Daggerfall
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I've never played Daggerfall, but I sometimes hear it's an even deeper, richer game than Morrowind. Is there any truth to this? Or is most of the content in the game pretty much just fodder?
Daggerfall is the best Elder Scrolls game. It's not even a contest.
It's "deeper and richer" in that it is a bit more mechanically complex.
But the core of the game is wandering endless randomly generated terrain and fighting randomly generated bandits in randomly generated dungeons to sell their junk in randomly generated towns.
The overall theme is "you know what, being an adventurer would actually be really tedious if you think about it"
>>343499650
when the guy finishes his Unity remake, I'll probably give it a real go again
>>343499650
I don't think they're really compatible.
You can DO a lot more in Daggerfall, but the environments aren't as complicated so those actions don't mean as much.
There is a lot MORE content in Daggerfall, but it's mostly randomly generated so it's not worth seeing as much.
Honestly to me Daggerfall and Morrowind almost feel like they come from separate series. I like them both
Daggerfall is like an adventure simulator. the world map is giant but it's not worth exploring. Instead you fast travel and have to manage your rest time in relation to the time limit of your quest. You go and kill somebody and retrieve something. It has a lot more "management" aspects and less individually crafted cool stuff and characters
fodder
anyone that says daggerfall is better than morrowind is a hipster
>>343499932
sounds fun actually, like open-world, endless content dungeon crawler
>>343499932
>>343500181
>>343500423
Does Daggerfall have the same richness of lore/politics going on as Morrowind? Like do you really get a feel for different factions and stuff?
>>343500181
>the world map is giant but it's not worth exploring
>but it's not worth exploring
That especially applies to everything Elder Scrolls since Oblivion
>>343499650
ctrl+c ctrl+v, the map.
More mechanics I guess, nothing special.
Honestly the only time TES was really standout was when they did that crazy architecture stuff in Morrowind. Otherwise it's just been pretty standard fantasy junk.
>>343500491
No. Aside from like the 7 people with the biggest names you hardly learn anything about anyone or anything outside of reading books. The NPCs suffer from encyclopedia syndrome even worse than morrowind NPCs. People praise Daggerfall pretty much entirely just for being absolutely huge and having more mechanics to mess around with. Don't get me wrong though, there is some stuff going on, it's not as boring as I might be making it sound, but it doesn't stand up to morrowind in that regard.
Dagger fall is much broader and shallower than morrowind. I like daggerfall for its honestly quite ahead of its time engine and atmosphere but the challenge and the meaningfulness of your actions are an illusion. Not to say that couldn't be said of most games technically but the randomness of the terrain and the random but small quest pool just constantly remind you that you're wasting you're time.
It's just a lot of similar content slightly changed each time to give you the feeling there's a lot to do when in reality any competent player will be teleporting around and fast traveling to see the small pool of content that actually moves the game forward.
Here's some longform autism on more than you ever wanted to know about Daggerfall:
http://www.shamusyoung.com/twentysidedtale/?p=28353
It's actually multi-post tubo autism about the entire Scrolls series, but parts 4 through 6 are Daggerfall specifically.
Some anon in a thread once actually had an interesting post about how Daggerfall more resembles Oblivion and Skyrim and that Morrowind is the outlier of the entire series. I wish I had saved it
A deeper pile of shit, maybe. Play Dwarf Fortress in adventurer mode if you really need a pointless, empty, randomly generated world with superficial mechanics that bloat the game without actually adding anything to it.
I do like Daggerfall, but it's definitely not better than Morrowind. Even if it's ultimately a shallow game, Daggerfall felt like an adventure in a vast land.
From what I've seen of Daggerfall, it looks like it's basically Radiant Everything.
>>343499650
The spell system is the greatest fucking thing ever made in history, you can design your own spells, give them names and combine them with up to 3 effects, not even skyrim does this without mods.
>>343499650
I like the pixelated titties and the giant dungeons of Daggerfall.
>>343501463
Thanks anon.
