RPGs were never about combat. We had fun combat in games like DMC or Bayonetta and we had our role playing experience in RPGs. Then come along soulsfag who shitpost any RPG to oblivion for not having souls combat even though their game isn't even an RPG to begin with.
Face it, since the dawn of the fucking genre CRPGs where never about combat. Their combat relied on stats and tactics and required 0 (zero) manual skill. Some games took an approach that made combat even less relevant, making it a fun diversion and nothing more. Name one fucking good RPG that had good combat? There are none, because they don't need it. Good combat is for arcade, sandbox and competetive games where I don't care if thinks look and feel gamey. Immersion is key for RPGs and souls game have 0 fucking immersion.
>RPGs were never about combat.
So they should all be cinematic experiences like Undertale, where the narrative and story are all that matters? Why call it a video game then? Might as well be a movie.
>We had fun combat in games like DMC or Bayonetta
Stopped reading there. Button mashing is hardly my idea of "fun combat". Not to mention the whole deal about Bayonetta already being a bloody movie with little gameplay here and there.
>>340073731
Nobody wants to take your souls games. Play them all you want and encourage devs to make more. Just stop shitting on every single RPG just because they are not arcade action games like souls.
>>340073987
I'm not a big souls fan, so i don't mind if a game doesn't play like it. The problem comes from the game not caring about combat at all, which is what you want, based on your opening post.
>RPGs were never about combat
Right from the OP.
>>340074461
Was Fallout about combat? Was Baldur's Gate? Was Icewind Dale? Was Planescape Torment?
>>340073417
Then why did RPGs exist during the era of no story in games? Or really basic stories like "The Princess has been kidnapped! Save her and defeat the Demon King!" You could say exploration, but if that was it, they could have just made them Zelda clones.
>>340074732
But that's blatantly false. Look at >>340074727
Besides Icewind Dale all of those games had great stories
>>340074727
All of those games had major issues and relied too much on story. Not a single one offered a sufficient challenge and was based on MUH CINEMATIC NARRATIVE.
>>340074947
And all those games (except Icewind Dale maybe) are hailed as the greatest CRPGs ever made.
>>340073417
>and we had our role playing experience in RPGs.
Name 3 RPGs that are good in your opinion.
>Immersion is key for RPGs and souls game have 0 fucking immersion.
You've never actually played Demons Souls have you?
>>340074942
>Pointing to Fallout, a game from the 90s that was meant to be immersive
Kid, I'm talking about games from the fucking 70s and 80s, back before they had entire games about having conversations. There were NPCs, but none of them really had much to say in Dragon Quest I or Wizardry or what have you.
>>340073417
>RPGs were never about combat.
Yeah and that was a problem, when I was younger all I wished for was a RPG with semi-decent combat, and that simply didnt exist
Probably why I liked TW2 so much
>>340075046
>game jouralists like it, that means it's good
wew lad.
>>340075259
TW2 is a prime example of a game moving past stats and tactics into pure and mindless fun that requires no skill and serves as a break from the story. It has nowhere near challenging combat and that's perfectly ok because it's a great RPG because of it.
>>340073417
>RPGs were never about combat
>Then come along soulsfag who shitpost any RPG to oblivion for not having souls combat
While not every game needs Souls combat to be good, having interesting combat mechanics or just fun combat in general helps to keep things interesting. I've played a lot of RPGs; Phantasy Star 1-4, TES games, FF7, EB and I've gotten really into some of the games and enjoyed the stories quite a bit but dropped so many of them because the combat was boring and tedious, making continuing the story more of a slog.
You know what recent RPG I finished to completion, multiple times even? Memetale. Was the story amazing? Not really, the characters were where the game shines and there were a lot of fun, cute, and sometimes touching or spooky moments, but I wouldn't have played the game three times if it weren't for the combat. Getting to fight Undyne the Undying, Sans, and Goatpussy McDonutsteel were the reasons why I felt the desire to keep playing, because their boss fights and the unique and interesting "bullet hell" combat mechanics were engaging and fun, rather than just mashing A and stacking buffs. I enjoyed Sans so much that I reloaded the game after defeating him just to fight him in full one more time. Compare that to other games where you mash A against copy+paste enemies or crouch and shoot arrows all day, games where the story may be amazing but the combat is just a dull slog between points of interest in the story. I personally need good, or at least interesting, combat to keep playing a game all the way through, because a great story alone won't make me want to fight another 25 mash-A encounters.
tl;dr - If you're gonna have combat don't make it boring.
