3.3.5 was the last time where classes not only felt different from each other without unnecessary gimmicks, but it was also the last time where talent specs felt different from each other within the class. While Burning Crusade had better end-game content and World PvP, WotLK was where Blizzard hit the mark on their classes, only to throw it all away for the simpler talent trees.
Reminder to avoid Blizzard products
They re casual garbage and killing their respective genres
>SL/SL build
no, fuck you
>>343400029
>le every tree had more than one worthwhile combination of talents meme
stop posting anytime
>>343400205
Care to explain what that even means? You don't have to like something, but people toss the term "casual garbage" at anything they dislike and at this point, the term has absolutely no meaning.
>>343400029
>WotLK locks
>every single using the boring cookie cutter three button destro build
>with an occasional hybrid into demo for raid wide spell damage buff
No, thanks, I'll take MoP Warlock over this any day.
>>343400205
Can you name a non-casual game released in the past decade?
>>343400029
you are a fucking huge humongous faggot who didn't proapbly fucking play back then or you were a casual shitter stuck leveling the whole fucking expansion
There was no fucking decision making, you looked up a fucking cookiecutter build and that was it for the whole patch, you did not fucking change it at all ever you fucking cockgobbler fuck off with your rose tinted glassess im so fucking tired of fucking shits like you who don't even fucking know what they're talking about.
Most people went for the cookie cutter builds anyway so in the long run there really was not much variety at all. However I still prefer the talent tree style rather than "pick ur spells lol" enema.
>>343400554
B-but muh illusion of choice!!
>there are people in this thread who trusted WoW elitists instead of finding the secret hybrid specs
No wonder no one takes /v/ seriously.
>>343400708
>secret hybrid specs
nice meme m8
Even if you found something halfway decent it wouldn't be optimal making you a casual shitter
>>343400554
and it's better right now? kys you fucking faggot YOU never played in vanilla or bc.
>>343400817
>kys
underage spotted
>>343400708
I remember hybrid warrior in tbc.
>>343400851
>non-capital letters and a lack of punctuation
Underage spotted.See how easy this is?
>>343400708
that hybrid shit was only good in PVP.
>>343400959
>playing pve in wow
>avoid fire stuff
lmao mate pve is the most casual shit in wow.
>>343400554
Sure if you wanted to minmax you had to spec a certain way but every once in a while it shat out something unique like shockadins or stunheralds.
>>343400029
>Wanting this cookie cutter shit back
Nah man, i rather they didnt prune abilities instead.
Time-altering firemage with 10 pyroblasts in a row was fucking amazing in MoP
>>343401068
pvp and pve are both dead and buried anywayalong with the game, goes without even saying.
>>343401069
Those weren't "unique" specs. That was people abusing loopholes in game mechanics which all got hotfixed.
>>343401068
>playing pvp in wow
>use the fotm meta until it's nerfed next season
>>343401069
Stunherald was in TBC not in Wotlk you motherfucking moron. that shit was the GOTO SPEC AS A WARRIOR IN PVP. FUCK OFF CASUAL SHIT.
>>343401274
>use the fotm meta until it's nerfed next season
Thats what nu-wow pvp is in vanilla everything was viable.
>>343400029
>tfw warlocks were so powerful in vanilla they were nerfed all the way to Cata
I hated that Metamorphosis made you a demon so pallies could feel good about themselves.
>>343401202
>>343401202
pvp was actually pretty balanced in mop until woD completely ruined it.
>>343400554
>you looked up a fucking cookiecutter build
>you looked up
Speak for yourself, faggot.
>>343401409
That's what nostalgiafags actually believe in.
>>343401274
>not playing as disc/assass vs warrior/druid and having 1 hour long arena matches where the entire meta is dispelling the druid's innervate.
good, fun, great times.
>>343401453
>wl
>powerful in vanilla
whut mate
>>343400817
yes its better right now, right now in the game there isn't a single spec that LITERALLY CAN'T FUNCTION IN PVP OR PVE. there were classes and builds and specs that were downright broken and garbage and never played vanilla and fucking TBC. in fucking vanilla most of the healer gameplay resolved around using downranked spells since max level spells cost too much mana becuase the balance of the game was complete motherfuckign ass. there were only a handful of viable dps specs too. fuck off you unimaginably huge cocksucking faggot. don't you ever fucking talk to me about not having played that hamsterwheel again.
>>343401453
>I hated the flavor mechanics that got in the way of """balance"""
That's why WoW died.
>>343401483
oh sorry, i skipped MoP, i technically quit WoW in Cata. i still play with a friend every now and then, but nothing high end.
>>343401591
spot the druid cuck.
>>343401648
Surprisingly the Pandaland was the (short-lived) Renaissance of WoW after Cata. Then it went back to shit and beyond in WoD.
Played the PTR yesterday, tried out BM and MM Hunter.. what the living fuck have they done? They removed even MORE of the fucking abilities (shit was already retardedly slimmed down in WoD and why I quit).
It's like they took all the abilities from ONE spec and split them between 2. Fucking hell.
>>343401526
Demo warlocks in vanilla were the MOST OP spec in the entire game
>>343401747
True PvP in WoD constantly sucked 3v3 in Panda was beautiful.
>>343401782
yeah demo with best in slot everything.
you couldn't be running around in blues and greens though.
we used a Demo lock to tank one of the twins on Twin Emps.
fuck i miss how epic 40-man Vanilla was...
>>343401648
you missed out everything was viable depending on what other specs you had on your team.
even arcane.
>>343401767
>BM and MM
Didn't they also make Surv a melee spec?
>WotLK was where Blizzard hit the mark on their classes
I would say it was an overall downgrade. Yes, more classes became more involved to play, but there was heavy degree of homogenization (not quite to the extent of subsequent expansions, but almost all unique buffs were lost, almost all buffs became raid-wide so party composition no longer mattered, all classes could perform the same tasks with somewhat equal efficiency, and tanks for example suddenly became DPS monsters so the concept of class interdependency was largely lost), healing and tanking were in their worst state ever (infinite mana with tanks being topped off instantly and anything but effective health having little consequence while everything related to grabbing mobs or holding aggro was utterly trivialized) and a lot of classes in general started suffering from being "too powerful" (consider the interaction of ability like Antimagic Shell with Sindragosa's Blistering Cold: instead of having to react in about a second to run far enough to survive, you have 5 seconds to hit AMS, a task that effectively can't be failed at - all the mobility skills, personal cooldowns, self-heals and what have you tend to make things easier).
Hell, despite their "bring player and not the class" philosophy, even in terms of personal DPS, they somehow managed to have similar or worse balance than in TBC. I also think the overall style of PvP got worse (this is an extreme example but demonstrates my problems fairly well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Q5pb-fEQhs) and while the seasons like S8 was pretty good if it wasn't for everyone and their mother running with Shadowmourne, S5 in particular had outrageous balance.
>>343400554
No! I made my own shit gimped build!
>>343401782
>>343401958
MoP was the only time when I, as an Affli main, didn't feel left behind by every other class and even my own class' other specs as well.
>>343401453
Good thing they're getting rid of it.
>>343402032
>even arcane
damn, if only i had stretched it out through that content blackhole Cataclysm.
PVP in Cata demoralized me so bad i quit the game forever.
i think i was just on a really bad server.
>>343400357
>>343400029
It means people are dumb, want instant gratification and everything handed down to them without much hassle. Sure, in the past it wasn't exactly rocket science but it was enough of a challenge to keep a person intrigued and occupied with actually learning about the game. Now it's the opposite of that.
Hence why that poster said "casual garbage", it may sound awful but it's the truth.
>>343402039
The forced e-sport shit killed pvp like WoW was never competitive pvp. But Nu-Blizzard needs to force the e-sport meme on all their casual trash games.
>>343400029
The majority of those trees are passive stats that they eventually rolled into the abilities baseline because of the fact that there were so few meaningful choices.
The new talent trees weren't much better from the old ones with how homogenized they were for each spec. However the legion changes are a massive improvement to the new talent trees. Each spec pretty much has its own unique tree now.
>>343401453
Warlocks were fucking shit in vanilla. They didn't become good until BC and even if you could now out dps mages, the only button you ever needed to press was shadowbolt. Wotlk was the first time they made the warlock interesting to play.
>>343401767
>implying they didn't add more to MM than what was in WoD
Either way survival is infinitely more fun than either BM or MM. Both of those specs feel like garbage now.
>>343401068
>runing around a pilar
>SKILL!
>>343400527
Most fighting games
>Talent trees
>Not doing cookiecutter 90% of the time since everything else is shit
I thought autists had high logical capacity
>>343402054
Yeah dude!!!!!! I loved my elemental mage build it was so WHACK! Cleared everything with that SHIT.
t, vanilla pr0
:^)
>>343402323
I don't care if they folded them all into baseline, getting that 5% extra damage made me feel like my character was actually growing.
>>343402121
yeah Afflic was the carrot on a stick spec in PVE, always chasing the procs in hope you scoot above the boomkin in damage.
>>343402208
once they started removing the fun stuff in PVP, that's when the beginning of the E sport started.
no more popping 2 trinkets, no more windfury procs, no more dispelling warlock dots because boohoo arena, just gay shit change that didn't add any fun after gay shit change.
>>343402386
>>343402384
nu-/v/ arrived
>>343402530
Snapshotting was good, it added depth to combat, so you wouldn't just repeating a simple rotation over and over.
>>343401782
How were they op? they did literally no damage
Affliction would always be at full heatlh
Destro would 3 shot
demon ???
>>343402384
You're not talking to autists you're talking to retards.
>>343400708
I can't find a pre 1.12 talent calculator but I distinctly remember playing what I think was something like 11/??/21 paladin back in vanilla and fucking wrecking
free auto crit heal from holy with mana refund and damage reduction from defense with seal of command from offense. Was very sweet
>>343400029
>playing LoL
>in the current year
wew lad
>>343402563
I'm been here for over 10 years, fagmo. And i've played WoW from vanilla to Cata. But you can keep in your bubble for all i care, just don't spread your head-disease like it's fact
>>343402323
i've been playing hunter for a while now, but i even suffered through alot of wod just becaused i loved survival despite all the shit they removed.
once i heard melee i held off to see how they were going to accomplish it.
i saw it on the ptr and i couldn't have fun with it. i felt as if it was a horrible decision made by blizzard.
the game is already littered with melee classes and you're adding another class and now a spec on top of that.
i can't do it survival was a viable playstyle but now to me i feel as if it sucks, but if you find it fun and enjoyable im not going to shit on your opinion i hope you enjoy it.
i know i won't which is why i unsubbed and am not going to play legion.
>>343402685
i played a really geared retadin in vanilla once. i used to just run around AV and harass people, you couldn't be killed at all, ever, people would just ignore me while i killed them.
until you run into a shaman and it dispels your seals and buffs over and over while having enough GCD to kill you in between dispels, lol.
>>343402741
>keeps posting his tumblr art
>I've been here for over 10 years
>>343402374
Like? Besides KoF and SF4 everything else is press "X" to combo/fatality.
>>343402926
>tumblr art
Amazing
>>343402963
Nice fighting games knowledge, bro.
>>343402729
>playing overwatch
>>343402978
keep going new friend
>>343402963
Kek there is Tekken, VF, SC, KI, GG, VS, and ancient dead games like FF, Vsav, JoJo, etc that are all have some really good games.
>>343400554
you are fucking retarded. thats like saying there should only be 30 cards in hearthstone because everyone should netdeck. i cant beleive blizzard would rather market to shits like you than make good games
>>343402963
>press "X" to combo/fatality
>>343400290
>freedom of choice is bad
kys
>>343403034
>>343403241
Nice reading comprehension bros. We're talking last decade not last century.
>>343403419
>freedom of choice to either be useful or useless
Well, it's choice by definition
>>343401782
depends what patch of vanilla you are talking about
>>343401409
>rogues could kill people naked
>warlocks could perma-cc
>paladins could do nothing
blananced gaem
>>343403419
Freedom of choice doesn't exist when it's a 'choice' between picking a cookie cutter spec or sucking. Trap options are bad for a game.
>>343403606
Are you implying that it's any different now? People will always minmax no matter how much you dumb it down, it's the nature of competitive play.
>>343402626
Then they removed it because they didn't want people to have to think to do rotations.
>>343401069
>minmax
Every online community wants you to minmax even on casual/laid back content or fuck off.
What went wrong?
>>343403606
>implying everyone went max pve or pvp spec and didn't just fuck around with weird builds sometimes
>>343402181
MoP had same-faction world pvp. You could gank your own guild.
Best expansion.
>>343403681
Nope, but it's an issue of shitty balancing rather than something that inherently emerges from the talent system.
>>343403768
>implying they didn't if they wanted to get something done
Nobody cares about the opinions of retards.
>>343402183
I think you dont understand that the people like me who are now 30 and played the older blizzard games like diablo ,starcraft and warcraft1,2,3 now have a job and we cant spend the same amount of time like when we where kids.
I think you have to find a developer that is catering to teenagers or early 20.
>>343403840
Name 10 games that have a talent system not full of trap choices
>>343403718
boil pve down to basic elements and it turns into "don't die" and "hit the big thing until it dies" so all that matters is numbers. there's no good solution that doesn't drastically change the way the game plays.
>>343403997
I would if so many of them weren't obsessed with adding more and more and more content to the game to the point where it became impossible to balance with D2 almost assuredly being at fault.
>>343400554
Idontknowaboutvarrientsinspecs.thepost
I agree with you largely, but it's literally no different now.
>>343402374
Wasn't SF5 dumbed down?
>>343401782
Affliction locks friendo. Buddy orc warlock of mine named Solid on Zul Jin was a high geared raid lock who was a mother fucker at pvp.
I was a rogue and I could only beat him if I vanished death coil perfectly and didnt get faked on hos drain life. These fuckers could heal 300 hp a second with 6k hp pools. Stuff was retarded.
That nigga ended up going to be a Merciless Gladiator. I miss that guy.
>>343400554
Even if cookie-cutter builds were a thing, SOMEONE had to make those builds.
