![fantasy-sandbox-crafting-mmorpg-greed-monger-mmo-games-screenshot-2[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/r8SEAWE.jpg "fantasy-sandbox-crafting-mmorpg-greed-monger-mmo-games-screenshot-2[1].jpg")
Hey /v/, what happened to sandbox MMOs? And I don't mean those that are ONLY focused on building shit like Wurm Online, I mean proper "virtual world" MMOs where you can do anything and they're accepting of various playstyles (PvP, raiding, socializing, exploring, crafting, economy, politics etc.) and you can focus on yours but still do a little bit of others too.
From what I've gathered in the past few years, ti seems that sandbox MMOs have devolved into two things: P2W cash shop games where you literally have to buy things for your house/city/whatever in the shop, and small server-size survival multiplayer games where you generally build defenses against zombies and such and get fucked up by Russian hackers and nothing is very persistent.
Anyway, discuss!
https://chroniclesofelyria.com/
You're just begging this to be shilled aren't you?
Mortal online
People realized match making was what they wanted all along.
If you mean gankbox MMOs, people realized they're flawed shit and can never really succeed.
>>340159964
Well, it's not like it exists, apparently it's still in KS stage, so who gives a shit. They already got their free money so they don't even have to make a decent game now.
>>340159964
That game will be a major disappointment.
>>340159973
I always wanted to like that conceptually, but its just broken on a fundamental level for what it's trying to achieve. You can't have a justice system where the nature of a player's crime is determined by a built in alignment/guilt system. If a player decides to aggress against another there's no ultimate way to flag who was really 'in the right' based on a convoluted system of statuses and cool-downs that people are going to game.
>>340160075
People like this is why they are dead.
>>340159964
>1 million dollars raised
>You can do anything!
Quality scam, but Star Citizen is still the con king.
>>340160085
I actually backed it, based on the principal that if anyone is ever going to do something like this and make it not shit, this is the last semi-realistic chance at anything coming about. There's a fair chance I've wasted my money the player interaction and incentives in this seem to have been actually thought out in a non half-assed way and I'd rather go down trying while knowing the risk rather than never supporting it at all.
>>340160562
>let's kill everyone in the game until they quit
>wow nobody plays this shit anymore
>>340159880
I just want game that lets me be blacksmith or something like inPuzzle Pirates
>>340160684
>I hate meaningful competition
>>340160649
Protip: when you give someone free money before they do the job, they tend to do a half-assed bare-minimum-not-to-be-sued job.
>>340160769
>meaningful
>literally who has the largest group wins
>>340159880
Does this count? Used to be addicted to it, although it did generally involve spending money.
>>340160953
So? You gather a group of your own and return to take your place back. That was fun. This sanitized and safe bullshit is boring.
>>340160953
>>340161189
Or even sometimes, accept the loss and move on somewhere else.
But ofc people need to win every time.
>>340160741
That game would be gold if people didn't hack every fucking puzzle.
>>340161189
Sure, invite Goons and make it even more fun.
>>340160953
>I'm too autistic to play with other people because it resembles a social situtation
>>340161319
Goons just got btfo by plebbit scrubs in eve who are now skirmishing among themselves and having a pretty fun time
The normalfags won. Instead of living an alternate life in a virtual gameworld, you have people who just want to shoot the shit with their already existing real life buddies while watching numbers go up.
>>340161235
>Or even sometimes, accept the loss and move on somewhere else
But that's literally what happens when people quit the game. It's no fun to get stomped repeatedly because you don't have as high numbers, and no one will stick to a game that isn't fun to them. Then they quit and people bitch that there's no longer anyone playing.
itt fotm shitter trying to obscurely shitpost about black desert because he's moved onto next fotm game like the little shitter pleb he is
>>340160953
>I'm not good at it, and don't like losing:the post
>>340161548
Never even played Black Desert, but it amuses me that you chose to read it that way.
>>340161652
>numbers = being good
Or are you implying that numbers don't make the entire difference in these games?
>>340160840
>half-assed bare-minimum-not-to-be-sued job
That's kind of why I backed it, because even if most of it sucks, which I actively expect to be the case, it will still be better than most MMOs because the basic, minimalist design should encourage higher quality player interaction than anything else on the market, and that should be enough. If the combat is shit and just about poking sticks at the other man, and you bet it will be, that's enough. I don't expect them to deliver on the whole super dungeon creation thing either, but just basic shit like housing, contracts, death and such are just basically decent enough that I'll consider them me only hope of having a proper MMO that isn't Eve: Spreadsheet simulator.
That's the core of why I've given money to them and not Darkfall or Mortal Online, neither of which I trust to ever deliver the shit I care about.
>>340161235
Not really fun to constantly have to compete with faggots who WILL kill you.
>>340161687
>shitter pleb still trying to lie
>>340161542
If all the people who quit because they got their shit pushed in formed a group instead of crying then they could have probably retaken this hypothetical thing back. What's not fun about that? You get ganked, an enemy force has taken some of your land, so you go and gather allies to win it back, or you go take something of theirs to compensate.
That is what MMO's should be like.
>>340161352
>implying there is any sort of meaningful socialization in those situations
You get a huge circlejerk with an inner group of egocentric retards leading a wider group of cocksuckers that hope to be noticed someday.
>>340161751
Strategy and skill are also determining factors, at least in the MMO's I've played. Some are better than others, maybe you should find the right one.
>>340161751
Depends on balance.
Eve got shit because CCP succumbed to goons refusing to adapt to people with big toys. Tracking titans weren't actually that OP, they only thing they murdered was MWD sig bloom drakes, and so goons only flew those against tracking titans instead of something like AHACs which were shown to counter them a few times.
Fozziesov is a meta change that was long overdue and exposed goons for the terrible group of players they are.
>>340161957
Except you can't always form a group the size of people who organize things from a huge forum completely outside the game.
>>340159964
i feel like the only reason this managed to get funded over stuff like trials of ascension is because these devs understood the value of having something to show first before asking for money for a semi-permadeath game
Out of all the MMOs I played, I feel like Mabinogi was the only one that did it in a way that was the closest to being fun.