>>343504553
To elaborate, if you really want to emulate the feel of becoming lost in a giant fucking labyrinthine dungeon, Daggerfall is one of the best games out there for that.
>>343504663
Isn't the entire map meant to be the size of Britain?
>>343499932
This.Pic unrelated.
>>343500026
>it looks bad
>it looks bad
>it looks bad
>transportation available by mages guild
>werewolves added in xpac
>muh icons
Not a really good picture to use as proof of anything. It sounded like he had some good points but he spent the majority of your pic bemoaning graphical flaws
wtf i hate morrowind now?
>>343500461
So minecraft
>>343504757
Bethesda claims that, but it's about 68,000km2 short of that. Daggerfall's world is 161,600 km2.
By comparison, Skyrim is 37.1 km2, and 1/4 of that is behind invisible walls and unplayable.
>>343504875
did you even read it properly? He's saying it looks good, but that the improved graphics were a tradeoff for gameplay that was better in daggerfall
>>343499650
Morrowind is better because everything has been built and placed by hand, Daggerfall is 99% randomly generated.
The radiant quests in Skyrim are shat on but Daggerfall somehow gets a free pass. I say both are shit.
>>343506548
Skyrim's radiant quests would be fine if they also had a random dungeon generator to use for those quests, although I'm not sure how you'd fit randomly-generated dungeons into the otherwise hand-crafted world.
>>343506682
You don't.
Hand-crafted>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>randomly generated
no one gives a fuck about how big the faggerfall game world is when it has 10 unique NPCs
>>343504553
And in Skyrim, even the priestesses of Dibella wear huge robes and hoods that cover everything. Big step back.
>>343500026
Just looked this up, seems cool. Daggerfall without the more dated mechanics would be great. Looks like Combat will be the same though which is nice
>>343509060
honestly, the graphics aren't even a problem, but having that glorious higher visibility sure is nice.
What I'm most hoping for, except the new engine which should run perfectly on modern computers, is the supposed mod support it will bring. Just imagine you can fill in the world with random shit other than it just being barren between points on the map.
Luckily, daggerfall is free for download, so everyone gets to enjoy
>>343509532
It will comfy, a whole new world of TES mods in a map literally miles and miles larger than skyrim
>>343499650
The mechanics themselves are both more expansive and complex than Morrowind. And the dungeon crawling is much more intense.
But that's just about it. The world is practically empty. Don't be fooled by all the cities and worthless NPCs. The game essentially has no content outside of the dungeons.
>>343501849
guess how i know youve never played dwarf fortress
>>343499650
Talks of the 'best' Elder Scrolls are just oldfags arguing with other oldfags about whos the oldest.
Everyones favourite Elder Scrolls is the first one they played, they all have glaring flaws and it's purely nostalgia.
Any newfag to the series will tell you Skyrim is the best.
>>343510339
>Everyones favourite Elder Scrolls is the first one they played
I played Daggerfall first. I do like the game and I wished a lot of it would have been brought over to Morrowind. But Morrowind is a considerably better game than Daggerfall even so.Daggerfall still has better dungeons
>>343500491
I'd say it's not as deep, but there is definitely detail and attention there. There's just a fuckton MORE of everything and is more along the lines of classical fantasy. Real problem Daggerfall suffers from is that everything outside of the main story is generated content and can sometimes be unfinishable if you get stuck with a dungeon layout that doesn't work or something.
>>343510339
>Everyones favourite Elder Scrolls is the first one they played
This is true in my case. Played Oblivion first, still my favorite. I went back and played Morrowind and had a blast, and I still can't get into Skyrim, even with the mods
>>343509878
I'm gonna replay Daggerfall when XL comes out proper.
>>343510416
>mfw they originally planned to include the entire province of Morrowind but had to settle for Vvardenfell because of time and technical constraints
I'm glad Tamriel Rebuilt picked up where they left off, but I'll die before it gets finished.
>visit a shop
>wait until nightfall
>rob everything
>exit shop and load everything on your cart
>wait till morning
>sell it back to shopkeeper
>????
