>i play zelda because of the challenging puzzles for smart people like myself
>>339349917
Same
>>339350193
feeling kinda euphoric today
>>339349917
I find it hard to even call this a puzzle, if they spell it out for you.
>>339349917
Same
Wait a minute, that fire...
DO YOU NOT RIKE MY PUZZRES? I AM A PUZZRE GOD AND IT IS MY MISSION TO MAKE ZERUDA A PUZZRE GAEMU. ZERUDA NEEDS TO BE ABOUT PUZZRES AND CUTTING GRASS! I'M SUCH A BRIRRIANT GAEMU DESIGNA!
>>339349917
N64 - when zelda used to be good
No one anywhere, at any time or place has ever said anything even remotely like that, you faggot OP piece of shit.
>>339350920
The water temple would be so much fun if iron boots were a C-button item.
>>339350920
I love that dungeon, even as a kid I did but that doesn't take away from the fact, that this is literally the only dungeon in the game that isn't a glorified hallway with two extra deadends.Ironically also the most hated
>>339351382
The 3DS version in fact was fun
>>339351078
I have, because Zelda actually has way better puzzles than that, which you'd know if you'd played the games.
>>339350920
>N64 - when zelda used to be good
When it first went bad
>>339350920
The dark link room doesn't look right. Did they change it in the 3DS version?
I remember that room looking incredible in the game.
>>339353383
>>339351078
>nintendrone infighting
it's like friendly fire in doom
>>339353383
>I have, because Zelda actually has way better puzzles than that,
>implying
That is your average zelda "puzzle", it just was always accpeted and nobody questioned your delusions up to this point yet
>>339353532
Don't you remember it being an illusion?
>>339353632
Did it really fade? Oh I seem to have forgotten that part.I guess it makes sense that it was an illusion. The room looked kind of like stereotypical "inside the mind" scenes of shonen anime like soul eater
>>339353589
>That is your average zelda "puzzle"
Its mostly the dungeon puzzles that suck, otherwise that's only been the case reletively recently.
Hell, WW had that fantastic optional bomb puzzle in its forest dungeon.
Please name games with better puzzles than Zelda anyway.
>>339353796
Zero Escape.
I like zelda games but come on man.
>>339349917
>I play mature games for mature gamers like myself
Is this a "shit literally nobody on planet Earth has uttered unironically" thread?
>>339349917
Wasint Windwaker considered the easiest Zelda made ?
>>339350920
>Implying ALBW wasint GOAT as fuck.
>>339354336
>>Implying ALBW wasint GOAT as fuck.
It wasn't. It was mediocre as fuck. It just seems great because it's the first Zelda in over a decade to not be a total piece of shit.
>>339349917
Said no one ever.
>>339354286
I remember around skyward sword everyone went "zelda is primarily a puzzle series, even the combat is a puzzle, oh so smart"
http://www.zeldainformer.com/news/aonuma-talks-about-the-process-of-creating-puzzles-for-zelda-games
http://www.zeldainformer.com/exclusives/daily-debate-which-is-more-important-in-zelda-games-combat-or-puzzle-solvin
http://www.zeldadungeon.net/2014/07/aonuma-interview-on-puzzle-solving-and-gimmicks/
http://n4g.com/news/1538212/hyrule-warriors-interview-aonuma-hayashi-and-koinuma-on-puzzles-zelda-essence-and-development-freedom?info=true
>>339354660
>>339354286
The combat in zelda blows chunks too and the world exploration sucks as well.
What is zelda then other than a lame duck?
This whole mess looks like nintoddlers are running out of excuses
>>339354752
>http://www.zeldainformer.com/exclusives/daily-debate-which-is-more-important-in-zelda-games-combat-or-puzzle-solvin
>Each new dungeon and each new weapon introduced offers many different possibilities for mind-bending puzzles.
>mind-bending puzzles
They aren't mind-bending if the game goes out of its way to show you the solution and/or the solutions are incredibly obvious anyway. There's no point other than to waste your time and they become worse upon replays.
>>339355075
the hard baked cutscenes ruin it
>>339349917
Are these "puzzle intro" cutscenes skippable? If not then it's beyond saving.
