Why do we allow devs to restrict your choices in a game?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdN4BTH1qa4
because sometimes games have rules in their design.
likewise, you cant skip directly to checkmate just because you get bored playing chess
>>342097703
Choices as in?
>>342097703
This was probably one of his dumbest arguments.
Games are an unique medium in which you have to challenge yourself and get good in order to progress to the next level, where the difficulty is higher.
This doesn't exist for other mediums. You can skip forward in a movie, or flip a few pages in a book to "skip content", but this is antithetical to everything games are supposed to be.
>>342097703
Has there ever been ANY choice in ANY game that has significantly changed the game.
>>342098231
But isn't it pro consumer to have that option? It doesn't hurt in any way the people who wouldn't use the feature if it were included.
>>342098231
you can still do that if you wish with open content
did you also object to GTA V opening the entire map at the beginning?
>>342098349
I fucking hate that argument.
Restricting player options is literally what makes games possible.
If every game had god mode enabled by default, most games would fucking suck.
Without limiting the player's options, the entire stealth genre wouldn't even exist.
>>342098512
I'm not saying enabling it by default. I'm saying put it in the game for those who want the option. If you don't want to use it, then don't use it.
The bigggest negative is that it would give devs an excuse to not properly balance the difficulty curve of the game, since the player can skip to anywhere they'd want to right off the bat
This could mean overtly easy or hard stages, or games in which difficulty is all over the place. And if you design the game from the get go with this concept in mind, I feel like it would limit just what you could do in the later levels, knowing that some players aren't going to pick up skills/knowledge from previous stages of the game
>>342098349
>pro consumer
Depends on what the consumer wants. When I buy a game, I expect it to have rules and progression like a game of that genre should.
Certain genres I don't have such expectations from, but that should be obvious anyway.
>>342098349
It may very well be. But being pro consumer isn't always beneficial. This could end up fragmenting the product because people communicate and increasingly share their experiences online.
Why would i pay fullprice 60$ for just a portion of the game which my friend recommended to me? Why not split the game into chapters, and let me buy one chapter for 10$ or less and let me play that? And where do we go from there?
If being pro consumer means destroying what made the medium great and successful, is that really being pro consumer in the first place?
>>342098663
>When I buy a game, I expect it to have rules and progression like a game of that genre should.
But it does. It still has the very same progression other single player campigns have. It's just now, if someone wants, they can skip ahead.
This is no way affects you as a player/ So why is it bad?
If you want to skip levels in a game you haven't beat yet why are you even playing it?
>>342098231
You are retarded
Just add a godmode cheat. That way you can experience the gameplay rather than just skipping it even if you're shit at it
>>342098841
maybe that level is shit and the rest aren't
>>342098545
>I'm saying put it in the game for those who want the option.
It's called the console and godmode/infinite money command.
>>342098545
>I'm not saying enabling it by default. I'm saying put it in the game for those who want the option. If you don't want to use it, then don't use it.
It would still result in every challenge being a self imposed one.
Inherent challenge is what games live off though.
How many people would still play dark souls the normal way if they had the option to one hit kill any enemy by simply pressing a single button? Most people would use it at least once, at some boss they find particulary frustrating.
And in the end they would wonder why they didn't enjoy it. Because this kind of option just sucks the enjoyment out of a game, but most people just don't notice it.
>>342098431
>you can still do that if you wish with open content
That's a specific case in which the norms are changed, however even in the case of GTA:V, there's the story. The world is nice an all, but you play them for the story these days, at least i do. I got bored of running over pedestrians and shooting cops in GTA3.
>did you also object to GTA V opening the entire map at the beginning?
Honestly it didn't affect me as much because i don't explore and just play the story, so i didn't get to see the new areas until the story brought me there anyway. But if i had to choose, i would opt for what GTA3 did.
I liked the feeling of the unknown big city laying ahead of me, of roads i didn't drive on or new vehicles i had not seen or rarely seen in Portland. The same goes for the new weapons, the new hideout. GTA3 was a great game.
is it true that people skip cutscenes? it's the best part
>>342097761
>you cant skip directly to checkmate just because you get bored playing chess
I can. I worked for the money and purchased the game, now I own it and I can do whatever I want with it. I can make up whatever rules I want. I can replace the pieces with lego policemen and pretend that the board is a dance floor. I can completely disregard the concept of checkmate if I feel like it.
