Fixing MMOs?
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The holy trinity wasn't always what it is today. WoW ushered in a decade-long era of tank-heal-damage knock-off games, so we all apparently forgot the origin of the cooperative multiplayer formula.
It was tank-heal-CONTROL. Enchanters were the purist's control class in EQ, and their responsibility was to keep large encounters at a manageable level, because the hordes of enemies we plow through in today's mmos were nearly impossible to mitigate back then. Against boss encounters, a single mob lasted long enough to justify the use of a wide range of status effects without which the fight was nigh impossible, in addition to managing the inevitable adds.
EQ is my only frame of reference, but I understand this was the case in DAoC and to a lesser extent AC as well.
The holy trinity existed to give each player a responsibility and a unique application for their character's tools that supported what other characters were doing. It was about cooperation. Elevating the universal act of dealing damage (universal in rpgs with health bars anyway) to one-third of all player responsibilities is why it's so weird these days.
Beyond that, there is always the option to shatter the trinity completely. FFXI successfully generated strong communities almost solely because there were so many responsibilities to group combat (combating the horrendous interface, for one!). Practically every job WAS its own corner of the trinity. Rangers pulled, Thieves managed aggro, Ninjas traded off tanking hits with their shadows while Paladins healed and cleansed themselves, etc. It is a curious point of comparison to note that every responsibility just mentioned is handled entirely by a single role in FFXIV... The tank.
Which would you prefer, a return to the old trinity, or a multitude of diverse and specific jobs?
>Neither because MMOs are dead and shouldn't you be at work right now?
>>339835062
I would prefer people making sandbox mmos instead of theme park mmos
I like having a trinity at the core, supported by different classes.
Back in 2007's LOTRO you could fill a 24 person raid with only Burglars or Captains (support classes) and nuke a raid boss because of the buff/debuff stacking.
>>339835062
FFXI and EQ were kings.
Everything else is shallow and generic.
It's starting to invade single player RPGs also, and that shit is annoying.
>30 different classes
>primary class is selected at character creation and is permanent for that character
>secondary classes are earned via specific quests, every class can be unlocked as secondary
>no leveling system
>abilities and passives are unlocked via spending skill points in talent trees
>skill points are obtained by using power crystals (lack of a better term)
>power crystals are obtained from rare mobs
>rare mobs are just normal mobs that spawned with slightly higher stats and a colored aura (small chance of occurring based on mob's "level")
>power crystals are tradeable
>maximum of 100 skill points
>skill points and secondary class can be changed and redistributed for free at any inn
>can mix and match various classes together like Berserker/Pyromancer or Necromancer/Druid for example, or can choose to invest all 100 points into your primary tree and be a pure Berserker, Necromancer, etc.
>skill points in secondary tree can not exceed the amount of skill points in primary tree
>every class, no matter the configuration, will have 30-40 different abilities when all 100 skill points are spent
>every class has a different purpose in combat. some are damage dealers, some are healers, some are controllers, some are buffers/support, some are debuffers, some can perform multiple roles albeit not as well as a pure, etc.
>combat functions identically to WoW, but on a modern engine that's even smoother and less laggy
>every mob in the game is assigned a class and skill point distribution, only use abilities that players can use themselves
>PvE functions identically to PvP, just against mobs with scaling AI based on preset difficulty
r8 it
>>339835062
>old trinity
Why do you keep calling it thjat when you've pointed out that there were more than three roles? Look at your FF11 example, there's no 'keep the guys hitting me forever' role there, and that's good.
There does not need to be a dedicated tanking role, and you've proven it with your own words. The 'trinity' is shit and no good MMO ever had one.
>>339835062
>FFXI successfully generated strong communities almost solely because there were so many responsibilities to group combat
But all that meant was you had tons of classes that each performed ONE duty well, and it got boring as shit after a while.
For example, Bards were usually a great asset to the party (though more so after they got MP regen songs), but I was sick as shit of pressing the same few macros over and over again since that was my entire role in the group. You were expected to subclass White Mage, but your low healing meant it didn't do shit to save someone really hurt. The only time I've ever fallen asleep at my keyboard was playing FFXI.
The Trinity is outdated. Every class needs the ability to heal (even if it's just a self-heal), deal damage, and do mob control for it to be enjoyable these days.
>>339835062
For some reason I prefer GW2 system, everyone can do everything but a little bit differently and it feels more realistic, in the end, even if you're just mage would you actually go to actual combat without some means of healing or toughening up? Or if you were warrior wouldn't you pick tool or two to solve things that muscles cannot? I would say that GW2 is fine mix between Diablo and MMO, no macros, pick 10 skills, have dodge and some kind of ress on every class and play.
>>339838760
>sub whitemage healing sucks
You what? The skill that doubles healing and then highest curaga would save the shit out of partys(and normally rip hate and kill you, but meh).
Also, bards were best pullers, way better than thief's and rangers.
>>339837305
>30 different classes
>primary class is selected at character creation and is permanent for that character
Should make for great variety, but balance will as a matter of course be harder and balanced encounters easier to break. Permanent mains will hurt replayability and circulation through low level areas but should stratify class interdependence and lend an economic scarcity to player roles, so that's a wash. 6
>secondary classes are earned via specific quests, every class can be unlocked as secondary
Love discovering new schools of combat or magic as cohesive in-setting entities in the game world, 10.
>no leveling system
>abilities and passives are unlocked via spending skill points in talent trees
>skill points are obtained by using power crystals (lack of a better term)
>power crystals are obtained from rare mobs
>etc. etc. etc.
RNG spawns and spawn camping will really suck the life out of hunting the game world, and trees will again throw balance into disarray and open up larger power gaps between talent combos. I would suggest a hybrid where normal talents are obtained through points accrued from killing all things as usual (experience), but a set of iconic and characterful abilities are gated behind these special crystal-powered skill points, and these are stuck on world bosses and controlled encounters. 3
>skill points and secondary class can be changed and redistributed for free at any inn
>can mix and match various classes together like Berserker/Pyromancer or Necromancer/Druid for example, or can choose to invest all 100 points into your primary tree and be a pure Berserker, Necromancer, etc.
>skill points in secondary tree can not exceed the amount of skill points in primary tree
Sweet. 8
>to be cont'd
>>339837305
meta would be discovered in 1 week. them everyone would be sausagemage/tecnomancer or whatever best combo is for a specific role
Eh, the problem is the trinity and forced rolls really make MMOs boring.
MMORPGs at least should be about creating a character and adventuring with friends through a world of danger and mystery, but somehow we've ended up creating a very metagame driven loot grind with less adventure and more boss grinding
In reality an MMO should really have many many different facets of player niches, and not all of them should be combat, but because WOW became the gold standard and nerfed/removed/never had anything resembling player driven gameplay, every MMO since has suffered.
At the end of the day, the trinity was designed due to trying to "balance" the MMO, its an arbitrary, and bad system, to make up for the fact that MMOs come with shit AI and shit mechanics, which is why you need damage sponges and heal spammers.
I for one can't wait for MMOs to return to their RPG roots and give players better options and dynamic world design for many different niches, I just want to be a wizard who explores ruins for lost magic with some friends, not some guy in a dress spamming fireball.
>>339837305
>>339840921
>every class, no matter the configuration, will have 30-40 different abilities when all 100 skill points are spent
Completely valid to double down on hotbar dance combat if that's what you want. Beware the Rift problem where powerful and iconic abilities are gated behind heavy point investment, essentially axing hybrid build viability out of the gate. Attempting multiple styles and frequency of inputs with different classes should give you a lot of mileage out of this system, like some with short cooldown whack-a-mole WoW abilities, some with FFXIV combo strings to do in sequence, etc. 7
>every class has a different purpose in combat. some are damage dealers, some are healers, some are controllers, some are buffers/support, some are debuffers, some can perform multiple roles albeit not as well as a pure, etc.