>>339355075
>mind bending puzzles
lel
>>339356494
>Are these "puzzle intro" cutscenes skippable?
Nope. Mostly the cutscene of a door slamming close behind link isnt skipable either and you have to sit through it for every new room
>>339350502
>Loves puzzles
>Hasn't made a actually clever one since never
Granted a hard puzzle would make all the casuals on /v/ start bitching. Just look at all the people who complain about Sacred Grove thing in Twilight Princess.
I always thought MM's puzzles were pretty good.
The only zelda game I really like to be honest
>>339353732
Generally people don't go back to that room so you don't notice
>>339356696
>Just look at all the people who complain about Sacred Grove thing in Twilight Princess.
That wasnt hard just tedious
>>339354812
Zelda is about enabling the player to keep returning to different areas and re-exploring them as they progress and discover new things. There's barely anything that approaches it, especially when it comes to games that allow full on real time interaction.
>>339354552
Not the same guy but I thought the exact same
>>339357334
what? are you being serious here?
>>339356837
>dat central pillar
>>339356696
>2006 /v/
8.8 general
>HOW DO I DO THIS?!!!
>it's an image of the Sacred Grove
yup, /v/ has always been casual.
>>339356696
>Just look at all the people who complain about Sacred Grove thing in Twilight Princess.
Given the way its forced on you I wouldn't blame them if they're not used to solving that kind of thing. It would be perfectly fine if it were something done at your leisure, as opposed to something right before the most crucial point of the game.
>>339349917
>>339349917
Nobody has ever said that.
>>339357334
I always thought Zelda was about enabling the player to venture into areas they weren't suppose to go to yet but always be able to find a way out even if they weren't prepared.
Every room in any dungeon always had a means to get out even if you were missing an item or items for it.
>>339357360
Yes, why wouldn't I be? What the fuck even compares? Most 'metraoidvania' style games have simpler "hit the blue door with a blue attack" style lock and key progression.
>>339357518
That was true of the earlier games, but irrelevant in more recent games.
>>339357504
>http://www.zeldainformer.com/exclusives/daily-debate-which-is-more-important-in-zelda-games-combat-or-puzzle-solvin
>Each new dungeon and each new weapon introduced offers many different possibilities for mind-bending puzzles.
>mind-bending puzzles
>>339357534
You could even go back into old levels in quake 2.
Its not a new concept and zelda isnt very good at it either.
>>339357616
That doesn't say hard.
>>339353860
>Zero Escape.
Which ones did you actually find challenging?
>>339357773
It's really fucking puzzling how so many people claim to enjoy that pile of shit.
>>339357773
Both were pretty fun. They weren't ultra hyper mind twisters.
PS your comrads spelling out the puzzles for you in ZE1 was the game showing mercy for you being shit, so don't respond by mentioning that.
>>339357917
>PS your comrads spelling out the puzzles for you in ZE1 was the game showing mercy for you being shit, so don't respond by mentioning that.
Okay? I like the games, anon, but the puzzles aren't at all difficult.
>>339357917
Doesn't that get turned off on hard mode?
>>339357423
>Given the way it's forced on you
God forbid the game makes you do a semi-challenging puzzle, right?
>>339357827
>he doesn't tweests
>>339358000
>They weren't ultra hyper mind twisters.
>>339349917
I like how they even show it in the right order the 2nd time around. I can't help thinking it started out much more subtle and they had to dumb it down more and more as playtesters couldn't figure it out or something.
>>339350920
It was irritating as a kid but not hard.
I've recently played it on my 3DS and it was nice and smooth.
>>339357667
>You could even go back into old levels in quake 2.
And re-explore them with shitloads of new equipment that you don't yet completely understand, while being affected in various ways via the passage of time that becomes something progressively more controllable? You don't even know what point you're making.
>>339357448
Fuck I remember doing this shit
>>339358043
>God forbid the game makes you do a semi-challenging puzzle, right?
No, not at all, I'm glad the game had the balls to include things that actually reward you for being able to think ahead. It was honestly still an awkward point to actually introduce something like it.
