>Video games don't need stories! If you want a story, go read a book!
Video games stories by and large are pretty bad and generally the best / most successful video games are mechanics driven experiences. There's nothing inherently wrong with stories in games of course and they certainly can add to some experiences, but they should be at most a supporting element to a strong mechanics driven game.
If stories are the reason that you play games and your favourite stories are game stories you are very stunted.
>>343440090
Brothers: A Tale of Two Sons.
>>343438772
>Metal gear solid
>>343438772
>implying genre fiction
>>343440985
Fuck off Julian
It's not that they don't need stories, gameplay shouldn't have to be sacrificed to make some glorified film project.
>>343440090
>If stories are the reason that you play games and your favourite stories are game stories you are very stunted.
>"If you don't enjoy games how I want you to enjoy them you're wrong!"
>>343438772
Stop it. You'll make David Cage cry
>>343440090
It's not the medium; it's what's done with the medium. Film wasn't used for sophisticated storytelling since day 1.
>>343441492
What I mean is other methods of storytelling are only so much better in comparison because they've had so much more time to develop.
What is this image supposed to convey?
>>343441851
So in other words you are saying that we should stop trying to make alternatives to already existing things?
Because that's retarded.
>>343442386
What? No, I am both
>>343441492
>>343441851
I'm replying to the other guy that posted the stupid thing.
>>343440090
>>343442909
I see.
Touche.
>>343438772
This dude scared the shit outta me as a kid
>>343441048
This.
>>343441048
I agree but designed should have the right to make simplistic gameplay if they want to keep the focus on the feelings or atmosphere or whatever. (I'm talking the good stuff like Journey, not stuff too dull like Gone Home.)
>>343441048
>>343443229
oh yeah, also God of War. That's one intentionally simple in gameplay to keep the player "immersed".
>>343442001
henry j waternoose iii
>>343440090
thread should have ended here
>>343443453
That would mean not discussing the issue.
>>343443353
DELETE THIS
Story in a video game is like story in a porn its expectex to be there but its not that important
>>343444831
>quoting Carmack after his live suicide at E3
>>343444831
>he doesn' watch porn with good story
>>343440090
>video game stories are always bad because I say so
Play some good fucking plot driven games before posting bullshit like that.
Inb4 "I have". You haven't.
>>343438772
All games have stories. Fucking doom has a story, even without the booklet or whatever, and I don't need to remind you of that Carmack quote. But if there IS a story, there's no excuse to do it terribly.
>>343445039
The only time the story should exceed the five minute mark is in kidnapping and abduction porn and even then it should only show the fate of the kidnapped
>>343444831
>>343445039
only like 70 years old watch porn with a plot
unless you're talking about doujins or something, there is never a good excuse to watch live action porn that isn't just what you want to see
>>343440090
>i love brain dead games
>>343445173
>All games have stories.
Really love that story in tetris
>>343445173
But if there IS a story, there's no excuse to do it terribly.
Most sensible post in the thread.
>>343438772
>and if I wanted a series of functions I'd go do math
>and if I wanted some moving art assets I'd go watch movies
>and if I wanted some sound I'd go listen to music
>>343438772
I don't care if a story is in a videogame.
What I do care about is if the story becomes more important than the gameplay itself.
>>343445567
>in this day and age
>still judging a product for one specific aspect
>and not the sum of its parts
Bruh
>>343445328
Blocks fall down and clear when lined up. Maybe the simplest story ever, but there is one.
Pick a videogame with equally good story and gameplay.
If you remove the story, you still have a videogame.
If you remove gameplay, you don't have a videogame anymore.
And "gameplay" is not bare minium interaction. Otherwise, browsing internet on your browser would be considered "gameplay" and it's not the case.
Stories in games are not a bad thing. But they are not as necessary as gameplay either. A game focusing more on story than on gameplay is a failure for the medium.
>>343445039
I used to stream porn on a gaming website at night and I'd skip the porn and we'd watch the story.
Shit was cash.
>>343445114
That's not what he said at all
>>343445328
Yeah, it wasn't that bad. I dunno why tetris worlds got the shit it got.
>>343446178
>accuses people of being stunted for playing a game strictly because its story is good
No, he's a faggot. He'd have a point if video games in their entirety focus more on story than gameplay, but in this oversaturated market, that's not the case.
>>343446051
Then why single out story? Why not the art? Or the music? Because the story is core that everything builds behind.
>>343446137
you seem like a cool guy
>>343438772
>Video games don't need stories! If you want a story, go read a book!
We have all the evidence we need.
Arrest him.
>>343446308
>Then why single out story? Why not the art? Or the music?
Do it. It's basic math. Take pong. Almost no art. No music. No story. Just gameplay.
Story is not as necessary as gameplay in videogames. A videogame can exist without story. But can a game exist without gameplay? No. Because it wouldn't be a game anymore. Apply the same reasoning to art and music.
>>343446051
>A game focusing more on story than on gameplay is a failure for the medium.
That's a different argument entirely. Your entire post was about removing gameplay entirely or at least dumbing it down to essentially a walking simulator.
If a game has more story than gameplay, but only marginally more story (IE virtually any Final Fantasy), could you call it a failure then?
>ITT: /v/ pretends to know about storytelling and writing
Is that from a game or is it a movie render? That CGI is starting to age quite poorly
>>343440090
pls play more vidya
>>343446308
>Because the story is core that everything builds behind.
No the story gives context to the gameplay, nothing more. One of my favourite games which I only played this generation(I missed out when it first released) did not have a story and is brilliant, without it and arguably better for not having one.
I would love to see an even newer game(other than the GBA one) just like this one and the story would not matter.
>>343438772
I've gotten into intense arguments with friends over this.
The core concept of videogames aren't about story, the story is just the fluff to give weight to the game, as with the music. The real concept is the gameplay, which should be before anything.
As such, I've stated that games are poor mediums for story telling. The way people normally perceive stories is linear, a sequence of events. It might jump around to different points of view through characters but unless it's a make your own adventure story (Goosebump choose your scare books) there is no choice.
A game, at it's core is you interacting with shit, and freedom of choice is preferred. You can't write a linear narrative around this which is why games have a lot of setting but can't actually put in plot without removing your freedom.