While personally I feel like they failed to execute a lot of their ideas well, I appreciate the fact that you could do so much without having to swing a sword.
Mortal Online and Darkfall Online should still be alive.
>>340161957
Eve newbies who are involved in pvp in their first month are 80% more likely to remain subbed.
>>340162057
EVE died because it became P2W when they officially allowed RMT.
>>340161879
>pretending he can read minds and projecting his inner retard on other people
>>340162141
Plex isn't p2w, skill injectors aren't even that bad desu
Eve died because the meta was stagnant for too long and the PVE is absolutely awful with no roadmap for change.
>>340162130
>why do people stop playing games that aren't fun to play?
>>340162274
>Plex isn't p2w
How is being able to pay for unlimited replacement ships and buy anything that exists in the game with real money not P2W?
>>340162130
darkfall online has 2 dev groups trying to make their own revive projects. one is in paid beta now.
Rise of Agon and New Dawn.
Not sure which will be the better one yet though
>>340159880
>Hey /v/, what happened to sandbox MMOs?
Everyone else realized that SANDBOX > THEMEPARK was CCP's advertising department doing work back when EVE was still in full Guerilla marketing mode, and so went back to making whatever the fuck they wanted instead of trying to ride the imaginary hype train of Sandbox bullshit.
The problem is that 99% of "sandbox" mmo's are too afraid to take the final step to allow players to be in charge of everything.
EVERYTHING should be player driven. People come together to become guilds, the guilds build cities, the leaders become "kings", death is not necessarily permanent but something to be feared to the point that you'll avoid it by any costs necessary, economies are decided by players, people can be merchants, warriors, bards blah blah. Not because of any skill or class that says that's what they are, but because that's what they fuckin' do.
No one has the balls to go that far, so you always get some pseudo-sandbox that just ends up essentially a themepark with no fucking content.
EVE is one of the few examples where the players can really decide things, but it's still not enough.
>>340162454
Wasn't one of them already closed indefinitely?
>>340162549
Not that i know of. They've barely even started
>>340162130
They could be, but Darkfall turned into the complete gankfest focused community it did ages ago and couldn't give a shit about the politics it was originally supposed to support. Mortal Online is just a bunch of shit slapped together without real vision that I cant ever see turning into something great.
>s-s-socializing triggers m-my autism!
>>340159880
>Hey /v/, what happened to sandbox MMOs?
pasta inc
Older MMOs tended to have both sheep and wolves playing the same games, since they were the only games around. Now, the sheep play games where they cannot be hunted, and the wolves keep starving in search of prey.
For a sandbox to be successful, it needs both sheep and wolves. But if a sheep can choose a completely safe fold, rather than the fold where the wolves can come in, why would they choose the latter?
>>340162329
I don't think that this (You) was meant for me.
>>340162542
>>No one has the balls to go that far, so you always get some pseudo-sandbox that just ends up essentially a themepark with no fucking content.
That's because 99% of the players are retards and game systems are easily exploitable.
For example, if you let players build a city entirely from scratch, it's going to be a borg cube instead of an actual medieval-looking city. And that applies to any other gameplay system.
>>340162542
The problem with that idea is that you will get some three months of a good game, and then someone wins, becomes the hegemonic group reaping all benefits from it and it's virtually impossible to overthrow them, and then the game dies. It's happened a hundred times before. The only way to avoid this happening is to make the game huge enough.
>>340162728
I don't disagree, I'm just point out exactly why we don't have such things. I don't think it's impossible to have a truly player driven game, but the time and investment would probably not be worth the pay off.
>>340162542
Nothing better than building your own settlement that is then destroyed by group of angry Russians that have too much time at hand. Pure joy.
>>340162542
Hence, why I'm supporting Elyria, it's the only thing I can see that actually has the balls to do this whole-assed and realizes what a mistake it would be to try to fall back on 'safe' features that only end up as things players would exploit because other players cant decide to take things into their own hands and intervene.
Server-based wurm is pretty comfy
>>340162859
It's perfectly possible to have a sandbox game that's just as player driven without bullshit like that happening though, as long as you define roles that make sense in the gameworld, and encourage the "spirit of the game" through the game mechanics. It just requires developers who actually want to make a good game, not just put something out and not give a shit about what's happening in it.
I can give you a few examples from SWG if you don't think it would be too boring.
>>340162992
Eh, I have bad news for you, CoE is exactly like that too. People apparently read a few lines about the game and believe the game is specifically how they want it to be. The developers have already stared several times that the game will be merciless with people who commit crimes, NPCs won't have deals with you, and whatnot. The game has set in stone systems and you can only really do what has been programmed by devs.
>>340162728
>That's because 99% of the players are retards and game systems are easily exploitable.
And that's exactly why you want thing to be as player driven as possible, because exploits arise when players only sort of have control, but there are also system enforced things that players can't do shit to. If you have safe zones, gankers will use those safe zones to protect shit. If you have an automatic justice system, people will find edge cases. If you don't have these things, then there is nothing to completely hide you from the wrath of other players, who may well exile you.
>>340160684
Pretty much this, I used to love the idea of sandbox MMO's till I realized they die very quickly as they are lawless shit holes full of man children.
>>340163008
i want to get into wurm but never have really. is there a significant difference browser wurm and unlimited?
>>340162379
Because paying for unlimited replacement ships isn't winning. It doesn't fulfill a victory condition.
I'm guessing you haven't played eve much
>>340163280
>lawless
balance the incentives to hunt down murderers
>>340163332
>Because paying for unlimited replacement ships isn't winning. It doesn't fulfill a victory condition.
Fuck off autistic retard.
>>340159964
>We're on kickstarter
It will be shit.
>>340161957
>Just form another group! Surely everyone has a horde of autistic manchildren dedicated to roaming around fucking shit up exactly like me and my friends!
Nah nigga, I play alone cause its my hobby, my other friends are grown up with kids so they don't play this shit.
>>340162542
I guess that the problems are:
A) It's hard to make a game that will work like that
B) It's hard to get a game like that and still be balanced, without just making the first guy in power the king of everything forever.