Balance nightmare again, but seems a given at this point so no big d. Encounter design is almost more important to role viability than class design is. Mob health and behavior, aggro/ai mechanics, and mob abilities must all interact interestingly with buffs/debuffs/controls to justify these systems. I think the design of incredibly powerful yet short term status effects is a good one for a game with a PVE focus, rewarding coordination and timing. Damage output should rise by hundreds of percentile points when a mob's defense is opened up adequately. 7
>combat functions identically to WoW, but on a modern engine that's even smoother and less laggy
Sure. 9
>every mob in the game is assigned a class and skill point distribution, only use abilities that players can use themselves
Possibly over-complicated. 3
>coooooooonttttttt'd
Just stop playing mainstream shit, they're all wow clones, and it just encourages more to be made
>>339837305
>>339840921
>>339841982
>PvE functions identically to PvP, just against mobs with scaling AI based on preset difficulty
Preset difficulty means instanced content, further fracturing the open-world nature of the game. Not necessarily a negative but keep in mind. Complex AI in online games is rarely seen because most of the computation is traditionally done client-side. Reference and compare Vermintide's Rat AI with different host players to see this in action. I do think there is hope for a more complex aggro mechanic however, where different mobs react differently to each relative level of aggro they trigger on players. Assassins and snipers target players with LOW aggro, ranged mobs move away and attack high aggro targets while melee mobs move close, etc. Even just a little variation in behavior goes a long way. 6
>>339835062
>tank-heal-control
Hahaha, that was not the trinity in EQ. The trinity was:
Necromancer-Necromancer-Scrubs surrounding the necromancer
Fucking faggot, I bet you weren't even a skeleton.
>>339842378
What game?
I liked smiting in Guild Wars 1. I'd like every class to have supplemental heals on certain skill types, still need a healer, but be able to spec into being a primary healer. But even primary healers still need to attack to get their abilities to work, or similar.
Guild Wars 2 made the mistake of trying to remove healers entirely. Most other games make the mistake of trying to force people into incredibly tight roles, so healers only ever heal or buff, tanks are only allowed to resist damage and nothing else, and DPSs are the "real" class that just cycles through buttons.
>>339843012
Haven and hearth
>>339835062
mmorpgs are dead
>>339842861
>Necromancer-Skeleton-Skeleton
>Skeleton: Nerf Necromancer, Skeletons are fine.
I think you need to design the game from the ground up with the specific roles you have in mind, however many roles there are, then, for each role, have one specific class or character type that just plainly does that role best, don't try to have 2 100% tank classes, for example, if you do, just integrate all those options into one class. After that, you can start creating other classes with one unique gimmick that no one else can do or some sort of specific utility benefit (like being able to heal 75% as well as the main healing class and deal 75% of the physical damage of the main phys damage class)
Class-based MMO's specifically run into problems when they try to support the idea that two different classes can perform in the exact same way, which is flawed in its nature.
>>339837305
half of the shit you just said was GW1
>>339843341
But you are the skeleton
>>339843232
Thanks. It looks interesting.
Eh, I really think the class system has little to no place in MMOs, you can build your character based on equipment and tasks, and if you wanted to become more like a certain style, you should be able to.
At their roots MMOs are really just digitialized tabletop RPGs, and most tabletop RPGs are more open ended, even D&D you could learn spells on a warrior and pick locks as a paladin with feats.
Really though, more player driven content is needed, metagames be damned I just want to be that one asshole who learns necromancy and raises an army of the dead.
How about an ed edd and eddy MMO
>>339837251
FFXI was amazing. No other MMO has had that much class diversity. Everyone was responsible for DPS, everyone was responsible for enmity management. You weren't confined to your job role.
I miss it.
>>339835062
Control is just a fancy word for support, but you're basically on the right track.
>>339835062
The trinity exists because in combat two things will happen, someone does damage, and someone takes damage. If combat lasts long enough you need someone to Support (Through Heals, Buffs/Debuffs, Crowd Control). That's the trinity. Do Damage, Take Damage, Support.
Every group game based around combat has some version of the trinity. DOTA/LoL/HoS, Do Damage, Take Damage, Support. TF2/Overwatch/Other Shooters, Do Damage, Take Damage, Support.
How do you change it? Take out the "Damage Doers" and fights last forever. Take Out the Support, and fights are 2 short. So, Take out the Damage Takers. Do Damage and Support. You end up with MMO Diablo, a bunch of DPSers with Support Skills. I imagine fights would mostly be about exchanging cooldowns, and basically platforming puzzles of staying out of the danger zones, and crowd control abilities. Maybe interesting, but would it be that different from WoW? Not Really.
>>339844314
>If combat lasts long enough you need someone to Support (Through Heals, Buffs/Debuffs, Crowd Control).
ehh
imo there's still a distinction to be made between healer and a class that solely focuses on increasing damage dealt through buffs and debuffs. It's not directly damage dealing and it doesn't do anything to keep your party alive.
Its simple
Make every class responsible for mitigating their own damage and create AI and combat mechanics that aren't from 1999
What I want for PvE:
Instanced small group content with a large variety of builds and varied bosses. Toukiden: Kiwami fulfilled this perfectly.
What I want for PvP:
Best loot being crafted from materials that can only be farmed from monsters and gathering in a full loot ffa pvp zone. Seizable strongholds, towers and traderoutes that can all be raided.
Don't try and mix the too, it will end up being horrible.
>>339844723
But how do we do that?
They need to move away from boss grinding and return to dungeon and world exploring with friends.
>>339835062
I like you OP, you have decent points.
Personally, I loved EQ's rendition of the trinity and despise what WoW did to it.
I miss Enchanters so much. Or when Roots were actually useful. When crowd control meant more than using skills that wiped out an entire crowd.
>>339844314
ffxi had buff/debuffing jobs who were extremely good at doing them but not a whole lot else, so it had 4 major roles. problem came from easy mitigation thanks to subbing ninja for its utsusemi spells, so you rarely needed a designated tank; any dps with good gear could fill that role as long as they were /nin and kept up with casts or traded hate with others /nin
was an interesting timeframe, since all jobs could /nin and tank similarly, though some had better hate tools outside of damage than others
>>339844959
>But how do we do that?
Hunting genre solved that problem tbqhfam
>>339844959
Monster Hunter is a good example of a good multiplayer combat system for shit like dragon hunting, hell they even have a fucking weapon that makes you a fucking bard that is better then any other RPG's implementation of a bard.
I want an MMO where every class has its own unique role that does a unique thing, not "two classes tank, three heal, and the other four do damage"
It's getting fucking old and the main reason MMOs fail
>>339841589
It's funny that you posted that picture, because I think a fantasy MMO (swords, sorcery and maybe some low tech) would work so well with EVE's player-determined design philosophy behind it.
It would take some genius design, but imagine having a fun and engaging class like a Topographer, or a Caravaneer, along with the more traditional roles like thieves and knights. An MMO with its own kind of society--some players would choose to be bandits, and if you were managing a caravan, you might want to think about hiring knights or mercenaries to guard your shit, all of whom would be players.
So you hire your guards, who are players, after purchasing your travel goods from city merchants, who are players, and had your map updated with interesting shit along the way, by a player who went out and charted the land himself.
It's a pipe-dream that will never really happen, but it's fun to think about sometimes, and it's especially impressive that EVE managed to what it does so well, and for long.