>>339357917
I haven't played ZE, but I love how it's only now that you're admitting this. To people who have played it, tell me, how would it compare to the task of say, doing most of MM's side content?
Puzzles are such an important part of the Zelda series. Shame that Nintendo consistently dumbs them down. The only game with good puzzles after N64 was A Link Between Worlds, which was an amazing game but an exception to the rule
>>339358237
>that you don't yet completely understand
when does this ever happen in zelda?
>>339357737
>mind bending
>>339358542
>it's only now that you're admitting this
What the fuck are you on about?
They're more challenging than the Zelda games. Well excluding the YOU NEED THE POWER, NINTENDO POWER bullshit "puzzles" in Zelda 1 and Zelda 2.
Anyways how difficult the puzzles will be depends on how much of a puzzle whore you are. Some of the puzzles are conventional puzzles put in a game interface, or twists on conventional puzzles. Some also use logic that someone who has done computer programming would be more familiar with.
It's common for many to be of a quality where you need to write shit down, so I think that says something compared to Zelda game puzzles.
>>339358736
In the N64 games, plenty of times. You don't instantly know all the various effects of the ocarina songs and when to use them, what's latchable with the hookshot, what's affected by time, how a given action will affect people's schedules, what you can do with a given mask, even what walls are bomb-able etc. Hell, how you can light shit with arrows and deku sticks is something you are made to discover yourself.
>>339358981
New Zelda still does this, at least in Twilight Princess. If there was a clingable wall you could abuse the fuck out of it with Clawshots.
It was just stuff like the Spinner that was context specific.
>>339358981
Isn't that more of a thing of "not having access to the internet yet and waiting for nintendo power" and us being kids?
I didn't know for the longest time you could kick and shoot at the same time in duke 3D. But that was because I didnt read the manual.
>>339358981
I came from point and click pc adventures so the "adventure" part in zelda always felt a bit dumbed down to me.
>>339358937
>Well excluding the YOU NEED THE POWER, NINTENDO POWER bullshit "puzzles" in Zelda 1 and Zelda 2.
I love that you're explicitly excluding them, as LoZ has proper puzzles that are solvable by thinking about and contemplating them and the environment. The only bullshit mandatory discovery in either is the part in AoL where you have to use the hammer on the forest, otherwise, yes, those are exactly the kinds of puzzles I'm talking about that you are apparently to stupid to realize have actual methods of being clued into.
>i saw the thread yesterday and had nothing better to do than to post the webm i saw in the webm thread and make a stale joke about it
ftfy
>>339359246
You're a goddamn hipster.
Some random fucker in a cave on the other side of the world telling you to bomb an area is not a compelling puzzle.
>>339359246
Zelda 1 and 2 had the big advantage to not have unskipable cutscenes that spell out the puzzle's solution for you already so it turns into simple pattern recognition for babies.
Did anyone ever create a mod for any 3D zelda game that removes all those repeating cutscenes for every puzzle room? Would probably make them way more enjoyable.
>>339359369
Some fucker in your pocket exactly telling you what to do in the room you're standing after the camera painfully lingered on the "puzzle" solution for 30 seconds isnt either.
What game has the best puzzles?
My vote goes to The Secret World. Its puzzles are leagues ahead of even most puzzle games
>>339359472
>muh red herrings
NINTENDO POWER walls are not puzzles.
>>339359182
>Isn't that more of a thing of "not having access to the internet yet and waiting for nintendo power" and us being kids?
No, this is exactly the quality that makes exploration in Zelda interesting, how you come up with ways of experimenting with world interaction and. I get the impression that most of what I'd consider the meat of the games to be stuff that, to you is "how would you know that without looking up a guide"? I generally didn't look shit up, because the meta problem of searching through the game's possibilities is the core of Zelda and where the best and most clever aspects of it present themselves.
>>339349917
This game came out when I was pretty young, and solving the puzzles actually punished me for my lack of observational skills.
And I know to most of the people here its obvious as fuck but it's really not when you're a kid.
>>339354158
I Always wondered, what do you think goes through the mind of these type of people when they see or meet an actual practirionar of swordmanship?
>>339359546
Well no. They're cryptic riddles, much more adventureish.
