60 vs 30
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You are currently reading a thread in /v/ - Video Games
You are currently reading a thread in /v/ - Video Games
So I'm making a video game right now. It's an RPG based on politics more than action, but I've run into some struggles running the simulation while keeping a smooth 60 fps. My question is: If a game that doesn't rely on 60 fps for precision or anything is locked to 30 fps, would that be a dealbreaker for you?
You should not be locked to a specific frame rate. It's fucking 2016.
>>339154530
Optimize your shit game and don't do retarded shit like syncing animations or physics to a fixed framerate.
Also post screens
>>339154967
>don't do retarded shit like syncing animations or physics to a fixed framerate
What if the game doesn't rely on them at all? Is the extra effort to make them framerate independent really worth it in that case? Did anybody care about framerate in visual novels or oldschool turn-based RPGs?
At the very least try to make it run on your set up at a stable framerate as close to 60 as possible. Having a 50fps game isnt super uncommon with smaller studios. The important thing is to not lock your game to work only at a specific framerate, so that people can run it at higher/lower amounts as needed for their own hardware.
If it's not action based I don't care as long as it's still smooth
I can tolerate this if a game uses a lot of different subsystems interacting with each other, like DF, Paradox games or Rimworld, but your game is most likely shit and you can't optimize at all.
>>339154530
FPS drops are annoying, if you can a garantee there wont be any at 30, then do it, but just keep your word
>>339154530
unless your game happens to be very action oriented, a stable 30 fps is great.
Would you rather the game run at 60fps, or have more complex background simulation stuff running?
Basically there are certain events in the game that trigger background simulations to determine the outcome of political decisions and events, and I don't think I'm smart enough to code those in a way to keep the framerate from dropping and still have the simulation finish in time. I could simplify the simulation and keep it at 60fps, or lock it at 30 and keep the game from having annoying fps drops in those situations.
Just fucking keep it stable, that's all.
>>339156879
Is it like Democracy?
If you're having troubles keeping a smooth 60fps then it's probably indicative in other problems. Locking it at 30fps is not solving them, it's just pretending they aren't there.
>>339157009
Ah, I had no idea that game existed. Yeah it's like that, but in a non-real-world setting. You're basically the king of a fantasy kingdom, and you have to try and keep your people happy while dealing with the other kingdoms around you. Each kingdom has its own king, with its own personality determined by a random seed at the beginning of the game, so each time you start you have to figure out how to deal with a different batch of foreign kings.
>>339157353
Don't tell me you don't know about Republic The Revolution
>>339157187
>Locking it at 30fps is not solving them, it's just pretending they aren't there.
I am not denying this. The question is, do I spend more time trying to fix them, or will people not care?
>>339157421
I don't know that one either. I'm glad I made this thread, I already have two other games that I need to go study.
>>339157449
I dont
How can you optimize a game, anyway?
>>339157449
Personally, I don't make such a big deal about it, but I'd prefer 60fps whenever possible. If the game doesn't require strict timing, like a turn based game, then 30fps is fine by my books.
>>339154530
Wut are you talking about?
You don't have to fucking work to set a game at a certain fps (excluding optimizing)
In fact, it's more work to lock it at a certain fps
>i'm going to be a special snowflake!
>oh, i had no idea about all those games that went before me
yep its an indie dev
>>339157558
>How can you optimize a game, anyway?
Imagine you have a set of rules the game plays by, and you have to calculate every other player's move after the player makes a decision. You have to run through several calculations and run various algorithms to determine what each other player is going to do. Usually you can easily hide these extensive processes behind a simple pause in gameplay, such as a fading screen or an animation or whatever. But if it's in the middle of something that can't or shouldn't be paused, you have to make sure that this sudden burst of processes doesn't slow down the game.
The problem is when that leads to a pause in gameplay that feels unnatural or broken. If it ever feels like the game is thinking, the immersion is broken, unless you're making a chess simulator. In this case, the only solution is to write the processes in a way that takes less time (which is not always possible, though in my case it's due to me being only a mediocre programmer), or give the processes more time to complete. So a game that would start stuttering at 60fps because of the time the processes need to complete, can run smoothly, all the time, at 30 fps.
That's the issue I'm dealing with right now.
>>339157794
>yep its an indie dev
No because I don't live in San Francisco and my game isn't a platformer, nor is it about lesbians.
>>339154530
All the IE games are 30fps capped.
>>339154530
>>339156879
30 FPS is fine for strategy games. However, it's not a good idea to lock anything to a specific frame rate. That said, a couple questions:
>Do you know what Delta Time is?
>Do you know what VSYNC is?
>What's your hardware (CPU, GPU & RAM)?
>How the fuck is your game more demanding than the un-optimized & exceedingly complex dwarf fortress?
>>339156319
Stop trying to justify sloppy coding.
>>339156319
>>339158892 This x100
>>339158732
>Do you know what Delta Time is?
Yes. This is not what the problem is, because that only helps to keep movement and physics decoupled from framerate.
>Do you know what VSYNC is?
Yes. Also doesn't apply.
>What's your hardware (CPU, GPU & RAM)?