C) It means that hackers and gold farmers will have an even more adverse effect on the game.
D) Everyone will just look up the same 4 guides on how to optimize their character to be as OP as possible, might as well have classes to at least force people to co-operate. Plus, with so much focus on player driven gameplay no one will dare risk making a gimmick or fun build in case they gimp themselves and are never able to compete. Everyone will just play it safe.
E) It relies too much on people playing the game because they enjoy it and not setting out to dick everyone else over. Or continuing to play the game instead of just stopping and screwing with the game's economy/politics through their absence.
G) It would intimidate potential players. What would motivate them to play an MMO that's a year old and run by an established old boy's club leadership?
>>340163440
Nothing better than ganking the shit out of people who try to p2w in eve and get salty about it.
>>340163381
That's already the devs intervening into the "player-defined" world though. The truth is that you will never get a beautiful setting with realistic law system in a game full of internet retards that play just to destroy everything others want to build.
This discussion about sandbox MMO's remided me about those play-by-post games. They are basically forum based free form roleplaying.
I did some reading and there are not only a few role play threads in game forums with deep lore, but there are entire forums dedicated to that thing.
Perhaps I should join one of them. I don't know which though.
>>340163536
Tell me how do you "gank" someone who can buy the best possible character with all skills for the best possible ship and repeat this ad infinitum?
Is the /v/ Wurm thing still going on? I was playing towards the end of April but the server stopped appearing in my browser so I haven't played it since then. Was a shame too because I was making my house in Browaii.
>>340163329
As far as I can tell, just the absence of a monthly fee and the restrictions on skills and shit that came with not being premium. I think some of the items behave differently, but I can't be sure because the wiki for Wurm is exclusively for the MMO Version.
>>340163519
>playing MMO's alone
>>340163381
>give incentives
Dev interference and thus not sandbox
>hunt down murderers
You see the problem with the entire sandbox mmo thing is that it has real world freedom without real world consequence. We don't rob, rape, loot, and sack because we cant just log out and be safe. When people can kill, gank, and then just log out till the heat dies down, it makes the entire sandbox system moot and pointless, its a chaos riddled shit hole..
WHen they CANT, then its just a system of waiting till the kids go to bed then killing them while they sleep...which is equally bullshit.
>>340163784
>playing MMO's period
>>340163823
>Dev interference and thus not sandbox
You don't understand the definition of sandbox if that's what you think. The entire game itself is "dev interference".
![L3vEFrK[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/kdpJ0xo.png "L3vEFrK[1].png")
>>340163784
I always played MMOs alone, sandbox ones even, and always had great fun doing it.
For example, playing a bounty hunter or a smuggler in SWG was great even with no guild or anyone backing you. You could also have a steady supply of money as a crafter who crafted only basic things - for example having a little swoop shop where you sold swoop bikes and vehicle customization kits.
>>340164042
Yeah, that guy is getting into some really weird territory.
>>340164058
I miss SWG. Why do nice things have to get ruined?
>>340164172
Because WoW
>>340161542
>>340161875
Ok, I find fun in getting good and beating the people who beat me eventually; I guess this isn't for everyone.
Also game devs need to balance around skill rather than items or you can never "catch up"
Also people must drop some of their bag/armour when then die.
Thing about sandbox MMOs is that the Russians/Chinese always win. They are a swarm. They do not sleep. Games like Rust or Reign of Kings aren't fun when chinks or ruskis are in a group playing 24/7 raiding people during unsociable hours.
Appeals to a niche crowd though, definitely. Hear stories of people who play EVE in the bigger corps and they get text messages from their leaders during the day to tell them to get on and take part in a big fight.
>>340164463
Some chinese prisons force their prisoners to farm wow gold for westerners to buy.
>>340163531
>A) It's hard to make a game that will work like that
Yep, it'd be a ballsy undertaking for sure.
>B) It's hard to get a game like that and still be balanced, without just making the first guy in power the king of everything forever.
In a player-driven game, a "king" only has the power the players give him.
>D) Everyone will just look up the same 4 guides on how to optimize their character to be as OP as possible, might as well have classes to at least force people to co-operate. Plus, with so much focus on player driven gameplay no one will dare risk making a gimmick or fun build in case they gimp themselves and are never able to compete. Everyone will just play it safe.
It's not truly sandbox and player-driven if there are classes or skills. These are things that tell you what you are. The player should be the one telling the game what they are with their own skills and abilities to play the game. Wanna be a merchant? Make smart trades and understand market flow. Wanna be a warrior? git gud. Wanna be a cook? Learn the recipes and cook the shit. I do think stats to some degree are important, for example if you "train" often you'll be stronger
>E) It relies too much on people playing the game because they enjoy it and not setting out to dick everyone else over. Or continuing to play the game instead of just stopping and screwing with the game's economy/politics through their absence.
A truly sandbox game would mimic real life. People set out to do things that are in their own best interests and you determine if those interests line up with yours or they're just bullshitting you to back stab you.
>G) It would intimidate potential players. What would motivate them to play an MMO that's a year old and run by an established old boy's club leadership?
I don't understand why it would intimidate new players. I mean shit, you could always find something to do even if it's bringing lots of smaller guilds together to challenge the "king" or something.
>>340163249
Would be cool if dickass thieves have black market area for their own dickery dealing
sandboxes are about winning AND losing
problem is that most of the people wont stay in the game after they lose once. I have been playing Mortal Online for years now and while its a complete turd, theres not much to choose from. It was the real Darkfall that had its servers shutdown last week. So theres now 2 fanprojects left but not the "real" one.
I started MO in a small guild but we quickly realised that a small guild would have unnecessary hard times between the massive alliances. So we formed our own zerg and we ruled for a while but then inactivity hit and we got annihilated. I stayed and played with a smaller group. We got bullied by big alliances and guilds daily and in the end our entire city was leveled down just becouse. We relocated and started gathering new allies and friends. In just over a year, we were part of one of the strongest growing alliances in the game. Our old enemies made few major mistakes that allowed us to go into open war with them. We won the war and destroyed those that had bullied us. We ruled as one of the biggest alliance for years, but as all ruling factions, we would not rule for ever and in the end inactivity hit our alliance again and we got destroyed by new and old enemies. Now Im living in a small guild again.