Only noobs used cookie-cutter builds. The raiders that were on the edge of content were always experimenting and crunching numbers in order to create those cookie-cutter builds that everyone else used.
>>343404119
Not really.
There is a lot of debate about it and maybe at an ultra-high level it is but I don't think it's easy to qualify.
A new player would need to spend days of played time just to be awful at the game. One of the more famous pro players said it took him 12 hours to learn how to do a single move consistently.
>>343404159
>Only noobs used cookie-cutter builds. The raiders that were on the edge of content were always experimenting and crunching numbers in order to create those cookie-cutter builds that everyone else used.
no that shit was done before the patches were even released because of data mining
>>343404159
>SOMEONE had to make those builds
It's not fucking rocket science. How simple minded must you be to think it was that hard to figure out in the first place?
>>343404159
>Only noobs used cookie-cutter builds
Did you ever raid anything in your life?
>>343402384
SHE GOT A BOOTY LIKE A CADILLAC
>>343404159
it was raiders and gladiators who were making builds and general playstyles that noobies flocked too because they didn't have an idea how to play their class.
most people who were good knew how their class worked inside an out were able to make their own playstyles that were fun to them.
alot of people seem to be misunderstanding this.
>>343403895
Well except blizzard employees
>>343402384
Well, for starters, I believe most people are speaking in favour of system rather than implementation. When talent trees are ultimately extended versions of garbage ones from vanilla, it should go without saying they don't have much room for novel choices. Consider this, for example: In WotLK the first half of restoration tree was effectively worthless for enhancement shamans (spell pushback reduction or faster Healing Wave cast time aren't exactly worthwhile when your Maelstrom Weapon casts are instant) because those talents were virtually unchanged from vanilla, but what about if the talent trees were revamped and you instead had talents such as Improved Chain Heal or new talents like increased proc chance for Lightning Overload/Maelstrom Weapon/Earthliving: dual-Earthliving enhancement could very well have been a niche spec that might have allowed you to drop one healer while doing more DPS than a dedicated healer would. Or possibly a DPS build that might have been situationally better than elemental subspec (say, on heavy movement fights).
Just because Blizzard scrapped talents instead of trying to fix them doesn't mean the system itself was bad. In fact, they deliberately gutted all hybrid builds if they popped up so it seems to me the lack of novel/situational builds is rather deliberate.
Now, it's true that the nature of games like WoW is such that you can always find the optimal way of doing things. The objective is to drop the health of the enemy (be it an NPC or a player) to 0 and avoid the same happening to you and in any specific circumstance there is one optimal way to do that. However, that applies to every specialization system so unless your alternative is total removal of customization, it's hardly a criticism of talent trees. Moreover, the general way talent trees were implemented have a number of other benefits.
(Continuing)
>>343404159
>the raiders
The people creating builds have always done so by sheet math calculations. They weren't just throwing on random fucking talents and hoping it would work.
Vanilla and BC was probably the easiest times to do this since rotations, talents, and mechanics were relatively simple compared to now.
Now a days its pretty much all done through programming simulations since it's more accurate.
>>343405850
Firstly, you were committed to the build and couldn't change it on a whim. If you can change your specialization for every encounter, it ceases to be a specialization and now you truly are just mindlessly following theorycrafting rather than making a decision of what exact type of optimized build you want to use (like single target DPS vs AoE DPS vs utility build). Conversely, it rewards players that do go through the extra mile to optimize their characters for the task at hand. I can think plenty of examples, even some quite extreme choices (like 37/0/34 warrior tanking build for Anub'arak because we lacked Mortal Strike, and I recall similar UA-based builds being used for Hodir as well because of extreme threat requirements) although most were smaller adjustments (like protadins taking Reckoning for Brutallus because Brutallus doesn't have parry hasten), and in PvP where you don't know precisely what enemies you're going to face, there was further more variety.
Secondly, "novel" builds that end up being the cookie-cutter (or one of the cookie-cutter) builds did pop up. Sometimes they were fairly intuitive and easily theorycrafted out (like Felguard/Emberstorm that was good in some WotLK patches) but they did offer extra variety, but sometimes they were discovered in the middle of a patch without any apparent change making them ideal (like HARP spec for rogues in TBC). It might not be very common but the game is in dire straits if it's impossible to even experiment with something unorthodox.
(Continuing)
>>343405940
>>343405850
Thirdly, you can't just instantly know which build is optimal. Someone has to crunch the numbers and experiment with the build in practise in order for it to reach the "cookie-cutter" status, and a supposed RPG making players deal with numbers is a good thing. And it's not just people who come up with those optimal builds: there is no definite rule for if unholy DKs in 3.3.5a should use blood subspec, frost subspec or blood subspec with Reaping and each player who wants to perform the best they can has to research this for their given set of gear (and possibly other variables like available buffs if 10-man raiding).
Fourthly, getting talent points each level is a pretty big deal in terms of feeling of progression and character growth. Levelling is also one of the situations where you have the greatest room to experiment and where the optimal choices are less apparent (for example, within this context, frost AoE grind spec truly is equally "viable" to more single target or PvP oriented spec) and players being introduced to a game where they have to think and make choices goes a long way in allowing them to grow as a player.
Man looking at skill trees makes me want to play an MMO. Too bad they're all shit, except maybe skyforge but that shit gets old fast
>>343400029
I don't give a fuck if everything eventually ended up being cookie-cutter, I miss those big ass talent trees. It made every level up enjoyable.
>>343404479
>data mining
>in classic
>>343403963
You're right. But I never had the time to become a hardcore player and I loved that there were parts of the game that I never got to experience - It made the game feel bigger and also added some mythical parts to it. I miss looking at a dragon head in the capital, knowing I would never experience that battle or watching youtube videos of raids that I never got to experience. But I knew if I had the time to time play I would experience the same stuff, that I would get rewarded for dedicating more time to the game - But I chose to spent time on other stuff in real life so I got to see less.
And that's fair. That's how it should be. Now everyone gets to see everything at a rate where you have to play like a few hours a week if you wanna keep away from seeing it all in a matter of months.
They might have gotten a bigger casual fanbase, but at the cost at a more hardcore fanbase and that's a shame and makes WoW have to compete with all the other casual stuff, instead of being unique at being a good casual and hardcore game.
daily reminder: pic related is the opinion of blizzard devs today. its from their newest Q/A session over pvp.
>>343401782
what kind of game were you playing my fiend
demo was even worse than shadow priest
>>343407434
>implying that's what they're afraid of
They're probably more concerned with the fact they'd have to work harder to balance classes with stat differences.
>>343401237
shockadin was even supported by blizzard, they included an option where a healing spell would change to a damage dealing spell for paladins in MoP if i remember.
during the pre-release, when the 5.0 patch came out it was broken as fuck as shockadins were murdering ppl left and right.
i had a great time.
>>343408019
yes. they are afraid to put in actual work. you're right.
>>343408412
>patch comes out
>class is broken as fuck
Sounds like blizzard.
>>343406052
>Fourthly, getting talent points each level is a pretty big deal in terms of feeling of progression and character growth.
This. So much this. One of the worst feelings when leveling an alt is realizing your character is not going to improve for 20+ levels, especially if your next talent is a shitty pvp one. Old talents and even spell ranks really helped in tgis regard.
>>343409685
Not really. Being stuck in doldrums where the only talent points you were getting were going to shitty uninteresting +crit % or damage % talents instead of the ones that actually made things different and having to backtrack to get skills in a game where each level lasted much longer was much worse.
>>343410072
thats his opinion i feel the same as well that it sucks noting that my character is really not improving spec wise every 20 to 10 levels.
>>343410072
"Interesting" talents appeared in the old talent trees too, and I'd rather have 15 1% increases than absolutely nothing for the next 15 levels. Also spell levels were meant that you'd have to make some money while leveling if you didn't have a main already, adding content to the game.
>>343400029
I just realized WotLK gave most class specs their iconic abilities.
I've only played on 3.3.5a private servers but recent decided to try a more recent version so I went from 3.3.5a to WoD.
What the fuck happened? It's like a different game.
Content aside, Cataclysm was actually the true high point of WoW gameplay.
>>343410072
Well, I obviously can't know or change how you personally think about such things, but there's several things to consider:
1. In vanilla/TBC characters weren't very powerful and relatively small improvements did matter. And not necessarily just in terms of beating the mobs but also in factors like downtime. Mages for example had to drink quite regularly so any increase in mana-efficiency was quite noticeable: when you spec into Piercing Ice, you're not just killing mobs 6% faster but your DPM is 6% higher so you can go on longer without drinking and while it might not be the case in endgame raids, both of those effects matter in levelling and when combined, the effect is quite noticeable with investment of 3 talent points.
2. All values were low. A human might not notice a difference between 30% and 35% crit chance but investing in 5% crit talent that increases your crit chance from 5% to 10% doubles the number of crits you get and that is noticeable, as is 5%->10%->15% increase in Frostbite chance for example.
3. Points invested in those "boring" stat talents are concrete and visualized progress towards the fun stuff.
4. Even vanilla had "fun" talents and they've become more common in TBC and WotLK, and there's no reason it couldn't be better than that. Now that the game has been solved, I agree vanilla talents appear to be quite shitty, but I'm speaking in favour of the system, not an implementation of it that didn't fully stand the test of time.
And new skill ranks, especially for casters, were VERY noticeable, and since each level took longer than a dozen minutes, visits to trainers weren't that frequent. Especially when you consider that you weren't obliged to go to trainer every level and veteran players could instead plan their levelling routes with that in mind.
>>343411267
WotLK was the high point of ability bloat, with Cata they started focusing on trying to make every button matter because if they just kept adding more buttons it'd get ridiculous.
So naturally, the final abilities in WotLK became the staples of the new rotations.
>>343400029
I'm so glad you faggots quit.
>look at me, I'm an enhance shaman that went half enhance, half resto. I don't have enough points for maelstrom weapon, I use a shield and I signed up for a dps slot
>why did you kick me?? fuck you, don't tell me how to play the game
>>343411695
It was the high point of endgame pve before they introduced the raid finder but that's pretty much it.
>>343412037
>Especially when you consider that you weren't obliged to go to trainer every level
Most players only visited their trainer when they would get the next rank of their main damage spells, which wasn't very often at all.
>>343412130
KEK
>>343400029
>Oh boy, time for mandatory 5% crit, 5% hit and a bunch of "choices" for spells my class is designed around the expectation of me having
>>343412037
>And not necessarily just in terms of beating the mobs but also in factors like downtime
Which is why it's big talents like Spirit Tap that mattered, not minor shit that would only get you maybe 1 more kill over 30 minutes, which is and always will be the exact kind of stupid fucking bullshit I hate about themepark MMOs.
While it was suboptimal at best titans grip tanking was still hilarious and a lot of fun, and most importantly, for non-heroic raids: IT WORKED
it upsets me because the days of playing a bad but fun spec are over, and no amount of changes blizzard could make to the game will ever bring them back
Other things you'll never see again
>Enhancement shamans with two handed weapons
>Fury warriors with two one-handed weapons
>Wands in endgame
>dual wielding hunters
>warriors pulling mobs with a gun or a bow
these are all (mostly) little aesthetic things which had little impact on the gameplay but it still brings a tear to my eye
>>343414342
>Titan's Grip "tanking"
You were a retarded Fury Warrior that threw a shield on.
>>343414929
It worked, can't argue with results
>>343400271
there was no slsl on wotlk
>>343415085
I mean, I could argue that it worked in non-heroic raiding content and that a lot of other stupid combinations could technically "work" in brain dead content like that.
Could run into heroic dungeons right now as a DPS queueing tank and survive the entire thing easily, but it doesn't make my DPS spec a viable tank and I would only do that because it speeds the run up, not because "but it's fun :^)"
>>343412130
we spoted 3lit3 gamur, thats why I like dungeon finder....no point in talking to idiots, dont like how I roll? fine...I`ll wait for another group.
cunts like you make games pander to casuals, so you can cry on webz
>>343400029
The new talent system
>>343416229
>Could run into heroic dungeons right now
you can tank as healer now, this game is too easy.
But you couldnt do it 'just' like that in Wotlk unless you were in endgame gear.
>improved wands
>>343416229
But could you tank normal HFC as a dps spec?
Or even normal BRF?
The issue here is viability
It would be nice to play some of the old "garbage" without it going entirely against the grain
>>343416742
>ZERO artifact wands in legion
>>343416742
it was fun on healer
>>343417076
>ZERO(0)
Fixed
time to play again, dubs name my paly
>>343416610
Honestly picking between different new abilities and different alterations to existing abilities is much more interesting than dumping five points into something to get 5% extra damage on one ability.
>>343400029
Servers I think I want but clearly dont when ?
>>343400271
>tfw you were affliction for life and loved it
>2v2'd arena with a BM hunter
>finally switched to SL/SL
>effort it rolled face
Good times
>>343417264
IsuckHorseCock
>UNIQUE BUILDS
>old talents
L O L
O
L
>>343400029
Havent seen one of these threads since "pristine servers" got announced. I thought all the nost faggots exausted themselves.
blood elf butt
or night elf butt
>in b4 human
humans have obese fat asses
>>343417494
Pristine servers haven't been announced and apparently Mark Kern and Nostalrius admins convinced Blizzard they'd do proper legacy servers if anything
>>343417613
Yeah I'll believe it when I see it.
>>343417494
I'm not a nostfag but I thought the old talent system worked better than pandaria/draenor
>HOWEVER
Legion somehow extinguished all of my gripes about it
I think it looks better this way
not perfect, but better
>>343416610
The old talent system was great during leveling because you had some progress but at max level you were only choosing certain builds.
It was pretty obvious which talents you should take in the old system.
The old talent-trees were amazing compared to todays few boxes! I mean, a patch rolled out, some talents got changed, and you ran over to elitistjerks, copied a build and used that until next patch. Never had so much freedom in my talent-choices ever!
:^)
>>343400959
Yeah, world pvp especially.
Making a build for questing+world pvp and the occasional battleground was fun.
>>343403284
There is a huge difference when you have to carry that special snowflake autistic casual around in groups/dungeons/raids/PvP because this guy wants to build X instead of Y because it makes him unique.