What's so wrong with that? You don't have to consider me a proper chess-player if I do that, but if it's fun I don't give a shit about your opinion. Why am I now allowed to have the same sort of creativity and freedom with video games?
>>342098231
>video games need to be exactly X, otherwise they aren't video games
>art needs to be Y, otherwise it cannot be considered art
Who the fuck cares and why?
>>342097703
the way he pronounces "issues" triggers my autism
>>342098934
what difference does it make with regard to the method that allows the player to control the content they want to play?
>>342099059
>I can. I worked for the money and purchased the game, now I own it and I can do whatever I want with it. I can make up whatever rules I want. I can replace the pieces with lego policemen and pretend that the board is a dance floor. I can completely disregard the concept of checkmate if I feel like it.
>What's so wrong with that? You don't have to consider me a proper chess-player if I do that, but if it's fun I don't give a shit about your opinion. Why am I now allowed to have the same sort of creativity and freedom with video games?
You can cheat or mod as much as you want.
People just don't want it build it as a native option (as in no external code or software necessary) into their games.
>>342098613
That's extremely easy to fix, though. Either separate tutorials from real stages or just display tutorial message whenever you encounter a new thing, regardless of where you encounter it.
>>342098938
>It would still result in every challenge being a self imposed one.
If you choose a difficulty other than "easy" in games, you are already experiencing a self-imposed challenge.
>>342099210
>People just don't want it build it as a native option (as in no external code or software necessary) into their games.
those people dont have a reason to object to it. thats the point of this thread. we are already aware of the state of affairs as a matter of fact
>>342099108
I'm saying that the option you're proposing already exists in most games. I can't think of any single player games on the PC where you can't cheat.
This is the sort of thing that if present people wouldn't even give a fuck about
>>342099210
>You can cheat or mod as much as you want.
Nowadays most devs try their best to prevent that and actively work against such activity.
>People just don't want it build it as a native option (as in no external code or software necessary) into their games.
And why not? Many games from my childhood had cheat codes that did all sorts of cool shit. Nowadays they're separated from the base game and either banned or sold as DLC.
Hey guys, i skipped half the game, is me of the story doesn't make any sense and this characters are retarded?
>>342099436
I think you're the retarded one. You wouldn't have skipped so much if you cared about the story.
>>342098545
>for those who want the option
no. git gud.
maybe the people who are shit would finally stop trying to "play" games and find a hobby more suited to them.
the only way they should have a level select to skip content is by using a cheat code. but then you'll know you cheated.
But I remember some devs saying that they open up content and made games easier becasue they want the consumer to play through the entire game before quitting.
>>342098967
I like having the option in case i have a gameover or replay the game, but i never skip on a first playthrough
>>342097703
Because the game belongs to them.
Everything you can do, you can do on their sufferance.
Of course the consumers right is to not buy the game, which they would like as well, so they will balance their artistic vision against economic interests, resulting in some things they implement for the player, while keeping others in that might aggravate the player nonetheless, for their own contentment.
>>342098545
The problem with this is that you can betray your own game when you implement options to make it playable to people who would not even like the game in its core form.
This is akin to people seriously saying that they love overwatch, but don´t want the shooting.
The thing is, those people don´t love overwatch, they love their own skewed imagination of it, and aquiescing those people can hurt the game, just like making something in accordance to the lowest common denominator will never result in anything above mediocrity.
>>342098289
yes. Witcher 2 for example has two different chapters depending on who you chose to follow in chapter 1
If movie mode gave the worst ending in a game that has multiple, granted no achievements, and was strictly offline in online games (DaS), then I could abide it. I would, however, still look down on anybody who used it.
>>342099059
> now I own it and I can do whatever I want with it
You don´t and you can´t.
You own the right to play it in whatever form the actual owner allows you to, and mods and stuff are things that they only allow you to do.
>>342099436
REEEEEEEEEE
I agree with what he's saying.
But here's my argument. I depends on how you skip content, really. The bottomline is that to some extent nonskippable content adds to the game's lifespan. Let's say, Diablo 3, where they removed difficulty levels (Normal, Nightmare, Hell etc) and instead made it as a slider.
I think that's a bad decision by Blizzard because one of the fun of D3 is playing on Normal first, then Nightmare, then Hell. You are forced to, but it adds hours worth to the game.