Its constant forward and backward walking and I love it. One major problem that I see tho, is the fact that theres no survival aspect in the game. So when theres not struggle of survival, theres no proper economy. When the economy is stagnant, it doesnt encourage people to backstab their friends. When you dont have a single reason to backstab anyone, it turns the game into very few "factions". That consist of people who have played together for years. These factions that take turns as the leading alliance and the politics are deadly boring and unsurprising.
If only one of these upcoming sandboxes like Life is Feudal MMO or Chronicles of elyria, would realise that a proper economy is a source of unlimited content.
>>340159964
The programmer has a salt lamp for EMF.
Yay, programmers aware of their ultimate creativity kill.
This game could do good on that alone.
I feel like Rust does Sandboxes pretty well. The key to a good sandbox MMO or anything is that you have to make the players really feel like they're earning everything through hard work. Then they attribute value to their digital progress and won't act like wonton retards.
>play rust
>build a base next to a few neighbours
>at first we are hostile
>constant back and forth battling
>we finally get sick of losing all our shit to each other and to other invaders
>sign a peace treaty
>soon we develop into a town
>then a village when more people join
>chaos turned into order out of the sheer desire not to lose our hard work
That's the key, Of course we raped and pillaged other stragglers and clans forming that posed a threat. But that's for them to deal with..
>>340162542
>the leaders become "kings"
HOL UP
>>340162687
>have mental issues that make social interaction difficult
>play a game involving social interaction
Exactly what degree of autismo is necessary for this?
>>340166040
The kind that kills MMORPGs.
>>340159964
>>340159964
I was full hype for this game, even 250 for baron title, then, as i was explaining the game to a bro, as i was listening to myself practically shill the game, i realized i had 0 proof of concept. Everything was the proverbial communist "everything will be amazing i swear"
my hype has died down because of this, but im still optimistic for it
As for the OP, the best you can do, apart from indie servers for SW:G and wurm online, is MAYBE Albion online, very guild/company meta, but very build your own characters identity
>>340164172
WoW challenged everyone and SOE tried to compensate by nuking the sandbox system and turning it similar to WoW
turns out you can't have an autistic hybrid game with half-assed gameplay/sandbox mechanics, but it was star wars so it kinda stayed for a few years
>>340160741
I actually managed my gf to play this game with me. FINALLY after 3 years i found her gateway drug.
>>340165181
MMOs really only have 1 of 3 general directions
Themparks, Sandboxes, and Fightclubs
You can really only have 2 of the 3 and still have a good game
Problem is, almost all of the MMO market nowadays is themepark e-sports hopefuls. Going for sandbox with No mans sky, CoE, SC and so on are good hype, because no one charges you to spread this by word of mouth, but not many people, apart from a committed few, are going to dump the stats and time needed for a REALLY indepth sandbox.
10 off years ago though, with SW:G, and the like, it was paradise
>>340159880
too much work to balance.
>>340159880
>raiding
This little guy is the murderer of Sandboxes. If you make raiding a thing for a game like Wurm Online or SWG, you effectively rob the entire purpose of a sandbox, which is to do whatever you want, from growing materials/crafting/exploring, to what then becomes production lines and cookie cutters
Raiding is for themeparks, and Politics are for sandboxes, and it's best if those stay exlusive
>>340167413
SWG had raiding and was no worse off for it.
Perhaps you're thinking of a specific raid type that has clearly defined gear progression tiers common in themepark games?
>>340163329
find a community to play with and you'll be having a fun time. ive lost over 800 hours to this game, playing like 2-3 hours per day.
Dont stick to just one profession in Wurm, play a little bit of everything, makes it that much more fun and less of a grind.
>>340167618
Im thinking of WoW tier raids, where you had people robbed of any immersion for the little sandboxy elements vanilla wow had. If you were online and in a guild doing raids, you had to commit that time to crafting/collecting materials or doing off-raid upgrades
if that shit came round in CoE, the entire purpose of the Medieval simulator would be thrown to the wayside
>>340165097
>It's not truly sandbox and player-driven if there are classes or skills. These are things that tell you what you are. The player should be the one telling the game what they are with their own skills and abilities to play the game. Wanna be a merchant? Make smart trades and understand market flow. Wanna be a warrior? git gud. Wanna be a cook? Learn the recipes and cook the shit. I do think stats to some degree are important, for example if you "train" often you'll be stronger
The problem with this is that most MMORPG-s have a waaaay too fast experience rate and they focus on endgame instead of the midgame. Sandbox MMORPGs should be like real life, some people are better and some people are worse than you.
>>340167883
I genuinely, and severely miss Brohalla, and i curse the dev's from the bottom of my heart that they couldn't handle fun
>>340163581
Mizahar was pretty good, not sure how it's going now. Some of the moderators are pretty temperamental though.
Nobody wants to play them, so few try to capitalize on the potential market.
>>340163823
>You see the problem with the entire sandbox mmo thing is that it has real world freedom without real world consequence
Exactly that.
>>340168467
Most people are pretty good at -something-. In most sandbox games combat is the only things that matters, so no one wants to be the guy that sucks at it, even because that also means everyone else in the game will take a dump on you.
>>340165097
>In a player-driven game, a "king" only has the power the players give him.
This isn't true.
Clans that form outside the game, as well as friendships and racial divisions means that certain groups will have power for a very long time due to their sheer numbers.
A game needs natural disasters and other threats to make 'kings' still have pressure at their door step. Just make such disasters and threats apolitical, though, so they aren't designed solely to kill the prevailing players.
>>340169278
Well, imagine it like this. Warriors need armor, weapons, food, homes etc. There will always be other things that are very important in a true sandbox experience.
>>340169505
Which no one will want to do, because in at least 99% of cases, people playing videogames already have real lives to do routine tasks in, and look for something else in a game.