>even though their game isn't even an RPG to begin with
>souls game have 0 fucking immersion.
I've had role playing immersion with cosplay builds and even just role playing with dumb wandering-knight builds. Learn to role play.
>>340076609
>Learn to role play.
Might as well play PnP then and not spend 60 dollars on a game.
>>340073417
>spam and flash
>fun combat
>>340076872
Rather that than spend 60 bucks on a game that has all the videogamey stuff taken out of it, like combat.
>>340076993
I have an idea anon, let's both save 60 dollars each and play pretend inside our heads instead.
>>340073417
Fuck off, retard.
>>340073731
Undertale had gameplay though. It shined in its boss battles. But it was undermined by the fact that Undertale was too afraid to be too difficult on the player and the game was too short to really explore the depth of what it had, but it had great gameplay mechanics.
>>340073417
>RPGs were never about combat.
yeah, that's why all rpgs excluding soulsborne are literally fucking ass. games with bad gameplay are bad games. fuck retards that like them. rpg is basically a genre for losers that use video games as escapism and have to roleplay about being wizards to feel better about life. there are also much better mediums for story. i play games to play games - not to sift through some shitty pixelated poorly written cartoon made for retarded manchildren.
rpg can suck my ass and so can you OP.
What are the crucial elements of RPGs then?
>implying RPGs isn't a literal meme genre for physically disabled retards
All of you fags should fuck off.
>>340078409
having ample amounts of time to grind away your shitty life to hit a wizard power level so that you can finally select a potion from a menu to beat a boss
>>340073731
>implying rpgs should be linear and without choices like movies
>>340077226
>>340075225
but wizardry combat was garbo, the game is about dungeon crawling
>>340078507
>implying video games aren't just a meme hobby for shut-in faggots
>>340073987
>Nobody wants to take your games
you said it like this on purpose didn't you? Just to trigger fuckers like me and give you a (you)
>>340078961
youre a meme
>>340075225
>rpgs of the 70s
total trash
>rpgs of the 80s
total trash until Ultima came around and proposed more than shitty combat
>There were NPCs, but none of them really had much to say in Dragon Quest I or Wizardry or what have you.
Mostly because tabletop RPGs themselves were still in a sad state of shitty "door-monster-treasure" garbage.
>>340079630
>I hate gameplay
>>340073731
there is more to gameplay than just combat
for one easy example i thought of in less than a second: would you say puzzle-games are "cinematic experiences?"
of course you wouldn't.
>>340079691
>rolling dices long enough so you can buy potions to roll more dices is such fucking great gameplay you guize
Why not clone a game with good combat if combat doesn't matter? I don't understand why they go out of their way to make shitty combat simply because it's not the focus.
>>340079836
>pressing buttons long enough to get more experience so you can have bigger stats so you can press buttons even more is great gameplat
alternatively
>playing a PVP point and click adventure, but without the adventure, and barely any pointing
it's not hard to oversimplify a genre to make it sound repetitive and boring.
do you have an actual argument?
>>340080161
>pressing buttons long enough to get more experience so you can have bigger stats so you can press buttons even more is great gameplat
but that's exactly what I'm saying about combat focused RPGs being crap, the fuck are you talking about?
>playing a PVP point and click adventure, but without the adventure, and barely any pointing
I have no idea what you're trying to reference there.
>>340080750
action-adventure games, Dota-likes, and current action-RPGs
FPS/TPS
with how vapid your description of CRPGs was, i shouldn't have expected you to have figured it out. Sorry.
>>340081031
>FPS/TPS
lol, that's what you meant by "PVP point and click adventure, but without the adventure"?
that's the most inept description I've ever seen. Nobody can recognize the genre from it, that's how shitty your argument is.