The only one you are fucking in the ass when you play SingleStone is yourself.
Kill yourself casual baby.
>>343417325
I'm going to laugh so hard if blizzard does legacy servers and they completely flop. I think people GRAVELY overestimate what they are willing to pay 14 bucks a month for.
I can't for all these "well its an exact replica of patch 'X' but I wanted patch 'Y', so not paying" posts they use to justify why they won't pay for this thing they have convinced themselves they want.
>>343417915
I can't speak to much past the initial leveling experience, but Legion is pretty good so far. Its definitely worth getting and playing to max level at least. The class quests, including the artifact quests, are largely super enjoyable. Some of the class designs are garbage. Like, extra garbage, like fuck all three hunters specs, but some are really good too. Like demo is awesome, for example.
>>343418020
>he would rather copy only 5 boxes than a whole bunch of boxes
what a pathetic loser you must be
>>343401453
>rock, paper, scissor, mushroom
>>343418470
I fully understand why hunter is garbage though
Hunter attracts new players and shitters like nothing else in gaming, and having an easy to understand class waiting for them just makes sense
It does however suck for all of the skilled and dedicated hunters out there
Clearly none of you remember Prot healadins. That shit was so fucking crazy. It was the optimal raid spec for General Vezax and got me glad in 2s. I remember Ret healdins were also a thing early on before people figured out prot healadins.
All these retards spewing "cookie cutter" clearly played nothing but DPS and took the "cookie cutter" highest damage spec with no utility.
>>343400029
The current system is way better because you have to do REAL decisions. Just look at tier 2 warlock Affli talents:
>Contagion: Unstable Affliction also increases all damage you deal to the target by 15%.
>Absolute Corruption: Corruption is now permanent and deals 25% increased damage. Duration reduced to 60 sec against players.
>Mana Tap: Consumes 30% of your current mana to grant 10% increased damage for 20 sec.
The old system was boring bullshit at max level.
>>343418698
Hunter is just overall feels crap. I mean, I think its neat how, once developed anyway, the BM artifact gives you a full functional second pet. But the actual gameplay has too much downtime. I like having AT LEAST some filler ability and I don't think BM can even talent into one.
And their class hall is the most boring out of every class.
Yes their class hall is VERY hunter. Its very flavorful FOR hunters, but its also really boring and low end compared to every other class. And the into quest is practically non existent. Other classes have to earn their halls. Hunter just flies over to theirs, listens to some dialogue, and A CLASS HALL IS YOU. Phoned in as hell.
>>343401591
oomkin detected
>>343401782
I just remember demo's vanilla tree being full of random shit
>get home from school
>log on WoW
>go to Sunwell with guild mates for dailies
>stay an extra hour for PvP
>Friday night pizza and Black Temple
Ahh, the simple times
>>343400775
You're the casual shitter for not being good enough to experiment and have fun.
>>343400029
I quite in early cata,after starting with classic.So I don't know much about the "new" systems.But I also like the old systems better.Also this thread is full of bull shit.
There were only a very few Hybrid builds I can remember.I was high level pvp player,so I can comment on PvE builds.
1.H.A.R.P rogues in S1-S2
2.Elemental Mages in Classic
3.Pom Mages in Classic
4.Boomkin healer in Tbc
5.Druids with no treeform as a healer
6.Shockadin Pala in Tbc
7.Sl/Sl locks
8.Warrios without the last talent in arms to get deathwish
I also to have to say,that I personally think that all classes felt the best in Woltk.It had the perfect line of being unique and not being useless.
>>343402039
>I also think the overall style of PvP got worse
No.I reached Gladiator in Tbc and Woltk.And all I can say is Tbc was a fucking borefest.2v2 was literally dominated by 3 combos Warrior+heal,Rogue+Heal and Warlock+Heal.Also Druids became insanely strong,in the end of season 2.They were literally the best heal specc in 2v2 and 3v3.Shamans were only useful in a combination with Warrior or in a 5v5(bloodlust).Hunters were crap,unlike in woltk were they had a top rank in s5 to explosive shot and in the end of s8.Mages also had only one viable 2v2 and 3v3.(Rm and RMP)
Besides S5 which was the worst Season by a wide margin.I think late S6(when Dk's became a some what normal class) to early S8 were the best days of PvP.
S8 became cancer,tho.Since warriors smashed everything with Armor Pen and also every Caster cleave became insane because of the amount of spell haste and atomic burst,thanks to trinkets and set bonusses.
The only thing I can say bad about Woltk PvP was:
1.Dk's insane first 2 season
2.Druids getting rekt by Dk Hot remove in S5
3.Warriors were trash,until the in combat charge came
4.Nerfing rogues mutilate,it killed them in s7,8 warriors were the supreme meele
5.Arcane Mage+Destro Lock s5-6
6.Meele Cleave combo
7.Some casters cleave in s8
>>343419253
I remember mages in vanilla needing to go half arcane/half frost just for the utility spells. Eventually blizzard had to jhust give them all baseline so mages could try having actual builds.
>Implying that a majority of people weren't going for cookie cutter builds
>>343418989
It's not current yet though, and that's a problem for those complaining, pandaria and WoD talents feel bad
Legion looks good, but we have no way of knowing for certain if it will feel good until the pre-patch
>>343405850
This, also don't forget they further simplified talent trees in Cata instead of trying to fix them, to the point where you could only put a maximum of 10 points into trees besides your primary one. That's practically useless, and they knew it, which is one of the many reasons I despise that expansion.
They basically designed it like absolute shit so they could scrap it in favor of super simplified MoP talents, and they've been doing that same design process with every other part of the game (take good thing -> make it shit -> make simplified thing to replace it). When you take that into consideration it's not surprise the game keeps going downhill with no end in sight.
>>343418989
In other words, you consult a simulator (or a guide made by someone who has already crunched the numbers) and pick the talents that are optimal based on the number of adds, how long they are going to stay alive and other such factors. Same shit.
Except that now you truly aren't making any decisions of your own because you don't even have to choose what exact task the build is tailored to be optimal at (ie. single target vs AoE vs utility kind of decision) and there's no kind of identity to it because there isn't any level of permanency to your choices.
>>343418989
>real choices
>15% damage increase
>25% increase
>10% increase at cost of 30% mana
what a great choice
>>343417928
Yeah I opened up a talent calculator for 3.3.5 and even now its still painfully obvious what talents you should choose.
The only one that actually had a lot of versatility was the DK talent tree and that's because they were a unique class which didn't have years of pre-defined talent trees like the rest of the classes.
I missed the occasional meme shit that would pop up in the DK trees like the dual-wield icy-touch/deathcoil unholy builds, but at the end of the day trying to pick a spec boiled down to things like figuring out whether the passive shadow and frost damage talent or the passive AP talent gave you more damage. Not really exciting design choices.
>>343418470
New demo is a cool design idea but terrible execution. Mostly the problem lies with demonic empowerment. It is an absolutely integral part of the spec yet at the same time it is completely uninteresting in its design.
Summon a demon -> Cast demonic empowerment, rinse repeat
The spell should be removed from the rotation or made a major cooldown and something more interesting should be put in its place.
The spec also has problems with slow ramp up time, terrible AoE, terrible target-switching, movement. Things that are all important nowadays because they rarely design fights without all of that shit anymore.
>>343419452
If I recall for both mages and warlocks they just used one spec as a utility that was pretty useless if you went pure.
Demon only had SL which I think was pretty powerful in Vanilla, but most of the other talents were just random upgrades to shit with no cohesion for dps like the other two trees.
Shit like better spell/fire stones which were useless in vanilla (they never ever could make a purpose for these, first they were weapon buffs, then artificial offhands, then consumables, they tried everything), better pets, faster summoning, a lot of tweeks to your utility and shit but nothing that would resemble a playstyle suited for combat.
>>343419834
To be fair "dps" classes were more useful for utility in most situations. Warlocks were really summoners and stone vendors.
>>343419816
>New demo
How is "new demo" in terms of abilities? I've heard they've gotten rid of metamorphosis which is wonderful, but nothing else about the spec.
Demo lock was my main from vanilla right up until they introduced that metamorphosis bullshit. It wasn't fun and it defeated the entire point of the spec, which was enslaving demons rather than turning yourself into a demon. Is it finally back to the summoner-spec it used to be, or is it more post-wrath garbage just without the transformation mechanic?
>>343418470
For some reason I really love that Hunters are getting the shitty class this expansion. Always disliked hunters and the players behind them.
Such an easy class that had everything in their kit and required no effort to actually do damage in both PvP and PvE.
>>343420518
Honestly watch youtube videos. There are some good ones out there.
Lot of warlocks are upset though. I like the demo and destro changes, affliction I'm 50% with. I enjoyed affliction a lot especially with soul swap.
>>343419816
Their aoe seems fine to me. It ramps up soulshards stupid quick. And imp-losion is ridiculous burst.
Hard to talk about balance quite yet. Might be weak, but who knows?
For the other things, yeah kind of. Still enjoy the class though. I'm going to enjoy going all out to see maximize my demon army for maximum damage.
>>343420909
Demo is wonderful, flavor wise if nothing else, and goddamn that skull is cool. Havent looked at the other specs yet.
Why is it that when people talk about modern WoW they can have a discussion but when someone tries to talk about classic WoW the thread devolves into rampant shitposting?
>>343420909
I didn't really get much use out of soul-swap when I came back to try 2 months of WoD, but that was because everything fucking died in two seconds flat both leveling and in dungeon. Maybe if I had raided as affli instead of on my old warrior it would have been more fun.
I'll look into it and I might try legion if the spec looks fun again, but blizzard has completely dropped the ball on every corner of the game except for raiding which they seem to have made the focus of the game now, so I dunno how long I could stick to it even if my favorite classes were fixed up.
I know garrisons are still in at least partially through class halls, but are professions still hot garbage or have they been fixed?
>>343419531
It feels just as bad in Legion
because, again, you don't have any fucking choice
>>343419810
Divine Fury
>reduces the casting time of your smite, Holy fire,Heal and Greater Heal spells by 0,1 sec.
Aftermath
>give your destruction spells a 2% chance to daze the target for 5 sec
Anticipation and lighting reflex
>increase dodge chance by 1%
WOOOAAW
>>343421231
Define fixed. I dont know what your idea of good professions are.
>>343418989
There are some fun ones, even if they are useless.
>>343421231
They fixed professions to the point that having two main professions is worse than having a gather profession+main profession.
Professions are now fun because the new items they can create can no have class specific functions. I believe I saw a necklace for shamans that regenerate 54000 health every 3 seconds when standing on water outside of combat. Seems pointless but I'm sure they'll add semi-useful stuff like that. Always missed those abilities.
Gathering professions have been fixed now so that mining nodes are specific to each character. No need to bitch when that druid swoops in and steals your herb/mining node. Players can loot quest items from mobs to go on quests to unlock better mining perks like Felslate Deposit. Even rare beast will spawn out of them for which hunters could tame. They're actually "fun" now supposedly.
>>343421225
If you generalize the conversation you'll have more trouble making sense of it. Modern WoW discussions are normal video game discussions. Classic WoW discussions, specifically this one, are about incorrect assumptions of an old system. If the old system hypothetically worked it would be far more interesting, but it didn't. Literally every spec had one build they had to be running or else be a shitter, they had to google that build and use it.
>>343421593
>this is what wrathbabies belive
>>343421225
The idea that modern wow is worse than classic wow, and that classicwowfags quit because modern wow is too shit for them is an idea that hurts the ego of modernwowfags.
As such modern wow fags shitpost about all the real, exaggerated, and imagined flaws of classic wow in an attempt to justify the 15 dollars a month to thenselves and defend their egos.
>>343421940
Been playing since vanilla, fucking dipshit
>>343421225
Insecurity, people who play modern WoW can't stomach the idea of the version they pay for/enjoy being in any way lesser than an older version. They can't accept that people have different tastes so they insist that people who like older WoW must be idiots stuck in the past instead of people upset because their favorite game has been warped into something entirely different with nothing to replace it.
I met these people every single day while playing up until I quit two months ago. Modern WoW has its upsides but it also has a hell of a lot of downsides compared to old WoW, but admitting that seems impossible for most current players. I even live with someone exactly like this, and if I ever criticize something about modern WoW to them they just explode. I did get them to try Nost while it was still up though and they enjoyed it and mellowed out a bit about the whole issue. I think the crux of it is that most people who play WoW now simply never played old WoW on any serious level and don't understand what people are upset about on a fundamental level.
>>343419810
>I have never theorycrafted in my life
Yeah because a debuff what last for a short time period on a single target, a large increase to something on multiple targets that lasts indefinitely and a manageable buff that can work for multiple adds in short duration obviously doesn't require any decisions whatsoever to make.
If you're this retarded its no wonder you preferred the old system.
>>343419785
>you just choose whatever is optimal
Except for the fact that you may be 1 of 13 dps and now the decision you're making is does my raid have enough AoE dps on adds to where I should spec for single target dps, should I be the one to focus on add priority and burst or is another spec/class more suited for it. Acting like you live in some sort of vacuum where your job is to achieve the highest number is quite possibly the stupidest mindset in a team-oriented objective, or maybe you've just done nothing beyond casual raiding?
>there isn't any level of permanency to your choices.
Are you legitimately acting like you couldn't respec your talents at a trainer? You should look up the definition of permanent.
There were a few fights I remember having to respec for in BC (mostly meme-shit like warlock tanking) so I guess that ruins your idea of permanency, but the reality was that there were so few meaningful differences that respeccing for each fight was not even remotely a requirement aside from the highest tier raiders worried about every possible percent.
And you can bet your ass that people would go all the way back to a trainer and respec if it was deemed worth it. The only difference they changed is making talent-changing a less time-consuming experience.
>>343421831
I can't speak to every class, but my BS had a couple neat utility items too. Like something that increases mounted speed on the broken islands for an hour or something and another that did some other thing. I wonder if all professions have what will probably be popular utility items like that.