>>340165097
Not to shill the word document known as CoE any more, but Kings/Queens, along with the other aristocratic roles in the works, are actually the inverse
They have power from the start, and distribute it among the other players....or get assassinated and replaced
>>340169842
>>Which no one will want to do
Yet they wanted to do it in UO and SWG just fine. Guess they all died in the meantime.
>Hey /v/, what happened to sandbox MMOs?
They got replaced by shitty korean games.
>>340169842
I play Rust and you're full of shit. So many people are happy to resource collect so long as theyre given protection and some sense of 'fun' (ie through a community raid every now and then, and given tools to pick on scrubs when theyre bored)
>>340169842
I for one usually play a blacksmith/tailor/leatherworker in some sandbox games, i provide people with the means to fight and earn a big big profit in doing so and hire those warriors to fight for me and protect me. You just have to find your own thing in a game, most new generation gamers are stupid and dont find hard work enough of a reason for it to pay off later, they want instantaneous rewards for like minging a rock and LEVELUP FUCK YEAH. id rather work with very minimal skill gain and see my hard work pay off when i see im way better than some other guy that focused on other things.
>>340159880
Waiting for a Mount & Blade MMO
>>340170736
*Little fixing needed*
For example wurm has like standard skillgain of 1.0, some even go as balls to the walls and increase it even more to level up faster, in return that gets people bored pretty soon and is not really rewarding, the community i play in we have instantaneous crafting but the skillgain is 0.1 of the normal one, its very slow yet you still get shit one. after a few months i discovered myself that im the only one that can craft good quality armors which i buy from a miner that gets good quality metals.
>>340159880
Archeage had it in alpha but its P2W shithole now
>>340161548
>black desert
> a sandbox
spotted the retard
So is CoE going to be Eve Online, but medieval instead of space?
>>340169505
Problem is, there is usually no depth to those things. It's just grinder or more of a hassle. The only fun thing to do in those games is combat.
>>340173075
No, people are taking it to be something it won't.
>>340171370
God damn it.
>>340173282
That depends on the person m8. I could sit there and grind forever if it produced results. It's just the kind of person I am. Hard work should pay off, after all.
>>340169505
>you can get X with skill X
>you can get Y with skill Y
>you can get X, Y, Z, A, W, B, D, L with combat skills and being a dick
There is literally no game that makes non-combat roles worth it. The best you can get is combat people who also do other things.
>>340159880
Because WoW happened, and had a huge success among casuals, so now everyone and their mother tries to copy it.
Give it up. UO will never happen again, Lineage 2 will never happen as well.
>>340173386
From what is being published, with companies and houses and nobility, and trade contracts and what have you, it sounds like it will be Wurm Online + Elder scrolls, with a very Eve system in play
>>340173075
seems like it might be pretty cool, people behind it seem to be passionate. Jaded little shitters on /v/ will dismiss it instantly but only time will tell my dude.
>>340173748
It most definitely won't a sandbox game like people are expecting it to be though. Everything bad you do will come back to bite you in the ass.
>>340173810
They promise too much and have a real circlejerk forums telling them the game is the next coming of God and that it'll be great even if it's shit, and that the guy behind the game is a god as well.
>>340173857
Not that anon, but they said if you toss on a big hooded cloak nobody will know who you are unless you are caught being a shitter in the act and have it ripped off of you.
Then again you can always just go live with some bandits in the wild.
>>340173857
That's if you have an aristocratic role above baron though, what with being able to deploy the kingdom's army on never-do-wells
i doubt selling a warehouses worth of stone slabs for 5% more than last rotation would be something that ruins the game
>>340174024
it's one of the downsides of talking about something before producing it.
>>340159880
Sandboxes don't fucking sell, they only cater to a niche group of people. Casual players dont want perma death, autistic crafting that takes years to get decent at, or a horizontal progression system that takes theorycrafting and grinding nonstop to break the game.
Themepark MMOs are what attract a large audience and make the big money. You make AAA video games like MMOs solely for money, not to entertain a small class of neckbeards.
>>340174116
You have to have a very good quality disguise, anon. Just as you have means to hide the sheriffs have means to get you as well. It probably comes down to a clash of skills.
>>340159964
This looks like a roleplayer's dream.
>>340174413
Too bad the lore isn't very impressive.
The only MMO I play now is Old School Runescape, it has a lot of what you mentioned OP (I haven't read the thread, someone has probably mentioned it already)
And if you're wondering: Old School Runescape is an OFFICIAL Jagex server and has free-to-play worlds now. The community is pretty good, it's mostly 20+ year old guys (such as myself) who used to play the game back then. Also the game is just slightly updated to be more playable today, and has a fullscreen mode.
>>340174283
>StarWars Galaxies
>Runescape
>Second Life
>Ragnarok Online, to the extent of min/maxing
>Rust, Arc, 7dtd and all other "zombie" sandboxes
Do you just consult yourself for these claims, or what?
>>340174354
Yeah I like the idea behind it, A city will either fall to crime or be a haven for weak players depending on how good the player guards are.
Here's hoping it is good in the end anon.
>>340174474
Even without the lore it looks like the kind of game that would be fun to immerse yourself in and get into character. Have they said anything about roleplay?
>>340174594
Who gives a shit about those games, at the end of the day sandbox MMOs don't survive in today's market because the audience is small as fuck compared to Themeparks.
>>340174656
Quite a lot of it is RPcentric, any specific areas you wanna know about my dude?
>>340174764
>They don't sell NOW
>Please ignore current games
>>340174656
They support it but offer nothing specific to roleplayers. A lot of people will deifnitely RP though.
>>340174474
Dev's already said they only plan to have some generic backstory, and an overarching theme, but ultimately each server tells its own tale, a la Eve Online
>>340174639
Or you can employ mercenaries, or call in the king's army. And if you somehow kill the culprit beyond the tolerable timeframe, you can completely mob the fuck out of the crime scene
>strip clothes/armor/gear
>bury body
>move body away
>pay off cartographer to hide area of incident on maps
>>340174838
>>340175257
I'm just wondering if they'll have roleplaying servers like some MMOs do.