I liked zelda better when it wasn't full of playskool type "puzzles" that are just repeating what the cutscene just told you.
>>339357448
>astroboy
need to rewatch the 2000 remake
>>339359712
Speak for yourself.
I got lost in oracle of ages and never finished the game because I didnt find subrosa or got stuck at some point and didnt know where to go next.
>>339359732
Cryptic riddles so you could get stuck and call that phone number written on the back for a low, low price per minute.
Stop trying to compare them to the modern games. Stop your red herring shit.
>>339349917
>Those camera movements
Christ. Were those in the original?
>>339359873
>Cryptic riddles so you could get stuck and call that phone number written on the back for a low, low price per minute.
Thats not how it worked. You just knew someone who had nintendo power
>>339359780
Wow, were you in mensa youth, too?
>>339359892
Yeah, in every 3D zelda since OoT.
Someone should do a compilation,
>>339359975
I just got link to the past and links awakening first.
The problem with 3D zeldas really is the tedious cutscenes. They create a weird sense of impatience because they take away control from you so often, so you just start zoning out when you are a kid.
It would be better if they just got rid of the cutscenes alltogether. They add nothing of value.
http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/960633-the-legend-of-zelda-skyward-sword/54969002?page=1
>Zelda's roots are in the puzzle genre, and this new game must follow this model.
:^)
>>339360079
I agree that the top down zeldas were way more challenging in terms of puzzles
Also really hard to keep track of where things are without forming that mental map. By design limitations, I think, the 3d zeldas have to have less complicated maps and therefore a lot more easier to navigate.
>>339360079
>Tedious cutscenes
They have medications for your condition Arin. Stop forcing your impatience on us.
>>339360219
You're an idiot. You'd almost immediately get the compass and the map in each dungeon.
>>339360219
I think the concept of puzzles in zelda was lost in translation somewhen during the jump to 3D.
The 2D games tried to emulate indiana jones like temple riddles with their technological means and the 3D zeldas just tried to emulate the 2D puzzles in 3D, without realizing they could go more ambitious or appropriate for 3D.
In the end it became weird, because 3D zeldas have a much slower pace than 2D zelda. So a block puzzle that would take you 20 seconds in the original already has 30 seconds of mandatory cutscenes of the camera panning over the room, turning a little distraction from fighting and dungeon crawling into a chore.
>>339360302
No, you. Those games were hard.
>>339360291
Look at that shit in the webm.
You don't need the camera to awkwardly pan over every fucking object you need to hit with your boomerang and then have some exposition fairy spell it out for you again. Have a little restraint.
>>339360339
Do you know any games that the 3d zeldas could have learned from?
>>339349917
> complaining about last dungeon difficulty in the easiest Zelda
Anon, pls
Look at SS from Ancient Cistern onwards
TP from Lakebed onwards
MM from Snowhead onwards
OoT from Jabu Jabu onwards
If you want reasonable difficulty in an easy series. WW is more a freak accident where the harder temples don't exist due to it being a rushed piece of crap.
>>339359873
>>339359546
I love this. Zeruda puzzles are for babies, except for the ones that are challenging, which are just bullshit that don't count, great.
>>339359732
Agreed, this is what Zelda excels at, but it's lost so much of that and is more and more unwilling to try.
>>339349917
Stuff like this is why Hyrule Warriors is probably the best Zelda game in ages.
LoZ games are designed with a such difficulty curve that even your mom will be able to finish it eventually.
>>339360339
>I think the concept of puzzles in zelda was lost in translation somewhen during the jump to 3D.
No, it wasn't. The 3D games are more mystery and puzzle heavy than the 2D ones are, and specifically have much more optional content that the player isn't expected to do.
Why aren't there more zeldalike games?
>>339360408
Why games?
The 2D zeldas were so popular because they came from trying to express real life concepts in a digital form. The 3D zeldas are trying to express a 2D digital concept in 3D form.
That is the problem. It got mudded up.
They should have taken the same sources they had drawn from with the 2D zeldas and turned it into a appropriate 3D form.
>>339360410
Well, all those games also have the "camera pans over the solution to the puzzle" moments.
