>“It refers to people within the company who can’t imagine anything other than their own view of Final Fantasy. Since the root is a strong self-affirmation, one’s own view of Final Fantasy takes more priority than the team’s success. If that view of Final Fantasy isn’t fulfilled, then they’re convinced that it’s bad for Final Fantasy. They think, ‘Since Final Fantasy is a special team, then we are also special because we are making it. When the new Final Fantasy comes out, everybody is going to be so into it.’ But that’s not the reality of the situation, is it?”
>“At this point,” Tabata said, “if the series didn’t modernize, I think it could’ve been done for.”
https://archive.is/9zGj6
>Modernization
It's gonna be shit.
SE is banking so much on this game, I'm almost worried for them.
>>338629486
BUT MAI WAIFU IS PERFECT! RIKE A ROSE!
RAITONINGU = FINARU FANTASY
>>338629931
kek I actually agree with Tabata. Final Fantasy had to change, especially it's combat system that only a few fags liked. I am glad that it's finally real time. Other than that everything that is FF is there but with added glare, and what I don't get is how some minorities say they don't like the characters when they haven't even played the game. FF has always been about it's narrative and character development.
>“if the series didn’t modernize, I think it could’ve been done for.”
Yeah, because it's not like your most recent iterations are regarded as huge steps down from classic titles or anything.
SE is so far up their own asses it's amazing they're still around.
I can't wait to see how they butcher 7.
>“At this point,” Tabata said, “if the series didn’t modernize, I think it could’ve been done for.”
it's true though. If a company put out FFVII these days it would be indie-shit. People would complain about the garbage graphics, monotonous grinding, absurd random encounter bullshit, and boring combat.
>>338629486
So he's saying people are wrong to have a vision for the franchise and should just do whatever sells?
As if I needed anymore reason to be turned off by FFXV and Tabata
>>338630315
The real time combat is ass though.
>>338630504
If any of /v/'s favorite games were released today it would be considered shit. Times have changed.
>>338630452
>Yeah, because it's not like your most recent iterations are regarded as huge steps down from classic titles or anything.
I think the idea was that the teams were trying to emulate the end products of the previous FF games instead of emulating their design processes. So they would do things or put things in the game just because that's what Final Fantasy is, without nderstanding why those decisions were made in the first place. That's why the magic was gone.
>>338630504
>it's true though. If a company put out FFVII these days it would be indie-shit. People would complain about the garbage graphics, monotonous grinding, absurd random encounter bullshit, and boring combat.
This. People were complaining about that shit for AGES. In fact, Japanese "RPG" games in the West were known as Light RPGs and grinding was universally hatred. The only reason it's still there is because a few Japs already got used to that shit and SE refused to alienate that portion of the market. And it also artificially lengthens the game. NOBODY who I know and has played FF has ever mentioned the combat, from the casual to the core nobody has ever liked the turn base combat, it was just something that was there which needed to be put up with. Everyone that I knew was there for the Story and Characters.
>>338630846
KH2 FM
Still has better gameplay than any other ARPG ever
Including FFXV obviously
>>338629486
>“It refers to people within the company who can’t imagine anything other than their own view of Final Fantasy
Well that explains the mess that was XIII
>>338629486
This is the first thing I thought of when I saw the dude at the grill.
I think everyone pretty much agrees that the combat is fucking awful. My three normie friends hated it and thought it was too easy.
I can't believe SE hired that fat faggot from IGN to host the FF15 presentation.
>>338631297
Oh no a man with a vision
Better just do what our focus groups tell us
Look at Half Life 2
>>338630598
No, you illiterate retard. He's saying that instead of trying to make an interesting game, some elements of SE (read: Toriyama and his enablers) were just pushing their personal likes and nostalgia like they were the essence of everything FF and then expected the public to love it just because it had the FF name on it.
>>338629486
I'm pretty sure Tabata was hit by the disease hardest when he wanted to cater to old men with bad hand-eye coordination.
>>338629486
>we wanted the open world audience
>>338631212
combining materia in FFVII is what I lived for
I mean I love VII's cast but what other game lets you combine magic in such a way as to chain KOTR infinitely?