>profit
>>343499650
Wait for the port/ remake is being made for Unity, it's fixing all bugs (Daggerfall's main problem) and will bring mod support and other fancy stuff.
Anyway it's a great game (in every sense of the word), personally I liked more than Morrowind, although Morro it's a objectively better game.
>>343510339
I started with Skyrim and I'm a fan of... well, none of them, really. Maybe if I find some decent combat mods for Oblivion or Morrowind that speed things up and make it less braindead.
>>343501095
It's actually hilarious how long it took Bethesda to achieve literally the same "got to dungeon X and kill Y" generated quests system in Skyrim considering Daggerfall had it 15 years earlier. It pisses me off how they have Radiant AI and either see, incapable or unwilling to do anything new with it. Even in Oblivion only quests that consistently made use of Radiant AI were Dark Brotherhood ones and it made them stand out.
>>343510339
I played Oblivion first. I think Skyrim is better for gameplay and faces, but worse for quests, guilds, and story. Skyrim also has better support for increased FOV, which is a necessity for me as anything under 90 gives me headaches. I kind of prefer Oblivion's comfy world, but that's more of a subjective thing, and I wouldn't want every setting to be identical. I can't really compare the mods for the two games because I never got into Oblivion modding as much as Skyrim modding.
>>343499650
>dat feel when so many people died to that imp in the starting dungeon and gave up on the game
>>343510416
>>343510339
I haven't played Oblivion in years but occasionally I watch a video on it and I feel all nostalgic...
I should play it again
>>343510416
>Daggerfall still has better dungeons
No shit, like 95% of Morrowind's dungeons were three-room tombs with two enemies in them.
>>343511086
>Maybe if I find some decent combat mods for Oblivion or Morrowind that speed things up and make it less braindead.
For Morrowind there's this.
http://forums.bethsoft.com/topic/1513002-rel-oblivion-like-combat-tweaks-part-of-men-project/
But really I also think TES series as a whole isn't that good and Morrowind was more of a black sheep where many things came together and Bethesda hasn't been able to replicate it since.
>>343499836
*holds contest*
*daggerfall loses to skyrim*
btfo
>>343510339
>Everyones favourite Elder Scrolls is the first one they played, they all have glaring flaws and it's purely nostalgia.
Untrue. I played Oblivion first and after playing the others it is my least favorite. Morrowind is actually the one I like the most now.
Nice to be able to like Morrowind most without even being a Nostalgiafag.
>>343511393
Well, that's because they WERE tombs. Not to praise MW's dungeons or anything because they weren't that hot, but people expect every dungeon to be, well, a dungeon to explore for loot and shit. A lot of what's classified as "dungeon" in MW is a location serving it's purpose - tombs are tombs with couple of rooms filled with urns and crypts, caves are caves with maybe some bandits holed up in them, etc. They're not all epic adventures waiting to happen.
>>343511410
Thanks for the link, bruv.
As for the series - well, honestly, most aRPG series have one or two good games and the rest is a load of either mediocrity or horseshit.
Gothic has like Gothic 2 and Risen if we're stretching, Divinity has Divine Divinity and Divinity OS, Elder Scrolls has Morrowind and some say Daggerfall/Oblivion.
Consistent quality isn't a staple of the genre.
>>343511635Witcher is pretty solid all through unless you can't stand the combat or other elements in 1
>>343511603
I think that's because Oblivion is the only one that requires very fundamental modding to get into serviceable state. I have no idea how that aggressive level scaling got into the final product.
>>343511610
>They're not all epic adventures waiting to happen.
well, kinda
>>343511861
Isn't that thing right next to the entrance?
>>343511953
Sort of but it's not telegraphed to you like you'd expect in modern games or something. It's just very believably thrown on a rusty shelf in half-darkness.
>>343511086
>>343511635
My favorite Combat Mod for Morrowind is the old Combat Enhanced. It uses an odd script extender and is a bit unstable with the finishing moves but outside of them it works perfectly and really spices up the combat, making it my favorite of the series.