Now, you can freely skip it and go Hell immediately.
>>342099776
>You own the right to play it in whatever form the actual owner allows you to
I don't know how it is in America, but EU law says that once you purchase a program, you can do whatever you want with that program, right down to altering code. Even if it's obfuscated, if you somehow figure out a way to reverse engineer it, you have the right to change the code however you want.
>>342099548
FUCK YOU THE GAME GIVES ME THE OPTION THEN IT SHOULD MAKE SENSE
>>342100063
Yes but it's an option you don't have to pick.
>>342099776
LAND OF THE FREE
>>342099316
>proposing already exists in most games
no it doesnt. 99% of games dont offer official cheats or coded workarounds. people end up making their own cheat tables or mods, which run the risk of being broken by patches or having the player banned from their own content.
>>342099829
>This pic
Oh, I hate this. This is true torture.
>>342100063
But it makes sense. Choices come with consequences.
>>342099557
which means your own attitude is your downfall.
devs make games easier overall when they could just keep them difficult and allow people to bypass as they pleased. your solution goes against the design principles you wish to preserve
>>342098231
>trying to say le dying cancer mans pseudo intellectual rants are garbage
We have to just act like he knows what he's talking about because his fans demand he be treated with kid gloves
>>342099654
>This is akin to people seriously saying that they love overwatch, but don´t want the shooting.
>The thing is, those people don´t love overwatch, they love their own skewed imagination of it, and aquiescing those people can hurt the game, just like making something in accordance to the lowest common denominator will never result in anything above mediocrity.
people having to enjoy the game by your rules and your rules only is the definition of autism.
>>342099654
>betray your own game
>hurt the game
>not even like the game in its core form
>those people don´t love overwatch
Yeah, what about my precious little fur- I mean pixel babies? They have feelings too! :'(
>Because the game belongs to them.
No, it doesn't. They quite literally sold it to me.
>they love overwatch, but don´t want the shooting
>they love their own skewed imagination
>making something in accordance to the lowest common denominator will never result in anything above mediocrity
This further proves you're retarded. You don't need to shoot in Overwatch, there are many classes that don't do any shooting at all. Most of the shooter classes don't require any skill or violence either, whichever you're talking about. It's light and casual fun with greatly diverse gameplay, meaning you can play it however the fuck you want, you don't HAVE to do anything you don't want. And that's exactly why it's so beloved and popular.
>>342100124
I'm not so sure if it's a good analogy, but it's kind of like a beautiful hot slut who loves you, you know. Sure it's your choice to love her back and marry her, or avoid her like plague, but it's so tempting to marry her.
You get tempted and you marry her or something, but after you do that you realize it was a mistake and just ruins your entire marriage experience.
>>342099059
>video games need to be exactly X, otherwise they aren't video games
It depends on what you mean by "X".
If a book doesn't have pages and instead is just words in the sand on a beach, is it still a book?
>art needs to be Y, otherwise it cannot be considered art
We're not talking about art, we're talking about a medium. It's art either way, but that's not what we're discussing here is it?
>>342099850
I feel the opposite, normal and nightmare are braindead easy most of the time and I wish they got to the part where I have to pay attention to what's happening faster
(and I think they did since there's a monster power setting and Reaper of Souls did something else)
>>342099776
>you paid $60 to borrow this toy but i'm going to observe your play and take it away from you in a couple of years
Wow, man, this is exactly why I pirate 'murrican games. You don't deserve my money.
Weird how when I say playing games for fun and casualness instead of for challenges, everyone screams at me. But it's okay when ass cancer man says it
>>342100440
>If a book doesn't have pages and instead is just words in the sand on a beach, is it still a book?
No
>A book is a set of written, printed, illustrated, or blank sheets, made of ink, paper, parchment, or other materials, fastened together to hinge at one side.
>>342100376
Thinking people should be allowed to do whatever with no rules or boundaries is the definition of a terrible parent who has a kid with autism
>>342099776
I own the physical copy. In no situation is any company allowed to come into my house and take that item. If they did, I am in my right to use lethal force.
>>342100026
>>342100151
In America, companies basically have more power than the government. They can do whatever they want, blatantly ignore rights of people, ignore laws, and create new laws on the fly to back up their bullshit. And Americans are generally very disciplined into the idea that companies cannot be challenged and are basically divine god beings and giants we must simply pray don't crush us
>>342100708
>In no situation is any company allowed to come into my house and take that item.