>>339844553
There isn't though, not really. I played an RDM in FFXI, one of the purest support classes in the game, next to BRD and DNC. Combat boiled down to casting the same 4 or 5 spells on the mob, cast heals and buffs on the party, and if the fight lasted longer than 30 seconds, maybe get a dps spell in to try and magic burst. WoW is different because the buffs/debuffs last longer, and are secondary spells on dedicated classes. After Burning Crusade, every class spec had at least some buffs and debuffs to help the party. Take those away, give them to a dedicated buff/debuffs class, Shaman or whatever and you're back to Vanilla where you want a couple shaman and pallys for buffs, but otherwise as dedicated healers, and the rest as pure dps classes or tanks.
EQ is great, shit gets so chaotic
>>339836893
You mean like that failed arch age and BDO? Sure thing
Just give me an MMO with Dark Souls 1 gameplay famalamadingdong
>>339844314
Break up and emphasize support.
Have a dedicated mobility support.
Buff/Debuffs obviously.
Summoning support.
Target analyzing (wouldn't work in WoW, but there are other rpgs where it does)
Area denial.
If you start taking a realistic tactical approach, imagine a raid of 12 dudes with swords fighting a giant Rhino-shark, where you actually physical were would matter a lot more.
The issue with MMO's comes down to latency, you have way to many people to really punish mismanagement and bad tactical play, so actual tactical elements are removed and replaced with numbers balancing.
Imagine a Fire Emblem MMO, or an Age of Empires one, where it's Everquest'd but with its roots and you can start to imagine how you could diversify players.
>>339845419
Are you me?
Because an EVE style fantasy game would be amazing, at least in my head
>Build up your own castles and kingdoms
>Exploit the land for the resources
>Players seige eachothers towns, friends and enemies and grudges are built
>some players who've been playing fucking forever have the ability to become avatars of some kind of god and release doomsday tier magic upon their enemies, like plague of undeath or a tempest of arcane power
Only in my dreams
>>339845464
Archeage was really more WOW clone then an actual MMO.
BDO is good, except its still has bad korean game design where the majority of the game is just mass murder of random mobs for loot that is only profitable in bulk
>>339845464
Like EVE
>mfw MMOs don't have Pullers like Monks any more
>mfw MMOs don't have Enchanters for crown control any more
>mfw MMOs don't have Monks for doing everything incredibly any more
>mfw MMOs have killed Kiting
dqx had player and monster "weight" in that you could push against the monster to keep it away from the target it was running after, delaying its attacks. had weight up and down spells for players and monsters
battle pace was slower to make up for how strong incoming damage from monsters can be
still sad that we'll never see it released outside japan
>>339845805
Pathfinder tried and it crashed and burned.
Personally, I really like the idea of playing some sort of Warrior-Lord, where you are a character but you build up an NPC militia and can combine to form armies and kingdoms, etc. The issue is balancing the power of NPCs versus PCs, because if you're paying gold for followers its going to feel lame if one dude can fuck them all up, and on the other hand if NPCs straight up beat players than noone feels empowered.
It would give you a way to actually participate while offline, though, which has always been Eve's one weakpoint.
>>339845907
I honestly miss the games where there was like maybe 3 or 4 mobs but they were strong and presented a challenge, instead of grabbing 7+ enemies and one person taking all the blows
I want a game where everything has weight to it, Tera was kinda fun in that sense I wasn't sliding around while I swung my axe or running at high speeds as I do combos
>>339843793
>SKELETONS ARE FINE
>>339845805
>how to effectively keep your playerbase below 100
>>339845615
The issue with emphasizing support is it would lead to a lot of similar fights and/or useless players.
You have a bunch of different classes good at this that are not DPS/Tank/Heal, you need to have something for those players to do in every fight, or they're useless beyond mediocre dps/heals built into the class as secondary abilities. Have a "mobility specialist" expect a bunch of fights where bad guys crowd control you. Have "area denial" specialists? Expect a lot of adds, every fight, because otherwise what do they do?
>>339846428
And tank n' spank with "no stand in fir pls" isn't boring?
>>339845423
>There isn't though, not really.
So you're saying a class that can debuff the various resistances, increases damage taken, can buff damage dealt, increases attack and cast speed and doesn't have a single heal or ability to reduce damage taken by the party fulfills the same role as a dedicated heal class without any offensive buffs or debuffs?
That's retarded.
>>339845805
>Because an EVE style fantasy game would be amazing, at least in my head
Age of Wushu is probably the closest you can get
>>339846514
When support is a secondary part of Trinity classes, you can have much more variety in fights. Look at say Naxx, how many different fights with different mechanics, patchwerk's hard gear check dps race, Heigan's dance, Etc. Look at Kara, bunch of different fights and mechanics. Variety happens because people aren't stuck with one thing outside the Trinity and have abilities they can use situationally rather than as their dedicated job.
Again, the main difference between buffs/debuffs between WoW and FFXI is a function of the length of time they last vs. the length of fights. Debuffs didn't last in FFXI, so had to be recast multiple times a fight, buffs didn't last, and had to be recast. In WoW buffs are near permanent, and debuffs can be stacked and reupped easily (sunder, warlock curses)
>>339845805
A problem with EVE is you have to constantly be getting larger to take on the next objective. You can't just stay in your tight knit group and hit the next landmark; you can rove around and gank loners but that kind of gameplay only holds your interest for so long.
You end up in asymmetrical fleet fights which always escalates, and as you require more people to match escalating opponents, you lose the core of what bound your group together to begin with. Wormholes addressed this issue a little bit, but it's a bit like instancing the world, and nobody cares that you took over that L5 wormhole because it's not on the map.
>>339835062
The way to solve this is to completely remove heals and potions. Have support classes support parties in other ways like damage mitigation and other utilities. Rogue classes that actually disarm traps and help the party get around some mobs. Design encounters that actually challenge players to finish the entire thing with one life bar and incentivize exploring the whole dungeon.
tl;dr It's a game design issue.
>>339843536
This is precisely what FFXIV is running into today with class design space. New classes are so limited by what has come before, because every member of a 'role' has to be capable of being brought into endgame content which only represents a single very specific meta for that role. We could have crowd tanks, single boss tanks, dodge tanks, and pulling tanks, but take away just one or two magic damage cooldowns and suddenly you have only 20-25% of groups that clear A8S using a PLD, for example.
That's a game specific problem though. XIV is built around highly tuned boss fight content, and as such is easily disrupted by alternate play styles. It should at least have some highly tuned mass battles against hordes of foes to spice things up.
>>339837305
>>339843781
pretty much sounds like guild wars 1 just with more skills used at a time. definitely cut it down to at most 10-15 skills at max skill points, otherwise you will have meta balancing issues like >>339841086 says
>>339847263
>L5 wormhole
without holy trinity you get gw2.
>>339835062
mmos are trash
they have always been trash
no amount of modification can make them not trash
>>339835062
Why is DPS the best thing ever?
>>339847043
What do the buff/debuffs classes do in FFXI when they aren't casting buffs/debuffs? Heal, mostly, because they're subbed whm. So no, not really.
>>339847391
Sorry, C5; have to get the gibberish right.
>>339835062
Many MMOs used various approaches, from classless custom builds as in mabinogi to item-based builds as in eve online. Games like wakfu used to barely care heals and rely a lot on positioning, cc, and other kinds of supports, especially with interesting strategies that require very specific builds and item specs to pull off. Then they decided "fuck it" and made the whole game a pure damage-per-turn race, but still.
Then of course there's EQ-likes.