By virtue of being a game, a plot is always going to be weak, hence why it's shit for vidya. People need to understand this and realize they just want movies.
>>343446304
That's not what he said. He said that if your favorite stories in the world are stories told by videogames, then you haven't experienced good stories.
>>343446617
Gameplay is essential to a videogame. If the story is better than the gameplay, you basically are not focusing on the core aspect of videogames. Which is indeed a failure. If you want to make a videogame, a good one, gameplay should always be the best aspect.
I don't consider a game with better story than gameplay a good game. It is a bad game with a good story.
>>343446582
Yeah, and those were good for wasting time. But games have evolved beyond that. If gameplay is all that matter then GOTY's would be just games with no bugs or glitches, because that would be perfect gameplay.
>>343446582
>Because it wouldn't be a game anymore.
I agree. That said I fully embrace interactive cinematic experiences. Crazy as fuck as David Cage is, he made a good point when he didn't consider his contributions (Heavy Rain, Beyond, Detroit, etc) as video games, but rather as interactive movies.
I've personally wanted this since the cutscenes in the original Ninja Gaiden, and I'm glad technology has caught up to the idea, and better writers than David Cage thankfully have jumped on this bandwagon.
Also glad that the market is so huge now that we can have interactive movies and more gameplay/mechanic focused games at the same time. It really is a hell of an era right now. /v/'s really down to nitpicking when it comes to their bitching these days.
>Games don't need a story!
>Look at Tetris and Pong!
Yeah, but Tetris and Pong come from a different mindset of game making, like Asteroids or Q*Bert. there's still an objective, that's a narrative on it's own.
But seriously, a plot is almost essential to make the game make proper sense, and have a good sense of pregression regardless how good or bad the story might be. I mean, if that's the case adventure games might as well give us all the tools right from the start and just be a series of puzzles with no sense of purpose, jrpgs should start with a full party and be just a boss rush, and first person shooters should cease existing because a plot is what moves them forward.
>>343447001
Bullshit, video games are the best way of telling stories because it turns the person playing it into a character. It allows for a style of pacing and narrative that isn't possible in movies or books. You assholes are just putting books on a pedestal.
>>343447001
I agree with your reasoning but
>games are poor mediums for story telling
I can't agree. Yes, so far few developers managed to tell good stories (with good gameplay) in videogames. But I think it's still possibile. The medium is simply not mature enough.
I am confident a story can be told thanks to game mechanics. How? Hell, if I knew I'd be rich.
>>343438772
uh
why did you use a photo of mr. waternoose?
>>343447054
The only thing that evolved though are graphics and stories. Gameplay has been the same for too long. Devs are pouring more time in things that are unecessary for a videogame. And that's not good.
Again: I'm ok with good stories, art and music in videogames. I'm not ok if those aspects are better than gameplay. Too many modern games are like that.
>>343447601
Bruh, you must be trolling if you think gameplay hasn't evolved. Furthermore, it doesn't matter what aspect of a game takes center stage, so long as it a)fulfills the creator's vision and b)makes for a good game.
>>343438772
>Nobody gives a shit about John Doe's crappy indie film
>Makes it a game instead
>10/10 best cinematic experience ever holy fuck look how cool I am because indy=better
>>343447153
As long as we draw a line between a cinematic experiences and an actual videogame, I'm fine. Let's agree they are different things. Similar but different at the same time.
>>343447001
Why does a story have to be linear to be good? Why do you assume that a games with a linear narrative is a failure? We don't have to have choice in every single part of the game for the sake of it
> People need to understand this and realize they just want movies.
Bullshit, the purpose of movies is to explore the purity of cinema. Get these cancerous storyfags out of my films. If you want a story, go listen to spoken word shit
>>343447793
>things that has never ever happened
>>343447793
Video games are easier to break into than """film""".
>>343438772
What book.
>>343447005
You're taking this notion to unnecessary extremes, and your logic is lacking. A script writer has nothing to do with the actual game development, so saying that hiring a particularly good writer detracts from core gameplay elements is pretty much bullshit. Say the Arkham series, known for its fun, fast-paced fighting mechanics, also managed to have a story that was so good it not only did the mechanics justice, but even surpassed them in places?
Does that make the gameplay any less fun? Any less fast-paced? Of course it wouldn't. The story just happened to be that memorable.
Note I'm not talking about shit like Dear Esther, which denounced gameplay altogether, or an adventure game like Heavy Rain, which was basically Simon with a good story. I'm talking about a marginal superiority of story over gameplay, both of which would be considered great. You cannot call that a failure to the medium.
>>343447287
>It allows method of story telling you can't put into books.
It's not a method of story telling, you're just interacting with shit in an environment shaped by a setting. Your current interactions within that environment aren't a part of a story, you could argue that "you're writing it as you go a long" but that goes against the fundamental concept of a story, which a linear telling of events
To write a story for a game without shoving them into a movie game would take a countless number of premeditated sequences for the characters surrounding your character to interact with whatever action you chose to take.
>>343447906
Right. Coding, finding art and sound assets, finding a platform to publish on, and putting together a working game is easier than filming shit and posting it on YouTube. Then why don't you become an indie darling, bruh?
>>343447783
If the creator puts more focus on other aspects than on gameplay, it's hardly an achievement for the medium. Purpousely ignoring gameplay for story or other things is like shitting on the idea of videogame and what defines it.
Is the author free to do whatever he want? Yes. Does this mean it is a good game? No.
>>343447054
>If gameplay is all that matter then GOTY's would be just games with no bugs or glitches, because that would be perfect gameplay.
You have no idea what you're talking about
>>343447794
If a simple name change is all you want, then you don't have much to worry about. They're gonna call them games for no other reason than to sell them. I personally can live with what's essentially a working marketing tactic.
>>343448031
I meant finished product m8.
Obviously video games are harder to actually make.and I'm trying
>If a game isn't a FPS or a action platinum beat'em up style game it's not really a game, just an interactive movie.
>>343447992
A story doesn't have to be linear. And games are great for a storytelling medium. I know people hated it, but even Gone Home does a good job of using an interactive experience to piece together a narrative.
>>343438772
The best video game stories are the ones that aren't pre-written
>>343448145
Simple semantics. Why use the term "interactive movie" as a negative? I like 'em better than most video games.