>>343403606
>Everytime
Its not any different today moron, you're still using cookie cutter builds. In fact its worse now because you've lost control of your passive abilities.
>>343422091
I did, though. There's a lot of things I miss from old WoW, especially a lot of removed abilities, but there's also the fact that I fucking hated so many aspects of old WoW that nothing the new game does could ever offend me even half as much.
>>343400554
> Not playing a fun build sometimes
i miss my shockadin in battleground felt like a real battle healer.
>>343403681
Yes, it actually is different now. Almost every talent is viable in a certain situation and you will be changing often between fights.
>>343421620
>Likes unique effects added on top of your current spells.
So you DO like the new talent tree then!
The only thing missing from modernWoW is a greater sense of server community, that's the only 'feature' Vanilla had over Post-Cata.
Now, things added since, haven't all been for good. Mindless LFR and Catch-up mechanics being at the forefront of terrible fucking ideas.Obvious garrison is shit inserted here.
>>343421710
>>343421831 answered it. I miss professions being something you worked hard for and something that could bring you serious bank and reputation as, well, a professional. WoD trivialized it, you could level a profession to max in no time at all, and everyone could make useful things for minimum effort or time invested. You didn't even have to gather much, 90% of what you needed could be found within the garrison itself once you reached a certain point.
Not only was there no effort involved, but the things you made didn't really matter. So what if you crafted some extremely good piece of gear, there's a thousand others on the marketplace and all of them took as little effort as yours. You can't create anything unique or anything fun, and you can't specialize. My server was always one of the most populated in the entire game and yet during BC and wrath you knew the crafters with the best recipes because there weren't many, and choosing "armorsmith" or "weaponsmith" had a massive impact on your future within the profession.
>>343421831 sounds like a good start though. Even though we'll probably never be able to go back to pre-wrath professions, making things unique is a good start. I'm not a fan of character-specific gathering though, that sounds like it would diminish the market for gatherables. It used to be possible to spend all day mining and actually corner the market on say, thorium, but everyone having infinite ore from the garrison ruined that.
>>343422962
Then no. They didn't "fix" professions for you
>>343417326
>Affliction now consist of tossing non-refreshable DoTs
>burning a fintite number of soul shards for Haunts
>Using a big purple "I'm over here, come hit me!" beam just to get some damage going
>have to choose between utility abilities you used to have all access to by default
>self heals now almost non-existent outside cooldowns
I don't care what changes Legion brings, they cut the line for me
>>343421831
Why would you want gathering+crafting? Or do you just mean you need someone to gather out in the world for mats? Like, having a miner/herbalist druid alt for gathering matters now, but having 2 primary professions on the rest of your account is fine?
>>343400029
Why is arms so shit in wod. I've barely started playing but I can't imagine anybody actually progressing with that spec. Fucking vanilla warr was more exciting than wod arms. Also why the fuck is whirlwind my rage dump.
>>343422567
Then you're doing better than most other modern WoW players since you can actually recognize that different people like different things and that that's okay. I don't hate people who play WoD or who will play Legion for liking a game that I hate, but after playing the game for nearly 12 years I can safely say that I enjoyed everything pre-cata infinitely more and found it to be better game design. For some reason, most modern WoW players simply can't accept that such a thing could be my opinion so it clearly must all be blind nostalgia.
>>343421831
>I believe I saw a necklace for shamans that regenerate 54000 health every 3 seconds when standing on water outside of combat. Seems pointless but I'm sure they'll add semi-useful stuff like that. Always missed those abilities.
You know, I think the new WoW dev team really fucked up in WoD. It feels like they were trying really hard to mimic vanilla, but didn't. I feel like Legion is the same way in A LOT of aspects. There are some good things I've seen, but they always get overshadowed by shitloads of bad thing (like the continued culling of class abilities, or, fucking worse, the movement of baseline abilities to the talents that are woefully undeveloped).
>>343423043
That's a shame, I was hoping they'd actually make meaningful changes to the game in Legion. I guess the WoD 2.0 memery is true.
>>343423361
Yes. I wish everyone in the world wanted the exact same things as me too.
>>343423132
>caring about affliction
>ever
look at this faggot
>>343423534
I don't, it sounds like your tastes are garbage. But to each their own, so long as you don't try to convince me that WoD professions are somehow good.
>>343421225
Because classic WoW is tinted by nostalgia, for better or worse, and classic players can't fathom how someone could possibly have fun after they quit. So they shitpost anyone daring to say that it was just nostalgia, bad, or a version after they quit could be fun too. People who loved vanilla best shit on Wrathbabbies, people who loved BC best shit on vanillafags and Wrathbabbies, and people who loved LK the best shit on overly nostalgic vanillafags.
BC is the agreed upon "best", so it doesn't get many people shitting on it.
On the other hand people who manage to still play modern WoW, genuinely love WoW. WoD is an agreed upon shitshow so everyone who still plays either has friends, fun, or a fucking addiction. Either way they're enjoying themselves, and can look forward to an expansion that may not be a shitshow. So anyone saying that current WoW is a shitshow, is just agreed with and the arguing that shitposting requires doesn't exist.
>>343422649
Except you were useless.
>>343423205
WoD arms is trash without class trinket and 4pc, at which point it becomes, like tolerable.
>>343423361
Legion professions are still infinitely better than WoD. Time-gated horse-shit is out. Personal mine/garden is out.
It's true you can still do whatever at Skill Level 1, but recipes are 'earned' and found now, and have individual ranks.
So instead of being a Level 300 Weaponsmith, now you'll be like a Rank 4 XXL Shoulder smith, either by luck or pursuit.
Same with gathering. Each ore/herb/leather is tied to it's own progression, higher rank in a particular mat, means gathering more.
I'm sure over-time this will all be moot as everyone becomes good at everything, but early on, it should force some choice on people.
>>343400029
I think what I missed most about the old talents was the brief stint where a moonkin could tank.
>>343423605
Not anymore>Unstable Affliction costs a Soul Shard to cast
>>343422183
>Are you legitimately acting like you couldn't respec your talents at a trainer?
No. I already mentioned a handful of examples in another post (the likes of protadins taking Reckoning on Brutallus due to no parry hasten or Unrelenting Assault build for warriors tanking Hodir for extra threat or resto shamans actually taking usually skipped Healing Way talents for M'uru because Void Sentinel is by far the biggest damage-dealer on 3-tank strat and you have plenty of time to cast spells other than Chain Heal in P1).
The point is, there's degrees of permanency. There's "my favoured build for general situations" that you stick with most of the time when you don't urgently need something else, and the fact that you can't instantly switch talents to something else at no cost makes the times when you do feel special, as well as setting players capable of noticing room for such optimizations and committed enough to actually go to trainer and pay for it apart from the rest.
>Except for the fact that you may be 1 of 13 dps
Well, you obviously go for raid performance rather than personal performance. That doesn't mean it wasn't a question of theorycrafting, there is one correct choice given your raid setup, gear level, gear level relative to other players of your spec and any other factors that you can possibly think of. Besides, that line of argument defending neo-WoW seems a bit ironic considering Blizzard removed the bulk of class interdependency in WotLK and it has gone further downhill ever since.
Is throwing around instant Lava Bursts everywhere as an ele shaman still fun as I remember it?
I've been thinking about trying some private servers lately.
>>343421225
Because people blinded by nostalgia fail to realize the objective problems of older systems and pretend like a game could exist for over a decade never-changing a thing and still be relevant
>>343403681
I would define a trap talent as a talent that is more worthless than any other talent choice you could make in any given situation.
The vanilla trees were full of shit like that (which made them look a lot more complex than they realistically were to any knowledgeable player). It is a much better design if every choice is an option that gives players an area they might want to excel in, and thus are forced to consider what talents meed the needs of them or their group.
>>343400554
You're the reason it's shit now
>>343423641
Anyone saying it was nostalgia is the problem and is a shitposter. I started with MoP right? The "good" modern WoW. I didn't play vanilla until last year. LAST YEAR.
Classic WoW blows modern WoW out of the fucking water. If anything I should have nostalgia for MoP. But no so many fags say it is nostalgia.
>>343422649
you think you had fun, but you didnt
>>343423641
>On the other hand people who manage to still play modern WoW, genuinely love WoW.
Gonna have to disagree with you there anon. If you love something you're not going to support it when it's killing itself with bad design choices and actively harming the gameplay that made it so successful to begin with. As much as I hate analogies it's like paying for your spouse's crack addiction. You might still love them, but you're going to opt out of supporting that behavior and you're going to do everything you can to convince others to do so as well in the hopes that they'll realize they have a problem and take measures to overcome it.
I don't fault you for playing WoW still if you genuinely enjoy it for some reason or it gives you something you need, but you can't claim that playing it means you truly care about it or imply that people who have opted out and are trying to influence the game in a different (back to its roots) direction somehow don't care about it as much as you.
>>343400029
I didn't play WoW back in its prime, was that actually a UI from it back then? Leave it to Riot to cop other people's shit that hard.
>>343400029
>kids nowadays don't remember how everyone was shitting on WotLK back then
>that awful unbalanced pvp
>DKs could remove HOTs
>DKs being gods
>shit content until Ulduar and Ice Crown
and so on, I have no idea why or how the opinions has changed so much maybe because of how shit cata, pandas and wod are?
also if you wre a somehow competent player you would need to do as >>343400554 says, otherwise you would be kicked out of raids/arenas but yeah, deleting all those talents is still stupid as fuck
>>343423795It also does a fuck-ton.
>>343423838
Different anon. Something he's neglecting to mention, is talent changes outside of town do have 'some' level of permanency. At least more so that WoD/MoP. There is still a reagent to do so, but it's expensive, and not sold via vendor. And talents work ultimately different than how they do in WoD. It's usually a decision between, Single-Target, Cleave/General, or AoE. Deciding how hard you want to swing one direction, weakens you in others.
With the reduced accessibility to change talents,in a limited fashion, the old "build" idea exist again.
It's not what it was, but it is something.This is neglecting to mention how much interaction there is within talent trees themselves now. Generally speaking. e.g, Demon Hunter gaining a damage bonus from movement via a talent, and taking talents that increase their mobility. So on and so forth.
>>343424334
>maybe because of how shit cata, pandas and wod are?
That's it right there. I remember playing Wrath and thinking the game could never possibly get any worse, most people thought it was the lowest WoW gameplay could ever get.
But then the next 3 expansions happened and everything that was good about the game was thrown away while everything bad was amped up to 11 and kept. Some parts of MoP were a return to form but ultimately none of the good trends started there were kept, everything good was once again trashed in WoD and Legion is only building off of WoD/Cata instead of trashing them and starting fresh.
>>343400554
>you (...) didn't play back then (...) stuck leveling the whole fucking expansion.
Casual underage shitter detected. You only played MoP. No wonder you defend this talent system.
>>343424334
>kids nowadays
I think it's fucking hilarious. I played from Nillla, everyday, whenever I could, and it wasn't until Wrath I fucking dropped it like a child I didn't want.
Everyone always fucking hails it as WoW's peak, but Wrath launch bored me to fucking tears. ToC didn't help in any fashion. Ulduar was alright, as was ICC.
Funny how the middle of Wrath is what people remember so fucking fondly.
Tried Demo on the ptr.
I like this. And yet it doesn't seem to actually be strong on anything.
The ramp up time is long.
I think this spec will get quite a bit of changes to it from the first 7.1 patch.
But like I said, I like it. Its enjoyable.
>>343424334
>people bitching constantly about how an entire Nerubian zone was cut
>people bitching about the first raid tier being an old raid tier made into easy mode
>Tournament gabrage
Yeah WotLK was shit in every way people complain about WoW.
>>343424718
There is something to be said for both the new, and old talent trees.
The old one's were infinitely better for leveling, where people spent a great amount of time.
The old one's failed when you got to end game, there wasn't a lot of variety, in any fashion.
The new one is absolute trash for leveling, or the early parts of end-game. But functions much better once the ball get rolling.
Both have trap talents, a variety of choice, and are shit.
>>343400029
Neo-Wow:
>Blizz:guys! the old talent system was shit! too little options!
>fans: but you have very little options now as well. The difference is negligible.
>Blizz: Well, what about now? We've completely removed previous class abilities and re-introduced them in the form of tallents you have to spec into- or otherwise miss them completely.
>Blizz:Isn't this fun? so many choices!
>Fans: you pieces of shit! there's the EXACT same amount of abilities now! you' just moved them from baseline class abilities into tallents!
>Fans: Artificial choice-making! JUST GIVE ME MY FUCKING ABILITIES BACK!
>Blizz: See? That's how hard choices are! that's you just being salty that you have to think for once!
>Fans: Fuck you blizz, I'm leaving and never coming back!
>Blizz: Whelp, look at that, we're losing a lot of subscribers. How can we turn this around?
>Blizz: Oh, I know! Let's jut leave a skeleton crew takign care of our game and shift our focus to new, more proffitable games.
>Blizz: Everyone, here's a new x-pac! LEGIUM! It's hardcore ! (*PR fanfare*)
>fans: It sucks! there's no passion! you're invested in the same tired, old and -wrong- ideas! You're not even trying!
>blizz: take a look at our new game! pay for it! (*micro transactions in game btw ;))) *)
DESU fanboys deserve this. They licked Blizz's balls at every turn and every wrong decision.
>>343425012
A lot of specs seem weird on PTR, since their missing artifacts.
Not having them guts a mechanics from most specs, even in the worst case, specs are missing low CD burst options, eg Enhancement's "lol 6 seconds of Windfury get fucked".
>>343424114
Yep, the other problem is that the nostalgia thing became a mess of an argument starting back in Wrath, or maybe even earlier, when people who hadn't even played Classic wanted to be "in" so they pretended they had. That led to people asking them about their experiences in the game, and in defense of their lie they claimed they couldn't remember, which the other people used as an excuse to say it was shit. Add years into the mix and it compounds into the bullshit you see today. The nostalgia argument is just retarded, especially when you can play a similar version to the original pretty easily these days.
>>343424114
>Tinted by nostalgia, for better or worse
I imagine that whatever private server you played on was really populated, very populated if you played on Nostralus.