>How the fuck is your game more demanding than the un-optimized & exceedingly complex dwarf fortress?
GPU isn't the issue, I have an i5 quadcore, the game is graphically non-intensive, there is just a LOT of logic done at once, and since I didn't make the engine and source isn't available I can't pinpoint exactly where the bottleneck is. Also my coding is without a doubt worse than the Dwarf Fortress guy's.
>>339158892
I'm not justifying it. Not once did I say that it's okay. The question is should I invest time into fixing it, or if players won't give a shit.
>>339156879
stagger the simulation. for less important systems you can update them at 30 fps, 20, 10, even once is a second is fine for things like AI
Design the gameplay around 30 fps and there are no issues, the Souls series does this and it's phenomenal. The only shitters who will care are PC gamers.
>>339159381
PC Gamers care because not everyone has the same hardware.
>>339154530
>running the simulation
Optimise your shit, then. If you're having drops on the game logic at this point, by the time you're done it will run at 5 FPS.
>>339159169
Is your game turned based or concurrent?
>>339154530
Put the game on PS4 or Xbox One only if you're going for 30 fps
>>339159686
>Is your game turned based or concurrent?
If it was turn based there wouldn't be a problem either. It's concurrent and a lot of simulation stuff has to be done on the fly.
>>339154530
logic can run at 20~30fps (ticks per second)
rendering/animation at 60fps (animation interpolated)
not that much rocket science
>>339157449
Don't lock it so that those with good system can keep up.
Matter of fact, here's the #1 tip for any devs. If you have conflicting opinion of something, give the players the choice! Leave them all in as options that can be toggled.
pic unrelated
>>339160375
You say this like logic and rendering can just easily be decoupled like that. If I could set my logic to 30fps I would, but the fact is that large processes slow everything down.
>>339154530
Yes, absolutely.
At some point, processing power will be sufficient such that we will be able to run the simulation at 60 FPS. At this point, people will be pretty bummed that they can't. How would you feel if Crysis was limited to 45FPS/720p?
Also, what the fuck kind of politics simulation requires so much power that even with the latest processors you cannot reasonably expect to achieve 60 frames? Or is this just incredibly shittily optimized?
Or, even more realistically, is this just an entirely hypothetical question
>>339160717
...You know, I'm pretty sure almost every game decouples rendering and simulation
Case in point, tickrate - it doesn't have to match framerate unless your game is incredibly poorly coded. Most players will accept a little hitching in the sim so long as the game is still pretty much playable.
Also, what the fuck kind of engine are you using, because it sure doesn't sound like Unity or UE4.
>>339161068
Game Maker
>>339161436
I see.
In this case, what the fuck kind of game maker game are you making where frame rate is an issue? How does a politics RPG even work, and why is it so processing-intensive?
>>339157523
you really need to do your research before you start making games, man
Seriously, 30 FPS is literally fine for the type of the game you're making. Don't listen to fags that say you otherwise.
>>339161750
It's a shitload of conditionals coupled with pathfinding and background events. As I've made this thread though I've realised I may be trying to hard to make it "realistic" instead of fun. I'm not even anywhere close to being done with the game yet and already the simulation is causing framerate issues. I am going to go back and rethink the logic and my approach to the simulation, break it up into smaller bits that can be run in the background in series, and also stop being so fucking autistic about the "realism". It's less of a 30 vs 60 fps problem and more of a "If I'm having these issues now, they'll just get way worse later" problem.
>>339162123
I dunno man, so many games have been made and so many game ideas have been done before, I don't know if I'd have an advantage going back and looking at them instead of just making the game that I want to make.
>>339154530
>locked to 30 fps
into the garbage it goes.
60 FPS or quit game development altogether.
>>339158302
>nor is it about lesbians.
FUCKING DROPPED
>>339158732
Company of Heroes feels choppy as fuck at 30 fps
>>339160134
If the game is concurrent than what is the problem? Stagger your simulations out. IE run some systems every frame, every 10 frames, etc.
Making a que would be a good idea. Each player, NPC or PC would have their own que. When another player ( NPC or PC ) does something and NPC AI needs to react the info is sent to the que. A master que could be made to increase performance. The master que would send items to each player que.
You could also make a ranking system that prioritizes certain events ( it is a political game, right? ). IE war would be more important than if Joey now Jane can use the women's bathroom. You could take this a step further and set simulation cycle speeds based on what's happening. If you combine this with both the master que and player ques you'll be golden ponyboy.
Think of your CPU as the bureaucratic system and your simulations as the cogs within the system.
Hope this helps OP.
>>339162453
Wait.
You're running pathfinding for characters the player can't see in a world where major structural change will be exclusively scripted or minor? Why aren't you just putting them on rails outside of visible range? Why aren't you abstracting some of this stuff?
Remember, there really isn't much point finely simulating stuff the player can't see - a rough approximation will likely be enough to appease almost anybody. Case in point, Radiant AI.
>>339163153
>Why aren't you just putting them on rails outside of visible range? Why aren't you abstracting some of this stuff?
Because I apparently am retarded. You are absolutely right, and re-thinking my process I have made some really stupid choices in my simulation to make it "realistic". I need to go back to the drawing board.