>>343448079
Because story gets a bad rap. Games with great graphics come out but people aren't going ,"this art is taking away from the gameplay. If people wanted art, why don't they just go look at paintings." Because when you strip away all aspect of a game except gameplay, all that's left is numbers and codes.
>>343448287
>The best video game stories are the ones that aren't pre-written
Sounds like something I'd read on a minecraft confessions page. You should be ashamed of yourself.
>>343447818
You interacting with an artifical environment is no less of a story than what you're doing at this very moment, lurking 4chan.
Stories are linear anon, that's what makes them story.
I can tell you a series of events, but I can't say that what I'm doing now or what I plan to do later is somehow a story.
Either games set the stage of setting and let you frolick in it (good games) or you're tied down by characters and their predetermined action trying to tell you a series of events forced on you against all choice. You can add multiple routes, multiple endings, it's still limited.
>>343448071
>Your work sucks because it isn't what I wanted it to be!
>>343447881
fair enough. Lemme rephrase.
>John Doe's crappy indie film idea can't possibly penetrate the barrier that exists in film due to the standards made by masterpieces.
>Makes it into an interactive cutscene game with some token gameplay elements instead
>People actually pay attention to it because vidya stories don't need to be 'good' when they serve their purpose.
>Casuals and hipsters glorify how great it is because they secretly just want to watch a movie.
>>343438772
Okay
Stories in video games are perfectly fine. It's nice to have an emotional throughline, and a motivation for your character's actions.
HOWEVER.
Games are very, VERY rarely successful in making the story the focus of the experience.
And the story never actually has any influence on the quality of the game. A good game with a bad story is still a good game, and a bad game with a good story is still a bad game.
Also, some of the best, most well known, most widely played, most culturally pervasive games have little to no story at all. See: Tetris, Minecraft, Super Mario Bros, Doom, etc.
>>343448243
You're stringing together backstory anon, at the sacrifice of plot.
>>343448396
No, I'm saying that if the only way you measure the quality of gameplay is through how many bugs you can find, you don't know shit
>>343438772
Is it me or did they rip off Yagrum from Morrowind?
Gameplay should never be sacrificed for story.
The problem is that good gameplay is to 'hard' for many developers
>>343444831
>watching porn with no substance, character or passion
>jacking off for the fuck of it just to pass time
>not engorging yourself in the planning, elaboration and thrill of a carefully planned and studied doujin
absolute fucking pleb
>>343448429
But this is wrong because something as simple as a picture can be a story in itself. Stories don't have to be linear. They don't even have to have words.
>>343447952
Taking things to extremes is not unecessary at all. It's time to stop with discussing about grayish area shit. Videogames without game wouldn't exist.
And yes, games are made by multiple people. Does that should excuse the fact a dev for putting more effort on the story than on the gameplay? Fuck no. It's a bad attitude of modern devs and players, exoressing a good opinion for a game because "it looks goid", "it has good music" or "the story touched me". Meanwhile the gameplay is subpar. That's unacceptable, sorry. There are no grey zones.
You bring good examples. Dear Esther was an experiment a decade ago. Following my reasoning it should be a failure. And honestly, it's not a brilliant game, come on. BUT it was good for being a unique experiment. Now, you have modern walking simulators. Those aren't experiments anymore. Those are straight up sorry excuses of a videogame. Those are indeed failures.
>>343438772
>a medium that's defining features against films, radio, books etc is it's agency and gameplay mechanics
>let's not focus on those features
>>343447003
>only the stories in the medium i approve of can be good
Fuck off.
>>343448429
>you're tied down by characters and their predetermined action trying to tell you a series of events forced on you against all choice
This tells us nothing about the quality of the story. Removing choice isn't necessarily bad
>>343448641
Then you're admitting that actual gameplay relies on things outside of it to be good.
>>343448429
>Stories are linear
Yes, when told in a linear fashion. Shitloads of fiction has had interactivity or multiple endings centuries before video games. Clue's three randomly selected endings immediately come to mind, and many stage plays have always had an interactive element by utilizing the audience.
Saying that stories are always linear is nonsense.
>>343448396
What do you think roguelikes are?
>>343438772
Who is this semen demon
>>343445173
That's not a "STORY" in Doom though. Not in the strictest sense, anyway. There's no characters, there's no arcing plot, and there's no real driving theme.
What you're referring to as Story is really just Context, which is good.
Kill the demons
Save the princess
Collect the triforce pieces
Save the City from the falling missiles
That's context. That's good.
That's what that whole "Liking soup for the spoon" comment is about. context is the spoon. It delivers the content to you in a way you can manage. It doesn't overpower the experience.
>>343448854
>I just fucking love straw men holy shit
okay
I feel like people are focusing too much on one part of a game, rather then focusing on just one specif part of a game, it's better to try to make a whole cohesive experience. A game shouldn't just have a good story, or good gameplay, the story and gameplay should mix itself together. Just like a good movie scene mixes a good usage of acting, effects and the right music, a good game can be great if it becomes a gesamtkunstwerk.
>>343448923
Yes, those would be the only acceptable things if gameplay was all that mattered.
>>343448850
>you can't focus on more than one thing at a time
Autism.
>>343448429
You have no idea what a story is.
It sure as fuck isn't limited to being linear.
Any Choose Your Own Adventure book proved that.
>>343448943
Context is story, bruh. When people talking about "writing" in video games, there's usually three parts. The lore(backstory, context stuff), the dialogue, and the actual narrative(how events proceed. All three can be considered story. I think you're confusing the story with the narrative.
A good game knows not to let the story get in the way of the gameplay
A shit game will put the story above gameplay and be willing to sacrifice gameplay for story
A great game is able to fuse the story and gameplay together, making them blend seamlessly
What about memetale?
Isn't its gameplay part of its story?
>>343448875
Are you shitposting?
>>343448943
>spend a month writing a whole design document and backstory for DOOM
>Carmack, Romero and the team throw it out for the better
wew
>>343448943
>doomguy isn't a character
>demons wanting to engulf the universe and getting stopped in the process isn't an arcing plot
>doomguy wanting to stop demons wanting to engulf the universe isn't a real driving theme
You're confusing "simple story" for "no story at all".