My description of 70/80s combat-focused cRPG was entirely accurate. The fact that you think it was great gameplay just shows you're a shitty nerd with bad taste.
>>340075321
Not even by games journalists. Ask anyone who is seasoned in CRPGs, they will consistently cite those games as one of the best experiences they had in one.
>>340074947
>CINEMATIC
>brancing dialogue is "cinematic" now
don't use words you don't understand pls
in fact don't use words at all and keep your mouth shut, that'll do us a favor
>>340081313
>70/80s combat focused cRPG
you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
"point-and-click-adventure" is a common pejorative for single-player FPS games. anyone with a brain would have figured out what affixing "PVP" to the front of that would mean.that means you don't have a brain btw
Immersion is for shitters that don't like the life they have, but are too lazy/untalented/stupid to improve their situation.
>>340081923
>"point-and-click-adventure" is a common pejorative for single-player FPS games. anyone with a brain would have figured out what affixing "PVP" to the front of that would mean.
but it doesn't work for multiplayer you dumb slut, you can't just put PVP in front of it
there are plenty of other elements to a multiplayer FPS like movement, timing, quickness, timers management and so on
the games you are talking about, a.k.a. "RPGs for dumb D&D nerds" required no skill at all, literally anybody could play them, assuming they weren't turned off by how crappy they were
>>340082453
oh congratulations! you figured out that over-simplifying game mechanics doesn't accurately describe how a game is to be played!just as i said in my first reply to you
>games you are talking about, a.k.a. "RPGs for dumb D&D nerds"
???
I haven't said anything about these, kiddo. besides pointing out that you thought they existed in the 70/80s LOL
You know I can't help but wonder what the elder scrolls would be considered as.
Bethesda raped fallout by turning it into a first person shooter.
But Elder scrolls was always in first person perspective with combat and shit.
>>340083226
>over-simplifying
I'm not over simplifying anything laddy, you can't always fall back on that shitty excuse.
>I haven't said anything about these
you're replying to this post originally >>340079630
Maybe you already forgot, in which case fuck off
>>340083556
that wasn't me
>>340083712
I don't give a fuck my sweet child, you reply to the chain
>>340073417
>WoW community discussing legacy servers.png
Fucking nailed it
>>340083998
This is my chain now, chump.
>>340084236
so all you wanted to do was repeat the shitty "HUUUURRRRR YOU CAN OVERSIMPLIFY EVERYTHING" meme like a typical /v/ parrot?
Because you're wrong. You can't accurately oversimplify any game. However you can do it for games that are simplistic to begin with, like combat focused early RPGs.
>>340073417
Literally wrong. Everything about modern RPG resolves around giving context to combat. So the combat has to be good for the entire game to be good.
Which mean The Witcher 3 isn't a good game. Deal with it fucktard.
>>340084549
>Everything about modern RPG resolves around giving context to combat
do you believe the shit you write
>>340074727
>glorified visual novels
>this is a good thing
An actual good game would tells you to avoid combat because it's not always the best solution, not because the combat system is crap and you shouldn't use it at all.
>>340084714
Dumb frogposter as dumb as expected.
>>340084875
>Another poster displaying they don't like classic RPGs
Literally proving OP's point.
>>340085034
Good classic RPG with good combat exist.
>>340073417
>feel gamey
He actually said it
>>340085098
then it's fucking time to post them
>>340073731
Should a role playing game, a game where you play the role of the main character, which implies much more than just controlling them, focus on story elements and how your choices affect the world around you?
Obviously, you fucking dipshit. Combat is nice, but the main draw of role playing games is the role playing. The worst thing to happen to the genre is the aspect of stats being advertised as "role playing elements" in mainstream AAA games instead of the actual role playing.
>>340074727
Fallout and PT had some way to complete quest without fighting while in BG and IWD you'll spend most of your time killing shit
>it needs combat to be a game
>make game with shooty
GENERIC COD REHASH DO SOMETHING ORIGINAL
>create a game without combat
WALKING SIIIIIIIIM
>>340085663
yeah this
it's really a shame that the simulationist elements of RPGs came to be understood as "RPG elements" when in fact they are so peripheral
>>340073417
You're going to spend a lot of your time in battles in an RPG. If the combat isn't fun, interesting, engaging, etc. in some way, then why play the game?