I'm also willing to bet that the people you played with were really active and excited to do whatever it was you were doing.
And the fact that you couldn't just fuck around on your own and needed groups for group quests, and could actually die if you pulled too many mobs since the game was much more challenging.
Compare that to silent LFGs and a vast barren world that can be AoE'd down, and there is no comparison.
Because modern WoW is a shitshow, Legion maybe better, but as of now, shitshow.
Vanilla was the most challenging expansion, no question, but some of that challenge was because it was broken. Being broken is never a good thing, but some look at that fondly because they were a decade younger when they played it.
>>343400029
who the fuck ever thought that completely removing base-line class/spec abilities to lazily feed into their new talent system was a good idea?
>removed life tap
>removed Destro's AOE stun
>how of terror is now a passive proc you have no control over
I haven't played this shitshow of a game in years. Otherwise, the (warlock specific) list of shit decisions would be 10x higher
>>343425514
>Compare that to silent LFGs
People are better when they aren't allowed to speak.
>>343400029
Best LK server?
>>343425923
>remove lifetap
>howl of terror passive proc
you wot
>shadowfury talent
You're right about that.
>>343425514
When I played on Nost the dungeons were pretty silent too.
Only talking happened was waiting for retards to get there/join the group.
>>343426287
Guess you shoulda dungeoned with me. My groups were pretty chatty.
>>343425514
Yep you nailed it.
>>343425514
>why are player not talking with each other ?
>I am too shy to talk though :3
If you really wanna talk then talk. The difference is that when you played vanilla you never had access to voice chats where you could talk. (meaning that most people nowadays usually dual ques)
people also expect more from you nowadays. If you play raids and have trash that needs to be CC you do it because it is expected by you.
But hey, it seems some of us are so autistic that we need people spouting memes and blogging in /p. Because that is what made 5-man enjoyable.
>>343426287
I had the complete opposite experience, but yours doesn't surprise me. There were a lot of people on Nost who came from modern WoW and brought their shitty attitudes with them. They tried to min-max everything and bitched about the difficulty, if they ever said a word at all.
>tfw have a 3.3.5 sandbox server
>Can fuck around with with god-tier powers and gamebreaking shit like spawning and soloing raid bosses anywhere
>Can create my own outdoor dungeons
>Can give myself and others other class, boss and NPC spells and skills to create custom classes
>Friends join and we do RP sessions in my custom world
Feels fucking amazing, man.
>>343423838
>switch talents to something else at no cost makes the times when you do feel special
Once again degrees of permanency does not equal permanent. I fail to see how hiding important customization options behind arbitrary levels of time-consumption some how makes it more enjoyable for me. That's better left for things that don't directly impact the gameplay experience.
>doesn't mean it wasn't a question of theorycrafting, there is one correct choice given your raid setup, gear level, gear level relative to other players of your spec and any other factors that you can possibly think of.
You're saying "well an optimal spec exists so that's bad". This is not any different from the old system or any other possible talent choice that could exist. Someone will find an "optimal" build for a fight, how is this a new issue?
>considering Blizzard removed the bulk of class interdependency in WotLK and it has gone further downhill ever since.
What interdependency in WotLK? Passive raid buffs? I The over-abundance of passive raid buffs was not good game-design.
Having to take a class because it makes everyone do x% increased damage, or it provides some passive buff is not an interesting choice. Having to take a class because they do more damage than other classes is not an interesting choice (which was by far the case in vanilla with all the mage/rogue stacking). It's more interesting when you take a class because it brings a unique utility to a raid fight, like the DKs ability to mass grip enemies. And contrary to what you believe modern WoW still had this.
In fact my biggest criticism of legion would be the removal of this distinct utility among dps. All it might lead to is a similar situation like vanilla with people stacking the highest dps class. That is unless they do a good job at balancing dps (which has honestly never happened in the history of WoW).
>back in Wrath
>be Rogue
>Combat with 100% Armor Pen
>in Wintersgrasp waiting for the battle
>see someone chilling on their flying mount
>fly above them
>dismount
>Killing Spree them 100-0
>hate tells all day every day
>would end up getting hunted down during the battle
Was some of the most fun I ever had.
>>343426049
>doing my own shit in LFR
>some dude says i was afk
>get kicked because trolling its so fun
>>343428771
If you actually managed to get kicked in an LFR you probably were AFK. Back in MoP we'd have people sit at fucking Tortos' dead body while we were killing Ji'kun and no one would kick them.
>>343428771
>playing LFR as tank
>get group leader
>set every single person in the raid to main tank
>"wtf y are my raid frames bugged????"
>>343428913
>LFR
>Tortos
Did you know that there's an invisible hole in the world just after Tortos?
>do an LFR
>kill Tortos
>set up noodle cart right next to hole
>"if you want to see something really cool, go in that nook right there that leads back to the entrance"
>ten seconds later
>10 DCs
>>343428237
Wintergrasp may have been shitty but it did have its moments.
>warlock engineer
>fly over wintergrasp before the battle starts and parachute down to an unreachable place atop one of objectives
>set my demonic portal
>battle starts, enemy captures objective
>jump down, kill the one or two people defending and recap
>never die in 1v1 or 1v2 due to my gear, skill, and infinite life steals
>when it becomes a 1v3 or an equally dangerous player arrives I teleport back to the unreachable spot and wait
>alliance fails to capture wintergrasp for the 100th time because they can't hold objectives and I never die
>sometimes I'm even still there when the next wintergrasp battle starts, because some angry alliance are STILL trying to kill me but I keep killing them and retreating to my safe place
I don't think I've ever seen people so determined to kill someone. Sometimes they would sit there below me for hours while I just sat on the roof waving at them. There was one rogue that was exceptionally bad and exceptionally dedicated to killing me and would try at almost every wintergrasp battle for sometimes hours,I'll always miss you Morsth. I hope you got gud.
>>343428237
>fury warrior before the armor pen nerf
The club couldnt even handle me
>>343403963
>I think you dont understand that the people like me who are now 30 and played the older blizzard games like diablo ,starcraft and warcraft1,2,3 now have a job and we cant spend the same amount of time like when we where kids.
>>343403963
>I think you have to find a developer that is catering to teenagers or early 20.
Hi. I'm 29, I have a career. I make a modest salary every year and have a stable relationship.
And I'd like to extend my warmest wishes to you -Git gud kidyou were always shit
>>343400029
>illusion of choice
no thanks.
>>343400029
>i can never play my destro-demo hybrid build again
>no more felguard as I burn shit up
>>343429449
>jump down
>get deathgripped
>get locked out of all magic casting
>DK absorbs all your spells with anti-magic shield hax
Sure kid.
>>343427005
>But hey, it seems some of us are so autistic that we need people spouting memes and blogging in /p. Because that is what made 5-man enjoyable.
Have you been on 4chan so long that you've forgotten what conversations were?
>>343429765
>felguard
>emberstorm
>spellfire set
GL, hated that I played off meta, but I stayed in the top 3 damage so he couldn't say shit.
>>343426224
howl of terror is a passive proc when you're at 30% hp
>>343428771
I got kicked in a dungeon the other day.
>doing OLD KINGDOM AT LEVEL 74
>kill Prince Taldaram
>he drops a stamina/crit dagger
>healer needs on it
>rogue starts throwing a fucking fit
>screaming in chat about how the healer doesn't need it
>healer offers to trade it
>they trade
>rogue votes to kick the healer
>it passes
>I check rogue's gear
>he's using fucking heirlooms
>I fucking hate it when people kick someone for no good reason so I speak up
>dude you have heirloom weapons
>"He lootstole, that means he gets kicked"
>rest of the group agrees
>they aren't even from the same server or otherwise connected in any way
>I'm fucking sitting there confused as fuck
>But no one actually needed that dagger, and even then he actually GAVE IT TO YOU
>"I don't care, lootstealers need to be punished"
>dude what the fuck
>everyone goes silent for a bit
>"You have been removed from the group."
This is why it is better if no one fucking talks.
>>343428985
> play lfr as a mage
> place a portal to old Dalaran inside a table
> see multiple players die instantly
>there are useless talents and useful talents
>instead of improving the useless ones to make them useful or create more varied challenges so they end up being useful as a result, blizzard just cuts the useless talents
>this is something people consider positive
>>343419492
>majority
that's an understatement, 99% of people were using the optimized build, and that 1% was trying stupid shit out and having to respec later on (or change back with dual spec)
>>343419810
you're really, really dumb
>>343421809
shhhyou can't let people know that there are fun talents
>>343430683
>i'm going to hold onto that bad memory for all of eternity
>i will never forget it
>that one bad memory is all i will remember
I've had plenty of good experiences. I recommend >>>/r9k/ for you though.
>>343421809
>useless
depends on the other talent options, but i can see it being a viable talent for burning the last few % of a boss
>>343422649
I miss facing shockadins because they couldn't heal properly or deal damage properly, and they had bubble, so I could just ignore them
>>343431195
If its a fight where the last 10% of the boss's health needs to vanish inside 30 seconds, then sure. But the other 2 options give you much more viability for the entire rest of the fight. And the "dies" part is permanent. You can't be battle ressed, so no cheesing with it either. So its ONLY good as a last gasp dps option for a crucial kill.
>>343430856
I do that all the time, fuck LFR. The best part is that it's always other mages that get blamed.
>>343431168
I've had good experiences in LFG too, but the bad experiences are just not fucking worth dealing with.
If no one fucking talks and everyone does their job the dungeon is completed with absolutely zero complications. I certainly don't fucking do dungeons to make friends, I do them with friends I already have.
>WoW thread
finally a chance to ask: what was so bad about TotC/TotGC? Please go into detail (or do people really only disliked that 90% of it was in the same arena and there was no trash (which were pluses for me considering the thematic of the raid)?)
>>343431526
>or do people really only disliked that 90% of it was in the same arena and there was no trash
Yes
The talent tree were inherently flawed as more levels more added because you had less and less space each time to invest in other trees. Generally with each iteration you'd have 15 - 20 points to spare to spec in a second tree.
In Vanilla, this was 60% of the way down the tree allowing you to pick up some very powerful talents and make different builds.
In Burning Crusade this was only 50% of the way into the tree and as such there were much fewer successful hybrid builds than in Vanilla.
In Wrath this was only 40% into the tree and hybrid specs were all but dead at this point except for memey shit like prot-holy Paladins in pvp.
>>343430856
I did that shit all the time in the ToT room with the snails, at the top of the stairs. Anywhere where you know at least some dips are frantically clicking.
>>343400554
>tfw this guy hits it dead on
>people will shit on him
fuck I miss Slow MH Hemo, any legion beta players can comment on how gloomblade works as a replacement?
>>343431604
seriously? this is ridiculous, do people really enjoy sightseeing and killing trash mobs this much? everyone ignores the fights, bosses, mechanics, and that godlike soundtrack? (probably my favorite music in the entire game so far)
>>343431919
No one said people were intelligent
>>343400554
once you were doing high-end stuff, you usually adjusted a few abilities here or there to fine-tune things, but other than that, yeah you mostly did cookie cutter
not really all that different than now, you still largely use the talents that are grossly overpowered for what you want to do and adjust the remaining 1 or 2 as needed
>>343432131
>adjust the remaining 1 or 2 as needed
BrM monk here
haven't touched my talents once since HFC was released
>>343422961
Catch-up mechanics were a bit better when you at least had to go through heroics for badges but also helped you with the odd off-piece you were missing.
>>343431526
Very short, highly unfinished, low visual variety, killed a much better raid.
>>343422961
>Mindless LFR
>terrible fucking idea
Bullshit. You need to take your opinion and go sit in a fucking corner. LFR is for getting gear so you can do real raids. I do actual fucking raids if I want to be challenged, not fucking LFR.
>>343432349
>Very short,
> killed a much better raid.
not a problem with the raid itself, but with Blizz getting lazy
> highly unfinished,
I'm waiting on those details, this is as vague as it gets
> low visual variety,
what were you expecting from a coliseum fight? they even came up with a twist for the last fight
>>343431526
Everything because it was a massive letdown from the greatest raid of all time that came right before it. We were promised many things (such as a neurbian raid) but we got a crusader event instead. If that isn't lazy then I don't know what is.
>>343432582
>what were you expecting from a coliseum fight?
For it to not be a raid, it's 5man tier environment design.
>I'm waiting on those details, this is as vague as it gets
It wasn't exactly planned, the Anub room was just part of the Nerubian zone that was cut.
>>343431526
It was unnecessary, Ulduar was still being thoroughly enjoyed by the vast majority of the playerbase.
>>343432297
Badge for heroics was okay, served as an alternate progression, albeit slow.
I speak more of Timeless Isle/Tanaan horsefuckery. Spend 2 hours here and completely invalidate doing anything other the current raid!
It's literally cannibalism. Why bother with the rest of the expansion if you can be ready to roll within a lunch break? It's one of the reason's WotlK/Cata/MoP/WoD end up with 'nothing' to do. The catch-up is too fucking strong.
>>343432451
Why does your candy ass need to be doing current content fucking immediately? That is the problem. Progression through raids is more enjoyable than progression through the same raid on a different difficulty.
>>343432451
not him, but they should just remove lfr
you shouldn't get gear and clears on raids when there's no challenge involved
>>343432451
>LFR is for getting gear so you can do real raids.
> getting geared for a raid requires you to do an easier version of that raid multiple times
Great design
>>343432451
So you like having to do mindless content to gear up for raids? Gearing up was much more fun when the content wasm't braindead.
>>343430683
this is exactly why no one talks. Everyone is expendable and can be replaced in mere minutes.
>>343432820
Badges were great in TBC because you could just grind a shit ton without any of the bullshit caps they have now for valor or whatever system it's on. Someone willing to put in a ton of time could grind a lot of badges real quick to get decently geared to raid, now it's basically just pure luck on drops and a shit ton of time since the cap for everything.
WotLK was the last time I legitimately had fun playing WoW
And I've played every expac since.
>>343432814
I thought Ulduar was too hard fo the casual shittersthe same who never got anywhere in TotGC
>>343432809
>For it to not be a raid, it's 5man tier environment design.