They don't need access the physical disc to stop you from playing
>>342100440
>If a book doesn't have pages and instead is just words in the sand on a beach, is it still a book?
That isn't a book because a book by definition is made of pages. Words in the sand, however, are still literature.
And a video game's definition is that it's an interactive digital toy. Just because the devs alter the code a little bit to give you more freedom inside of it doesn't mean that it's no longer a video game.
>>342100810
>very disciplined into the idea that companies cannot be challenged
Thats funny considering America also have this fame of "everyhing being sued by everything for everthing"
Is this one of those threads where "those" people gather? You know those people who will buy a medieval fantasy RPG and then moan why there aren't any cool cars in it. You know, those people who say "its fantasy, I play this game to outlive my sexual frustrations, thus every single female in this game must be 10/10 waifumaterial".
>27 minutes
Bottom line it for me.
>>342100665
Are you autistic for real? Video games are for entertainment, not for parenthood.
>>342097703
Because it's about journey and challenging yourself, I guess? People would probably use shortcuts, but then they could be dissapointed and complain, because that's how stupid they are.
It's a question if we should give people what they want, or should we rather guide them, knowing better what is best for them. Only, do we really know? And even if we do know, do we have the right to force them?
Dev here. It makes sense to allow players to skip content for the same reason it makes sense to include cheats in your game. Some players like having fun with them even though that's clearly not how the game is intended to be played. Why not give it to them? In the end if it helps move more units and more players are pleased then what's the harm?
>>342097703
>TB shilling for CoD like usual
>>342100923
Went away around the mid 2000's. Younger generation pretty much act like slaves under a corporate overlord
>why do we allow movies to be edited?
this is about how stupid you sound right now OP
>>342099436
>Hey guys, i skipped half the game, is me of the story doesn't make any sense and this characters are retarded?
That wouldn't make any difference when playing one of the latest CoD games though.
>>342101060
As many have already mentioned in this thread.
Sometimes it fits the game, sometimes not. One has to decide on direction of design and stick to it, not change half way through, since that would just bring bitterness in the already established fanbase.
>>342101260
>Younger generation pretty much act like slaves under a corporate overlord
Is because corporations pushed for how "stupid" some where, like the "i dropped coffe on me and mcdonnals had to pay me teehee!"?
Skipable cutscenes are a must, i'll admit there haven't been many cutscenes that I've wanted to skip in recent years, but I know for a lot of people games are about the gameplay, and everything else is a chore for them
As for skippable gameplay
I'd tend to disagree
Infinite life cheats are a good way for people to experience the story without a challenge, and can cause some funny moments to boot.
It's a shame that most games as of late have no cheats at all, not even harmless ones like big head modes
>>342100930
They don't need to be waifubait, but please
please stop making deliberately ugly characters
male or female just do not
the only reason a character should be ugly is because you're supposed to feel revulsion while looking at them
but that's getting off topic
>>342101260
>Younger generation pretty much act like slaves under a corporate overlord
So why is that younger people were voting for Sanders?
>>342100869
They sort of do. Anything else requires internet connection and the majority of video gaming systems do not have internet connectability
>>342100970
Sports are also for entertainment but people may consider you a faggot for changing the set rules of the sport as you go
>>342101452
Clearly they didn't, as he didn't win or even get into the national election
Meanwhile, Obama road to the whitehouse for 8 years off young people
>>342098289
A choice at the end of Walking Dead Episode 1 changes a lot of episode 2.
>>342098289
The latest Fire Emblem game has the biggest choice, if you buy it digitally.
Who you decide to help LITERALLY changes the rest of the game.
I legit don't care how others enjoy either picking bits to play or starting from the beginning and playing all the way through to the end, that's up to them and I will play how I want
>>342100930
>every single female in this game must be 10/10 waifumaterial
But one of the biggest groups who wanted this are SJW who want men fucking each other
>>342101413
>please stop making deliberately ugly characters
then go play your dweebshit and watch your shitty anime, you fag
>>342101887
Not suprising, casual degenerates are found everywhere.
>>342101895
What exactly is the appeal of ugly characters?
You clearly like them, why?