>combat in rpgs aren't important
Stop making me fight shit every two steps then
>>340085663
>a role playing game, a game where you play the role of the main character
This is not what makes a role-playing game.
Your definition makes Halo a role-playing game because you play the role of Master Chief.
>>340086016
>pillars of eternity.jpeg
The simple fact of the matter is that when I play a game like Oblivion or Fallout 1, when I get to the combat, I'm not having fun.
And it's not like the rest of the game is good enough to make up for it, too.
>>340086075
>because you play the role
you don't
it would be a RPG if you actually did that, but you don't
you just watch it happen
>>340073417
Funny how you are doing exactly pic related
>>340086104
Don't remind me
>>340086075
>which implies much more than just controlling them
Read the whole post before you make an ass of yourself.
>>340073417
>actually letting /v tell you what to get
Are you fucking retarded or something?
>>340085769
>first person shooters are the only form of combat
>>340073417
>Then come along soulsfag who shitpost any RPG to oblivion for not having souls combat even though their game isn't even an RPG to begin with.
Really nigger? Based on fucking what? Shitposting? I swear you're making this shit up nigger, or picking from a tiny minority, not a majority body.
And no, most people realize it's an Action-RPG, meaning there's a higher focus on the action.
Hell, the game is officially marketed as an Action-RPG.
It's not that the games don't have several RPG mechanics to define it as such or anything either, right?
>Immersion is key for RPGs and souls game have 0 fucking immersion.
What do you consider immersion?
Disagree with the notion that Souls doesn't immerse you into it's game world, and considering all the lore fags running amok and just people generally appreciate the indirect storytelling, I can safely say that you're wrong.
>Good combat is for arcade, sandbox and competetive games where I don't care if thinks look and feel gamey.
lol wauv, enjoy your gimped mechanics.
Considering your thread image though, I should probably just consider you a deliberate poster-of-feces.
Thank you for wasting my time.
>>340085663
This.
What we currently know as "Role Playing Games" should be split into two genres: Stat Based Games, and Role Playing Games.
Stat Based Games is self explanatory. They're games in which the combat relies on stats, such as Attack, Defense, Speed, etc. You are given some form of control over these stats, like adding one point to a state every time you level up. Basically, what is currently viewed as an RPG.
Role Playing Games, on the other hand, are games which focus on you taking the role of the main character. Your actions directly influence the world and characters around you. Multiple endings will be common in this type of game, though not mandatory. Role Playing Games can also have any kind of combat, meaning that they don't also have to be a Stat Based Game.
With these distinctions, Final Fantasy, Disgaea, Pokemon, and Dark Souls would be considered Stat Based Games, whereas Fallout 1 & 2, The Witcher 3, and Visual Novels would be considered Role Playing Games. The sad part is that I struggled to think of games within recent memory that would be considered RPGs under this definition because, as was said, all "Role Playing Games" means now is that you have stats.
>>340088516
But that's fucking retarded. What makes Fallout 1 & 2 less "Stat Based Games" and more Role Playing Game in comparison to either of the four examples you mentioned.
Your definition seems absolutely arbitrary, no system to it whatsoever, you're just aggressively trying to redefine the genres (despite being well-established in sub-catagories) for no reason other than your incessant autism demands it be so.
I laugh at you for labelling Visual Novels as fucking RPGs. Pitiful, is what it is.
If lines of dialogue and canned choices are all it takes to make an RPG, then fucking kill me now.
>>340088492
>lol wauv, enjoy your gimped mechanics
Aaaand you just invalidated your entire post. You proved his point of "Then come along soulsfag who shitpost any RPG to oblivion for not having souls combat", because you're saying that anything that doesn't play like Dark Souls has gimped mechanics.
Way to go, champ.