>It wasn't exactly planned
this is why it's considered "shit tier"? I should ask details more often, since it debunks the hatred so quickly
>>343430621
Lvl45 Affliction: Howl of Terror is unchanged. The fuck are you on about?
Provide link.
>>343431526
It came out way too early making Ulduar gear worthless and a piss to run all while the raid itself really wasn't that fun or innovative.
>>343433065
I don't deny badges were a better system than what there is currently.
If they do another timeless/tanaan in Legion, the exact same shit is going happen again. Subs are going to drop like flys as people have nothing worthwhile to do (except current raid) for 12+ months.
>>343433227
Blizz releasing it in poor timing isn't a problem with the raid itself, I'm looking for problems with the raid, and so far all I've heard was
>I want more scenery
>I want to fight trash mobs
I bet all the hate comes from butthurt PVEfags shitting themselves on the faction fight
>>343432820
Are you fucking retarded? If I do LFR, it's going to be entirely for gear so that way I can do normal. It's literally the wotlk system of spamming heroics, but instead of there being 5 people, there's 25 people.
>>343432837
You people are the most superficial idiots I've ever encountered.
>WAAAAH THERE ARE PEOPLE DOING A RAID ON BABBY DIFFICULTY
do you fucking whine and cry because devs include an easy difficulty in a game too? Are you that much of a goddamn child? It is easy mode to prepare you for the actual fucking content. It just also happens to serve a dual function of allowing casualfucks to see the content and not whine incessantly on the forums.
I swear to god, this place is full of literal fucking children.
>>343433389
>I swear to god, this place is full of literal fucking children.
the only one acting like a child is you
literally crying like a bitch that not everyone subscribes to your view that blizzard should reward people for afking for 20 minutes
>>343432847
You don't need more than a lockout's worth of gear from LFR to be capable of doing normal. It's not optimal, no, but it's enough (unless you really pissed off RNGesus).
>>343433102
That's really not the point at all. People were having fun progressing through it (as slow as some guilds were). Good guilds were still exploring hardmodes, hardcore raiders were still gunning for that 0 lights achievement. By introducing TOC, it not only gave players an unfair advantage over that content, which ruins the experience, but it also made it almost entirely pointless to do that content at all now that the gear it gave was inferior.
>>343433389
And the WotLK system was shit too, as mentioned. Though less shit since the dungeons weren't literally ez-mode ICC.
LFR isn't bad on it's own, it's systems like timeless and tanaan that make it a huge fucking problem.
It would stretch out the content greatly to have LFR progression, like from one tier to the next. Having LFR and Timeless/Tanaan ruins the other 90% of an expansions content.
>>343431919
Sightseeing, Yes. Fighting your way through a fortress or landscape is nice.
Trash, not really, Bosses are the meat after all.
>>343433571
>I'm not the child, YOU ARE
>I'm not the one whining like a child because people are allowed to play the game on an easier difficulty, YOU ARE
>>343433389
if there's no challenge, there should be no reward
>>343433591
that's a good point, I agree, they should have pushed Ulduar earlier (considering the quality of Ulduar and how the starting content of WotLK was mostly rehashed) and ToC a bit later (considering ICC lasted for what, a fucking year?)
>>343433389
>It's literally the wotlk system of spamming heroics, but instead of there being 5 people, there's 25 people.
Except instead of spamming heroics you are spamming the exact same raid you are gearing up for.
Amazingly varied endgame pve.
>>343433734
you really are
go back and reread your post and tell me you're not acting like a little bitch
children act like that, you have no right to call anyone a child other than yourself
>>343433774
Gear from LFR is not a reward. It's a tool. A tool that you use to be able to take on actual raids and get actual rewards.
>play disc entire game
>switch to holy once for holy nova for Vael
>switch back to disc after he's dead
MUH CHOICE
I'll grant you that in Wrath it legitimate felt that holy and disc were both good choices rather than one being gimped and the other better.
>>343433935
it's both
>>343431790
anyone
>>343433582
I remember running lfr, flex and normal siege for tge immerseus trinket every week and it never dropped. I used tokens too
>>343434009
No, because a reward is something you get for passing a challenge and LFR bosses are not challenges.
>>343400527
Most RTSs...
>>343433868
>Amazingly varied endgame pve.
I never made such a claim.
>>343433935
Except nobody does that, LFR shitters stay in LFR forever because they have no reason to go any higher since they're getting almost identical rewards to higher difficulties with none of the work or time investment.
>>343434091
Story of my enhance.
3 months of LFR/Flex/Normal and I never saw a weapon drop, until pre-patch and Garrosh's heirloom. Infuriating shit.
they should make lfr 10 man instead of 25 man and up the difficulty just enough so that people who afk get kicked from groups but still have it be easy enough so people can act retarded and get through it after a couple tries
>>343434231
>Except nobody does that
I did.
>LFR shitters stay in LFR forever
Good. That's where they belong. How does that affect you? Why do you care if they stay the fuck away from you? If they have no desire to actually be challenged and better themselves, how does that affect you?
You seem to be genuinely upset because a lot of people have absolutely no desire to get better at something. I don't understand why it bothers you so much. People are people, they're often shitty and don't seek anything more than their current station.
>>343434485
But that's the exact reason why it's 25 man.
>>343434613
it should be 10 man so that deadweight actually gets kicked is the point
>That one retarded elemental shaman build in WotLK that put like 41 points into enh so that it could dual wield caster weapons and was totally viable
And then blizzard nerfed it because no creativity allowed.
Post your face when you realized that there were 4 different, viable specs for healing paladins in vanilla.
>>343434602
It's harmful to the game. An MMO is carried almost entirely by the community and when you allow your community to be flooded with shit eating retards you kill it. Retards are also now the majority which means everything they want they get even if it's removing even more of the multiplayer. It doesn't need to be the most hardcore game ever but it at least needs a git gud or git out filter.
>>343433383
Besides maybe Anub'arak-25 heroic (I would argue it's also easier, it's just that Anub'arak is retard check so shit groups have trouble with it) it's easier than Ulduar (ie. Firefighter/Knock*3/Yoggy+[01]/Algalon) even when done with the same gear. Normalmodes were so outrageously undertuned the 10-man was actually quite easy with blue gear and 25-man was also total faceroll.
The outrageous way difficulty modes were implemented kinda obliged you to run it 4 times a week (at least initially when you still could use Emblems of Triumph) and the best rewards were gated behind completely artificial try limit barrier.
Encounters are mechanically (Twin Val'kyrs might have been decent if it wasn't for the terrible tuning and Anub'arak is ok but that's about it) and thematically dull (after defeating titan constructs and an Old God, you come to fight enemies that might as well have been non-elite world mobs). Lich King again shows up as "I'll get you next time Gadget" cartoon villain, Blizzard rubs more salt in the wounds of Anub'arak being grossly mishandled, the whole premise of tournament being hosted is silly (and is again this sickening "you are the greatest hero of Azeroth" bullshit as opposed to being a nameless soldier in an army).
3.2 started the trend of making all but the latest of raids obsolete (TOC replacing the best raid of the expansion and even lasting longer than it did is just an extra kick in the face, this is a design that's bad individually).
>>343434708
>tfw rolling an ele shaman so you could zap motherfuckers
felt good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNuEiGnPK5g
>>343400029
>Wow during phase "bring people and not classes into raids"
>Lol classes totally felt different from each other))))))))))
Why wotlk kids so retarded?
By the way Cata talent trees were better
>>343434992
>3.2 started the trend of making all but the latest of raids obsolete
I thought this started with Sunwell and its 5man heroic dropping betterthanraid gear
>>343434708
>Post your face when you realized that there were 4 different, viable specs for healing paladins in vanilla.
Yes, switch around one or two points here and there and it's a new build. How many viable tank builds were there? None. Retri? None.
>>343434935
>and when you allow your community to be flooded with shit eating retards you kill it
You mean from the very beginning?
>Retards are also now the majority
What is your definition of retard? Because if it's just "casual" then gratz, they've always been the extreme majority.
>>343435297
Catch up gear was available from the get go. Badges of Justice.
Not to mention pre-expansion patch made GM/HW gears purchasable by everyone.
>>343435441
WoW was casual compared to MMOs of the time yes but the current facebook audience could never handle vanilla.
>>343435689
Of course they could. It wasn't fucking hard, it was just tedious at best. Doesn't mean they couldn't do the very same they have done now.
>>343434708
>0/32/39 dualwield deathknight
>everyone thought I was retarded
>top dps wearing only blues
why was wrath so good
>>343434708
>pally healing
>vanilla
>viable
what? I thought only priests could actually heal, pallies being BoKbots
>>343435812
They couldn't, the casual mindset of vanilla was
>i don't want to poopsock and lose all my items and experience when i die
The current casual mindset is
>i want endgame content and endgame rewards without putting any time or effort into the game and i want to do it all without having to communicate with anyone
>>343434231
that was my reason to do LFR on every char even my main
i just couldn't get 640 gear from challenge daily for all slots of gear
and i didn't got any piece from first week clear
talking of highmaul because i dont remember shit from others exps
Daily reminder, Tigole was an evil welfare jew who raided everquest while receiving money from the government, he then went on to design World of Warcraft to be played while receiving welfare making it literally impossible for the average person who goes to school or has a job to raid.
>>343417326
Fuck I miss mana drain, maybe if they brought it back with about 3 classes having some version of it arenas would actually more interesting instead of healer face roll
>>343435994
>>
>what? I thought only priests could actually heal, pallies being BoKbots
Priests had the most tools to work with + the highest output.
Paladins were always the most mana efficient healers + had retardedly good buffs like Salvation and Kings, plus blessing of protection for when your retarded warlock gets two crits in a row and steals aggro..
Shamans were mediocre healers over all but they had chain heal which was strong as fuck plus their own unique and completely mandatory group buffs.
Druids got to eat shit and innervate the priests.
>>343436097
You're confusing your headcanon with reality, anon.
>and lose all my items and experience when i die
The fuck are you babbling about?
>>343436561
>i know nothing about mmos of that time
And you're giving me shit for apparently not knowing what a casual is.
>>343436263
I started tanking in Cata, working 40 hours a week I managed to progress. However for dps with lives I can see it being harder since they are in such low demand
>>343436663
You do fucking realise that you lost NOTHING dying in Vanilla? This is about fucking Vanilla, not any other MMO.
>>343436263
You can raid and have a life just fine. You just won't be getting any server firsts.
>>343436743
Vanilla which you said was always filled with casuals which implies there was something better.
>>343400205
Starcraft is killing RTS?
>>343435297
Magisters Terrence gear was technically under the Ilevel of t5 raids but there were pieces that were definetely better because of different, better stats being available like haste and armor pen.
But you couldn't gear up only on MT, you had to be running heroics and t4 to get the badge of honor gear that would replace the gear you got from the t4 raids and such, but there was still better things in T5 (CFR, TK and ZA) and T6 (Hyjal and BT) so there was never really an entire tier that was made obsolete like what tourney did.
>>343436895
What the fuck are you on about anymore.
You said the casual mindset of vanilla was
>i don't want to poopsock and lose all my items and experience when i die
Despite the fact that that doesn't reflect WoW Vanilla at all.
>that one friend who complained about his class and refused to use the optimal spec
>>343437042
You said the game has always been filled with casuals. Vanilla was considered casual because you didn't have to poopsock and kill yourself to play it. My argument is that "it was always casual" doesn't work because the casuals of today are nothing like the casuals of ten years ago.
>>343435297
For starters, Magister's Terrace heroic was more difficult than the post-nerf Karazhan so T4-level rewards were justified, and with few exceptions (like Shard of Contempt) the gear drops weren't that good, and that's a quirk related to the way itemization in vanilla/TBC worked (some items simply were well beyond their league, be it Bad Mojo Mask, Latro's Shifting Sword, Quaggmirran's Eye or Commendation of Kael'thas from MGT HC).
The SWP badge items from Smith Hauthaa on the other hand were good, but considering their extreme cost, it was very time-consuming to get the lot of them if you just grinded heroics. Realistically, any guild starting fresh would definitely do T4 if only because Karazhan is the premier place to get badges from and Gruul has BiS trinket and while you didn't really need two dwell too long in T5 due to early T6 bosses being undertuned and attunements at that point having been lifted, you definitely wouldn't skip it either (especially consider that, again due to how itemization worked, there were items well beyond their league like Robes of the Sea-Witch, Serpent-Coiled Braid and ability to unlock Hyjal rings that would come in real handy in T6/SWP progression).
So yes, having a few extra items (not full slots) did allow you to get past T5 faster than previously but that was a far cry from being able to skip it, the whole T6 progression was still there and good badge rewards actually kept Karazhan and heroics more active than they otherwise would have been. In terms of T6.5 (SWP) progression the badge rewards were quite inconsequential, a lot of guilds had great trouble getting past Brutallus even after having farmed T6 for a long time, the idea of being able to do MGT and heroics and going straight to SWP is silly.
>>343435549
Well, if you go that route, reasonably itemized Dire Maul drops, significantly buffed 5-man loots (many of them superior to anything in T1), T0.5 sets, ZG/AQ20 small raid content drops, AV rep reward epics etc. were also catchup gear.
And I guess they were, and that's good. Catchup gear is good for the game as long as it doesn't affect actual progression raiding or make content obsolete.
>>343437234
The casuals are the fucking same, dude. In Vanilla they'd level up and do some casual dungeons (&pvp) while chilling in Org, If, Goldshire or whichever popular hotspot. Now casuals play alts, do some casual LFR, casual dungeons, casual pet battle, whatever. It's just a matter of more content they can do now because of tons of old and new content.
If anything, mindsets in general have changed but that has nothing to do with casuals.
>>343437587
>>And I guess they were, and that's good. Catchup gear is good for the game as long as it doesn't affect actual progression raiding or make content obsolete.
THIS THIS THSI THIS THSIT THSI
>>343437587
Lack of catch up gear and decent gearing in general was one of the reasons why raiding sucked in Vanilla. You'd be grinding through old tiers if your guild started later and would never have the chance to progress beyond because of how slow and tedious the gearing progress would be. Nevermind the fact that you'd have to gear more than 40 people to begin with.
