.
>>343866436
Maybe you're an imbecile. Have you ever thought of that?
>>343866515
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gIZb1Gqh-os&list=PLH4CCskJrtwxwcXUUOFvdTYmjiZRFyHWO
>>343866602
That's beside the point. Let's say I am one. Let's say I'm a flaming retard.
No matter how much of an idiot I am, the game should not allow me to progress until I can prove that I have mastered the concept it will assume I understand later in the game. If my IQ is in the negative points I should just get stuck here. They can incorporate hints or something, but they clearly didn't want to do anything like that. In any case, I shouldn't be allowed to move on thinking I had succeeded.
>>343866515
Hello. I am new to this thread but I was wondering if you read my post:
>>343866116
You seem to have missed it, because I already refuted these points before you posted this.
>>343866116
But what is he doing in that video? That's what you're blatantly ignoring and trying to inflate with Ubisoft-tier counterarguments like "content" and "modifiers" locked behind grinding. At the end of the day, he is just stabbing and dodging, stabbing and dodging. It's not unique or original let alone good.
>>343866515
Have you seen literally NONE of the numerous Soul Level 1 playthroughs for every single Souls game?
Stats are a crutch and one that numerous people have proven you don't need to use.
>>343866895
Sorry that I don't want to swing my sword at a boss thousands of times instead of dozens in an effort to seem "hardcore"
>>343866515
Action games aren't meant to be much more than a test of reflexes if you really want to break it down in the most cynical way possible. But the Souls games are also RPGs with stats and a shitload of weapons. The stats however unlike a lot of turn based RPGs aren't a requirement for completing anything in the game, they're only used to prevent the player from using every weapon with a single character and to increase basic stats like HP and Stamina. Most action games already have unlockable weapons and stat upgrades anyway so its a good fit.
>>343866885
>Content is bad
>Combat is the only thing that makes a game worth it
Also, the Witness hasn't done anything that hasn't been done before. It's not unique either. Neither are the Souls games, really, but the sum is greater then the parts.
>>343866793
>I shouldn't be allowed to move on thinking I had succeeded
It's nonlinear. It drops you, and you have to figure it out. You can move further if you want to or you can take the standard path. The clues are there though. You're just too dumb to take them. Perhaps you should go back to playing Call of Duty or Assassin's Creed.
>>343867078
I would get bored doing that as well, but it is possible. All you accomplish by leveling up is increase the abilities you started the game with.
>>343867239
>Game says Go Left when you see a fork in the road
>You go left at a fork and die
>WELL YOU'RE JUST TOO STUPID THE CLUES WERE THERE WHY DIDN'T YOU GET IT LIKE I DID?
>>343867239
Sorry, you seem to have misinterpreted my "move further" comment.
I didn't mean move further as in a linear game, I meant move further in that puzzle's branch.
Imagine that you start at the root of a tree. Every puzzle you encounter is a branch. You learn the puzzle, you solve increasingly hard puzzles, then activate the laser.
I'm saying that you shouldn't be allowed to end up in the frustrating position of passing the tutorials and then suddenly getting stuck when your understanding is apparently wrong. At this point you need to go back and re-examine the previous puzzles to find that they didn't really help you understand the mechanic at all!
You basically have to blindly guess at what the puzzle is trying to ask you (note I am NOT talking about brute forcing the puzzle).
>>343867284
Your damage increases as you level. If I've mastered rolling and dodging attacks, I think I have sufficiently proven this by defeating a boss with 100 hits. I don't need to do it again with 5000 just to think I have somehow proven something about my mastery of the game. At that point it is a chore.
>>343836892
Neat. Might be worth a pirate.
>>343867143
>Also, the Witness hasn't done anything that hasn't been done before
Ah but you see, The Witness is original. It's puzzles are unique, obtuse, cryptic, and implements breakthrough nonlinear design with lack of tutorials.
Dark Souls is just a metroidvania. It's not special or Setting's been done before, combat's been done before, storytelling via lore has been done before, all of it has been done before, yet Souls seems to revel in it's mediocrity and refuses to innovate mechanically and design-wise whatsoever which is a detriment in an interactive medium.
Man I came into this thread because OP made it sound kindof cool. Like, you solve puzzles to advance through the island but eventually you use different perspectives as you explore the island to solve puzzles you didn't even know were there in the first place? Sounded awesome, like a Myst/Metroidvania/Walking Simulator.
Thank god I stuck around to see what kind of people sucked this games dick.
>>343867713
Pleb.