MMOs truly are dead, but obviously the best solutions are either custom builds (either skill-based or item-based, e.g. an MMO-adapted version of path of exile), or a completely new and innovative system.
>>339847516
are pokemon controlled like gundams in g gundam now?
>>339847478
>>339847408
>I have never played an MMO in my life
>>339844314
just let damage dealers and healers do the same damage as the control classes, problem solved.
healer damage could be done in various ways.
>>339847352
Why have one lategame character able to participate in everything late game?
Let's say at level 500 of NewMidWestRPG Online there are 8 late game dungeons.
Have one focus on Buffs/Debuffs
One focused on Mobility
One focused on Damage output
One focused on class Tank and Heal
One puzzle dungeon
One where the hybrid classes work the best, like a timed multi-objective dungeon.
Etc.
Make it to where even the best Warrior can only participate in 5 or 6 of the 8 dungeons, make him have to roll a Ranger to do those other two, while giving him two choices for Dungeon 3 and 4 since both Rangers and Warriors do well.
It's alright to have the weird support/control/hybrid classes not be able to participate in everything... but you can also have dungeons that don't support Tank/Heal/Deeps, etc.
This will also likely diversify the late game meta, as said Ranger will act completely different between a dungeon where Warrior/Wizard/Cleric is present versus one where Monks/Heal Shamans/Enchanters are the focus.
Get rid of the expectation that you only have to level one character through.
>>339847516
thx for reminding me how retarded the show is
>>339847290
good idea as well my nigger. eliminate healing classes!
>TFW crafting jewing is dead in MMOs except EVE
Just kill me, thats all I was ever good at
>>339848152
Then what good are the damage dealers? You're not creating a table, just replacing one side of the Trinity (damage replaced with control)
>>339835062
numbers-numberdown-numbersup
MMOs are dying because of one thing - classes.
Everybody's split on the ideals of a class system or lack thereof, ranging from freeform to strict trinities.
The problem? Metagaming.
As previously mentioned earlier, even if you gave players massive freedom in builds and classes, it'd take a short time before meta builds emerge and dominate the rest. It's impossible to balance something of this magnitude so of course meta builds are a question of when, not if.
Trinity styled MMOs where there are clear cut classes and roles are much easier to balance but presents a different set of problems where roles become dull and cookie cutter strategies and builds once again emerge.
Everybody wants to build the way they want but not everybody wants to be efficient and not everybody wants to have fun. Metagaming killed MMOs.
>>339847290
Or how about eliminate both dedicated healers and dedicated tanks. All classes are different types of dps, ranged, melee, magic, physical with different mechanics (pets, necromancy, combos, energy, take hits, bleeds, traps, blah blah), as well as some buff/debuffs abilities and damage mitigation/threat mitigation abilities. Diablo II, the MMO. Boss fights get to be crowd control, movement and threat management based all at the same time,with the boss going after different people all the time and each player using whatever abilities they have to counter that while the boss is coming after them.
>>339835062
>holy trinity
>tank-heal-control
I think you mean bard-bard-bard.
Excuse me while I kite your entire fucking zone.
>>339848706
Your explanation really only leaves one option open, randomness.
Essentially, force people to build ahead of time for multiple possible outcomes.
The issue with that, is that when you get to floor 4 of late game Uberdungeon and you open up the throne room, and, look, oh joy its Prince Unfuck and his two Night Mistresses... again, fuck I wish we could get the Princess encounter, Holy Choir, or King Unfuck just once this month, god damn. Etc.
You start fucking around with expectation range and people start get frustrated very, very very fast.
>>339835062
>tfw instead of reshackel/resheep/rebanish/refear even, it became spinn-to-win thru the dungeon instead
>even threat became a minor thing
>multitude of diverse and specific jobs
I guess this, but I just miss the days back in TBC on WoW where I actually had to use my CC spells
>>339848706
>I've never played an MMO before therefore I'm an expert on the subject
>>339848480
no sorry I brainfarted. What I mean is: Do not have dedicated damage dealers. Have tank/heal/control and let all of them do equal amounts of damage alongside all of the other stuff they do. damage required to kill a boss is then split between all classes and bosses and stuff should give everyone stuff to do besides just dealing damage.
>>339849504
the idea is to just get away from encounters where a portion of the raid just stands there dealing damage. you don't do that in any single player game, why should you do it in an mmo?
>>339849190
Yeah, this is what I thought as well. The real solution is to move the focus away from class systems towards the environment.
Metabuilds are built to suit the environment in a darwin-vidya fashion where nonmeta builds aren't taken in parties and the meta ones are sought after.
So let's make the game focus on the environment and creating randomness that niche/specialized builds will struggle with versus spread out classes.
A new problem though - how random? People will record and turn everything predictable and THEN build a metabuild for the best consistent result.
Too random? Player builds are muddled as everyone tries to do everything, losing any sense of identity that makes playing an RPG fun.
Starting to either feel like a catch-22 or a really complex problem that hasn't really been solved in decades.
>>339849606
Just standing there is generally only one patchwerk like dps test fights, or vanilla (or old EQ) style tank and spanks, which are basically non-existant any more. Anyone who says the Trinity is boring because of tank and spank fights doesn't play any more.
Eq clone or not, every MMO is slightly different.
The issue with a "multitude of diverse and blah blah blah" is that you push too much on the plate too fast.
Start out with 4 classifications, whatever your core loop is, Tank/Heals/Deeps or otherwise, and one wildcard classification.
Then allow the game to adapt around that, then add stuff one at a time so everything has a nice, organic purpose in your meta.
Players will decide the roles of certain classes one way or another, no one was really a "battle Engy" in vanilla TF2 for example. Let players have control of class dynamic because they will gain said control one way or another eventually. Then when everything is settled throw in a new wildcard class and let them find their place, keep what you have to buff/nerf and edit to a minimum. Let things evolve organically.
Don't just develop Knight, Barbarian, Paladin, and Soldier class from the get go, then get mad when players start enforcing Knight and Paladin-only tanking just because you gave the other two tanking abilities. Devs need to suck it up and understand they don't have 100% of control over their game so rapid expansion results in shit and hurt feelings.
>>339848334
Consumers love large markets, small producers don't. Once there's global markets in your game, the crafting game is commoditized and they race to the bottom of whoever can produce it for the cheapest. The alternatives in the past were a trade chat, which ends up a spam of things few people are interested in. EVE uses regional markets, which to start off was a happy medium, but it's been around for so long that players have largely organized the regional markets into a global market through the eve market data relay. There aren't really huge 'profits' to be made in EVE producing things now, you're trading time and effort for a small margin above cost; which is basically growing your value at about the rate the money supply continues to increase.
>>339848172
>Get rid of the expectation that you only have to level one character through.
Fuck alts. Really. Why should you be forced to level another character if you want to experience all the content? (Aside from single class specific quest chains, I suppose.) If I'm good enough, then why shouldn't I be able to be successful in every dungeon?
>>339849405
Aw that's sad, you should play a few before the genre is completely dead.
>>339850075
Sort of, but you haven't taken into account Piracy and the fact that Eve, to a small degree, has evolved compound services, i.e. sales, buyer loyalty, expiditing, things they can onto your 10 x Iron Ingot that make it a better deal 910 currency then the 10 x Iron Ingot you can get for 800 currency some place else.
Overall you are right though, MMO markets don't realistically immitate things like quality control or stock value (it happens only in extreme circumstances like the recent huge server war, any normal day will demand the same amount of Refined Sand as any other normal day).
How would you go about introducing creative advantages in MMO markets?
>>339850082
Because that forces you to be useful in every dungeon that comes out, which reduces class and encounter variety, making the game copy/paste.