>>338631217
KH2 FM has some pretty sick combat but some of the worst level design I've ever experienced in a video game. This has nothing to do with anything but I just wanted to get that off my chest.
>>338631472
>I want to lick Lightning's armpits
>vision
Kill yourself, Toriyama.
>>338631482
So nobody is allowed to have any idea, it has to be approved by the suits first, gotcha
Funny how most of my favorite games worked exactly the other way around
>>338631317
This is one of the basic lessons in game design, how they didn't know this, especially for a veteran company with an already established franchise is beyond me. It's usually the producers job to let the team know what the director want and what should be focused on, I don't think there were any communication from these teams at all. Game companies that have over 100 people are really hard to keep up with the director's original design, something always gets changed.
>>338631472
you're being defensve but that game was garbage
>>338631651
>>338631676
Fuck, meant to quote >>338631297
>>338631676
You're right, I can only hope the director's decision to have Kazuhira Miller making burgers makes it into the final product.
>>338631624
Level design was a huge improvement
They got rid of the boring platforming and had fast transitions from fight to fight
>>338631651
>>338631710
At least he had a personality and a driving force
Tabata is the guy who was so beta he let his husbando's game get hijacked by marketing
>>338631863
Best audio tapes in MGSV
>>338631934
>At least he had a personality and a driving force
Who gives a shit about how passionate the dude is if he's going to serve up garbage like XIII?
>>338629486
>modernize
Oh, so it'll be piss-easy and focus more on looking nice than being a deep, diverse game.
Good to know I can safely skip thisuntil I can pirate on PC.
>>338631667
Literally everyone hated 10 years of Lightning spinoffs, which existed only to cynically emulate FFVII and nothing else. Your muh suits whining is a decade late.
>>338632139
this is an 18+ board
>>338632139
I wish people like you made actual arguments
enjoy your (you)
>>338631317
>Kaz didn't call them Big Boss Burgers
What a cock up
>>338632139
(you)
>game journalist doing what he should be doing and reporting an interview from a foreign gayming magazine.
>I WON'T GIB VIEWS TO KOTAKU NO MATTUR WUT I H9 DEM
KEK, that is just pathetic
>>338632067
Because it means we don't end up with design by committee games you idiot
>>338632259
13 million copies sold disagree
Besides I loved, stop this everyone meme
>>338631934
You think older FFs never had playtesters or something?
>>338632428
/v/ doesnt support ANY gaming journalism. If you dont pastebin a link, you'll get shit on until you do
>>338632428
Spotted the newcuck Tumblrina. Discuss the interview or fuck off.
XIII XIII_2 XIII_3
>>338632284
Actual arguments are often ignored. And how is that not an actual argument? "Modernization" means "make it easy enough for everyone so it'll sell 8 million copies" and if literally any other publisher came out and said "We are going to modernize this franchise that's been around for decades" they'd get fucking crucified for it. To modernize a game means to make it look and play like a movie, that's what modern players think makes a good game and those are the games that get the biggest response and most praise.
Did you play either of the demos? The combat was okay, but it just didn't "feel" like FF, it felt too much like the myriad of other ARPGs we've had in recent memory. It was too easy.
I'm not sure what he's talking about specifically.
FF constantly changes up its core gameplay with every iteration. But the problem was that the direction the games have been going in since 10 have been shit. Some really bad directors and execs in charge making bad decisions. Poor design choices.
>>338632530
They were the vision of Sakaguchi first and Kitase later, not made to appeal to everyone
It's callef Final Fantasy precisely because Guchi just made his dream game and he believed it would have been Square's last game unless a miracle happened
And it was a success because a team with nothing to lose made the game they wanted, the only way they wanted, Tabata saying those words goes against everything Final Fantasy stands for
>>338632498
>Because it means we don't end up with design by committee games you idiot
but the garbage that was XIII is the REASON that design-by-committee games, XIII-2, XIII-3 and XIV were made the way they were
If the fuckup hadnt fucked up, pandering and DLC wouldnt be so off the rails right now.