>>340175468
I do hope so, i backed the game and don't really want to have to speak in ye olde english when im getting trade contracts with other players
>>340175060
All of those games are dead, dying, or switched to a F2P/Freemium model. Sandbox MMOs aren't viable anymore and there's clearly no mass interest for them outside of a niche group of vocal people on the internet.
>>340175468
It really depends on the people you surround yourself with. They confirmed there will be OOC and IC chat, OOC will have a big range and use your username eg "gamedude34"
and the IC one will be close ranged and use your character's name.
>>340175687
I don't think anybody speaks in ye olde english when roleplaying, most roleplayers in MMOs just don't use abbreviations when they're trading, you can hardly tell if they're roleplaying or not.
What exactly are people looking for in a Sandbox MMO?
>>340175468
>>340175687
There won't be RP-specific servers because they want massive servers with gigantic maps. You could probably get a RP city/village though.
>>340175941
I just wanna gank nerds.
>>340175941
Killing noobs and looting their stuff.
>mfw I played vidya with the Greed Monger lead dev/programmer
>>340159880
MMO games were a fad from the past decade, they went off by 2010. These past 6 years have been about artsy walking simulators, Dota, Dota Clones, and Dota accessories.
>>340175941
sandbox mmos bring in the people who just fuck around building things, or people who just fuck around destroying things, or roleplayers who pretend that their ebin warriors
>>340175941
freedom to do what they see as fun. Such as cultivating crops, selling wares, travelling and exploring on their own dime and hour, etc
>>340176093
>>340176159
Go play a PVP game
>>340176274
>>340176278
sounds like people want minecraft instead of a sandbox mmo
>>340159880
Basically what happened is WoW. MMOs used to be a completely niche genre full of people who mostly liked sandbox stuff.
Then WoW came out and attracted people who normally wouldn't have played MMOs, and other game companies wanted to hop on that sweet gravy train doing the same.
We will quite literally never see a good MMO ever again because of WoW, the closest you can get is where WoW hasn't affected developers, like Korea and such. And even then, good luck with that because the port to EU and NA is always going to be run by a shitty company who makes the game pay to win.
I think someone has already mentioned that original Darkfall got licensed to two competing groups of devs -- one is recreating original Darkfall pretty faithfully, the other is recreating and then modifying it to be more of a "sandbox" - adding in elements people may remember from UO or SWG.
Both projects look interesting.
Raph Koster had some really good essays you can find online, he later put them all in a book - but they describe what a "living online world" should have, one of the biggest things is "interconnectiveness". I probably butchered that word, but the concept is that everyone playing the game is linked in somehow based on what they can do and trade. Using SWG as a good example, everything in game is player-created, and a combat focused character would be purchasing items from a crafter, the crafter would be purchasing materials from someone else (possibly a ranger type), and everyone would need to see a doctor character at some point, or an entertainer character at some point. No one character could be 100% self-sufficient and everyone needed each other, which sounds forced on paper but in-game contributes greatly towards creating a community and a "living world".
I know that's a lot of jargon and buzzwords, but I think you fags know what i'm talking about.
>>340176481
a true sandbox would be a pvp game
>>340176481
essentially yes, but a far better looking, far better designed, and far larger multiplayer capacity than MC
Think more of Medieval Eve Online or a genuine Elder Scrolls MMO
>>340159964
Fuck, the game description sounds like a a recipe for disaster.
play a fucking MUD you retard. Literally the only place where this shit still exists
Sandbox MMOs are overrated, it all boils down to people being dicks to each other to get ahead and unhealthy circlejerks forming to get shit done.
Some sandbox'ish games in the future that you all may be interested in:
Crowfall
Albion Online
Das Tal
Shards Online
Linkrealms
Chronicles of Elyria
Gloria Victis
Life is Feudal
Darkfall: Rise of Agon
Darkfall: New Dawn (more "sand in box" than the other)
I'm sure i'm missing a ton, and some (or even all) of the ones I mentioned could turn out to be shit. But they are all ones I've been sort of watching as they develop.
>>340176838
>promise unbelievable ground shaking changes on almost every aspect
>work on all of them simultaneously
It's either going to be amazing, or an trainwreck
>>340176987
not all of us like looking at colored command prompt
>just imagine the building!
>>340177064
>it all boils down to people being dicks to each other to get ahead and unhealthy circlejerks forming to get shit done.
Are you talking modern mmo's or sandboxes?
MMO players today are too interested in inflating their gearscore rather than improving their technical skills. That's it in a nutshell.
>>340177170
http://sandboxer.org/
apparently Albion Online is having huge changes, and will be releasing their open beta in a few months, hopefully 4chan's /v/ and /vg/ can do the magic they did with TERA and Wurm Online back in the day for this one
>>340177196
>It's either going to be amazing, or an trainwreck
No my friend. No it will not.
Why? Because it's never been amazing before.
It didn't turn out amazing when EQ Next tried it, and it won't turn out amazing now.
I've seen bigger studios with more talent and a bigger budget fail to do what this studio's already promised.
The percentage chance of this turning out amazing is 0.
>>340162542
Needs a permadeath as well, let everyone start as peasants. Instead of classes a level cap which limits the skills you can pick up.
I played an old pvp mud where a guild was the police, it was fun but lacked an economy.
I see a lot of people complaining that sandbox pvp becomes a gankbox, and while some of that criticism is justifed, I think much of it comes from seeing "sandbox" and thinking back to being ganked in UO or the 18297912 different walking simulators with zombie russians.
In my opinion, FFA pvp can be done well in a sandbox only as long as actions have real consequences. As in: you can murder but if you're caught you go to jail (just an example).
It would all depend on the game to make something really work but it's entirely doable. Part of a "living world" should be that shitty things can happen. However, like you guys say, that shouldn't be the ONLY thing that happens and it definitely shouldn't be the most desirable action with 0 real penalties.
>>340176570
WoW just expanded on one of the MMO subgenres. It was much more divided into niche games.
>>340176987
There are none, only masturbation games.