The way you can advance to the late game can be made more diverse, though. Mid game should be similarly fun to late game.
>>339847531
>What do the buff/debuffs classes do in FFXI when they aren't casting buffs/debuffs? Heal, mostly, because they're subbed whm. So no, not really.
You're talking FFXI.
I'm not.
>>339847352
>It should at least have some highly tuned mass battles against hordes of foes to spice things up.
There's always the odd turn consisting solely of waves of trash mobs.
>>339835062
DAoC, man I miss those times. I hope Camelot Unchained will bring back those feels.
>>339850075
EVE still has very strong regional markets, but only in nulsec where importing and building is the only way to get shit, and if you can't build or ship it yourself you're gonna be paying a premium
I run a JF service for my corp/alliance, they're paying me for my fuel and time, and then paying me even more for all the extra shit I cram in my spare cargo, like ammo, mods, rigs, ect, that you can't get in the region from rats
The problem with MMO economies outside of EVE the god awful universal Auction House that magically transfers goods around the world instantly, as well as making all the good shit boss drop only, and that boss drop can't be traded, its fucking cancer
>>339850082
Could mitigate this with alternate leveling paths. Instead of having players pushed from a leveled zone to another higher leveled zone, could have 5 or 6 different areas in the same leveling range. Maybe even quests that lock in that character's allegiance along the way that provide different quests based on the choices made.
>>339846572
Was that not the snowcone flavor he wanted?
>>339850549
Investment in guilds as those they were corporations? Like, give a guild a certain amount of currency each raid lockout, get something back based on how good they do?
>>339850549
Markets in MMO's are fueled by difficulty to obtain, transfer, and sell.
Grand Exchange on Runescape is a prime example on how to kill an MMO economy
>>339851087
At this point Leveling is a dead dinosaur of the MMO genre, eventually it becomes a loot grind, and the leveling process is merely an afterthought when it comes to MMO designs today, once developers realize this and just remove leveling and replace it with character building and gear grinding, then players will rejoice since they can play with friends without facerolling through 20 hours of filler just to play with others.
>>339846198
thanks mr. skeltal
>>339851235
>Lets go to kedge keep
Oh god, tree of savior had all my hopes and dreams and then crushed them.
>>339835062
turn all melees into offtanks with short CC abilities and make treath/aggro random, there we go!
>>339845907
>>339845907
>WoW isn't an MMO
>>339835062
The simple way to fix MMOs is to go back to PSO's design. There is no dedicated holy trinity, everybody can fill in roles. Like a Fomar can cast support buffs and do spell damage, while a Hunewearl can heal and do melee damage. The endgame doesn't consist of raids or even focus on reaching level cap. What kept you playing was grouping up with people to find rare gear and then trading that rare gear with other players for better gear. The game had so many different weapon effects and each race had their own niche (Fonewearl Megid can pierce, casts can't cast spells but are immune to certain effects and have higher than average stats, etc). All of these things encouraged people to play together and make their own builds to not only give them a edge in combat but make them stand out as well from other people and give people satisfaction that they are progressing.
>>339850820
So what does the buff/class do, in a fight that lasts 5 or 6 minutes?
If buffs/debuffs last 5 min, you cast them once a fight and them what?
If Debuffs last only ~30 seconds (enough time to get all of them on the target, and some similarly short buffs on the group) you cast them over and over, as they run out, add some buffs if they run out. This is a different play style from DPS how? Instead of casting damage at the target they cast debuffs, they have to keep casting them in a specific order, and maybe stagger them a bit, but are essentially dps. And if there are multiple debuffers, you again end up with cast specific debuffs and THEN WHAT?
You think adding a specific 4th pillar will make a difference in the play style of MMOs, it won't because those classes will be dps classes that don't actually do damage. The fights can be exactly the same as WoW, just for a new class, and it changes nothing about how the game plays.
>>339851787
Sandbox*
my bad
>>339835062
That picture makes me think on what PSO2 is (or was). Each class is centered on maximizing your DPS. Some better than others depending context/fight. And there's no tank, no dedicated healer either, but its common to see 1 or 2 supports that also do DPS. (if you play with randoms there's chance you will see 0 or 4+ supports which sucks).
>>339851865
So, borderlands or Diablo multiplayer?
>>339850549
Custom textures for one. Custom recipes (e.g. you can mix X and Y together to give Z, but the proportion of X to Y changes the properties of the Z, such as a damage v.s. protection tradeof. This can be further refined by using a W and V combination, with the same kind of tradeofs, OR a M and N combination, likewise. Which you chose, and how you refine, further impacts stats tradeof), especially if you can make very complex combinations that only activate their total potential after several steps, can also work out well. People will generally not want to give up the secret of their recipe, so it won't be wiki'd. Appearance slots; just a toggle on whether or not that robe you're crafting also has a hood, for instance. Add to that the ability to custom-name items.
Together, this gives crafters a lot of ways to show their mad skillz in various areas and I think they're all realistic options. The only real issue is custom textures, in particular when it features cheese pizza, but regulating that shouldn't be too hard when players are obviously willing to help you with that via reports.
>>339851996
I'm still mad that they killed it with p2w bullshit.
>>339851648
Look forward to IMC's next game, Wolffuckers.
>>339851460
Honestly I think MMOs would do okay with the Dark Souls design in terms of stats. Where offensive stats are mostly to meet the amount required for the spell/weapon you want to use, and the rest are focused on utility stats like more stamina or health.
>>339835062
fix mmos by giving monsters actual AI and not a spell list to cycle through while managing threat
>all these worthless millennials that never got to play the best MMO ever made
>>339851952
>This is a different play style from DPS how?
You really don't see how increasing damage dealt and dealing damage are distinct from each other?
Bring a group of people who can only increase damage dealt, but don't deal damage themselves and see what happens. It's a catalyst improving upon what is already there.
>You think adding a specific 4th pillar will make a difference in the play style of MMOs
No, I don't.
My only point was saying that lumping support and healing together, saying they both fulfil the same role is retarded.
Yes, healers often have support abilities, yes support classes often have heals, but if you purely look at the core roles they are distinct from each other.
>>339845464
Shitty korean games aren't really what people mean when they say the want a game. And BDO is not really a sandbox. Just a themepark without any attractions.
>>339852106
Isn't the "Diablo meta" right now 3x support 1x DPS?
>>339851865
Na mate, you're confusing PSO's genre, its more diablo then MMO.
MMO's are about massive persistent open worlds, honestly thats the problem with modern MMOs, they're trying too hard to be WOW which is really just watered down diablo 2 with an open world yet still entirely built around instanced loot grinding.
In reality its combat that needs a complete overhaul, MMO combat has been stuck in the 90s, even "action" MMOs which just replace auto attack with a filler cleave use the same game design that EQ did back in 99, which is spam skills until enemy dies, the MMO combat system needs an overhaul to be closer to games like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls, where damage is important, but the core of the combat is more about dodging and blocking damage with AI that doesn't just sit and auto attack you
>>339852256
They reworked the system
Free accounts have a skill cap of 300
Verified accounts have a skill cap of 320
Subs are 330
It takes like 6 months to get 1 skill to 300 alone, and at that point diminishing returns on quality makes it impossible to benefit from 330 over 300, the difference is like .02%
>>339850773
That's taking artificial diversity too far. Sure, you can give a certain set of classes slight advantages in a scenario and the meta/cookie cutter/standard composition will form around them, but don't go about neutering a class's viability completely.
>>339845464
Like eve, mabinogi, UO, haven and hearth, runescape, etc.