>>338629486
This is one of the reasons I'm actually kind of glad Nomura's changing the FFVII combat. They've been saying since the beginning that the Remake would have a lot more ground to cover and as a result, they're implementing what they feel works for their newer game instead of just keeping it the same because nostalgia.
>>338632498
XIII is the ur example of design by committee, you cretin. It didn't even have its own main character - Toriyama literally just asked for a female Cloud.
>13 million
Nevermind, you're too deluded to talk to.
According to Tabata, there’s been negative feedback for Final Fantasy XV, such as, for example, folks not being happy with the character choices and whatnot. Of course, Tabata knew that Final Fantasy was a series with a lot of history, but felt it was important to make changes.
“Around that time, I realized that among fans as well, there are people who’ve caught FF disease,” Tabata said.
AM I WRONG?
NO, THE FANS ARE WRONG
>>338632840
>And how is that not an actual argument
>Oh, so it'll be piss-easy and focus more on looking nice than being a deep, diverse game.
You made something up to dismiss, and then dismissed it. A strawman, if you will. That's not an 'actual' argument
>>338632879
No. If you're going to remake a game, then remake it as it was, there's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel. That's what fans are going to expect, you can modernize your new titles all you want. The entire project and game are driven by nostalgia, it's a fucking remake.
>>338629486
I started reading this quote thinking he was going tp be discussing how they only seem to make FF games anymore and nothing else. I was disappointed.
>>338629486
>“if the series didn’t modernize
But hasn't the series been trying to 'Modernize' since VII? I recall them drumming up how new and special XIII's system was going to be and look what happened there. Heare that XIII-2 and 3 improved though.
>>338629486
Sounds like what happened with Project Titan
>>338633084
>there's absolutely no reason to reinvent the wheel
unless that wheel is 20 years old
>>338632868
But that's exactly his point. At some point, SE stopped asking "what do we want to achieve?" and instead started just awkwardly emulating and copying various "obligatory" FF stuff that both them and some of their fans kept demanding.
Did they finally realize letting one make make 3 waifu games for himself was a mistake? Because that pretty much sums up what was wrong with 13 and its sequels, the story made no sense to everyone but the director.
>>338632989
There are a lot of things I don't like about 15 but the cast is pretty dull and rubs me the wrong way. FF8 had an all "normal" human cast and it was far more exciting than what we have here, hell they even dress every single one in flat black clothing to make them as absolutely boring as possible.
Where is the style?
>>338630074
10 years of development anon, i wonder if SE will ever come out with the numbers on how much money they actually threw at this game over the years.
>>338632872
No
XIII was a success
XIV was the bomb that hurt SE so much they needed the XIII sequels and ARR
>>338633305
They're still doing that
That's what Versus XIII was before Tabata happened
>>338633021
Modernization often means exactly that, look at the Doom reboot. I'm not just making this shit up, look at recent trends in sales. Modern games are games that try to emulate the experience of watching a film, those are games that generally sell well and get the most praise and attention from fans and critics.
But go ahead and dismiss this post because you don't agree with it.
Remember
This is sthe same company that figured out after a 3DS game that the West liked JRPGs
And the same company that fucked over Star Ocean 4 by trying to catch two hares at once.
>>338632840
You didn't make an argument. And second of all, that's just a generalization, not all games today are what you made them out to be. Plenty of examples of games out there are good and highly praised. Second, the combat isn't what makes FF "feel" like FF, it has always been it's aesthetics, world, story and most of all, characters. It seems like you are one those person that are mad just because the combat system has been changed. Now, whether or not it's Real Time is better than other games, is another debate.
Don't give two shits until they announce the PC port
If they're hurting so much for money and need it so desperately to sell, they shouldn't pretend like PS4 is the only thing that exists just to fellate Sony
>>338632950
Her backstory is a homage to Cloud, but they're nothing alike
>>338633485
The silly thing is that FF14 shouldn't have been a failure in the first place, they clearly either outsourced it or gave it to some interns who had never played a MMO in their life. At that point they had been running FF11 for almost a decade, a highly successful MMO that was crafted with mountains of love and care. Then you get FF14 that looks cheap, has completely broken mechanics, and actively goes against 10 years of solid MMO design and knowledge that they should have had.