>>343448943
But it is a story. Your base was attacked by evil demons leaving everyone but you dead, which means that it's up to Doomguy to save the base by purging the demons. It's true that the game doesn't directly give you your objective, but you discover this by playing the game, and reaching the end of each episode.
>>343448875
It does. Pong got old after a couple of hours. All games get old after a time. Visual and narrative elements help give them some staying power.
Imagine playing a Final Fantasy game with no story. It would be fucking awful.
>>343444831
>porn analogy
If we didn't have narrative games, we'd be wasting the advantages that an interactive medium has in storytelling. As always, whether gameplay or story is more important depends entirely on the game
>>343449458
>he claims to be a video game enthusiast
>doesnt recognize a rather famous quote
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games
>42 items
>Not a single fucking one of them is remembered for their story
>Even the ones that are ostensibly story driven (GTA, CoD), nobody actually plays them for the story
>Of the top ten, only two have any story at all
There you go. History speaks for itself.
>>343449241
You're the one not adding anything to the discussion. You tell me.
>>343445039
I couldn't fap to this one visnov for that reason.
Can't remember but there were no sex scenes for a few hours, and this chick with an axe went through this pretty intense and emotional arc. Then it went to the sex scene with her and I just had too much respect for the character to jerk off to her.
>>343448756
>>343444831
>>343445218
I like romantic stories in hentai but romance is pretty uncommon in porn, and I don't know why.
Do girls like it more than guys?
>>343438772
>I like video games with a good story
> I do not like video games with an intrusive story
> with very long non optional cut scenes
>>343445986
No, what you described is literally the game's one and only mechanic.
>>343438772
Why would you post a picture of the coolest dude ever to make your point here?
>>343449537
And, to add to your good point, there are a metric fuckload of games, both with and without story.
I mean really, even if nobody on /v/ ever bitched about a certain few games, this would still be a wildly fast board, just because of the sheer and growing number of games out there.
>>343448854
but he's not saying only those can be good. he's saying if those are your favorite then you must have a limited amount of stories or be limited to just video game stories to think those are good. if you read books or even watch movies/tv shows, you'll find stories way more complex, deep and most likely enjoyable.
video games really do have garbage stories, I hate to admit. I want them to have much deeper stories but right now they really do not.
>>343449168
Choose your own adventure books have branching trails, you're still worming your way through till the end.
This is different from a videogame which given the freedom of the gameplay could have an infinite number of ways to go about something.
>>343444831
One of my favorite stories rides the line between being both vidya and porn.
>>343438772
all (or most) video games have narratives to them. even abstract puzzle games like tetris have some narrative. However, narrative does not equal plot. The problem, and what makes so many people think that stories and games don't mix, comes when a game's narrative and plot aren't set up to mix well. It's kind of baffling because there's many designers out there that do understand the importance of narrative in games, whether they realize it or not, but can still screw up the plot so badly, it actually gets in the way of the game itself.
Look at any mario game and you'll see the hero's journey. The gameplay shows Mario overcoming all manner of challenges as he develops his platforming skills. By the end of it, Mario (really, the player) is so skilled in his abilities, he's able to overcome the challenges Bowser presents, and ultimately triumphs over him. That's a narrative. Bowser kidnapping peach by luring her with a cake is a plot that has nothing to do with the game. It merely serves as an excuse to get to the gameplay (or the narrative of Mario vs Bowser) as quickly as possible.
>>343438772
But if people didn't get to lean on stories then people would be forced to innovate gameplay and AI.
That's way too hard for developers.
>>343448287
Giving the player interactivity undermines an authored story which is why games will never be good for traditional narratives. A good authored story requires a high level of control from the author and relinquishing that control to the player only makes the story worse. However a game with little interactivity or player freedom is a bad game. Either the story is a nuisance that constantly interrupts the gameplay and limits gameplay options or the gameplay completely undermines the narrative and prevents it from being told well.
A good authored story and a good video game are fundamentally in conflict with each other. As you say the best stories in video games are the ones generated by the gameplay. Emergent stories are a unique strength of the medium while trying to cram in traditional narratives is just holding it back.
Even my litfag writer friend who tries to defend story in games came to realise that actually almost all of his favourite games are mechanics driven. His favourite stories to come from video games have actually ended up being emergent stories from Crusader Kings 2 and Dwarf Fortress. And he admits that his games that have the best pre-written stories are largely not actually very good as video games.
And while I recognise the issues with ad populum arguments it really is not a mistake or coincidence that the games that change and progress the medium and generally sell the most are largely almost pure mechanics experiences. Mechanics driven experiences are the ones exploring and utilising the strengths of the medium and pushing boundaries.
>>343449562
What discussion? You're just confusing me by acting like a retard. How would you get " you're admitting that actual gameplay relies on things outside of it to be good" just because I judge gameplay on things other than glitches? Do you seriously play games and think to yourself "slash this game has had no bugs so far, 10/10 gameplay here"?
>>343449709
Again, I think you guys are putting books and movies on a pedestal. Yeah, the stories there are conveyed better, but there are stories in video games that has as much, if not more impact on its players than books and movies have on its readers/watchers.
>all the people in the thread saying that there are actually games with good, thought provoking stories
seriously? Go to /lit/ and read a fucking book you plebs, were you the kids that always tried to argue that comic books were real books too?
>>343446930
Seriously that game was the shit, and also pretty fucking hard.
>>343445986
If you stretch the definition of "story" to it's breaking point, perhaps
>>343449873
Because gameplays relies on things like art and sound assets to be engaging, so it is no longer pure gameplay unless you're playing a game that is strictly number based.
>>343438772
>"REEE FALLOUT 4 SUCKS, THE STORY IS SHIT"
>"REEE WHERES CHAPTER 3, MUH STORY"
biggest. fucking. hypocrites. on the internet.
>>343449924
Just save us the fucking time and say "Hurff durff muh Mother 3" and fuck off
>>343449746
>you're still worming your way through till the end
And you won't know which ending you'll get until you get there, and you get there via various ways.
Also very few games aside from Dwarf Fortress have the "infinite" number of ways to go about things that you're talking about.
A vast majority of video games, from virtually every generation, eventually comes to a conclusion. No matter what you play, you're almost always worming your way to the end, even if that end is the top spot on a scoreboard.