>>340089494
No you fucking retard, saying:
>Good combat is for arcade, sandbox and competetive games where I don't care if thinks look and feel gamey.
Is a COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY UNNECESSARY FUCKING LIMITATION.
I'm not saying it has to play like Dark Souls, but saying that "Good combat are for those gamey games" makes you sound like the pretentious twat you are.
Good job twisting my words, you're a real hero.
Here's your (You).
I swear, you "IT NOT RPG!!!!" fags are the most obnoxious minority on this board.
I don't pity you, for the day of the rope comes soon.
>>340089450
>What makes Fallout 1 & 2 less "Stat Based Games" and more Role Playing Game in comparison to either of the four examples you mentioned.
are you fucking kidding me?
Branching dialogues, various outcomes for quests and a number of flag states for the world affecting subsequent events.
>Your definition seems absolutely arbitrary
It's not, what he's saying is widely accepted and commonly considered the cultural barrier between western and easter RPGs.
>>340089450
I never said that a game can't be both a Stat Based Game and a Role Playing Game. I'm just sick of games coming out, claiming to be RPGs, and all that means is that you have stats.
And yes, a visual novel would be considered a Role Playing Game. Regardless of how bare bones they are, they still fit the description. Dialogue choices make up a large part of role playing. Role playing came from tabletop games like RPGs, where your choices have an affect on NPCs who are controlled by another human, so the choices and outcomes are endless. It's hard to emulate that in a video game. Every game that is a Role Playing Game by my definition really does just give you canned dialogue options, but it just becomes more obvious in Visual Novels that that's all they are because there's nothing else to do or look at.
>>340090180
>Role playing came from tabletop games like RPGs
Like D&D*
>>340089867
Again, you're implying that arcade games, sandbox games, and competitive games automatically have bad combat just because they're not as deep as Dark Souls, which proves his point yet again.
>>340090168
>Branching dialogues, various outcomes for quests and a number of flag states for the world affecting subsequent events.That sounds like Souls to me.
>>340089450
It's a better definition. Stats are ruining gameplay of RPGs by being unnecessarily added everywhere. You have games where leveling ruins balance like TW3 especially at release. Games where it just servers to lock you out of abilities. A million games adding retard +5% to every ability that you must get to be competitive. Unnecessary grind is also present.
Most of cool things people want from RPG are character interactions, dialogue, some kind of free world partially or full, customization (preferably without shitloads of grind), and something to do out of combat. They aren't really telling people to go put stats everywhere even where they don't fit.
>>340090661
Tripping a flag to open up a new optional hallway is not the same as tripping a flag that changes how certain characters treat you for the rest of the game.
>>340090661
there's very little of those in Souls games
I don't know if you're being facetious or not but I know there's a bunch of weeb who try to argue there's not difference between dragon quest and baldur's gate
>>340073417
You're thinking of WRPGs/CRPGs - those have heavy influence from D&D, and have a huge focus on dialogue, characters, dice rolling, etc.
JRPGs are different. They've always been about combat and bossfights
>RPGs were never about combat
>>340090950
wizardry was about exploration tbhfam, combat is pretty crap
>>340090932
d&d always had a huge emphasis on combat, i don't know what the fuck you're talking about
>>340090567
>Again, you're implying that arcade games, sandbox games, and competitive games automatically have bad combat just because they're not as deep as Dark Souls, which proves his point yet again.
NO. I'M FUCKING NOT.
HE. HE IS THE ONE THAT SAID:
>Good combat is for arcade, sandbox and competetive games where I don't care if thinks look and feel gamey.
While I'm saying it's retarded to say that good combat can't have any presence in an RPG because of such a meaningless limitation as "it feels too "gamey"".
I implied NO SUCH THING, that those other games
>arcade, sandbox and competetive games
Have bad combat because Souls exists and nothing can be compared to it.
CAN. YOU. FUCKING. READ? - Because I sure doubt your abilities in that department.
>>340091051
But it's still mostly about playing the role of your character. Even the way you create your character can completely change your campaign. If you make an Elf for a campaign that takes place in a country that's known for absolutely hating Elves, then guess what; you're either going to be shunned or straight up fucking murdered.