>>339850549
You have to make a huge economy of items, make specializing in producing any one thing efficiently take a long time to perfect, and introduce more items continuously. This will more accurately represent crafting specialization.
Rather than oh I'm an armor crafter so I can make every piece of armor at its maximum potential a month into playing, it would need to be more along the lines of: I specialize in making this specific type of glove, and on a multiplicative exp scale, you can continue to add +1% more stats to i. Make the base items work on a market system to satisfy the majority of the population and crafters able to make the basics everyone needs (plate gauntlets or whatever), but then for the more robust players they would have to seek out a crafter that has dedicated significant time and energy to make +14% plate gauntlets, and he will charge a hefty premium for the time and effort he's dedicated into attaining that level. It might also be necessary to increase the active time it takes to make such higher quality items so that you don't become a one-man factory churning them out AFK.
This is where introducing new items also becomes necessary so the oldest crafter isn't the only player in town, so newer players could specialize in the newer items if they wanted a competitive advantage against the older crafters, and older crafters will have to consider if they want to shift into newer technologies.
I would have to think a bit more about how to translate older crafting skills into new ones, and if there should be some inherent advantage to being a longstanding crafter in acquiring new skills.
>>339852932
So there's no time limit anymore? What about item spawning chance changing based on subscription rank?
>>339852671
How is the playstyle different? A Buffing class is a healing class that doesn't heal damage but prevents damage. The play style is the same though, target group member, cast spell, target different party member, cast spell. A debuffing class is a dps class that doesn't do damage, but increases damage taken, and the play style is the same (target monster, cast debuff).
>Bring a group of people who can only increase damage dealt, but don't deal damage themselves and see what happens. It's a catalyst improving upon what is already there.
Bring a group of all DPS and not tanks healers, see how you do. Obviously a mixed group better. You'd go from 1 Tank, 1 Healer, 3 DPS to 1 tank 1 healer 2 dps 1 buff/debuff, but it won't actually change the gameplay at all.
>>339852932
>the MMO combat system needs an overhaul to be closer to games like Monster Hunter or Dark Souls
So MMOs need to be more like shitty action RPGs?
>>339853115
I've been playing, item discovery seems much better, constantly find floatsom all the time
Jorb redid the pay 2 win shit a while ago, even better is they fixed the skill caps too, they were 80-120-200 for free/verified/sub accounts respectively, now the power gap between free and sub is negligible.
And then we have Blade & Soul where every class is DPS
>>339852494
rip
I miss it
>>339853406
They already are shitty action RPGs with arbitrary mechanics added on.
In reality the combat needs to becomes simplified in the fact that they need to remove the trinity, but replace it with skill based gameplay that becomes easier in groups, then divert the complexity into the game world itself, rather then being instanced grinds.
>>339853457
Do we still have a /v/illage? I might just come back
>>339835062
MMOs don't need to be fixed, most of the stuff people are complaining about here is a problem with net code limitations or want to turn a Massively Multiplayer Online experience into just a online multiplayer game.
>>339853029
You could force them to participate in a minigame to create those +14% gloves, something entertaining like Tetris so it doesn't feel like a complete chore of Simon Says with fucking letters. Looking at you, BDO fishing.
>>339853661
>I haven't read a single post in the thread, including the OP, and I've also never played a single MMO in my life
>that means I'm an expert on the topic.
>>339853386
because healing erases the mistakes of the player and is a reactionary handwave
preventing it requires paying attention to something other than health bars as you need to be prepared for preventing that damage
>>339853651
Not sure, i've been a hermit
>>339853705
Minigames don't work because true crafters will have to go through hundreds of thousands of item crafts in a few years' worth of playtime.
>>339853750
Shut the fuck up nerd.
I'm sorry that Themepark MMOs killed your precious Sandbox MMOs.
>>339853386
>How is the playstyle different?
A healer will be on the lookout for environmental effects and boss attacks for proactive healing.
A class focused on increasing party damage will be focusing on what the party is doing, coordinating to achieve the maximum benefit for their skills. Look how raids work in Skyforge if you want a specific example.
>>339853860
Ion plz go, no one cares about your new groundfire mechanic
>>339853842
I mean minigames for the much more important things, maybe have the outcome influenced by their skill at the minigame too, with a way to practice it of course.
PSO is the best MMO
>>339837305
Would be too complicated for mass appeal. MMOs need mass appeal to get big enough to be sustainable.
I'd play it, though.
>>339853705
>You could force them to participate in a minigame to create those +14% gloves, something entertaining like Tetris so it doesn't feel like a complete chore of Simon Says with fucking letters. Looking at you, BDO fishing.
Pre Heavensward crafting in FF14 was very well received and enjoyed by a lot of people precisely because it wasn't simple.
>>339854123
That's not true at all, though. The MMOs that have succeeded in the post-WoW era have all been niche ones (dofus, eve, runescape) whereas everything that tried mass appeal died.
>>339852151
I like this. Encourage actual craftsmanship and artistry.
>>339853813
game name pls
>>339837201
>LOTRO
good example I was gonna post
more recently it's been watered down quite a lot, but LOTRO is still one of the games that I thought did class roles best - there are obvious tank/damage/heal/cc/buff/debuff classes and they were all super worthwhile having around, but at the same time you could do without them if you wanted...you still needed a tank/healer unless you were doing a really extreme case but the tank could be a half-tank or the healer could be a half-healer and you'd still get on fine
>>339854243
To be fair, most of those came out before WOW.
>>339853793
Okay, so buffing as a class role, is mindless healing because it's basically cast buffs on party, recast buffs on party before they run out, have multiple buffs? Your button pressing becomes 1 tab 1 tab 1 tab 2 tab 2 tab 2 tab 3 tab...etc, and Debugging is exactly the same as dps, 12345, 12345. Why does this need to be its own class? How does having this be its own class make any difference in gameplay?
>>339854140
>pre
What happened in Heavensward?
>>339854243
GW2, ESO and FFXIV aren't dead. They aren't WoW tier success sure but not dead at all
>>339854442
GW2 and ESO are dead. FF14 died once.
>>339854442
They're pretty fucking dead for no sub MMOs
>>339854551
>GW2 and ESO are dead
Citation please. Also include your definition of 'dead'
>>339854407
I'm not 100% on this as my buddy was the crafter, I don't really give a shit.
First they forced everyone to specialize in I think 3 professions max to get the maximum benefit while one of the most enjoyed things in ARR was getting benefits from mastering every crafting profession.
Secondly they turned the grind up to 11 and third they made crafted gear entirely and 100% useless whereas before it was the BiS gear by a small amount, useful for the min-max raiders. So all the tedium ended up being pointless.
QUESTION
Is there any game out there that has similar pvp combat like GW2 does? I love the gameplay of 3rd person fantasy hotkey pvp, but fuck Guild Wars 2, I will never buy the new addon.
>>339854712
It's all about threat balancing.
The real issue in MMO's is... boss fights. The idea that you have one really big dude with a fuckton of HP and damage.
Everything else is adds or environmental damage.
When you just have one giant target like that, the game becomes more centralized.
Imagine a 40 man Raid where you 40 people had to hold off an entire army 300 style and you'd see a different meta.
>>339854442
This is the problem of the modern MMO market, too.
WoW will still piss in everyone's pool until it's dead, and will still have a strong design factor well after its death.
Also, an MMO is considered a failure and dead on arrival unless it shows WoW growth levels. You know that for a fucking fact. Sad but true.
Another giant franchise needs to do what Blizzard dd and start an MMO based off a popular IP. This is the only thing that's going to sway the market and get loads of people interested in MMOs again.
Your first MMO ruins you for all subsequent ones. That's my theory, anyway.