>>343448542
>A good game with a bad story is still a good game, and a bad game with a good story is still a bad game.
completely wrong. there is no good games with bad stories. bad stories are just insult to players. that's all.
stories are reasons keep player play the game.
if they are good enough, they could be whole reason of playing.
like to the moon. it's just a rpgmaker game. but it has a great story.
>>343449831
>Even my litfag writer friend who tries to defend story in games came to realise that actually almost all of his favourite games are mechanics driven
Woah now I'm convinced
>>343449709
Sorry, but I disagree. Everytime I ask for people to give me an example of what they would collectively call better stories, someone always posts the /lit/ recommended shit list, 80% of which is made up of books I read in middle school that actually weren't all that great.
I have to agree with that other anon. People who say shit like "Video games don't have good stories" (and yes, by saying that 'your perception of a good story is limited' is saying that exact same thing), are people who are of the mindset that video games are still in the pong era.
>>343448946
It's exactly what you're saying, you stupid shit. Reread your own posts.
>>343449709
>he's not saying that videogame stories can't be good BUT HE'S SAYING VIDEOGAME STORIES CAN'T BE GOOD
>ONLY BOOKS AND HOLLYWOOD MOVIES CAN HAVE GOOD STORIES BITCH
Kill yourself.
>>343450104
>using the /v/ is one person fallacy
>>343450104
>a poorly written story any way comparable to the lack of story in a previously story-heavy series
A decent novel is still better than a video game with a great story.
>>343449558
>best-selling movies are all AAA dreck
Well, I guess movies don't need good writing either then, huh.
>>343450121
Wasn't even thinking of mother three. I was actually thinking of Shadow of the Colossus.
>>343445328
>Implying Tetris isn't a LOTR sized epic
It's like you've never PLAYED the games.
>>343449831
this
>>343449924
yes stories in games can have a large impact on players but those are typically from players who haven't experienced many stories. I know I used to be heavily impacted by video game stories until I got more into literature and then looking back was baffled out how poorly written the stuff that used to impact me was.
I think the experience of games can impact us tremendously, but not because of the story, but from the gameplay and atmosphere the game creates, with the story being a background element that helps with that atmosphere. The thing with movies is that it can create also an extremely dramatic environment that impacts us with so much control over the experience. With books, the control is partially the writer and largely the reader, as we direct the narrative ourselves while the writer guides us and in this way, if you have a strong imagination, you can tailor the direction exactly as you like, creating an enormous impact if the writer is guiding you well.
Games have potential but the writing needs to be tailored to the type of game it is, along with being well-written, which is very tricky and so far almost no games have come close to impact me the way books/plays have.
>>343449558
Popularity =/= Quality
>>343449831
>. Either the story is a nuisance that constantly interrupts the gameplay and limits gameplay options or the gameplay completely undermines the narrative and prevents it from being told well.
That is entirely your personal taste. Many people do not consider story a distraction or a hindrance.
Stopped reading at your first paragraph. You don't give a shit what the truth is, as long as you feel like you're right.
>>343438772
Story in a videogame is like story in porn. It's expected to be there, but it's not as important
>>343450097
>Because gameplays relies on things like art and sound assets to be engaging
Why do you even think that? What game did you play that suddenly became shit when you muted it? And obviously we need graphics to communicate information to the player, but quality of the gameplay is not dependent on the quality of the art assets. Good gameplay is made up of so much more than just art, sound and polish, you sound like you've playground 2 or 3 games in your life
> unless you're playing a game that is strictly number based.
Now what the fuck are you talking about
Videogames should inspire themselves more on toys and tabletop games than on movies and books.
Mind you, toys and tabletop games can have a story too. A story than never gets on the way of the ludus or gameplay.
>>343450470
You are over a hundred posts late.
>>343438772
Games have the player move from Point A, the starting point, to Point B, the goal. Stores in games give purpose and value to the transition from Point A to Point B.
>>343450131
>stories are reasons keep player play the game.
*the reason you play games, because you have shit taste
>>343450503
We're living in an era where there are about as many games inspired by toys and tabletop games as there are games inspired by movies and books, and various mixtures of all four.
You're making a wish that's already come true.
>>343450540
Fuck me tight in the ass anon
>>343450104
The problem with Beth's fallout stories is that they change the overall atmosphere from the dystopian vibe used in the original and NV to a more wacky comedic vibe.
>>343450430
Bad quality games don't get popular. You don't have to like the popular games but your opinion on them does not reflect the quality, it reflects your tastes
>>343450470
then why do you retards hate fallout 4 then?
the only thing you ever complain about is the story, why hate on something that "isn't important"?
>>343449542
>>he claims to be a video game enthusiast
>using that sentence urionically
also
>getting serious carmack after r.a.g.e. and mega textures failure
>listening the one of centurie's biggest fuck ups
also
>giving shit about anything said by carmack the engineer
carmack isn't an artist, he is an engineer. he doesn't know shit about art.
>>343438772
i wonder what his head feels like
>>343450647
Only if you take a shit and clean your ass out by the time I get there. I see one fucking speck of brown, you will not live to see the next morning.
>>343450131
>there is no good games with bad stories
One could make the argument that there's no game with GOOD stories.
Seriously, it wouldn't be hard.
Get someone properly qualified to do a literary analysis of the Metal Gear Solid series. Their head would explode.
Or, like, literally any JRPG.
Good stories in video games are few and far between.
There's tons of games with decent storylines. Games are very good at keeping the audience entertained at the very least, even if a lot of details don't add up, and I can't think of a time when I've ever dropped a game because the story was bad, so long as the rest of it was compelling enough.
But I can count the games with legitimately good stories on one hand.
>>343438772
John Carmack summed it up best.
Story in videogames is like story in porn, it doesn't have to be any good, but it's expected to be there.
Gameplay and Story shouldn't be in opposition.
Metal Gear Solid 3 has very lighthearted and weird gameplay that is technically sound.
The story is a fairly serious take on a Bond film. The two halves are juxtaposed which causes it to be such a masterpiece.
>>343450695
>Bad quality games don't get popular.
So you haven't played one popular game that was shit?
>>343450725
Because it's clearly trying to be story-driven, so it's clearly expected to be given some effort into it.
I don't hate F4 for the story alone, everything in the game is shit
>>343450728
>one mistake invalidates all of carmacks successes
>>343450831
Nah. Carmack sucks at story, so he just says that to excuse his poor writing. Also, you're like 150 posts too late into the discussion.