>>340090932
>>340091051
you're both wrong you cockmongrels
there isn't a single thing that you could call D&D. There was no "first edition" or a "basic D&D" that would have come out before AD&D
Early roleplaying was very multifaceted and different from table to table.
FUcking combatfags I fucking hate you. Gameplay is exploring, gameplay is dialogue, gameplay is immersion, gameplay is puzzles, gameplay is planning your build, gameplay is story ETCETCETC.
Go play your button mashing fighting games if you want combat. Combat is an insignificant obstacle in a good rpg.
>>340090839
>is not the same as tripping a flag that changes how certain characters treat you for the rest of the game.Still sounds like Souls to me
>I don't know if you're being facetiousMaybe.
>>340073417
D2X had fantastic combat. Not surprisingly it remains one of the greatest ARPGs/hack-and-slash games ever created with tons of imitators... Kinda' like Dark Souls.
People like that, anon:
>Fun combat that's easy for anybody to get in to, but retains some depth.
>Can succeed with skill over stats fairly frequently.
>Can take your campaign proven build into PvP.
>Fun to play with friends.
I'm waiting for someone to finally go full DMC ARPG.
>>340091537
>D2X
?
>>340091423
Why can't it have all of those things AND good combat though?
I also wanna add that AT LEAST half the things you mentioned also exist in plenty of Action-RPGs.
"immersion" also isn't fucking gameplay, you nutter. It's literally your state of mind as you play the game.
You clowns all sound so pretentious it hurts.
>>340091806
Diablo 2: Lord of Destruction.
>>340091423
>video games
>good dialogue
>good story
>freedom
I lol'd
RPGs in general are shit.
It's all a numbers game. Want to beat this boss? Welp, your numbers aren't high enough. It doesn't matter if you think you've got good enough reaction times or become strategically better at the game, you have to grind pretty boy.
Not baiting, but how can anyone enjoy this?
>inb4 muh story and characters
Look, those are nice, but I prefer good gameplay that rewards you for getting better at the game, anons.
>>340091423
>>340091228
I'm sorry. Maybe I am retarded.
>>340093123
Okay I could see what that anon means, but now I wonder why anyone would like "Stat based games".
Does anyone like them are are they just thrown in for padding purposes?
>>340093667
You might be anon, but I forgive you.
>>340073731
>cinematic experiences like Undertale
Nigga
>>340091423
Combat is the most important thing in a game. It's how a series like Monster Hunter that is only combat is better than every bethesda game put together.
>>340093892
Some people just enjoy min-maxing and exploiting stats and game mechanics.
>>340094263
>Combat is the most important thing in a game. Let me give you a bunch of example of games that focus on combat.
The combat was my favourite part of Tetris.
>>340094669
Tetris was boring as fuck.
>>340094724
in my opinion*
Someone respond to this: Why are RPGs not about combat when what you do in those games is literally 80% combat?
>>340094786
I assume it can be inferred that I'm speaking in my opinion. I didn't use any words like objectively or anything like that. In my opinion it shouldn't be required to preface every statement with in my opinion, that's just my opinion though.
>>340094927
Oh, sorry. I gave you too much credit. I assumed that you wouldn't be dumb enough to start your argument with a bold statement like "Combat is the most important thing in a game" only to back it up with an opinion.
Guess I assumed wrong.
>>340095315
I'm not stupid enough to think everyone plays games for the same reason. Some people literally think immersion is the most important thing, which is fucking laughable to me, but who am I to tell them how to enjoy their hobby.
>>340073417
>TW3 faggot got so butthurt over people calling the combat clunky he had to make a new thread to whine about it
It doesn't need souls combat, it just needs to not be awful.
>>340095482
The guy you started your argument with said that he enjoys the exploration and other parts of the game more than combat, but you jumped in and told him that combat was the most important thing in a game. I'd assume that you started your argument with that because you wanted him to see it the way you do, which would contradict your statement here since that would mean you do actually care how other people enjoy games.
Nice backpedaling, though. The moment you're called out, you just say "Pfft, like I care. I'm such a pacifist". Classic.