It works by using the Slash, Chop and Thrust mechanics of weapons by allowing you to pull off combo attacks with different weapons if you Slash, Chop and Thrust and specific orders with the different weapon skill types. Each weapon type has 5 different combos to use, ranging from 3 actions to 5 and you unlock access to the combos as you raise your skill level, unlocking at 10, 30, 50, 70 and finally 90 skill in the weapon. The combos can do everything from speeding up your attacks for a little while, to disarming enemies, to knocking off their armor, you knocking them back or down, to blinding or silencing them to even area of effect damage with your strikes. Each weapon skill also gets a final combo that unlocks at 90 skill that instantly kills the enemy if they are at low enough HP.
The best part of it is that the combinations of slash, thrust and chop link into each other, allowing you to daisy-chain the attacks from one to another fluidly. So rather than just standing there during combat, you'll be moving back and side to side to pull off the various attacks on the enemy.
>>343510870
in our lifetime brother
The systems in place allow for complex character creations to the most minute details, a great deal of things to do, and challenging enemies, traps, puzzles, and dungeons.
On the downside, cities and average NPCs have little in the way of anything but sheer scale. Quests and main story is pretty cool, and there's a great deal of books and lore from NPCs you can pick up.
So if you like P&P style dungeons, combat, and in depth CC, Daggerfall is the only entry capable of really satisfying that craving.
>>343511783
The Level Scaling isn't just bad for the enemies, it's bad for the dungeons. They're almost never unique or interesting in set pieces or treasure unless they're quest related. Therefore you never have any reason to ever explore, as the loot is just randomly generated trash.
One thing I like in Skyrim is that you actually have a reason to duck into the dungeons you see in the world because most have something good in them, a word wall perhaps.
>>343511861
Before I tried Morrowind, I heard people complaining about the Dwemer puzzle box, and I assumed it meant it was an actual puzzle you had to solve and it was really difficult and had a bullshit solution or something. Then I played the game and found out it's just an item you have to find, and apparently a lot of people didn't see it, but I found it very quickly and said "That's what the big deal was?"
>>343512692
It can be a lot of things like your lighting, whether you're packing a torch along, etc. And yes, a lot of people expected something bigger.
>>343512645
I'm not really concerned with loot. I care more about interesting quests, which is where Oblivion has the advantage, but set pieces are definitely better in Skyrim.
>>343512645
as much as /v/ shits on them and as linear as they are, Skyrim dungeons were much better imo simply because they weren't copypasta. If you've been in 1 oblivion cave you've been in all of them
>>343512823
Because they actually had a TEAM working on dungeons in Skyrim as opposed to one guy that worked on Oblivion's dungeon design. Which is kinda mindblowing when you think about it.
>>343499836
FPBP as always
>>343499650
The Betony demo is free from Bethesda.
If you download it you will know within 5 min if you would enjoy it or not.
I did not.
>>343513208
Their whole game is free.
>>343513301
Don't download from the official site, though. UESP has a more complete version.
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Files
>>343511117
>how long it took Bethesda to achieve literally the same "got to dungeon X and kill Y" generated quests system in Skyrim considering Daggerfall had it 15 years earlier
it's more about todd need more gimmick than just shout and want to skim on voice acting and writing. rng anything is possible. He would rng the whole map if consoles could handle it.
>>343512879
>one guy that worked on Oblivion's dungeon design
I've heard this many times, always with no source. Considering the amount of people working on the game, all of them learning to use the CS, I doubt it was only one guy. It's more likely there was a bunch of them, all following the same guidelines.
The problem with Oblivion`s dungeons is the amount of effects to create mood (fog, mist, rays of light) is smaller and less varied than Skyrim, which, along with the lack of differente imagespaces, makes all of them look the same.
>>343513714
I believe there was an interview concerning it actually. It was either one or no more than three guys.
Still, that's 1-3 people doing 200+ dungeons with a limited toolbox of dungeon pieces. It makes sense that a lot of them were going to feel fucking samey as shit after awhile.