>>343450746
>muh opinions are facts
Why haven't you killed yourself into the /lit/ circlejerk yet?
>>343450831
Literally over a hundred posts late, and his analogy is full of shit. Modern porn often is entirely without story. We don't get pizza delivery guys anymore for the most part. These days it's "Hi, I'm a cumdumpster and I'm gonna take a dick."
>>343450831
Hilarious + original
>>343450831
You're over a hundred and twenty posts too late, bruh. Even this guys came before you did
>>343450470
>>343450448
Not him but are you saying that you believe that there is an objective mathematical correct answer or "truth" as you put it? I mean how is you not agreeing with him not just your personal taste? I'm sure he's quite aware that he was giving his opinion, do you think that opinions are somehow rude and invalid?
>>343450695
Yes, they do.
I'm not trying to be a "hurr durr if its popular its shit" faggot, but there are many popular games, movies and songs that are popular and fucking suck.
Or are you telling me that things like CoD or the latest AC games are good just because they are popular?
>>343441252
>Video games stories by and large are pretty bad
>>343450918
Nig, we're talking about the best selling games OF ALL TIME. This isn't just "The newest CoD sold a billion in its first week!" type stuff.
Are you seriously going to sit here and tell me Tetris is bad?
Or Super Mario Bros?
>>343450746
>One could make the argument that there's no game with GOOD stories.
That person would immediately get blown the fuck out with a multitude of examples of why and how he's wrong.
Anybody can make an argument about anything. Doesn't mean that argument isn't gonna be entirely full of shit.
One of the problems with games is that they are basically an awkward merger of tabletop/pnp games, movies, and somewhat books (maybe more plays).
Its entirely fine for a story to have a narrative of events that you play out as that character. Not everything needs super character creation modes or control over every aspect. Some games, yes, only need a base 'motivation' to do something. No one cares about SM64's story about the princess, its silly and no one cares much at all.
Take out psychonauts storytelling and you get a mediocre platformer with decently crafted environments.
Games stories can be overblown, its mostly because you can get sucked into a games world quite well if you enjoy the story. Its "impact' is stronger because you are more engaged. Bioshock 1 was not an amazingly game in raw gameplay, but it was known for that "I must see/know more" desire it gave. This is why, despite Bioshock 2 being a mechanically better game...more people generally side with 1.
Story in videogames is like story in porn, it doesn't have to be any good, but it's expected to be there. - John Carmack
>>343440090
Nothing ever started as a good story telling medium. Books didn't start off like the Tale of Genji, Journey to the West, or The Divine Comedy, they started off as ways to keep records and chronolog history. Movies started off just as mundane, as did music.
Video games have adapted just fine. There's plenty of good stories out there. Good writing can only make a game better.
>>343451026
No, I just don't think an opinion should be stated as fact, as the post heavily implied.
The entire first paragraphed as though he were stating common universal knowledge.
>>343451116
Wii Sports is one of the most popular games of all time
>>343450495
But quality of the game does depend on how engaging it is, which depends on assets besides just the numbers running behind the scene.
>>343450728
>carmack isn't an artist, he is an engineer
This. You don't go to someone like John Carmack for what kind of story your game should have or even how your game should look, you go to him when you want to figure out how to create a more realistic physics engine or less-intensive volumetric lighting.
>>343451247
Are you trying to say Wii Sports is bad?
Because you'd be wrong.
>>343451147
Nearly 200 posts late, buddy.
>>343450918
I've played popular games I didn't like. Doesn't mean they're shit.
>>343451147
Okay, by this point, just fuck off
>>343451247
Yeah, because it was really fucking good.
The statement that video games don't "need" a story is absolutely, unarguably true. Tetris, for example, is considered by many to be the greatest video game of all time, but there is no narrative or lore, only the game play. The base gameplay of Tetris is so enjoyable and well designed that the game is still just as popular and well known as it was when it came out.
That doesn't mean that stories shouldn't be attempted, but modern game developers have largely been making the same mistake of imitating film without really utilizing the unique storytelling tools a video game provides. Games that just railroad you forward through a linear path or series of cutscenes with little focus on gameplay may be great stories, but they are not great games. A video game is not a movie, it's a video game. Many people like to call these story-oriented games "mature," and claim they are "moving the medium forward," when all that is really happening is game developers have been largely unable, or uninterested in using the advantages of the medium to effectively tell a meaningful story, with a few exceptions.
These games that do manage to tell a story through gameplay, however, are often held up as some of the greatest games ever made. Shadow of the Collosus, for example, perfectly articulates it's themes of loneliness by giving the player a large and desolate world to wander around. The main character's stumbling, awkward animations reinforces the players notion that he is just an ordinary guy, driven to do the impossible under his circumstances. The overwhelming size of the bosses, and initial lack of knowledge of how to defeat them puts the players directly in his shoes. The player directly lives his struggle and assumes complete control over his actions. A great story is told with little to no dialogue and sparse cutscenes. It's unfortunate that more games completely ignore this approach, and instead try to turn video games into a medium they aren't.
>>343449831
You don't think Psychonauts blends narrative and gameplay mechanics well?
>>343451251
>which depends on assets besides just the numbers running behind the scene
There's no way you could argue that this is true for every game. Are you really trying to say that game mechanics can't be interesting on their own?
>>343440090
This. 90% of the time the writing in vidya is either extremely generic or derivative.
>>343438772
It's not the story driven games that is the problem, it's how they are presented and made. Most gaming stories are presented with badly made cutscenes with no proper pacing, cinematography or anything that makes movie interesting, while in the first place games are an unique medium that should not be focusing on taking away the control from the player. It's also not good if you have to walk slowly behind a character or if you are locked in a room for minutes while characters are talking. Best way to tell a story in video games is by player driven interaction and through environment.
It's much smarter that events are going on around the character and the player can observe or even participate in them. Again, video games are the only medium that gives you choice so making decisions and having your outcome on game depending on your actions would be a good way to go about making stories for video games.