>>339855118
>4 10 man phalanx responsible for controlling
different areas and mechanics of the encounter
fund it pls
>>339855118
WoW has bossfights like that, and they're not particularly interesting most of the time. Spoils of Pandaria is the best way I've seen it done. Hyjal was a fucking disgusting slog that I hated every fucking second of.
UTILITY SKILLS/SPELLS. I honestly believe they can save MMOs. Remember that instances and other content will have to conform to utility spells too ( which should go without saying though)
The issue with MMO's is that difficult encounters that require multiple attempts and adaption are considered the most boring.
WHY
CAN
YOU
SOLO
THE
WHOLE
FUCKING
GAME
ESPECIALLY TREE OF SAVIOR FUCK YOU IMC
YOU DESRVE YOUR 50% STOCKHOLDER PULLOUT
Tank-Healer-Damage-Control best dynamic.
Prove me wrong.You can't
>>339854351
You're talking about passive permabuffs, he's talking about short duration buffs that are more like a burst. Like a coercer in EQ2 had a +30% healing buff he could cast on a healer but it only lasted 10 seconds on a 50s cd; he could restore one ally's energy 10% of its max but it was on a 1min cd, etc. Coercers had like 7 bars of this stuff, and everything was situational, not rotational.
>>339851952
BRD was the hardest job in FFXI. You can ask pretty much anyone. It was entirely about positioning, as your buffs were all AOEs, and different people needed different buffs. You also were in charge of sleeping adds, and the sleep lasted 24 seconds at most, and mostly broke early. You also had to coordinate with monk boosts for their MND songs.
Also, debuffs were really really really hard to land on most HNMs, and elegy literally dropped the damage the tank was taking in half, meaning you did everything to land it. You also needed to pay attention to which SC>MB was coming up for threnody, as that would massively increase the damage if you got it to land as well.
BRDs also had the most situational equipment they also had to change to in a single fight, carried about 15 different instruments on them at all times.
BRDs never really helped heal unless it was their OH SHIT AOE curaga heal. They did not have the time.
>>339856239
DPS and Crowed control is a better
Action MMOs are the future, Bayonetta the MMO
>>339854351
>and Debugging is exactly the same as dps, 12345, 12345
are you really so brainwashed that this is the limit of your imagination?
I feel pity
>>339837305
Sounds like fucking shit
>>339835062
I POSTED THIS THE LAST THREAD AND I'M POSTING IT THIS THREAD
MABINOGI #1
>>339856564
Mabinogi was so fucking good holy shit
>>339837305
>skill points are obtained by using power crystals (lack of a better term)
>power crystals are obtained from rare mobs
>rare mobs are just normal mobs that spawned with slightly higher stats and a colored aura (small chance of occurring based on mob's "level")
>power crystals are tradeable
Just make skill points obtainable from experience points, your system sound like shit.
Having experience points doesn't mean you have to have levels.
>>339856614
WHATS WRONG WITH IT TODAY FAGGOT
I KNOW WHATS WRONG WITH IT
BUT DO YOU
>>339856038
>>339855118
FFXIV has fights like that, they are very boring.
>>339856449
BRDs could also sleep interrupt a lot of mechanics if they were paying attention.
>>339856157
My favorite was soloing instance content designed for 5 players as a lone archer, when the monsters were above my level.
>>339856710
They made it so everything is soloable, the new content is mostly drudge and boring, powercreep everywhere, they disabled or casualized a fuckton of cool mechanics like moongates, and everyone is level 99999999999 so nobody ever takes the time to party with new players for anything but rushing a dungeon despite the story and cutscenes being pretty cool.
>>339856157
The problem with sitting around waiting for a group to do literally anything is that it's a huge fucking hassle to find a proper group to do most things, and you end up sitting around doing nothing being bored more than you are actually playing the fucking game.
Guild Wars managed to be good enough despite needing a group for every little thing, and even then it was often a complete crap shoot to do anything you actually wanted to do because nobody else wanted to do it.
FFXI was just shit period.
Can't really think of other games where you had to group for literally everything.
>>339856742
but do you have version 2?
>>339857313
But do you have version 23?
>>339852494
Don't even get me started on millennials.
>>339857306
>The problem with sitting around waiting for a group to do literally anything is that it's a huge fucking hassle to find a proper group to do most things, and you end up sitting around doing nothing being bored more than you are actually playing the fucking game.
I was never fucking bored without a party finder.
I would go out quest to level up while spamming area chat or whispering people directly. I would gather, I would go out and hunt people in open pvp on both my warlock and my rogue.
When I leveled my warrior it became even easier: I made friends with a couple of healers, put them on my flist and never had to wait for a dungeon. Actually I never had had to wait for a dungeon on my warlock or rogue either because I knew my shit and people knew I knew my shit so they were happy to have a competent person playing with them.
Cross server dungeons killed all of that. In FF14 I can't make friends for the life of me.
>>339857057
>They made it so everything is soloable
Everything was always soloable, but true.
> the new content is mostly drudge and boring, powercreep everywhere, they disabled or casualized a fuckton of cool mechanics like moongates, and everyone is level 99999999999 so nobody ever takes the time to party with new players for anything but rushing a dungeon despite the story and cutscenes being pretty cool.
And bingo was his nameo
>>339857571
You're a millennial.
>>339857571
that poor kid
>>339857571
>I've always loved [insert subject here] but hated how popular it was
4chan in a nutshell
>>339855902
I remember when Warlocks in WoW were USEFUL for making summoning portals to gather up group members in front of dungeons. Good days, good days...
>>339835062
ITT: idiots think droppign the trinity will work when it's been proven wrong time and time again
It's always fun to see idiots think they know better than actual designers. Yet never offer any real fixes that does better.
>>339857845
>tfw I never had shards at raid start
in fact I never had more than 5 inventory slots dedicated to soul shards to begin with.
>>339844314
Trinity roles could be neat if it wasn't all the same exact WoW gameplay.
It's irrelevant what the classes do if the gameplay isn't somewhat unique and innovative over the same shit.
>>339857313
/kick healer
Never put up with this shit. Healers, tanks or dps that try to hold the group hostage get removed. Everyone is replacable.
>>339857891
I just wanna tank again in pvp.
WAR and Rift had some the most fun pvp experiences I've ever had.
>>339857845
>RO
>shoot people into high level areas trough TPs
>WoW
>shoot people into high level areas trough portals
fun
Just remove dungeons and make all the big bad evil guys run around destroying player built cities.
>>339845805
Making theme park MMOs like sandboxes is simple though.
>>339835062
>WOW invented healers
what is D&D. Fucking Millennials
>>339845805
everything but that last line applies to haven and hearth, no?
>>339857845
Many concepts in WoW were so fucking cool, from the mage-only zone to the sacrificial full-party summon of warlock, to the varied game areas which all allow the same level of progression, to the ability of alliance to sneak unto a horde-bound ship full of horde players and survive the trip
World design was especially cool in that it was a kind of "multi-onion" design (you have a town, then a low-level zone, then a mid-level zone, then a high-level zone, in kind of incandescent radii around that town, more or less, and you had many such zone throughout the world). The different hubs looked very different and thematically interesting.
Little details like if you drink too much, you start hallucinating pink elephants could be extremely fun if you played with friends and you all started together.
Even mob pulling, only possible due to the world's openness, could be a source of great hilarity for all parties involved.