>>343836892
Environmental puzzles suck. It's like a book compiling trivia. It's fun to read once from time to time, but that's not rewarding. It is less about raw logic and more about observation. And considering Blow didn't want to give incentives for the player to do them, they are just there, useless.
>>343867643
The Witness is a collection of iOS puzzles in a 3D world for pretentious cocksuckers (you). Dark Souls is a 3D action RPG that builds upon the combat mechanics of OoT. It has literally nothing to do with Metroidvania games you dumbfuck.
>>343867643
Can you suggest a better Metroidvania? I enjoyed Demon Souls, Dark Souls and Bloodborne but I'm burnt out on them.
Actually asking, I love the genre.
>>343867901
Guy sucking Dark Souls dick earlier, I think Dark Souls is related to Metroidvanias in the sense that you're in a semi-linear world and you unlock shortcuts and new areas by defeating bosses and finding new items.
>>343867873
>And considering Blow didn't want to give incentives for the player to do them
Playing the game would be an incentive.
People keep saying there's a deep story present in the witness if you just observe the surroundings, but I thought one of the key complains about the witness was that all of this amounts to nothing.
This was my first refund. You earned it, blow.
>>343868056
Playing the game is an objectively bad experience so it's not a great incentive.
>>343841397
And yet there are 200+ grid puzzles and you could cut half of that considering how many of them are fillers. I like when my puzzle games are challenging, and the only challenging puzzles were in understanding the mechanisms in the swamp and the puzzle at the bottom of the mountain.
>>343868034
The biggest difference between Souls and Metroidvania is the lack of maze like level design and backtracking with items that allow you to explore previously inaccessible areas. There's some of the latter in the Souls games but its usually just keys and not upgrades (although the rite of kindling and the fire retardant ring in Izalith was a step in the right direction, makes me with the Izalith was finished).
>>343868198
>Playing the game is an objectively bad experience
If you're dumb I assume it would be.
>>343867639
After checking it out I've changed my mind.
>>343868293
Ah, yeah like I said I don't think the Souls games are full Metroidvanias, but they have elements of it, but those are usually shortcuts/secret content(Like getting to Djura or taking the back route to Iosefkas Clinic in Bloodborne, or starting with the Skeleton Key in DS). Not full Metroidvania by any measure, but just enough that it feels satisfying when you unlock a shortcut.
>>343868362
Rude. Never reply to one of my posts again unless you're going to say something of merit.
>>343867873
why would you want to play a game based on raw logic? Are you a machine? Theres a lot of intuitive thinking required in this game that makes it fun
>>343868514
>>343868293
Ah, I forgot to mention the most important part of the shortcuts and alternate routes is that it makes the world feel real, when all the routes loop around and intersect with each other. That's really what I like. I guess one could argue that exploration and discovery is the real gameplay outside of combat in the Souls games.
>>343868828
>exploration and discovery is the real gameplay outside of combat in the Souls games.
The fact that DaS2 is by far considered the worst by fans despite having the most combat and the least shortcuts should prove this easily.
>>343856920
wew I bet your a soulsfag
I JUST WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE WITNESS!!!
DARKSOULS GET OUT!!!!!
>>343869576
You must have missed the part where he bitched at soulsfags for most of the thread
>>343869645
What did you like about it?
What did you dislike about it?
>>343866793
this is the same with any game though. A retarded monkey could brute force the first level of mario by mashing the buttons, but not understand how a jump works. You havent proved you understand it
>>343836892
Le arduously long grindy puzzle game is a work of art meme
>>343836892
Its really the most boring, unrewarding, pretentious game ever. The puzzles are extremely non-fun, the game does a terrible job at teaching you most of them and your rewards for beating them are either more of the same puzzles you spent the last two hours trying to figure out, or some lame '2deep4u' video clip that are so pretentiously placed, Jonathon Blow probably doesn't even know why he put them there.
>>343853047
How dare you compare that brilliant film to this steaming pile of shit
>>343872271
>steaming pile of shit
but why though?
>>343836892
Before I saw the gameplay, I was expecting that the puzzle solving mechanics is similar to Portal and Talos Principle. Moving around and interacting with the environment to solve puzzles. That's what I was hoping since the graphics of the game looks pretty good and fits with that style.
When I saw the gameplay, I was disappointed. You can't really interact that much with the environment but rather, most of the time, the puzzle in the game is focused in just one square screen making lines and all that shit. All my hopes were gone the moment that I realized that that method is how you solve most of the puzzles.
>>343875824
Why does it matter if you're picking up cubes?
If that was implemented as a mechanic, that would completely ruin what the game is trying to do.
>>343875824
There are actually some puzzles that do interact with the environment, but too few for them to count.
