Why hasn't someone made an MMO without progression systems?
>No wasted play (or development time) on solo filler content
>Everyone can access everything from a level playing field, so the focus is on gameplay and not being shit
>Crafting is immediately available and used for diverse and interesting items or conveyances, it's just a matter of collecting the right materials
>open world zones are instead used for cooperative content, PvP, and world bosses
>the entire world is readily accessible because the main cities are giant floating fortresses, and the main form of transportation is gliding to your destination
Well?
>>341849184
MMOs are meant to reward players who put in countless hours. If everything were available immediately people would stop playing sooner.
>>341849451
Standard MMOs are, certainly.
But who's to say having actual fun won't keep people playing, too?
>>341849557
I mean, isn't this exactly why the massive popularity has shifted to MOBAs from MMOs?
I dont think people would play an MMO if they knew their character wasnt going to be any better after 100 hours of playing. That and if your not supposed to be leveling your character then i dont see what the goal of the game is supposed to be.
>>341849719
No that's because it's easier to get into but you still get the progression reward just in a shorter time span. You've also got the fact that each time you play a game it's gonna be somewhat fresh due to playing a different character.
>>341850118
How are MOBAs easier to get into than MMOs? You're clueless, nigger.
>>341849184
What is the point at changing levels to ilevels? Everything will be the same.
>>341850329
They're easier to get into but harder to get good at. MOBAs are piss easy that's why they're so fucking popular your dense nigger.
>>341849184
Because progression systems bring the most, lowest common denominator buckaroos.
Sense of progression helps to hook people and thats what they want. Since like and extreme example would be WoWs membership accounts and how some of them dont unsub and stop playimg brcause if they did then to them i would be like all that time would have been wasted with nothing gaines
>>341850405
>MOBAs are piss easy
Yeah, no. MOBAS are harder than the typical themepark MMO at all levels of play. Stop spouting bullshit, please.
>>341850574
>mobas
>hard
Yeah I'm leaving this discussion.
>>341849184
You're literally describing a moba like dota 2
>>341850650
They sure as fuck are when compared to MMOs, you halfwit.
>>341850650
Not him but he's right
Compare the first few hours of WoW to the first few hours of doto
In WoW you press 12121212 over and over until you ding 10 and change zones, they have to actively go out of your way to come close to dying
In doto you'll meet a few dozen smurfs that will rape your ass seven ways to sunday withing the first 5 minutes of laning phase
You don't buy into this 'lmao mobas are casual' /v/ meme without actually trying them out right
>>341850650
Leave as fast as you can, with my foot up your ass, you imbecile.
You have NO CLUE what you're talking about.
because the numbers ALWAYS have to go up.
by the way, while not all of your points fully apply to EVE it still DOES solve these problems differently. Any 'success' in that game is governed a LOT more by player skill and experience than by character 'level'
I guess the easy answer is: because that would make less money, even if it was succesful it would never live as long as a game where most people spend the first year getting to the real content
>>341849184
Skill-based MMOs always sound fun but in reality they'd only have a very small playerbase which wouldn't be feasible to support with multiple servers etc. MMOs today are successful because they pander to the absolute lowest skill casuals, which make up the majority of gamers today, while still having "hardcore" stuff for raiders which usually involves just getting better gear and spamming the same tactics.
MMOs are like socialism, everyone feels entitled to "their part" and will complain if they can't do certain things, because they just don't want to make the effort but are still entitled little shits anyway.
The main problem with your idea op, is that the main reward in your game would be being part of a world. This doesn't work anymore because, due to the amount of social sites (twitter, facebook, etc.), people (casual players) already fulfil their desire to be part of a group online. On the the other hand, non-casual players aren't interested because they need something more tangible than being part of a group.
>>341849184
Then how are devs going to make money out of it?
>>341850849
>memes
No I've played most mobas out there and they're shit easy the first hundred or so games until you meet players of your own skill level. And I've never heard a hard time with any fucking moba because they're crap easy.
>>341851153
>you've got no clue but i do
I've always felt like a free to play game with JUST raids and a basic public hub / guild system would be cool. I mean, that's the most fun part of most MMOs to play with your friends, and it's what most people want to do. Why not just cut to the chase? No leveling, but lots of gear progression - it'd be a great game to just hop in and play with your friends a few times a week to raid, without any of the pressure to stay "current" or whatever.
>>341851538
Cosmetics, obviously. I never understand games that don't center their monetization around cosmetics. The number of people who go batshit autismo for cosmetics is staggering. Half of them don't even care about playing the game. It's free money to fuel content.