It's just that nobody turned them into a webm yet.
>>339360410
TP and SS are both way, way easier than WW
>>339360474
>I like bombing every wall in hyrule
>i think that talking to a guy in another dimension is a compelling puzzle
>these puzzles demonstrate my intellectIf you think I'm referring to the collective of Zelda 1 and Zelda 2, you need to learn how to read.I am only referring to blatant NINTENDO POWER moments. If you believe these don't exist, then you're just being an obstinate hipster.
>>339360631
Because the formula is broken like shit and they only sell because of brand power.
The games themselves are utterly medicore since after OoT and thats why the core formula wont work with other brands.
>>339360814
I called the nintendo hotline for a block shoving puzzle in the desert temple in lttp.
I was a dense kid.
>>339360819
Then why not make more games like OoT?
Okami did it well.
>>339360885
Okami sold poorly.
If anything dark souls is the closest thing to a proper 3D zelda 1. I know people here get butthurt about that fact, but it's true.
>>339360939
Nah, Dark Souls is a 3D castlevania more than anything
>>339360687
>muh cameras
You're over exaggerating Arin. These do not happen for everything. Many of the cutscenes aren't a "pan over to the solution moment." A cutscene of the ghosts in the forest temple peacing the scene is not hand holding.
Usually the panning happens for the first time a player encounters an element too. This is equivalent to encountering an oddly colored block in a classiczelda, but necessitated by the nature of 3D camers not showing the whole screen at once.
>>339360978
And 2D rpg castlevania was a spin on zelda 2.
>>339361182
which isn't zelda 1, yes
>>339358160
>blaming playtesters
Nintendo isn't Valve. They actually have playtesters who are good at video games. Here's a video from a Super Play included in NSMBU where you get to watch Mario Club Co., Ltd. members play.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd2T-QjRQPk
>>339362094
>Nintendo isn't Valve.
And I will forever be thankful for that.
>>339362094
Jesus christ
>>339360819
The formula is fine, it's just very hard to pull off. You need incredibly tight level design for every dungeon, tight level design of a different type for the overworld and a huge amount of effort and detail put into everything.
>>339362573
>You need incredibly tight level design for every dungeon, tight level design of a different type for the overworld
Which zelda hasnt had since OoT.
Maybe it's just a shit formula.
Every game needs tight level design.
>>339360759
Absolutely untrue. Nothing in WW comes close to the mansion, alone, nor the Ancient Cistern
>>339362901
wut.
The only good dungeon in OoT was shadow temple, the fuck are you smoking.
>>339362901
>Every game needs tight level design.
Not to the degree Zelda does though. In Zelda, all the elements have to come together completely, with little margin for screwups. That's why you don't see indies doing it in general, the level of planning involved is crazy. Both level based and 'open world sandbox' games can get away with sloppier shit.
>>339362924
Ancient Cistern is literally a theme park ride of a dungeon, there is zero difficulty in it except the boss, which can be tricky once and then never again. The Mansion is alright thanks to ice physics and all that, but still around the level of something like Earth Temple and the rest of the game is pisseasy due to autoaim combat and no overworld.
>>339363074
This is true for every genre.
That's why doom 2 is a better fps than blood 2 for example.
>>339363120
>>339362924
The mansion is literally a frozen sokoban.
>>339363141
>This is true for every genre.
It really is not. FPS you can design level by level. In Zelda you have to consider how any given possible interaction could possibly affect the game at any point it can be accessed, which in the 64 games in particular is ridiculously complicated. That isn't even considering how refined the games are aesthetically, which is also tied up with everything else in ways very few games even approach.
>>339363120
I really liked ancient cistern tho. It might not be really challenging, but the pacing was really good, the theme wasn't rehashed, aesthetics were great, there was variety of situations, water segments weren't tedious, boss was boss.
Why is master's quest so good?
Why couldn't they remix TP too?
>>339363437
It looks absolutely fantastic and the boss is for sure one of the best in the series, but I was incredibly disappointed by how easy and on rails it was. You literally make a tour around the place and you're done.