Catch up gear to get into the next tier raids is perfectly fine and good.
>>343436701
>>343436882
You can raid a little bit if you're very talented, but who do you think got to raid all the way through Naxx? I don't understand how you can raid 24/7 and have a job, the only explanation is welfare.
>>343437696
Content becomes obsolete when you are unable to find a guild/group to run them due to content being so far ahead. Catchup gear, by definition, helps you skip that content to catch up to current progression.
>>343417264
>Dubs on /v/
>>343437678
They aren't the same, dude. The demands of the casuals today are nothing like the "casuals" in vanilla. Vanilla players didn't want everything handed to them they just didn't want to have to kill themselves in order to play the game. If it were just as casual now as it was then you wouldn't see such a massive sub hemorrhage or people flocking to private servers running older expansions either.
Reminder that people who blame Group Finder for the death of the "community" are just looking for an excuse that isn't placing the blame on the community itself.
>>343438042
Typical loser thought process, too stupid to play a video game so you lash out and say other people are nerds
>>343400029
And then you remember that the skill trees didn't matter in the slightest and had no personal choice. There was always a cookie cutter build, and most of the time, 2 of the 3 specs for DPS classes were redundant and underpowered.
>tfw made this thread to shitpost thinking I would only get about 50 replies
>fucking 370 and it's been up for eight hours
Let's see if we can break 500 posts!
>>343400290
Fuck off with this shit. I had so many more viable builds in Wrath or Cata than I did post-MoP "talents."
>>343436882
the part about tigole and his guild only being 1% of the playerbase and running the game into the ground by by playing 24/7 and complaining to the devs that there wasn't enough content is 100% true regardless of job stuff.
>>343437678
Holy fuck you're underage as fuck. He's refering to the fact that WoW was casual as fuck then, and it's progressed to be even more casual as fuck. The babby hand held casuals today wouldn't be able to do razorgore.
Everquest 2 corpse runs. like fuck, go back to your junior year or some shit
>>343438105
>The demands of the casuals today are nothing like the "casuals" in vanilla.
Again, headcanon.
>or people flocking to private servers running older expansions either.
Of course people go for that when they want to play that fucking version for whatever reason, Nostalgia or whatever. People were playing private servers a ton in Vanilla and TBC as well.
>>343438232
I like nerds, Tigole though is a nerdy jew.
>>343438472
WoW was making 2 billion dollars a year during vanilla and they barely produced any content, what little content was produced, was only given to the 1% of elite raiders.
>>343400029
Shut the fuck up nostalgia fag, vanilla had cookie cutter specs for literally everything.
>>343438546
I was a fucking casual in Vanilla and I played with a bunch of fucking casuals and in TBC said casuals did good progress and have done ever since.
Had Vanilla had less stupid raid design (not fucking 40 men for starters) and decent catch up mechanics you would've seen far more raiding done.
>>343437871
Since the game was new and most players didn't play from the very beginning, this is less pronounced than it would have been in TBC and beyond, but as the game matured a bit, most players doing low-tier raids were there for a reason: because they sucked. A new player, no matter how capable, would have extremely hard time finding a group capable of progressing because their peers were shit. On the other hand, catchup gear allows them to carry their weight at some level and be worth trialling by more progressed guilds, and perhaps more importantly, allows these guilds to recruit players from larger pool than each other. Things like 4HM pretty much requiring several 4pt T3 geared warriors certainly didn't help, but in vanilla top-end guilds realistically had to cannibalize each other if they didn't want to spend their progression raid nights running people through T1/T2, which isn't a good experience for anyone involved.
>>343438070
>helps you skip that content to catch up to current progression.
>abandoning 5/6ths of the content is fine as long as people can jerk off about getting stuck at gorefiend
There was never a problem with getting groups for lower end content even on the vanilla private servers were everyone was autistic about optimization because there was incentive to go to these zones.
And in BC it was even more encouraged to do lower end content like the heroic dungeons because there was BiS gems and such there, items that wouldn't be replaced until WoTLK. Can you imagine ?
>>343438630
In WoW it was designed for that 1% of elite raiders because it was based on the game Tigole influenced so heavily.
>simpler talent trees
Not really. Not every talent spec has 3 choices and typiclaly 2/3 are situationally viable pending spec. It's not incredibly common for one being the end all per spec.
This is infinitely superior to cookie cuttering to the highest dps talents and cherry picking maybe 3 pending role/situation (and often having to respec between fights).
They literally give you everything you have pictured they just made it passive over time gains per spec.
They just cut out wasted time and filling out snoring trees.
But, yes, WOTLK is by far the best xp in every way but pvp.
>>343438749
See >>343438721
40 man was a complete nightmare to organise if it was a guild of one nation.
>>343438565
>Again, headcanon.
Again, it's not. A casual player today would not be able to keep up with player who was considered casual by the standards of vanilla.
>>343438983
Only in carebear retard guilds, the only real issue was a linear progression path, being stuck in MC forever.
>>343438630
>WoW was making 2 billion dollars a year during vanilla and they barely produced any content, what little content was produced, was only given to the 1% of elite raiders.
Not entirely true, Dire Maul, Maradoun, ZG, AQ20, Arathi Basin and a ton of solo quests were added in later patches and were not the cutting edge of progression at the time.
>>343438827
>If you were a Fury Warrior and you didn't take Bloodthirst, that didn't make for an interesting choice it just made you a bad Warrior
>>343439087
40 man makes it harder to recruit for national guilds (like I said). Other than that, it required a good pc to run decently.
I don't know why a national guild is "carebear retard guild". Was Paragon a carebear retard guild?
>>343434091
I cleared normal Siege 16 weeks in a row and the fucking Spirit trinket from Blackfuse dropped once (including token rerolls). I did not win the roll. I used the fucking Flex version all the way through to Heroic Thok.
>>343439028
Then how can I keep up? I was casual in Vanilla and am casual now.
>>343403092
>>343402926
That image has an md5 filename, which means it's off a booru. You can even reverse search it with md5:810dfa1b0fe71b1e2ee83fce16533da8
It's from danbooru and the salsa is from pixiv.
>>343439131
>ZG, AQ20
Shoehorned for casuals, still only raiders got to experience that content. Dire Maul and Maraudon was just what you got at the beginning of the game, and admittedly the only fun I ever had with it. Arathi Basin, one shitty PvP instance, not to mention only raiders ever got the Grand Marshall and high Warlord gear sets.
while not everything about wotlk was great, I do wish this'd come back
a dps spec where skill resulted in drastically increased damage was god damn fun
>>343400029
ive never played wow
i started playing a little bit ago with some people from teamspeak who have played before, and a couple other wow scrubs
i went destruction warlock because chaos bolt looks rad but im not sure about anything to do with the end game or if this class choice was the right thing
keep in mind most games like this i play a tanky dude with a 2h weapon if able so this caster stuff is really new to me
im just wondering if im going to be braindead playing the entire time and maybe should re roll something else. one of the other new players i already playing a warrior so im hesitant to go that. I was interested in arms warrior though that seemed kind of up my alley
>>343439310
Paragon is irrelevant, you're talking about a top guild that's being as picky as possible.
No one wants to go back to the days of single core procs with XP where the system could barely run Winamp and firefox, and where Steam was universally hated (also due in part to it hogging the low amount of ram we had back then, as well as cpu cycles).
>>343401704
>>343419120
Afaik pallies in Vanilla and TBC would use low rank flash of light in raids. I'm less sure about vanilla since I never got an alliance character to max level back then.
>>343402530
This is totally Blizzards M.O. Police the fun until there isn't any, any longer.
>>343431141
people on the forums are complaining about it being useless for questing
>>343439757
If you want braindead, go Arms.
As far as Warlock goes, Destro is fun-ish.
Most of my fun with my Lock being a tanky son-of-a-bitch.
What level are you?
>>343439398
>i played vanilla and play currently therefore the game is the same as it was then
Learn to read, I'm talking about comparing people who are considered casual today being compared to people who were considered casual ten years ago. The game has become more and more casual over time, see >>343438546
A person who played in vanilla being able to play now means nothing.
Why can't we have both talent trees like in WotLK/Cata and meme trees like in MoP/WoD?
>>343439784
My guild is national as well and they did fuck all in Vanilla as they couldn't get 40 people together. In TBC we progressed up to Sunwell and since then done most of the content available. The kicker? Majority of the players have always been casuals, including clickers and keyboardturners.
So ultimately the real wall blocking raid progress for them was nothing but arranging 40+ people together (+the following grind that would ensue)
>>343440023
Ignore that anon, he's just an idiot.
Screaming head-cannon because he doesn't know the context of WoW's creation and early life.
>>343440023
You mean considered by you.
Casuals just did casual things. Even if you put those casuals (of today) in Vanilla, they'd still just do casual things that they can do.
>>343440205
>Ignore that anon, he's just an idiot.
Good argument, anon.
>>343400029
Should I play WoW now /v/? I just want to play an MMO with PVP. I love FFXIV but the PVP queues are like 50 minutes long
>>343440047
because the new ones are objectively better
>>343440047
Literally artifacts in Legion.
>>343440016
32
kind of dropped off playing since overwatch came out but im still interested
WoW has always interested me but i never had the big group of people to play it with and was never drawn in by its art style or gameplay
>>343440296
Maybe. WoD had decent amount of world PvP and I don't think the PvP in BGs and shit can ever get any worse.
>>343440168
The way you worded that could mean you waited for retard patches where everything became a joke, but I mean no one here can prove anything, I can easily claim I was one of the few Paladins that cleared Naxx 40, but I'm not going to share who I was on here, neither are you.
There were shitloads of guilds in TBC that finally cleared content once that massive classic + TBC nerf was added which lowered all boss health by 30% and decreased damage done by them by 30%.
Classic and TBC wasn't about DPS (except for the generic DPS check bosses) it was about getting people and mechanics, flawless healing on 4 horseman, not disbanding due to Vael the guild killer.
40 people didn't block it, linear gear progression did.
I
>>343439818
FoL was mana-efficient enough to let you spam it ~infinitely even at max rank (assuming raid buffs, chainpotting and preferably spriest), if you tried to downrank it further then you would have been far inferior resto druid because lifebloom stack alone would have done more healing.
Holy Light downranking was a thing, though. For starters, you wanted to keep Light's Grace proc up such that you could deliver fast max rank cast when needed and depending on gear, librams etc. downranked holy light could be more mana-efficient than max-rank FoL.
I don't actually KNOW about vanilla but considering how sp scaling worked, I suppose FoL downranking might have been a thing at that point, though.
>>343440275
>Good argument
Literally ignoring the next line. Well done.
>>343440439
>32
It's really hard to make a decision about class at 32. Most classes don't really come unto themselves until like, 80, if not 90.
Yes the new player experience is utter shit. Wait for legion.
>>343440639
only in TBC and that's why everyone hated holy paladins due to their regen and overhealing, especially if you had the alchemy trinket, you were a fucking GOD, we sold so many ZA bear runs, just bring a Paladin in tier 6 with the alch trinket and mana pots.
>>343440639
>>343440802
It kind of started in with Tier 3 where some tanks chose Paladins as their healers because their heals came faster and they weren't squishy
>>343440275
You are an idiot, the game is objectively different than it was in early wow. Tons of mechanics like crz, instant paid level boots, dungeon finder, raid finder, dungeon and raid difficulties, free shit from garrisons, items that level with your character and give exp boosts as well as a host of changes to every race and class have been added since then. Casuals today have a much, much easier time with everything than casuals in early wow.
>>343439720
cat is 4 fite
>>343440537
In TBC we cleared until 6/6MH and up to Terongore in BT before the "retard" patch hit. (Was matter of time rather than 2hard, mind you as we had not gotten stuck at a boss at all).
>40 people didn't block it, linear gear progression did.
Nigga how many times do I have to repeat this: it was a horrible fucking cockblocker for national guilds. Being a national guild doesn't mean it was a "carebear retard guild".
Serious inquiry,
WHY is WoW such a point of contention for so many people?
Haven't really ever seen a community so divided, except for maybe American politics.
>>343441074
>getting up to only gorefiend
>being remotely good
there were fucking pugs that killed more than that before the sunwell patch hit and made everything easier.
>>343441248
When it came it was the most amazing and refreshing MMO experience ever, period.
Then it turned into a pile of dogshit where literally the point of the game is collecting vanity items.
>>343441248
Game has gone on forever with a ton of changes that alienated the old playerbase in favor of a new "modern" one.
>>343440965
>You are an idiot, the game is objectively different than it was in early wow.
Gee, a game gets additional shit in it as time progresses? Who knew!
>Tons of mechanics like
>crz
What about it?
>instant paid level boots
Nobody pays for their first character and few pay at all.
>dungeon finder
What about it? Made dungeon finding something else than yelling on a channel for hours while retaining ability to pick up guildies and friends (across other realms no less)
> raid finder
What about it? People who do that, stay there. That's their thing. Since it didn't exist back then it means fuckall. You don't even get proper tier from LFR anymore, much less decent looking items.
> dungeon and raid difficulties
Harder for those who want challenge and easy peasy for those who just want to go through that shit and get awful junk.
> free shit from garrisons
???
> items that level with your character
Yeah, it's just a shame that they can help out leveling their alts, isn't it?
>>343441334
Be reductionist if you want, it doesn't matter. The guild has done really well ever since.
>>343438042
The vanilla system where you need months through every tier to be able to do the last tier has been gone since TBC.
>>343441391
>When it came it was the most amazing and refreshing MMO experience ever, period.
Said nobody who played UO or Asheron's Call ever. It was nothing but polished, easier EQ with a quest system, which was literally the only thing WoW did over its competitors at first and it was STILL shit.
>>343441575
You realize most of what you just said only proved me right yes? You just admitted the game is now more casual than it used to be.
>>343441074
Yeah, that's the real retard patch, to even have a chance at not being a retard you had to have Hand of A'dal before the achievement patch existed.
Although there were many patches before that, but those don't really matter.