Though this isn't unique to Oblivion. Morrowind also suffered from this by a mile. Forts, Ancestral Ruins, and Daedric Ruins were all like one of three layouts.
>>343513584
but then that would literally be daggerfall but smaller and prettier and less complex
>>343513714
fuck whoever designed the oblivion gate with weird ass weather names where you have to cross like 8 towers to get to the final one and the sigil stone
>>343513894
I don't know, never had that problem much in Morrowind. Sure stuff like caves obviously showed limited tileset, but stuff like Imperial Forts are military installations. Of course they'd be built in identical fashion for efficiency. Temples of the same religion from the same age would also follow certain conventions, shit like that.
>>343512823
>level-scaling draugr hole with catacombs
>level-scaling dwemer hole with generic clockwork machinery
>level-scaling crab people hole with little crab huts and glowing mushrooms
>occasionally lord be praised it's an interesting cave like that one pirate ship cove for you to stealth-arch your way through
as someone who enjoyed morrowind and skimmed oblivion, skyrim was the most boring, tedious, uninspired ass i've ever had to play
i'm convinced that the team of people working on dungeons was just there to come up with new permutations of eagle-bear-walrus puzzles to jam into the game
>>343514035
he would do it.
it is cheaper, isnt as time consuming while making dudebros think they are playing diablo in 3d.
>>343514119
Oblivion in general seems to have suffered from its designers not really playing the damn game for themselves to see how their decisions work out in practice. Elaborate Oblivion Gates sound cool until you realize you can potentially end up doing dozens of them. Save with level scaling. It's supposed to guarantee challenge at all times, but we all know how that worked out.
>>343511446
Niggerfall > Morrowind = Nehrim > Skyrim > Arena > Oblivion
>>343514353
>land modelled after cliche yuropoor medieval society
>nigger
>>343514434Maybe its made by Dice/EA.
>>343514125
Or it's just because Bethesda had few dungeon assets and fewer designers. That's why Morrowshit has small, repetitive dungeons that all follow the same 3 layouts.
>>343511861
>>343511953
>>343512103
>>343512692
>>343512779
I went through the whole dwemer ruin and didn't find it, had to look it up. I missed the room where it was cause you had to get up through a ledge I couldn't see in the dark.
>>343514519
At least the dungeon pieces are more unique, which aliviates the simplicity. Ayleid ruins are what you expect from elves: white stone, tall arcs and magic crystals. It's like Elven Architecture 101.
>>343499650
Just wait for the new versiona fan is making on Unreal engine (i think) and play it for yourself.
>>343514809
That's the issue with Oblivion though. Because they had a lot of notable "unique" elements in each part, it became all the more obvious when you'd run into a dungeon with the same layout and pieces.
"Oh, this room with the mezzanine with the broken section of wall. I know these other two directions aren't going to be worth going to because they lead to dead ends."
Shit like that happened a lot in Morrowind and Oblivion, but Oblivion it was more visually apparent.
>>343514975
no, it's unity.
and it will never be completed
>>343515053
he's made a lot of progress, since the world is procedurally generated anyway he doesn't have to hand craft the fuckhuge map. Original dev time on daggerfall was what, a year?
Mod support just rolled in
>>343512241
>>343510870
>Work on The Elder Scrolls II: Daggerfall began immediately after Arena's release in March 1994.[7] The new project saw Ted Peterson assigned the role of lead game designer.[8] Originally titled Mournhold and set in Morrowind, the game was eventually relocated to the provinces of High Rock and Hammerfell, in Tamriel's northwest.
what could have been
>>343515154
I'll always be fascinated on the stuff modders can archive. Just how they somehow saved on a technical, ambience and graphical level Skyrim will always puzzle me. Of course im not talking about extra content and fap material.
>>343515229
the worse morrowind? good thing they put this idea aside
Anyone playing the Unity version? I can't seem to rest, making the 1st dungeon very difficult. Tried rebinding the key with no success.
>>343515513
the diversity of autism
you can have any flavor of skyrim you feel is "right" or "as todd intended"