>>342097703
Because games are designed around some form of profession.
>>342098289
Front Mission 3 has a seemingly mundance choice change the entire game.
I love how TB literally puts arguments in your hand by mentioning the Hepler fiasco.
Is your consumer entitled to skipping parts of your game? Yes, but they should expect a sub-par experience, in fact there should be no reason ever to make that feature useful.
Should you create game content with skipping in mind? Fuck no. The game should be an entity and if one of it's part is so superficial, that it can be painlessly removed, it's a shit part and you've failed as a game designer.
By saying you can skip levels in BO3, Treyarch basically said "we know these levels are basically setpieces for mindless shooting and it makes no difference in which order you'll visit them". And, guess what, that was actually what happened.
Content skipping is a good idea, but it may lead to bad practices.
>>342102036
what a shitty belief system
>>342101503
More like people will get excited and want to try it out and congratulate you for coming up with a new sport altogether.
>as you go
What does that even mean in this context?
>>342102815
Leaving a godmode hidden in the game to be unlocked through a cheatcode is a good idea, it means that if a particular part of the game is too hard you can trivialize it
Although this argument brings another to attention
Why not just have proper difficulty settings that can be changed on a whim?
>>342097703
fuck, why did I comment on his video. I must be a baka.
>>342102612
They make the world more immersive.
Now tell me why don't you just go watch some porno if you want to fap off to something?
why does /v/ tolerate TB, but sperg out on Jim Sterling?
TB's a silly tool
>>342103143
>Why not just have proper difficulty settings that can be changed on a whim?
Because retards will play in max dificulty to get the achivements and then cry is hard
>>342097703
When I hear "Skipping content" what comes to mind is a speedrunner or someone who wants to challenge themselves via intentionally missing optional upgrades
What I DON'T think is some pussy casual who can't even be bothered to actually play the game and just wants to pop in a glorified movie.
>>342103723
Those people exist though. Just look at GTA, you can skip missions because they are too hard and you are only interested in the story.
>TotalHemmorhoids is now unironically okay to be linked on /v/
fuck this world
>>342103706
Jesus don't remind me
Payday2 in particular springs to mind
>Hey here's this new ULTRA HARD difficulty that will push the limits of your teamwork and set up!
(even if most of that difficulty was artificial)
>pls nerf, it's too hard
I haven't even watched the video but I can basically hear the argument already.
>Comparing video games (a medium that is defined purely by player agency and interactivity) to books and/or movies (mediums that are purely passive with no interactivity).
Why the fuck does ANYONE think that video games need to be held back by "things that books and movies do" when that is expressly against the point?
>>342102993
>anon plays soccer with friends
>anon is a faggot
>anon thinks that he is tired of the rules
>anon starts digging a hole in the middle of the field
>friends ask "wtf, dude, ya went nuts of smth?"
>anon responds "this is my open world sandbox experience, I play it however I want. Now I want to dig a hole here and take a shit in it. you fuck off, its just the way I like to play soccer"
>friends go away while anon gleefully streches a turd into the hole
>friends never speak to the anon again
>friends have told their close relative to avoid anon
>one sunny day anon marches onto a professional football team's field mid-play
>starts jacking off
>security attempts to capture him
>anon run, cock in hand, "I don't care about YOUR rules, I payed for a ticket for this game, thus I get to choose how I play this game"
>>342097703
>oh noes, someone skipped through a game instead of playing it straight through like it was meant to be played
he's right, tho. whenever I feel like playing MW2, I sometimes wish I could just go to some of the later levels and play a level for half an hour or so.
>>342104032
>anon plays soccer with friends
>anon is a faggot
>anon thinks that he is tired of the rules
>anon picks up the ball and runs towards the goal with it
>rugby is born
>>342100568
Normal and nightmare's difficulty curves were just right.
>>342098231
He's always going to be in favor of anything that allows an optional shortcut because between chemo and whatever else he apparently doesn't have much time to play games
>>342104336
>Don't have time to play games
Then don't play, find some other activity you have time for
>I don't have time to read a book, I'll just read a summary instead
>>342104032
>>342104234
>Soccer
>>342106760
>Povertyball
>>342106834
>Niggerun
Isn't this a feature in versions of Doom and Wolfenstein 3D?
>>342107018
Don't you ever talk to me or my wife's son again!