Who knows what goes on in there.
>>338633713
Toriyama asked Nomura to design him a character who was a female Cloud. That design with minimal modifications went on to become Lightning.
>>338633290
Wheels haven't changed much in thousands of years in terms of functionality, let alone the last 20.
If you want to reinvent the wheel, don't do it with a remake. I don't think anyone wanted the OoT3D remake to "modernize" and have Navi stop you every ten feet or to replace the combat with QTEs and scripted animations.
Tabata is turning FF into mediocre AAA open-world trash. "Modernize" is not a good thing when modern games suck.
>>338633485
>XIII was a success
XIII had to pander out the ass with -2 and -3 to make up numbers. It was supposed to be the new VII for them and pissed off so many people that they added fucking pokemon into the next game. XIV being shit dragged them down enough to open people's eyes. Neither were a success
>>338630315
ATB and turn based are both fine, though.
Literally the two most popular and well loved games in the franchise are ATB and turn based.
And no, Versus hardly retains anything of FF aside from the presence of classic monsters.
It's still running off of XIII's shitty compilation-wide lore to an extent, too.
Final Fantasy is dead.
>>338633779
It was rushed
>>338633290
Maybe you should learn what reinvent means.
>>338633145
The only games that started to "modernize" if you want to call it that, was FFX which was linear as fuck, but actually had a good turn base system for what it was. After that, it was downhill.
>>338633672
Sure, whatever you say, champ. Continue to dismiss and ignore because you don't like what you're reading. Enjoy your modernized FF.
>>338633578
Versus wasn't a mainline title, so not really. It was literally conceived to be the opposite of XIII and its approach.
>>338633878
No, he wanted a lean girl with skinny legs and a very athletic build
And Nomura drew a sketch of her and Toriyama loved it
He didn't ask for femCloud
>>338633579
>Modernization often means
so you're making it up. The two games I think of from Tabata are Agito and XV. Neither of these games skimp on details for visuals. It looks that way, at least for XV
>>338632868
>Tabata saying those words goes against everything Final Fantasy stands for
It's the exact opposite, though; Tabata's saying that the devs aren't making a game that they feel works for a particular individual title, but instead are focused so hard on keeping it within their narrow view of what "FF" is supposed to be.
They aren't making a game they want to make, they're making "Final Fantasy [x], but with -this- instead of -that-" They are actively trying not to innovate because they're married to their memories of the games they played before.
Nomura and Tabata are about the only one at SE that has the right idea. Their games are an extreme case of mileage may vary (Nomura slightly less so) but they have the right idea.
>>338633084
They've gone on record saying that they weren't interested in appealing to nostalgia because that game exists on ten fucking platforms and anyone feeling nostalgic can play it virtually anywhere. It would be a complete waste of time and they're not breaking the bank making this Remake if they aren't allowed to try new shit.
They don't want to make the same game again. They want to revisit FFVII's universe and story from a new angle, and in the process, using a gameplay system they feel works for this new title.
Imagine if you were in their shoes and someone told you to work feverishly to make the same classic game you made 20 years ago "but better." You'd want to punch that little prick in the face, and they would entirely deserve it.
>>338633349
Not to mention that there was barely any exposition told to the player, you had to fucking read it all. Good example of bad story telling.
>hurrrr if we didnt change wat everyone loved and made ff13, the series would be dead hurrrrrr
Jesus
>>338633357
The problem with the main characters of 15 is that they are a product of two things
1.the times of their creation
2.japanese culture
1. The character designs have been the same since the 2000's where wearing all black and leather like the matrix was cool. and people liked the backstreet boys. They never updated the design
2. The characters are all male and cute and have typical anime trope like personalities to appeal to the female fans, which in japan are the ones keeping otaku culture alive.
my thoughts at least
>>338633892
XV is as open world as I-IX were.
>>338633357
Oh please, just admit you are one of those waifu fucktard and get it over with.
>>338633940
10 and 8 were fucking terrible
>>338633672
>Combat was too easy and didn't feel like FF
>Modernization often means a dumbed-down game, plenty of examples available including other FF games
>N-N-No argument! How DARE you be skeptical!