I won't even comment on you not clearing BT as I don't know your guilds situation.
>>343441391
>When it came it was the most amazing and refreshing MMO experience ever, period.
Let me guess, it was your only MMO ever?
>>343441575
not that dude, but dungeon finder/raid finder really put a damper on the whole "massively multiplayer" community aspect of the game, as did the massive drop in overworld difficulty
having to find people to group with you for things got people involved with each other and the lack of cross realm meant if you were consistently a shitter you got a bad reputation (and if you were consistently good you built your reputation)
>>343441931
First.
I saw others before it, they all looked liek boring clic
>>343441865
The game is more casualfriendly yes. I've never denied that. I'm denying the fact that you think that casuals of today wouldn't fit with the casuals of the "old".
>>343442040
Think some imposter had a stroke.
>>343442040
Then you don't get to comment. You might as fucking well have been a retard Halo fanboy bragging that it's the best FPS ever made to Quake and Tribes players.
>>343442102
lmao, you're fucking retarded.
Casuals now are just people that either have only cleared retard flex mode or have cleared heroic and brag about it.
Casuals in classic barely ever hit level cap, and if they did they'd be wearing dungeon gear forever.
>>343442305
Oh look, the retard's mad his shit old mmo sucked ass even 10 years ago
>>343442358
>Casuals in classic barely ever hit level cap
Completely untrue. All that measured is how much time you spent on the game, not how skilled you were. There were tons of retards who had no idea how to play their class at max level.
>>343442102
>>343442358
casuals now also do nothing but play pokemon in-game, collect mounts and other useless shit. And do looking for retards raid mode.
>>343442358
Casuals now have more tools to play with, more stuff to do. But that's because they've been implemented over the ten years.
>Casuals in classic barely ever hit level cap
Yeah, it was really hard to hit ~100 hours played, wasn't it? Stop being an idiot.
>>343442572
>Casuals do casual stuff to have fun
This isn't going to make the headline news, you know.
By the way, even the epin hardcore people do those things.
>>343442478
Real effort went into what you did, so people were more serious about it.
>>343442674
Not really, casuals post TBC expect shit to be handed to them, the casuals in classic actually tried when they did play.
>>343442773
>Real effort went into what you did,
No.
>>343442478
he's still right the difference between casual and hardcore isn't skill but rather time spent
you can very easily have hardcore players who suck way harder than casuals
>>343442674
>>343442773
Then blizzard continues to retard the game down so all the retards never have to improve, then they just become that much more entitled.
Classic WoW and the first half of BC were like a nice white neighborhood, then after that it went section 8 and all the niggers came in and ruined everything, then all the white people left to better areas.
>>343442871
Not at all.
>>343442871
Thats bullshit. Its easy to find some stay at home mom that puts 12 hours a day into the game that are terrible and find people that put like 12 hours a week that are really good.
>>343442940
> being this retarded
>>343442904
WoW was ALWAYS casual compared to other MMOs.
>>343442674
Casuals have more stuff to do now because new content was added specifically for them and the bar on some other content was lowered to let them in. Reminder that Blizzard considered Garrisons to be core content like PVP and PVE.
>>343442904
I know this post is bait, because your analogy is pure bait garbage, but bullshit. Mythic raiding is as hard as raiding has ever been.
Only those "hurr durr LFR counts hurr durr" faggots think otherwise.
>>343442773
>Not really, casuals post TBC expect shit to be handed to them, the casuals in classic actually tried when they did play.
Ah, yes, the arbitary line when "casuals turned into something different" that is decided by our dear anon.
>Real effort went into what you did, so people were more serious about it.
Yeah, 100 hours of effort. Whoopdefuckingdoo. Impossible for casuals to ever put that much time in WoW, yeah?
>>343442904
>Then blizzard continues to retard the game down so all the retards never have to improve, then they just become that much more entitled.
Stop being a retard. LFR is the same shit and like I said, YOU CAN'T EVEN GET RAID TIER FROM LFR ANYMORE.
If you want tier, you have to at least hit normal.
>>343442997
ignoring the difference in playerbase size in general, he's right, there are shitloads of no lifers that blow ass and don't care to learn.
>>343442997
you're just proving my point mate
that mom is playing the game hardcore, she invests a massive amount of time into it
she sucks no doubt, but she's still playing the game hardcore
>>343443032
Compared to other MMOs at the time of its release and then got significantly more casual as time went by.
>>343443105
Retards like them think Mythic fights are just the LFR fights with maybe one extra mechanic and higher numbers. Big surprise, they've been doing this since Heroic was added.
>>343443091
>was added specifically for them
The only content that was specifically added to them is LFR. That's it. Nothing else. Rest is for everyone.
>>343443105
No one's talking about mythic raiding you fucking retard.
Literally no one's brought it up.
>>343443141
Oh christ, these retarded replies.
>>343443235
>hardcore raiders and pvpers want to play a glorified facebook "game"
>>343443184
See
>>343443184
Lmao, mythic raiding now is having mods wipe your ass for you and hoping your upload speed is sufficient for certain phases.
>>343443274
>Oh christ, these retarded replies.
What a convincing reply.
>>343443318
>Not managing it on your dozens of toons making big bux and shit recruiting the best followers, buying shit to retrain them, getting OIL each day on each and every one of them
Easily something that a dedicated player can do but no casual can.
>>343443450
Decurse.
>>343400554
Improved sprint wasn't optimal to grab for arena but I sure as fuck took it for ganking at Hodir dailies. We had more control over our spec and more class identity then than we do live. Pretending cookie cutters died with talent trees is sheer retardation.
>>343443274
>blizzard is dumbing the game down so anyone can do anything
>hurr durr no one is talking about the challenging content
>>343443480
Raiding in classic took effort.
Raiding now is a numbers game where you biggest issue is upload speed choking your global cooldown.
>>343443480
Casuals do shit like that daily, why do you think games like Farmville and its ilk are so successful? Mobile games are one of the most profitable forms of entertainment on the planet.
>>343443597
>Raiding in classic took effort.
Yeah, monotonous grinding of one tier before you could move to next tier, hoping your guild stays together so no new blood needs to be geared.
Not to mention hoping that you shitty weak ass internets can handle it AND your PC able to run raids at more than 1 fps.
>>343443665
They might do it on one account but they won't fucking do shittons (literally hours of work getting oil for everyone) each day on it and buying retraining and all that fucking shit.
I'm in random social casual guild and most of them just do something that isn't garrison.
>>343443597
If by effort you mean getting 39 other no lifers to show up for 20 total drops a week where 15 of those were so badly itemized no one wanted them, then sure yeah. Effort.
>>343443863
so you say vanilla was full of monotonous grinding? perhaps the casuals of today who log in, check garrisons, run lfr, and log out could not handle it?
>>343443597
i disagree in part
high level raiding is still a challenge and in fact is probably one of the few good things wow still has going for it
or it would be if wod raids weren't boring as shit
>>343400029
wow did they seriously steal the skill tree from league of legends?
>>343444113
>so you say vanilla was full of monotonous grinding?
Vanilla raiding was exactly that. It didn't shine with epic tactics or anything.
>>343444113
I think you confuse "could not" with "would not".
>>343400029
Talents in every expansion were cookie cutter. You either take every best in slot just like everyone else, or you get shamed out of raids.
MoP and WoD system is okay. Legion is doing it right in one regard (all choices on a row are choices, very few best in slot choices) but poorly in a few other (respecing is too costly, and many specs end up with choosing between single target or AoE or passive)
>>343444012
Doing garrisons on multiple characters does not change the fact that garrisons are designed with casual players in mind. They themselves said that garrisons are meant to be a main form of content which is why they're keeping elements from them in legion.
>>343444113
Yes? How the fuck could you NOT say that, between the hundreds of fetch quests that were mandatory to level in any reasonable time frame, the actual times when questing at your level ran out and you had to farm mobs so you could continue, and literal resist gear grinding?
>>343444336
Good job ignoring the second half of my post.
>>343444670
Alright, let's answer it: They do monotonous grinding getting pets, mounts and shit. So no, grind wouldn't stop them, the lack of will to actually bother with raids would.
>>343444548
BiS in legion is usually choosing between burst, single target, or AOE, or pure simplification, such as talents that just give passive bonuses or simplify your rotation. A lot of choices will be BiS for one situation or another. There are SOME that are playstyle based. Like picking up a filler skill as marksmanship if you don't like having downtime, for example. But as far as picking "whatever" and making it work, not really TOO much in the way of choices.
>>343444014
> Literally ignoring everything else.
>>343444853
The only big grind is old raid mounts because Blizzard set them to 1% drop rate to keep everyone in the game from getting them after the content stops being current. Most cosmetic items are guaranteed drops from rares or personal loot from running lfg or bosses.
>>343445050
>deflecting
>thread almost at bump limit
>never devolved into spamming Elf/Draenei porn
why even live
>>343445050
What "else"? Mechanically the fights were simpler than now. Rotations were simple in vanilla too. Don't kid yourself. Half the classes were one button wonders. About the only "effort" was lack of addons.
>>343444879
The choices are more intuitive though.
It DOES often end up singletarget/aoe/easymode but even that works much better than the old system.
>Guide says pick this and nothing else ever. Done.
vs
>This fight has many adds, I better use some AoE talents. This fight has no adds, but cut down on AoE. I am a shitter who can't push buttons fast enough, but get this easymode talent until I figure my shit out.
>>343445191
Legendary weapons.
Battle pets (rare spawns outdoors).
Transmog gear in general.
Reputation grinds.
Achievement grinds.
>>343445293
Hey remember how Decursive got banned by Blizzard because you could brainlessly spam a single button to remove debuffs from the raid?
>>343445746
lol feral
>>343445746
The depressing thing is how accurate that is.
>>343402323
>warlocks were shit in vanilla
> said no one who played vanilla ever
>>343445863
Warlocks were absolute shit at first and got buffed.
>>343445502
>legendaries
Most legendaries now have quests or parts of them are guaranteed drops from bosses.
>battle pets from rares
Rare spawns are all over modern zones, you can't walk five feet without running into one and they aren't even difficult.
>achievements
Mostly tied to easy things like killing a boss or killing a boss under certain conditions.
I'll give you reputation and transmog.
>>343400029
But everyone used cookie cutter builds anyhow and whatever was broken at the time. Nobody is genuinely creative with the spec tree since most of the abilities were copy-paste and it was a complete cluster-fuck. Sorry to ruin your nostalgia.
>>343400029
>implying the cookie cutter talent trees were good
>implying you wouldn't get kicked from a guild for trying to spec differently than everyone else
Nostalgiafags actually believe this shit.
>>343445863
Warlocks were practically not worth even fucking playing. Remember when there was a debuff limit? Warlocks would remember. Warlock was a fucking joke class in Classic.
>>343445969
>Most legendaries now have quests or parts of them are guaranteed drops from bosses.
All old ass legendaries are 1% drop rates (+construction of TF and Sulfuras) and even the parts legendaries can take a long time to be made.
As for both cape and ring both took fucking months to finish grinding for.
Artifacts will be the first "no grind" to obtain legendaries but they will require shittons of grind to upgrade.
>Rare spawns are all over modern zones, you can't walk five feet without running into one and they aren't even difficult.
No, I mean rare spawn battle pets like Unborn Valkyrie.
>Mostly tied to easy things like killing a boss or killing a boss under certain conditions.
No they aren't you dumbass. Reputation grind cheevos take ages. I don't know if Insane has been made easier but that took fucking forever.
>>343417272
>Honestly picking between different new abilities and different alterations to existing abilities is much more interesting than dumping five points into something to get 5% extra damage on one ability.
Then why are artifact weapon talents all just "Give 5% to flamestrike" and shit? Aren't they the selling point of the expansion? Why would Blizzard regress to an old model like that if it wasn't good or interesting to begin with?
I'm one of those players who resubs every expansion and plays until bored. Which usually last a month before I resub for a patch that interest me.
I feel like everyone has the mindset that the game has to give them unlimited amount of hours of gameplay. I think WoW is great and the changes they've mad are much better than the ones they had before. Mid TBC player here.
>>343446420
They still aren't but faggots still want it.
Why does blizzard keep equipping Hunters with the ability to fuck up dungeons and raids?
Of all the classes they have the most things that can just screw with the raid.
I mean of all the classes to give shit that fucks with the raid too...
>Aspect of Cheetah making entire raid get dazed
>Pet taunts
>Pet wasting Heroism/Bloodlust
>Transfer threat to their target of choice
>Feign death so their fuckups never cost them a repair bill, just everyone else
Many of those are being removed (or already have been) but I still am baffled that Blizzard ever though giving hunters these tools was a good idea.
Surely they have realized Hunters are for brain dead morons that want all the benefits of range with none of the downsides? Not only do they get easy mode rotations, they also have tons of mobility and are ranged, which is almost always easier for raids. Most hunter players also get heavy tunnel vision on bosses, despite the PILES of advantages they have in target switching (like doing melee levels on snap damage)
>>343429638
this
anyone that defends the old talent system never even played when it was active
>>343400029
>it was also the last time where talent specs felt different from each other within the class
You're either baiting, delusional, or didn't actually play back then if you think specs are more similar now than they were back then. This goes triple if you take into account the fact that they're overhauling most of the specs in the game in Legion to make it so that they share even fewer spells than they do now (and hybrids are even using different resources in some cases.)
The only advantage that the old talent system had over the new one is that it meant you got something beyond raw stat increases every level- but even when talking about leveling the new system is better because the old system required the class designers to hold back spells that were important for your spec to function until later tiers so that they couldn't also be used by other specs.
>>343446420
Because artifact traits don't pretend to be a choice, at least not in the long-term- you will eventually get every single artifact trait with enough time. With the old talent system you eventually stopped gaining talent points and thus had to decide which ones to get and which ones to skip.
The problem with the old system wasn't the "5% to flamestrike" talents in and of themselves, it was the survivability/utility talents that you could theoretically take instead but in practice only retards and hipsters went for them over the 5% damage buff.
>>343443863
Monotonous grinding as opposed to dailies and garrisons which are not monotonous at all.