>>340177594
>bigger studios with more talent and a bigger budget
you ousted the problem
Big studios aren't employed by wide eyed optimists who have a dream gamemode in store, they are number crunchers and quota keepers.Sure the initial idea is amazing and awe inspiring, (see Spore), then, a soulless company that has no interest in how complex or intricate a system is, only that it SEEMS like it is and reaches quota
this isn't shilling for CoE, i'm sure they're going to realize soon enough that not everyone in the gaming community has the patience SC fans have, but, they at least had the decency to burn their own pockets, make something presentable, then ask for more money to continue,a la movie pitch style
>>340177594
>It didn't turn out amazing when EQ Next tried it
EQ Next didn't try it, because EQ Next never even existed to try it.
Anyone play Haven&Hearth? I know /vg/ had some threads about it when they launched the newer game but then abandoned it when they found out the pricing scheme. It's been updated pretty consistently for months now and while it's still not technically free, it's far more of a fair price.
Fits a lot of the sandbox criteria. Too bad the combat is fucking weird as fuck, but then again it's not a very combat focused game overall. Comfy as fuck but i get lonely. I have russian neighbors but luckily they're all friendly and we trade and fish together while calling each other faggots.
>>340177594
>I've seen bigger studios with more talent and a bigger budget
Big Studios don't want to make good games, they want to make games that sell and that they know won't fail. Unfortunately making a good game doesn't mean it will sell anymore, and you can definitely sell shit even if it's not a good game.
>>340177487
That's a great site, thanks man.
I've been looking forward to Albion but worry it will devolve into blob vs blob zerg wars and that it will be counter-productive to leave safe areas without a party of 20 at all times.
But i'd definitely fuck around in the open beta with you horrible faglords and even pay for it if it turned out great. Some of you are fucking terrible people but i've had good experiences playing with you nerds in swgemu.
>>340177751
>FFA pvp can be done well in a sandbox only as long as actions have real consequences.
When that is the case people say it's a theme park instead of a sandbox.
Any sandbox mmo that I could play RIGHT NOW? If anyone remembers haven and hearth, I would fucking love to play something similar to that, just building my own house, town or whatever.
>>340178139
Not sure about Haven & Hearth, but Salem conveys exactly everything that is bad in a gankbox game.
>>340178570
https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/3aummi/salem_the_worst_mmo_experience_ever/
>>340178416
Tera, under Bignasty's rule, gave us about 1100 people, and we rumproasted everyone
Wurm Online wasn't as big, but some 300 odd /v/ faggots managed to make the dev's shut off new account creation for what, 2 weeks or 3?
i'm sure once open beta comes out, something will form, since it has the 3 requisites /v/ so eagerly loves
>free
>mass guild system
>ganking/stealing loot
>People call a game a 'sandbox'
>There's no building your own content
>It's actually open world
>>340160953
Until everybody gets fed up with their shenanigans. See Goons from EVE.
>>340178734
>unironically posting reddit here
Hallo reddit.
Is Gloria Victis any good?
>>340162274
>>340163332
Found bullshit.
>>340179260
>i-it's bullshit guys! It just is!
>>340178904
Why do people call Black Desert a sandbox?
>>340178904
this this this
my faggot friends are playing BDO and won't stfu about "what a sandbox" it is. They will get to max and find out they dont have the no-life to stay competitive and quit but in the meantime I have to listen to them.
Being able to decorate an instanced house doesn't mean sandbox. Even ArcheAge (which if anything, qualifies as "sandpark") has more freedom to do shit than BDO.
BDO has lots to do and an open world but shit isn't player created.
>>340162542
>EVE is one of the few examples where the players can really decide things, but it's still not enough.
It is enough. EVE's a fantastic game hindered by its leveling system. Nobody even knows enough about it to criticize it.
>>340178904
i genuinely hate games that promote themselves as sandbox, but all the buildings are instanced off
That being said, i was originally super hyped for running my own town, but seeing the tech demo kinda made me a bit iffy on how willing i am going to need to be to monitor my entire settlement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOKdf5lp2IQ
>>340159880
They were replaced by survival games like Rust and shit.
>>340179498
Archeage at least was honest enough to call itself a "sandpark", and it definitely had a lot more sandbox elements than BDO.
>>340179358
If the best argument for being able to buy anything in a game with real money, especially that's locked behind years of training without, maybe there should be some re-evaluation.
>>340179463
because sandbox is a buzzword and they are stupid.
>>340179638
If that's*
>>340179628
Yep, it had so much potential. I'm still upset about how Archeage turned out.
>>340179920
When are private servers happening?
>>340176212
Did you see all the RPGCodex drama about it?
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/greed-monger-insider-thread-drama-inside.98177/
>>340159880
Because its a niche audience and you can't get the same money you can get from milking basement dwellers who will spend $500 on F2P or a WoWclone
>>340159964
>Character dies of old age.
So, you have to re-level your character again and again? If i wanna do that shit, i would play other games.
>>340180108
I didn't know they were a possible thing but that would be pretty neat. No idea, sorry.
I'd be interested to see what a private server would change to fix shit - even without gamble boxes and rampant punishing rng for crafting end game items, shit like house plot hacking would still be an issue. Then again I'm an idiot so who knows.
>>340176645
>>Raph Koster had some really good essays you can find online,
Yeah, too bad he was too lazy and incompetent to actually lead SWG development properly, most of his articles amount to "so I had this good idea and then these guys didn't do it right and I just stood there lol"
Modern gamers can't handle anything without massive amounts of handholding
>>340177594
Im still fucking salty because EQ next never happens.
>>340180316
woah woah woah, you expect me to read all that?!
Summarize that into 1 word!
>>340180461
it takes 8-10 months to die, and your offspring are NPC's until you take control of them via rebirth, so you can train your kid to be even better than you, which will more than often be the case
>>340180487
haha, that could be a good argument, you're right. Still very informative, in my opinion, and another older book of his is really good, "The Theory of Fun", about game design in general. Also short and cheap.
He's an advisor or something on crowfall tho i forget what he's actually doing, if anything.
SWG was so good even with all of its issues and he really did have great ideas but dropped the ball on so many of them.
>>340180430
WoW clones aren't successful.