Just stop, accept the fact that some people don't like the direction this game is headed.
>>338634073
Do you know what "approach"?
Let me tell you
The high fantasy approach
XIII is set in a futuristic utopia, VsXIII in a realistic setting, XIII had Cocoon and Pulse, VsXIII has one earth-like planet with various nations fighting, XIII is off-the-wall crazy, VsXIII is a fantasy based on reality
>>338629486
>if the series didn’t modernize, I think it could’ve been done for
>make fantasy series
>remove the fantasy
No
>>338634120
Aka they want to ruin a classic because they are bored of their jobs. They should be fired
>>338633940
the most successful games then aren't going the same type of games as the most successful games now. turn-based rpgs have either taken a nose-dive as of late, or just lacked diversity, banking so heavily on story however good story writing is really hard to achieve on the levels of FF6 and 7. because of this, the niche turn-based rpg fandom has diminished significantly
>>338633616
And who also censored a game before it came to the west
>>338633917
It sold over 7.5 million copies
It did very well
XIII were just icing on the cake like X-2 was
>>338634105
http://www.1up.com/news/ffxiii-interview
>When I asked Mr. Nomura to design this character, I requested someone like a female version of Cloud from FFVII.
Now drop your delusions.
>>338633940
>It's still running off of XIII's shitty compilation-wide lore to an extent, too.
You mean the same stupid fucking lore about crystals since FF1? Ok, bro.
>>338634105
>Toriyama wanted Lightning to be a type of female character previously unseen in Final Fantasy games, one with an athlete's body and a less feminine nature.[29][30] His guideline to Nomura was to make her strong, beautiful, and "like a female version of Cloud [Strife] from [Final Fantasy VII]".[2][29] Commenting on the resemblance, Toriyama stated that the similarities between the characters only extend to their cold personalities and their military backgrounds, and that otherwise "Lightning really [is] her own person."[31] Nomura compared the two shortly before the Japanese release of Lightning Returns, saying that he had "desired for her to be carefully developed and loved for a long time, like Cloud."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(Final_Fantasy)
She was literally designed to be female Cloud, but just different enough that Toriyama could feel like she was her own character.
>>338631212
>grinding
>ff7
>or any ff
The only FFs that need grinding at all are 1 and 2. Every single one of the rest can be done either just fighting what you encounter or running and doing the absolute minimum of encounters. They are extremely easy games, and yet the idea that you have to grind to play any of them is still spread today and I'll never fucking understand it.
Yeah sure you need to grind if you're some 100% autist, but if you play like that you should be expecting that out of anygame you play anyway and that's your personal choice.
Face it, we won't get a Final Fantasy from Square ever again. FF 13 and 15 might as well not be called Final Fantasy except in name alone. If we're going to get something like it, it's likely to come from a different dev at this point. Unfortunately, that means no chocobos or any of the FF tropes we're use to over the years. This is the game industry we live in today. Where IPs are held hostage by companies no longer using them and we're left to fend for desperate scraps of subpar games, such as overwatch and Uncharted.
>>338634039
No actual rebuttal. Nice.
>>338634120
It's a dick move to tease your fans with a very well built tech demo and then twiddle your fucking thumbs for a decade before giving in and making a full remake, but intentionally fucking it with every modern staple that the fans DIDN'T want.
No one was asking for a remake of FFVII before that tech demo happened. The fact that they gave faithful remakes to III and IV in the meantime makes this so much worse.
SE brought it all on themselves. Fuck SE.
>>338634229
I don't care if every NPC in the game is a dude, having the entire main cast wear solid black outfits is absolutely retarded.
>>338634515
Nice cherrypicking
See >>338634527
She's Cloud the same way Cloud is Terra
>>338630315
>ff is turn based
>its successful and legendary
>ff stops being turned based
>its becomes a shell of its former self and less successful
GEE I WONDER WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED.