>>340096019
Oh don't get me wrong I definite think I'm right, I just don't think there can be any real objective discussion about the whole thing. The retard just capslocked and whined a bunch so I let him know that he's dumb and combat is king.
But at the same time there's no "court of correct" I can't actually sit down and scratch out a formula proving I'm right, I just think that I am. I can look down on someone for having a shitty opinion but still think they have the right to that shitty opinion.
>>340074727
Fallout had awsome combat. Screw you.
The DnD titles are all combat-heavy dungeon crawlers. Have you even played any of those?
>>340095482
>>340096430
>I'm not stupid enough to think everyone plays games for the same reason
>The retard just capslocked and whined a bunch so I let him know that he's dumb
Backpedaling again. You do one thing, but then say you do another. Except here you actually admit to doing the things you said you don't do in your previous post. It's so stupid it hurts. The way he said it is irrelevant. If you really didn't care how others play games, you wouldn't have replied.
>>340073417
>Name one fucking good RPG that had good combat?
Jagged FUCKING Alliance 2 you stupid cunt.
>>340096973
That's not true I don't know why you assume that the only reason to respond is to change someone's mind. I don't think I'll change his mind, but telling him I think he's wrong brings me a little bit of joy, and that's what life is really about. No one changes anyone's mind on the internet but telling them you're right and they're wrong is the next best thing.
Those sentences aren't contradictory. I know he plays games for reasons other than me and I know he will never change. I also think that my reasons are better and he's wrong and dumb for liking something like immersion more than combat.
Tetris still sucks by the way, all these posts later.
>>340073417
>RPGs were never about combat. They don't need it
They can be if it's the prime focus of the "role-playing". Whether its solely tactical-thinking or action reflex-based, the game not breaking the role you chose for your character and "skill level" it's at is what matters. Otherwise so much as manually moving more correctly than others is breaking your autistic little rules.
>>340073731
Undertale technically has actual gameplay. It's just easy and spread between story "as are many other JRPG's", and is centered around mini bullet-hells and much simpler life-stats.
And DMC is only a button-masher if you're either fighting only early-game fodder or are clinically retarded. Play the actual hard/DMD difficulties or Bloody Palace and see how far that gets you.
Dunno about Bayonetta though.
>the 'its not an RPG if everything isn't controlled by a billion different skills that get +1-2% [effect] added per level' meme
Where did this come from? Why do people cling to it so stubbornly? I really wish it'd just fuck off already, it's a cancer upon any discussion of a game that doesn't adhere to that needlessly narrow definition.
>>340073417
Certain RPGs, usually CRPGs like Fallout, weren't about combat, sure, but it seems disingenuous to just say that "RPGs", as a whole, were never about combat.
I'll admit I'm not too familiar with WPRGs but it doesn't really seem up for debate that the earliest RPGs like Wizardry, pre-IV Ultima, and their successors like Eye of the Beholder were definitely largely about combat and dungeon crawling. It seems like you sure spend an awful lot of time wandering caves and temples killing everything you find in games like Baldur's Gate too, even if there were more RP elements. So even if it wasn't the point of the game it was a significant part of the gameplay. And then of course there's Diablo and countless others like it.
>Their combat relied on stats and tactics and required 0 (zero) manual skill
This is true but when people criticise RPGs for having poor combat, they are not necessarily criticising them for not requiring manual dexterity but for not even being engaging on a tactical level.
Or they're criticising them for having action combat systems that are supposed to be partially based on manual dexterity that happen to be shit.
If you make a game with combat that's meant to be based on skill, and it's shit, you can't excuse it by just going HURR ITS NOT BASED ON SKILL, because clearly it was supposed to be.
In any case I really don't see what the point of comparing Souls/Bloodborne to traditional CRPG-like WRPGs is because although they may share some elements, they really are clearly completely different when you get down to it.
Dark Souls is nothing like Fallout 1 or Baldur's Gate or similar games and to criticise it for focusing on mechanical pleasure and not immersion makes as much sense as bitching about God of War being too combat-focused and not being immersive.