>>340159880
>What happened to Sandbox MMOs
They died because they aren't profitable in the long term compared to Themeparks.
>>340180461
There are no levels, senpai. And you get better skill ramps depending on what you had in previous lives.
>>340180724
FFXIV after it was rebooted is a WoWclone and now it's the 2nd most subscribed MMO in the world behind WoW.
>>340180819
There's actually no evidence for this. No sandbox games are produced.
If you count server survival games as sandbox, they're almost exclusively what's being sold.
>>340162489
this
there was no "sandbox era" of MMO, it's all made up crap.
>>340177170
>Linkrealms
This came out as EA or whatever recently and apparently it's massively P2W.
>>340180574
I think that's a good point on the majority of modern gamers but there are SO many faggots with wildly different tastes - a niche audience sandbox mmo "should" be able to find traction if it's not shit.
(not shit being the key, of course).
I think the age of rolling the dice and millions of dollars on a 10 mil sub WoW type game is over and that studios will come back to smaller mmo markets. Or maybe not since throwaway mobas and card games/mobile shit is 10x cheaper and makes a lot of money.
>>340180923
Do they actually announce sub numbers?
>>340180923
That's because Squaresoft/SE still commands a retarded amount of brand loyalty, no matter how much people don't want to admit it.
>>340180934
>Minecraft
>>340180934
>No sandbox games are produced.
Yeah, and communism has never been tried before.
>>340180430
I really liked FFXI and Everquest, they weren't full sandbox games but they also predate the WoW themepark. They had structured progression but also a lot of player freedom.
>>340178417
>When that is the case people say it's a theme park instead of a sandbox.
Absolute bullshit. Theme park is something completely different.
>>340159880
>Hey /v/, what happened to sandbox MMOs?
WoW's popularity convinced developers to stop making them AND change all existing sandbox MMO's to themeparks.
RIP Star Wars Galaxies.
>>340181030
>10 mil sub
This is such a meme. Most WoW subs are Chinese cafe players who don't buy expansions and play per logged in minute at $2.50 per 1300.
>>340180937
What?
Ultima Online. SWG to a lesser degree (pre nge).
>>340180934
If sandbox MMOs were profitable, SWG and plenty of other sandboxes would still have retail servers up and alive.
>>340159880
I don't really see the appeal. I pay you you make me some content I kill the content the end.
This shit seems like a scam. I pay you you drop me in a world and tell me to make my own fun. Ok, no thanks.
>>340181056
>>340181097
Minecraft is a fair point, but if we're talking about sandbox MMOs being produced that have even a chance at being mainstream, there really aren't any. I haven't played BDO, but I hear it's Korean bullshit.
>>340181006
Gay. That's too bad. Oh well, if anything their videos just made me want to find a good UO shard anyhow.
>>340181031
Only to investors
>>340181054
Still doesn't change the insane amount of money it prints
>>340181202
Based on what? Didn't they fuck up their sandbox elements, and that's why they shut down?
It doesn't help that they had huge expectations because of it being a SW game.. and all of this before gaming was even that popular.
>>340179607
>They were replaced by survival games like Rust and shit.
Yeah, I said that in the OP, I think somehow a lot of it got converted to those games, but those games are never actually MMOs, they have tiny little servers, and they're always permanently in EA (despite some being P2W).
Which is just a huge pile of shit overall, despite having elements that would be awesome in an actual MMORPG.
>>340181426
>before gaming was even that popular
Are you implying that gaming wasn't mainstream already before SWG came out? Shits a billion dollar industry.
>>340181202
I would sell my entire family into slavery for a new SWG. Luckily for them EA owns the star wars vidya rights so that means no updated SWG until like 2026 or something.
>>340181284
Seriously, anon.
http://sandboxer.org/sandbox-list/
>>340180674
>woah woah woah, you expect me to read all that?!
Yeah, it's hilarious, the dude appears to state his case at some point.
tl;dr regular internet "scamming" drama
>>340165354
Would be good but everything about the design is ass. I can't stand all the shitty sign post armor and you basically have to make a dumb looking base to proof it against raids.
I've been playing a little UO inspired game by the name LinkRealms.
The game's being made by 2 guys and they're pushing new content and fixes as fast as such a small team can. The way the game is right now it's very playable and fun. If you ever played UO you'll feel at home, if not, then it's fine too since it's just different enough to stand for itself.
>>340181426
No, it had lots of issues for sure but was still fucking amazing. I could write a book on the imbalances and problems but the main thing it had was freedom and community.
They were losing subs when WoW got big and lucasfilm forced them to make the game more like WoW. Some of the changes were neat, most weren't, but either way it was more of a themepark style progression with some leftover sandbox style elements at that point.
SWG kept going until - i want to say 2009 or something.
Recommend me a Sandbox MMO to play right now that's still getting content and the servers aren't ghost towns.
Hard mode: No Runescape
Poopsocking mode: Has to be made after 2011
>>340178570
haven is superior to salem in every possible way
>>340181312
I've been playing it ever since the EA and there's literally no P2W at all. The most P2W object there are, are the repair items a little bit more efficiently. Which is not a big deal because they cost next to nothing and you can just use the less effective ones without much of a difference.
>>340181893
Haven&Hearth
It's slow, not combat heavy, sort of weird to learn, but really fucking comfy until a russian punches through your wall 7 months later and murders you.
But that's 7 months of comfy and you'd probably quit by then.
>>340181893
None. MMOs are dead.
>>340180708
Yeah, he used to have great articles about game design etc. - his SWG post mortem blogposts are pretty good even, but there's always that "wait why didn't this work out? oh we noticed a massive bug and no one cared for 2 years lol sorry" moment, it's especially hilarious and painful to read it as someone who was telling them to fix that shit for 2 years on the SWG forums...
>>340181031
IIRC, that one Lodestone census they did back in March or April showed they had 650k active players above level 20.
>>340181601
The only sandbox game on that list is Second Life.
>>340182073
I hadn't kept up on it in a bit but I'll check it out because i'm itching for a UO type game. If I invest time into it and it's p2w i will place a horrible farting curse on you, anon.