>>338633880
>>338633996
you're delusional if you think anyone wants the same game from 20 years ago with HD models. VII's ATB system would look awful. That shit was okay when the poly count is only in the hundreds but having realistic looking people in a 1:1 envirnoment standing around, waiting for a gauge to fill in order to move would look and feel stupid as fuck
Some things simply need to be updated when bringing the world into HD
>>338634784
It's kind of sad when all the newfags really see nothing wrong with games today to where they say that there's nothing to take from the past. I don't agree with remakes, but I do agree with if it isn't broke, dont fix it.
And just because you can't abstract combat of there being two sides doesn't mean the millions who played this games can't. I know you come from a generation where everything must be realistic, but this is precisely why the game industry was not built on realism. If everything followed your narrow field of entertainment, the industry would be a lot worse.
>>338634669
Feel free to find anything that says Cloud was designed to be a male Terra. And considering Cloud was neither cold nor did he have any real military background, Toriyama's comparison makes zero sense.
>>338634451
>It sold over 7.5 million copies
Even I bought XIII, Preordered even. And I remember vividly how quickly new copies became $40 and then $20
SE WANTED XIII to be their new VII but got nothing but complaints and derision. No one was happy with it
>>338634118
Yup, you're right, modern AAA games aren't generally piss-easy with the depth of a puddle. Nope, no one is allowed to criticize the fact that the director wants to modernize the game, because that's not an argument! Never mind the fact that they said about the same thing when making XIII. No one is allowed to make generalizations when generalizations are all you can make because the game isn't out yet. There's a massive precedent for "modernization" to mean "made for a wider audience" so fuck you I'm assuming the worst until I'm shown otherwise.
SE has done nothing in the last decade to make me believe modernization means anything but what it means to most other publishers. I played the demos, I was not impressed. Too easy and seemed like the game was focusing more on looking flashy than anything else. But that's a negative opinion, so I guess it doesn't count?
>>338634784
There are dozens of great JRPG combat systems you can use without going full KH mode. You could fix up the 12 system with the missing mechanics from 11, revisit the X-2 combat, or steal the Grandia battle system like a smart person would.
FF10HD came out a few days ago on PC and people fucking love it still, no one hates turn based combat. Even more is that people LOVED Divinity OS and it's turn based combat was fairly reminiscent of the Grandia combat system.
>>338634624
>DIDN'T want.
Let me let you in on a little secret, way back before you were probably born, when Advent Children was announced SE in an interview has said that for years they have wanted FF's combat to be just like AC, but the technology has never been there.
>>338634672
So it became "a shell of its former self" after FFIII? Because that was the point when the series ditched actual turn-based battle system.
>>338630315
Well, you got the disease too don't you?
>>338634423
Have you considered that maybe turn based games having been dying because of FF's new direction?
Think about it, it's been well over a decade since Squaresoft and Enix had their merger, and that's when shit started going wildly out of control. We haven't had anything resembling a traditional FF in the mainline since fucking X-2.
Whether you like it or not, FF has been for a long time the first thing to come to mind when westerners think JRPGs. The series hasn't been itself for so long, of course they think turn based is old and dead. It's all SE's doing.
>>338634521
Crystals barely have shit to do with XIII's lore, despite the name of the compilation and all the pretty crystal imagery they use.
It's more about their gods and concepts, which sometimes involve turning people intro crystals. That have no real mystical properties aside from kindasorta preserving whatever's been crystallized.
>>338635260
>but the technology has never been there.
This is hilarious to say when shit like DMC and Ninja Gaiden came out in that era.
>>338635064
the old final fantasy games were never loved for their combat systems, it was always the world characters story and music that made it popular
>>338634120
Well, if fans want and expect a faithful remake and don't get one, why shouldn't they express their dissatisfaction? I don't care what their vision is, if fans don't like it then they don't like it, period. Again, if they want to innovate, maybe don't do it with a remake.
>>338635387
>loved for their combat systems
>what is 1, 5, 6, 10, and 10-2
>>338630504
>grinding in FF7
I know the pount youre making but that game was easy as balls anon
>>338634672
>doesn't know what turn base is
>XV isn't even out yet
>Fans universally loved CC
>Wants a system that actually LIMITS gameplay and has you select ACTION from a menu
Ah, another retard.