>>339363515
Because that would take more work than an aussie shovelware port studio could do
>>339363120
>Wind Waker is literally a theme park ride of a game, there is zero difficulty in it
FTFYMNYDEHTTM
>>339363120
>Earth Temple
You mean the most linear dungeon in any Zelda game..?
It's even more linear than the Deku Tree
>>339349917
Truly a game for all ages. Not just children, not just men!
>>339363830
Uh which Earth Temple are we talking about?
Because it's the shittiest dungeon in Wind Waker.
>>339362901
The formula is just a fairly low difficulty overworld with light combat and puzzles, alternating with higher difficulty dungeons containing more challenging combat, puzzles and navigation, ending with a boss. As the game progresses you find items that unlock new options in combat, puzzle solving and exploration.
The formula is fine. Plenty of great games use the Zelda formula. It's absolutely perfect at creating that back and forth between stress and relaxation that makes games really immersive, as well as giving a real sense of growth an development as the game goes on. It just takes a lot of effort to pull off well.
>>339349917
Why is pacing in Zelda games so horrifically bad and did any of them have actually demanding spatial stuff?
>>339363882
I assume the one in Wind Waker? Where the aesthetics are all Shadow Temple-y?
It feels like it should have been in the first half of the game
>>339363754
Wind Waker isn't remotely as linear as TP or SS though
TP and to a much larger extent SS completely lack an overworld
I always saw zelda as a series that makes you "feel" smart and rewards you for completing simple tasks.
I think it's the reason why it's so popular with gamer girls and casuals. The games are constantly treating you like a retard.
I wish Zelda would go back to the NES style formula and become about exploration and secrets. Doesn't need to be difficult, just something different than "go west you retard" "shoot an arrow in the eyeball nigger".
>>339364115
Yes, it is. The dungeons are ruthlessly linear. The story is ruthlessly linear. The content is reused, railroading you in to even more linear environments since you know the layout.
Apart from the Triforce hunt (that was so SHIT they had to cut it down on the re-release) the game is linear as fuck, with very little side content. Compared to TP or SS, it's absolutely the most linear and easy Zelda.
>>339363946
name of the game? Seems familiar but can´t remember and "ug2 first person shooter" doesn't give anything
>>339364445
That's bullshit. TP has one (1) sidequest that isn't a shitty collectathon, essentially no side areas at all in the world. SS is even worse, where even the "overworld" is these minidungeons and the sky is completely empty of anything interesting. WW has at least the semblance of picking and choosing what to do in the story in the later half, too.
>>339364445
>The content is reused, railroading you in to even more linear environments since you know the layout.
not that anon, but what in WW gets reused?
>>339350920
People only think this dungeon is "hard" because they tend to overlook the kinda well hidden key at the very bottom. That's why they literally show you that it's there in the remake.
You know I'm right.
I always thought this part was weird. Why do they make the solution so clear?
>>339355075
But what if you're Egoraptor?
>>339364958
Doesn't it open the way back out? I'm guessing that playtesters tended to walk all the way back out through Hyrule, or something.
>>339364845
the ocean:^)
>>339364501
Unreal 1
I was just wondering whether there's anything in Zelda games that comes close to Nali temple in Unreal.
>>339349917
top kek
at least it's not like skyward sword where it's even worse
>>339365084
thanks for reminding me how much I hated unreal.
>>339349917
around 13 years ago I felt so insulted by this "puzzle" that I stopped playing the game. Only to finish it over a year later.
That's where I started complaining zelda games were fucking easy.
and nothing like Alink to the past and the original legend of zelda
>>339365196
Well, if you hate outstanding level design, feel free.
>>339353632
>Enter room
>First thing I notice is that the water is actually reflecting Link
>Go past the little island
>Reflection gone, look back
>Red eyes under the death tree
Shit was cash.
>>339357448
That puzzle in the hero cave where you were supposed to use the cane to fill in the last space with a blue block.
FUCK YOU CAPCOM!
>>339353732
It fades into a regular room as soon as Dark Link dies.
That whole section is just weird and out of place because Water Temple isn't about illusions or magic.
>>339349917
What a goddamn shame dark souls perfected the zelda formula.
If Nintendo stayed with the dark tone if Majoras mask we would've gotten better games.