Another thing is that a lot of the time the story is disconnected from the gameplay. Imagine a character that would annoy you in-game. He would steal your equipment and come around to beat the shit out of you every now and then. Then you would have a chance to fight him fair and you would completely hate that annoying dick. Now imagine the same character, but he only mildly insults you in a cutscene or he steals your girlfriend. The impact achieved through mechanics is much better. Same goes for friendly characters, people really like Solaire for example because he is not only the most positive guy in Dark Souls, but because he can help you through hard encounters first time through the game. He's there for a lot of hard bosses. Or let's say Sam in Uncharted 4, I didn't like him much through story but in one section Nate is left behind and Sam could escape on his own, but he throws himself off the roof while you are fighting and helps you escape even though he is fucked now as well - just through mechanics of the game, no cutscenes, no dialogue needed.
>Video games don't need stories!
That part of the statement is correct though. There are plenty of good games that don't have much of a story to speak of, or if it does it's very unimportant.
>>343451257
It's like asking the caterer what he thought about the soundtrack. He couldn't give less of a shit.
>>343438772
Agreed.
>>343450728
This. Some people are only experts in one topic, like many scientists. Physicists, Chemists, and Engineers fight all the time whenever one tries to talk about another field. Or money-changers talking about politics, or artists talking about sound design, and so on. Just because a person does one thing really well doesn't mean he does other things really well.
I wouldn't ask Shakespeare for math advice, and I wouldn't ask Isaac Newton for literary advice.
>>343451325
>>343451352
What's good about it? It's literally a tech demo, a shallow piece of shit party game at best
nobody here is actually talking about story or narrative, they're talking about plot.
Games have stories/narratives that happen through their mechanics, it's simply an "alternate way" of telling a story than other mediums. In a book, you experience a story by reading it, in art, you experience a story by observing it, in music, you experience a story by listening to it. Film is sort of a combination, you experience it mostly through watching, though there's plenty to listen to and sometimes even read.
Video games are a relatively new medium, and as such, they have a different way of experiencing their narratives. Game's mechanics and gameplay ARE the narrative. The problem comes when a game's plot is not expressed by its gameplay. This is why they feel like they're "in the way" or even "tacked on." Just think of all the times there were cutscenes in games where if you were actually playing at those points, you'd easily be able to say, stop the enemy from kidnapping the damsel, etc.
>>343451430
They absolutely are, otherwise there would be no games in the first place. But they quickly fall apart when that's all there is: you clicking a button and watching numbers decrease.
>>343451065
Opinions don't reflect quality, they reflect taste.
>>343451451
>It's much smarter that events are going on around the character and the player can observe or even participate in them. Again, video games are the only medium that gives you choice so making decisions and having your outcome on game depending on your actions would be a good way to go about making stories for video games.
And this doesn't mean they need to go and make thousands of different endings and choices. Look at games like Shadow of Mordor, where you can kinda make your own stories with the generals, or at Civilization, where your behaviur has consequences and you can either achieve peace and harmony or just be dick to everyone and kill them. That's a fast example of what I mean with making stories on your own.
>>343446051
>Remove the gameplay
You still have a video game. See: Visual novels
>inb4 VNs aren't games
>>343451247
It might too simple for some of the more "elite gamers" who regard it as "casual shit". But it's certainly not bad, it was extremely well made and went on to completely change the face of gaming and cause every major console manufacturer to change their strategy.
Carmack: Story in videogames is like story in porn, it doesn't have to be any good, but it's expected to be there.
Romero: tru
Can we just agree on one thing?
Cutscenes are bad.
Cutscenes can suck a big fat one.
Like, who thought that was a good idea? And why has it persisted for TWENTY GODDAMN YEARS?
>Hey, I've got an idea! Let's make our game STOP BEING A GAME for long enough to tell a part of the story?
Like, imagine if movies turned off the screen so you could better listen to the dialogue.
That would suck, right?
So why do games get a pass for completely negating their own purpose to shove some ultimately pointless information in your face?
From a gaming magazine around 1995, when they used to be good, pic related
>>343451702
>Visual novel
>Eye book
>Video game
>Video game
Not hard to understand the difference here
>>343451636
>gameplay is dependent on graphics because you need to be able to see the game!
Woah great point
>But they quickly fall apart when that's all there is: you clicking a button and watching numbers decrease.
You should probably play something other than a clicker before posting on /v/
![51dwTbSzd2L._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/RcE4bp3.jpg "51dwTbSzd2L._SX323_BO1,204,203,200_[1].jpg")
>Story is told linearly
Eat shit and die, you clueless plebeians.
>>343451915
Just like gameplay depends on story to move shit along.
>>343451702
VNs AREN'T games though.
Like, catagorically.
I like VNs, but come on man.
There is that whole weird blurry line between VN and game that is inhabited by stuff like Telltale and stuff, and you could argue about The Walking Dead, but Tsukihime and Higurashi are very decidedly not video games.
>>343451897
>Text adventure games are also now not games
Memes are not allowed
>>343451537
it could be very revelant topics.
like georges melies and lumiere brothers.
lumiere brothers invented camera but they lacked artistic values. they were filming just objects. there was no story, no artistic, nothing at all.
but georges melies invented cinema and films. he used all creativity and then movies became popular.
you need artists. that's all.
>>343451704
> "elite gamers" who regard it as "casual shit"
It literally is. Don't act like Wii boxing was one of the best games ever made.
> completely change the face of gaming
Purely because of how popular it was
>>343452002
VNs are vidya, though. Even the rulemakers here have decided that they are. That's why there is a VN general on /vg/.
>>343451897
>video game
>movie contest
If you can honestly say you enjoy the story of a videogame more than the story of a film, you are stunted. And I'm talking pure story, sure it's fun to play a game and be a part of the story. But can you honestly say the plots, characters, writing in general and cinematography of a game is better than a movie? Or that the writing is better than a good book. That's not to say there aren't exceptionally well written games, or exceptionally bad movies. But that's the point, they're exceptions. In general your time is better spent watching a cohesive 2 hour film that moves the plot consistently, than you are playing a game that has to try and make a story while also giving the player some way to interact (excluding telltale type games) Even some of the better examples like uncharted have to deal with limitations, they want to tell a story but it's hard to deliver all that dialogue while you're killing truckloads of people, so they have you climb up a mountain so they can give you the dialogue there so you'll be focused on it but you're also technically playing the game by mashing x to climb. Last of Us did even better, but they still had to break up gameplay to have you walk around for a bit so they could deliver dialogue. The story and that dialogue helped and made the game better, but a movie is still the better alternative in terms of just absorbing a good story, it's more concise, it's more focused, and it doesn't have to try to give the viewer something to do other than watch and listen to the story it wants to tell. A story can help a game, but it doesn't make a game. And if you believe you are playing games for the story you're either lying to yourself, being a contrarian, or you legitimately have no idea what a good story is and you probably have the mind of a child.