>>338635064
>they say that there's nothing to take from the past
We're not saying that at all. Your post implies that the only worthwhile thing from FFVII is the combat. I agree that modern games could be much better and that it's important to build on what's come before, but in trying to defend your point you end up looking just as deluded and extremist as the people you're fighting; nobody in their right mind would ever have called any Final Fantasy battle system anything but serviceable until this recent anti-modern anti-AAA movement.
>>338635245
>Yup, you're right, modern AAA games aren't generally piss-easy with the depth of a puddle
>generally
so you're making it up? Your argument seems to be 'because those games typically are, these games will be too'
you give nothing to argue against because you're balancing on what-ifs
>>338635453
all of them are terrible especially when you compare them to any real strategy game
>>338635253
>FF10HD came out a few days ago on PC and people fucking love it still, no one hates turn based combat.
I hate to break it to you, but barely anyone actually bothers to finish those "beloved" turn-based games. Check the FFVII Steam achievements stats sometimes. It's very enlightening.
Wasn't Final Fantasy VII a modernization on the series?
That one was well-liked, so more like that sounds good.
>>338635556
Combat wasn't the only thing about FF. Hint: it has nothing to do with story based concepts.
>>338635260
You know, they tried that. With FFXIII. Look how well that turned out.
You also left out "the fans" from that. The fans didn't want Advent Children. The fans want FFVII with better graphics.
Such as simple thing that both you and SE can't seem to comprehend.
>>338635639
I own FF7 on steam but I've never beaten that version of it. I've beaten the physical PS1 version and emulated versions probably 5-6 times now.
>Using achievements as facts to back up a statement
>>338635372
Except those games weren't open world.
>>338634620
There was nothing to argue against, you just said
>Your opinion is invalid, you're not making an argument!
So kindly fuck off back to whatever hug box you crawled from. I think the game looks boring and is too easy and modernization usually means we get a shallow game that prioritizes style over substance, get the fuck over it. You can say
>T-t-that's not a REAL argument
Until you're blue in the face, there's no game to objectively analyze yet.
>people accepting this PR
Square knew what they were doing when they changed the combat system of the FF7 redux. Don't think they didn't know what was going to happen if they changed up the game style.
>>338635136
Cloud was very cold
Remember how he extorted Marlene's school money out of Barret?
Remember how many fucks he gave before it turned personal?
And he was a soldier, low level soldier
The thing is that here is where similarities end
Cloud as a grunt manages the impossible, Lightning never does that before becoming a goddess
Also XIII obviously had a ton of VII fanservice because Toriyama loves that game but I don't think it's bad
>to fight back against this unjust fate and corrupt government I'll blow shit up and cripple their power over us
Light was a bit Barret too
>>338629486
TL;DR: "I wanted to make the gameplay more like Kingdom Hearts and everyone said I was retarded for it."
>>338633407
To be honest, I'd imagine they'd have a hard time even giving a window of how much they spent. It's been 10 fuckin' years!
What if Akira Toriyama designed Lighting instead?
>>338635834
You know FF 15 isn't open world, too, right? It's simply a series of fields being streamed consecutively, no different from how GTA did it back in the day. Protip: FF 15 isn't any different from DMC or Ninja Gaiden. They're composed of the same elements. DMC and Ninja Gaiden could easily had been open world, too.
>>338635260
>SE in an interview has said that for years they have wanted FF's combat to be just like AC
Too bad most of the important people at SE who actually made FF7 were gone by the time AC was created. You're quoting people who either weren't at SE when ff7 was made or who were interns.
>>338635253
x, x-2 and XII are not 7 nor did they play like 7
7's modelling is extremely basic. Bringing that world fully into HD would be awkward without adjustment
X was the first of its type which im convinced gives it nosalgia factor, X-2 had its gimmicks that made it atypical combat and XII actually allowed you to move your characters around the field
None were like 7
>>338635969
There would be a lot of confusion regarding who to blame
Also Snow is now SSJ Goku
>>338635774
Those "fans" would scream bloody murder if they actually got FFVII with better graphics. A modern big budget RPG with three houses per city and nonexistent direction would be a classic, truly.