>tree of savior has a billion of fucking classes
>devs dont even try to fix anything regarding viability
>fine classes getting buffed, shit classes being left to starve or shit buffs (+1 damage), overpowered classes being gutted but ONLY for PvP
>people still go 'tank+healer required' for parties
>only difference is that mages have roflstrong abilities (joint penalty, pass/haste/quicken) which guarantees them a role as well
>>339857845
>guy in trade paying 50g for a portal to Dalaran
>port him to Ancient Dalaran
>he paid me 50g to get ported to nowhere and die
Anyone here read REAMDE?
Now that's an MMO I'd like to play
>>339857559
took some searching, but here it is
>>339858406
>people expected tree of savior to be any good
I've never seen a korean MMO flunk in korea as fast as Tree of Savior
shit is beautiful
>>339858253
Kind of, haven and hearth is a great game, but is held back a lot.
I really wish there was something that was more high fantasy with wizardry and such.
>>339857313
>>339858552
both of these are shit, >>339856742 is the best
>>339850075
WoW did this well with putting BiS enchants and whatever behind rep. In any case, a lot of players just don't try to get an item on farm if it seems like a chore, where they could just pay for it.
..Or challenge level gating the content. It slims out the competition if the boss to get mats and items is OP.
>>339858552
why are there so many of these telling the same joke in the same way
>>339857571
that face seems to already comprehend the years of torment that are coming
>>339858685
yeah its a shame the world gen blows ass
>>339858736
What is friendly fire?
>>339858696
>>339858757
Guy made 300 versions of the thing after it became popular because he was ashamed of the poor quality of the original. Then there are modifications with the healer cum-dumpster.
>>339848706
Inaccurate. Maybe not for PvE, but that's irrelevant. Making interesting raids for an MMO where it's only going to be the same abilities on rotation probably shouldn't be the prime element of design. PvP benefits from unique class setups though, really simply.
How about we abandon garbage power gamer MMOs and go back to role-playing, player homes, and community directed objectives?
>>339856449
How does having a dedicated support role change anything though? Would the fights in WoW have to be different is FFXI RDMs and BRDs exist I'm some form and other classes don't have some abilities? Does anything have to change, at all to the actual mechanics of the game? Not really. Group composition is a little different, a few fewer dps and healers, add a few support, that's it. Adding a 4th or 5th role to the Trinity doesn't stop WoW from being WoW no matter how complicated that role is.
>>339852932
>51 minute Iron Reaver kill
what the fuck, how is that even possible?
>>339844174
>You weren't confined to your job role
>Implying
RDM was the refresher.
Bard was just a variant of RDM
All classes had subjobs they had to use or else it was shit.
>>339858662
everyone knew it would be shit
the problem is that nobody had expected for imc to be THIS shit, really, they are setting a new standard of being bad. i played with ankama, who were complete newbies with mmorpgs and still managed to make dofus and wakfu without any massive problems (even if both are kinda mediocre and low pop now),
but holy shit,
>closing access
>shit packs then removing them
>trying to apply korean jewery to western market while also trying to cater to each market individually
>two independent balancing of the game
>holy fuck did you guys just nuke the game with bugs again
>bad servers everywhere
>2 FPS in cities
>no content later on, even less without gvg since everyone is neut now
>trying to cater to two groups (grinders after lv 200, themepark before lv 200)
>oblivious to it's own game (priests getting blessing with 30% INT scaling & 90% SPR scaling even when priests were fucking fine due to chap, meanwhile krivis suffer to have anything worth it since cure [more now with the 1.2 INT] is stronger at best and equal at worst and you can scroll daino, that aukuras buff sure is worth it!)
>>339859113
Exactly. This is what MMOs are about. The gameplay is just another way to build relations between people, it should never be the prime focus in any way.
classes etc. will always have one function (buffing, cc'ing, dps etc.). Instead of trying to eliminate this, MMOs should try to make these roles fun and varied activities. like the difference between wow's static combat and other dynamic action oriented combat. Both are DPS roles but vastly different funwise
I would prefer that MMOs just die off. That's the only way to fix them.
the ideal mmo is a guild wars 1 remake minus the pve elite skills that fucked everything up in GWEN, op. nothing ever matched it, and after 2 was garbage, no one will even come close.
>>339859391
>blessing gets buffed when priest is already a great class
>thaumaturge exists... for no reason because their buffs will never be able to compete, even after dumping millions into attribute
>>339859367
Back in the glory days of crab camps and RDM refreshers, I made a name for myself as the RDM who could stoneskin and set up for thf's SATA on the tank.
>>339859990
>Tank losing emnity some how
Those were the days.
Buying Albion Onlineis, it any good?
>>339859113
People want goals they can reach, not just to play pretend.
Doesn't help that people also hate dying to other players and won't tolerate it unless it is also part of a treadmill
>>339860181
*is it
>tfw can heal/tank/dps solo
>ywn 55/ss uw with your bro again
>ywn make it to the hoh and get crushed by koreans again
>ywn sell a 15-22 crystalline sword with garbage mods for more ectos than you thought youd ever own
>>339860181
No. It tried but failed.
Being a healer appeals to my submissive nature. What's the best healer game right now?
>>339860640
tell me more
no contents?
I'd want it like Monster Hunter, where a team is generally helpful and all but required for being fast and efficient or for beating the toughest challenges, but a solo player can still manage to get by on their own if they're good enough
So I guess what I'm saying is that I want Monster Hunter but in an online open world and not really an MMO
>>339860667
can`t you faggots stick to your own threads
must you try to ruin every mmo thread in the board?
>>339860667
mmos that let you tap rotations with one hand
you also want to ignore the DPS when they get hit with the undodgeable AoE and blame them for pulling
>>339860946
What if it was possible to do solo with more time and preparation required? Like sharpstones or traps or whatever they use in MH was only craftable by Blacksmiths or a certain class.
>>339861427
MH is all soloable without traps and items.
You just need a good weapon and skill set.
I miss games with crowd control. I was a controller in CoH and my main job was making sure the large group of enemies were stunned. Throw in the secondary powers of buffing the group and it was always entertaining. And pulls of mobs were huge, usually 10+ enemies in a single group, not to mention pulling multiple groups at once. I miss it a lot.
>>339857306
>you HAVE to sit around town waiting for party
>what is crafting
>what is gathering
>what is market jewing
yeah ok
>>339861751
Even the weapon only needs to be good enough to beat the usually generous time limit, since armor is optional as long as you don't get hit
>>339841589
>>339845419
>>339845805
Don't worry, your dream game is already in the works.
Mapmakers and Caravaneers are both important roles in the game, because there's no minimap and inventory space is limited. Not only that, you aren't just plopped into the world. There's an entire AI kingdom, and character creation involves you taking over an NPC's life, gaining benefits from your family's resources, prestige, and even their genetics. You're not simply a knight, you might choose to be from an entire family of knights or the the black sheep amongst your thieving relatives.
I'm really looking forward to it because, unlike EVE, there will be enjoyable content without having to screw other people over.
What do you guys think about Chronicles of Elyria?
>fully destructible environment
>non-repeating quests
>player driven storyline
>player housing
>land ownership
>no classes, entirely skill based system
>castle sieges
Their kickstarter just finished and they managed to fund their project for $1.3M.
>>339837305
so a true sequel to GW?
I'm fine with that, would play
>>339862570
>>339862620
SHILLS CONFIRMED, ABANDON THREAD!
>>339862620
>1.3M
>for a project that big
>with a small team
Yeah no I don't think a single fucking thing about a game that isn't going to come out before 2040
>>339835062
I miss the days of hybrid builds in wow
>>339862760
It's a pipe dream for sure but I don't know of any other MMOs currently in development that look promising. Albion Online turned out to be Runescape 2.0 with p2w features and Crowfall looks extremely shallow and has clear SJW influences controlling it's development.