>>341849184
So you mean FFXI?
>>341851647
Stop posting. Every time you post you reveal just how retarded you are.
>>341852059
You should stop posting as you reveal how shit you're at games.
>>341849184
I'll take World's Adrift for $1000, Alex.
Black Desert pretty much opens up right at the beginning. Good sandbox grinding game.
I've been crafting since day 1.
>>341852247
I thought exactly this. Sounded like OP was going to start shilling it it's tha t uncanny.
>>341849184
>no progression
>[CURRENT_YEAR]
People only play video games for the cheap thrill of "progression", they don't give a shit about story, atmosphere, etc.
And by the way, there used to be plenty of level-less MMOs like Ultima Online, Asheron's Call, countless MUDs / MUSHes
>>341849827
>i dont see what the goal of the game is supposed to be.
To have fun, you fucking millennial piece of garbage.
>>341850404
>What is the point at changing levels to ilevels?
Because there's multiple ways to get gear (most of which involve above average skill or cooperation) , but only one way to level up (which, in the modern era, requires time and nothing else).
>>341849184
Not sure I understand what you want. No one's going to keep playing if they have nothing to work towards.
>>341850650
Why aren't you making millions wrecking people then?
>>341853309
Because there exists more then 2 skill gaps.
>>341849184
So you want to play Rust only with boss monsters and gliders?
>>341852852
>>341852247
Well, I've never heard of that game so no.
It also sounds like it has no actual dungeon, raid, or PvP content, so it's probably exactly the opposite of what I'm talking about. I'm not looking for some pseudo-survival game
I'm just someone who loves the format of MMO content and player interaction, but absolutely hates questing and leveling.
>>341853046
It's not like we're building a game with words here, or trying to convince some passing game developer to make this game immediately.
Just having a conversation. I want an MMO where my motivation to play is to have fun, be a part of the world, and experience the sort of coordinated content that make up all of the best parts of them.
There are experiences you can have in MMOs that are really strange and interesting that you'd never be able to have IRL. I want a game that focuses on those experiences instead of all of the inane shit MMOs have become known for.
>>341853424
you re making a game about nothing because theres nothing to achieve, theres no progress in it
>>341853424
>dungeon
Not exactly
>raid
Party to party raids
>PvP content
You didn't even watch a video on it, I can tell.
You build a ship, install cannons and other weaponry, use that to engage at distance, close distance, use your glider to board enemy ship with your skill based 3rd person shooting of guns you had to previously craft.
>leveling
Nope
>questing
Not unless you count actually going out in search of ruins, crashed ships, artifacts, etc that you actually use for your own personal gain a quest.
>>341849184
GW2 champions this for the most part.
But there is still plenty of minor progression to keep you interested.
Most people seem utterly incapable of playing a game purely for the quality of it's content, particularly those in the MMO scene.
WoW friends are especially insufferable in this regard.
Hopefully either Crowfall or Camelot Unchained take this type of content > progression style of gameplay to the next level.
Until they release though, with the exception of Guildwars 2, the MMO scene is stagnant to dead.
>>341853424
You're in the minority. You can consider any MMO today to be a boring single player game with bots. The tricky part is finding a balance between the social aspect (at one extreme you could just have an avatar chatroom thing) and the gameplay aspect (e.g. MOBAs or arena shooters which have basically no social interaction outside of swearing Russian kids and "gg ez").
Some thoughts:
>Ditch the medieval fantasy setting, it's been done to death at this point and is incredibly stale
>Encourage social interaction by greatly reducing single player quests (e.g. you need a quest item that can only be made by other players, or yourself if you have the skills/items for it)
>Remove any detailed story - this isn't a single player game, there aren't over 9000 "chosen ones" or whatever. Give players a general goal of exploration and maybe clearing a series of final raids that are REALLY hard and require lots of skill and teamwork
There's still the problem of longevity. I guess you could keep adding patches with new content, but even that is a temporary solution to the problem of the game itself being boring at this point (see WoW and FFXIV). I guess the content would have to actually be new and innovative stuff instead of "another generic dungeon", "the next gear that's linearly better than your current gear and will again be made obsolete by the gear after that" etc.
One game I'm looking forward to is "Let it Die", apparently it has a mechanic where if you die, the game creates a copy of your character with your gear and playstyle that roams around the world. Dunno how well it'll work in practice but we need more cool shit like that instead of "collect 10 boar assholes".