>>343438772
>https://youtu.be/uBHGs8HoYuo?t=12m7s
>watch the video above
>Stan Lee comes to God of War 3 dev team
>he says that he likes writing dialogues, he wants to make a game with toooons of dialogue
>sarcastically remarks yeah that would sell really well
>everyone laughs at his silly joke
>fast forward 8 years
>God of War: God of War is announced
>it's a game where you walk around slowly behind your son and talk to him
Yeah fuck you Stan Lee.
>>343452002
Is Phoenix Wright a VN or just a very plot heavy game
>>343452002
If VNs aren't video games how do you explain they come out in video game boxes?
>>343451778
Yeah man, I loved those bits in HL2 where you literally stand there and watch people talk, cutscenes can suck my DICK bro! So glad this became the industry standard, now we get to walk and talk instead of being able to watch a skippable visually interesting cutscene
>>343452132
Again, the execution is definitely better, but the overall impact and what you take away from it differs, and there are some video games that are absolutely on par with cinema and literature in the impact their narrative has.
>>343452132
>If you can honestly say you enjoy the story of a videogame more than the story of a film, you are stunted.
And if you think your opinion is worth half a shit, you should kill yourself.
>>343451995
Play some games and come back
>>343451778
Agreed. Cutscenes are a crutch used by bad writers who don't know how to write for games and are in complete fundamental conflict with the medium.
Also I have a bone to pick with Half Life 2 related to that because many people praise that for not having cutscenes when it totally fucking does. Just because you're still in the engine and can look around if you're locked in a room with nothing to interact with while characters talk at you for 10 minutes then it's basically a fucking cutscene.
I'd rather cutscenes were gone altogether but I'd certainly prefer a traditional cutscene where I can fuck off and go make a sanwich while a video plays than the infuriating falsely interactive prison hells of Half Life 2s cutscenes.
>>343451778
Nope. Seen a lot of really good cutscenes over the years and never really understood why others didn't generally enjoy them.
>>343450923
>everything in the game is shit
gameplay is great, music is great, atmosphere is great
what could you possibly be talking about? the level up system?
>MUH SKILLS
>MUH BUILDS
fuck off with that shit, if im going to be level 120, i want to feel as such, overpowered and shit, not be limited by stupid numbers that don't make any sense
>>343452285
>Walk and talk
Oh god no. That's even worse.
No, it's all bad.
If you have to detract from your game at all, in any way for any reason, to tell a story, you have failed as a game designer.
>>343451995
>Just like gameplay depends on story to move shit along.
No
>>343450996
>If people like you were the only ones tasked with moving games forward, we'd all be playing DOOM IX: Back To Hell Again.
why couldn't i get this universe
>>343452161
For me it's just plot heavy, i know they're often classified as VNs but since you have to look for items, examine them and use them during dialogue they remind me of games like Syberia
>>343452374
>And if you think your opinion is worth half a shit then you should kill yourself.
But that's just like, your opinion, man.
>>343452384
>>343452513
Nice retort. Glad to see a meaningful contribution to the discussion.
>>343452475
>never really understood why others didn't generally enjoy them
Because when I'm sitting down to play a game, watching a cutscene isn't playing a goddamn game.
As someone who prefer strategy games I have to say gameplay is hundreds of times more important than any semblance of story. All my favorite games don't even have stories in the strictest sense.
I've experienced games where mediocre/repetitive/cliche gameplay is carried by a story I'm interested in, but that doesn't make a great game.
>>343452476
>gameplay is great
Seriously? What's did you like, the bullet sponge enemies and the shallow, derivative combat mechanics?
>>343452540
Yeah, many sections have old point and click adventure feels to them
>>343452634
Yeah, I get the core concept. It's just not a view I share. Considering the fame of the Metal Gear series, I'm pretty clearly not alone.
I guess I like watching performances and playing video games. Maybe I just find too much enjoyment in the entertainment I consume.
How would the RPG genre even work without a story?
>>343452623
You are implying that every game is story driven, which is obviously wrong to anyone who has played more than 2 games. Again, you should go play some games and come back
>>343440090
as someone who has read a fuckton of books this is entirely true, there's nothing wrong with a good story in vidya and certainly there are exceptions but vidya should be about gameplay because that's the medium it excels at
>>343452540
And they also have defined fail states.
>You can take away the story/art and it's still a game!
Perhaps, but it's a really shitty one.
Let's take Kingdom Hearts as an example. You have two choices. You can either A) play a version that's strictly gameplay where you control gray boxes that run around hitting other boxes, with no artwork, dialog or story incentives or B) watch Kingdom Hearts - The Movie.
Now, both are really shitty choices, but I sure as shit would always pick B, since at least I get SOMETHING out of it. Why would it ever be fun controlling gray boxes?
I think most of us can agree that the best games strike a good balance between story/gameplay/presentation. What I don't get is people's obsession with this idea of "pure" gameplay. Even old arcade game like Pacman and Pong has a semblance to a story and designs, as minimal as they were. A game with no sort of story or design incentive is just numbers on a screen.
>>343451778
No, fuck you. Just because they're not to your taste doesn't mean they're bad.
>>343452797
See: Pokemon
>>343452161
not him, but what's interesting to me about Phoenix Wright, (and from what I can tell, makes it stand out from other visual novels) is that it's the gameplay (however bare) that moves the story along. The narrative of the game is figuring out whodunit and putting the evidence together, this is all expressed through the gameplay. The plot, though it may or may not take longer than the gameplay, (and hell, sometimes it takes me forever to solve the cases) serves as a reward for the player's ingenuity. You literally advance the plot by playing the game, which is why I think the PW series is one of the best series in terms of marrying game and plot.
>>343452797
Eternal grinding.
>>343452797
Dungeon crawler
![1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/O6RAXYA.jpg "1].jpg")