>>341854195
>crowfall
>not trials of ascension
You're the shill from yesterday, aren't you?
>describing eve
>>341854558
>no progression in EVE
You what
>>341854558
>eve
>no progression
Anon...
>>341854250
>medieval fantasy setting, it's been done to death
If you mean MMOs that just use sword+board/bows/ect
But if you actually mean the aesthetics of medieval + fantasy I have to disagree. Every MMO has either been overdesigned High Fantasy (WoW, FF, TESO) , Sci-fi or modern fantasy (secret world). Actual medieval aesthetic in a fantasy setting is rare as fuck, in fact I cant think of any except those quasi MMO-survival games like Life is Feudal.
>>341855130
>life is feudal
more like life is boring baka
>>341855513
How they could think digging a trench taking literally hours was a good gameplay mechanic is beyond me
All these MMOs go for super slow, long term crafting/building mechanics when it should be the other way around. Make crafting and building quick but destroying them easy. Force the world to have movement and dynamics, not stagnation. Its paradoxical but you would have people playing for longer because the game is more fun, rather than forcing grinding as your method of keeping people playing with a minuscule playerbase.
>>341849184
Because nobody actually wants to play that. Or at least not enough people to sustain the costs
>>341855130
Yeah I did mean more "paladin, rogue, healer" etc types. Like you say, you can get various different designs of it (from sci fi to JRPG high fantasy) but at their core they're basically the same. I don't think there should even be "classes" like that.
>inb4 "muh holy trinity, it just works"
>>341849184
Because progression systems are the only way to ensure that scrubs can git gud.
>MMO is not designed around collecting things
Why the fuck is this allowed?
Instead of all this levelling grinding bullshit, how about making massive ass fucking dungeons, PROCEDURALLY, then going in and manually tidying up things in Maya, adding some decoration, sorted. (or go the alternate route and make a massively fucking in-depth procedural generator using superformula)
Add in things to collect.
THAT is what makes you stronger.
Equipment will give you certain advantages and disadvantages.
The rarer it is, the lesser the disadvantages and greater the advantages.
Can also collect things to add in to a guild house or your own personal house.
A world so huge you could build anywhere. (optionally even have different servers with same seed but without protection for buildings and such, so you can get a bit of that Minecraft rage in)
Elder Scrolls Online is doing this, bar raids.
dungeons are already scaled
expansion zones are already scaled
Come the fall, all zones are scaled
>>341855781
Tree of Savior, for all its flaws, has a fantastic number of skills and classes that actually works as an improved trinity.
Too bad the rest of the game is shite.
>>341849451
>Get to level cap in a couple days.
>Gear up for the raid in a week or so doing dungeons.
>Gear up from various raid difficulties over the next few months.
>Spend the next several years grinding vanity items, mounts, pets, titles, legendaries, reputations, etc.
Being at level cap and having everything are two different things though.
no progression > no skinner boxes > no subscriptions > not worth the production effort
it's like asking why are there no shit mobile games without microtransactions
>>341854558
The skill system in EVE is literally skill^rank. The last rank provides the biggest bonus, and usually takes at least a week to get.
>>341849827
You will get better at playing the game though. Plenty of games carry themselves on that only.
An MMO already does do that, OP. It's EVE Online.
>>341856646
EVE is predicated entirely on a huge progression system called Skills
>>341856270
Fucking this so hard. There's so much that you can have players collect and work toward that doesn't cause stat inflation. Course it has to be fun things, not shit, to make people want to spend the effort to collect em.
Guild Wars 1 did this pretty well.
>>341855708
You don't want an MMO, you want Garry's Mod.
Seriously there are a shitton of servers that do exactly this, and they've been around since like 2006.
Youre describing Minecraft OP
Like, what's that one MMO /v/ plays together all the time? All the land is free for people to claim and everything develops in real time such as trees growing and animals wandering across the map?
>>341857990
Wurm Online?
>>341849827
UO didnt have "levels" but you earned points in skills as you used them.
you started with 100 points distributed across all your skills, with a cap of 100 in any given skill, as you improved, your base pool of skill increased up to the max of 700, so at endgame essentially you could have 7 skills maxed out, or a mixture of whatever you liked, but also you could redistribute these skills through use at any time, so a guy skilled up in melee combat could over time transition to being a mage or a chef or a dressmaker or whatever he wanted.
success wasnt about levelling and getting raid loot, it was just about doing whatever you wanted and getting rich (then buying shit like houses etc)