>>338636110
>Those "fans" would scream bloody murder if they actually got FFVII with better graphics
Now you're just generalizing. There's over ten years of defenses against your claim.
>>338630274
I'm looking forward to XV, but at this point I don't think it will be as good as Lightning Returns. It'll certainly be bigger, but as MGSV and every other open world game has proven bigger isn't always better. The combat in XV is definitely not as good as LR's.
>>338629486
I have to agree with this because it's true.
Oldfags didn't want it to change, yet they don't realize the only reason old FF was the way the it was was due to choices and limitations of the time.
Try to see the game in a positive light, it's production value is super huge with nice music, you just have to deal with a shit framerate and boring combat, and the framerate should be fixed by the guaranteed inevitable future PC release.
>>338636071
But AC was made by the guys who made FF7
Even thr FF7 tech demo was made by the sane guys
>>338634784
Plenty of fans want that, shitwit.
Gokng to be lots of divisiveness over the game when it releases, and I guarantee plenty of "journalists" who weren't around for the original will write articles detailing how gamers are wrong and it's the best shit ever.
This is exactly the mindset people have when they want games to modernize. They need to be realistic, hold your hand and can't possibly not have shit happening on the screen 100% of the time. They need to be movies or they're not modern enough.
>>338636201
Anyone can make good music. The most shitty indie games have good music. Music has nothing to do with the gameplay. Gameplay elements you can ruin with ease based on creative choices alone.
>>338636090
I have no idea why you think the combat system of the remake has anything to do with the "modeling" of the original.
There are many interesting combat systems they could use that would both fit the original idea of FF7 while also "not looking out of place" with the games graphics since casuals seem to be using that term a lot.
>>338629486
So where was this rationale when he directed that steaming turd Crisis Core? Was his vision of crowbarring Gackt into the story really a top priority?
>>338636110
No one screamed bloody murder when III and IV had their DS remakes.
Pretty sure fans would have been happy with a straight up remake. And they could have done it so quickly, too.
>nonexistent direction
The fuck are you on?
>>338635969
Bulma or Lunch with pink hair then.
>>338636176
>courageously slashing away at the weird wormhole in the Dead Dunes
I was not ready for that, my ass was destroyed
>>338635517
>Fans universally loved CC
I wouldn't say "universally"
>>338635921
The point is that it wasn't even Cloud, it was his crazy and fragile delusion he cobbled together like two weeks before the game's start. The "not interested" edgelord had nothing to do with the real Cloud.
>>338636249
You mean a guy who was a character designer for ff7.
I said the important people. Nomura is a stain.
>>338636290
It helps immersion, bigger budget games can get symphonies while the indie titles literally rely on like 1-3 people, 1 codes, one does artwork, the other makes music.
It just has more to offer
>>338636272
>Plenty of fans want that, shitwit.
not the majority. Hardcore fans will always complain but the money will be coming from the core which is expecting some improvement and not just remaking the graphics
>>338636479
>>338636484
Not knocking indie titles.
It's just something that big budget games can offer, especially jap fantasy ones.
>>338635563
>making it up
You don't seem to know what this means. looking back at past games and what publishers have said and citing them as precedent for what might happen here is not "making it up."
Why is everyone convinced that a game is either "classic" or "modern" with nothing in between, or even something different altogether?
>>338636479
He wrote the story dumbass
Nomura wasn't just a character designer
>>338636201
>Oldfags didn't want it to change, yet they don't realize the only reason old FF was the way the it was was due to choices and limitations of the time.
This is still one of the most retarded things anyone can possibly say. We've had action rpgs since the nes. If they wanted to do an action rpg they could have a long time ago. Shit the fucking company was making action rpgs back then
>>338636568
The majority had a different meaning back when the game came out. The majority were the SE/ rpg gamers who were actually playing games. The majority nowadays means everyone, including little Botrok in Africa who can't even get a loaf of bread.
>>338629486
how did it "modernize"?
>>338636643
What would be outside of the parameters?
Video Games as a medium were created in the modern era.
>>338635318
>ATB isn't Turn-Based
Jesus Christ
>Declaring to the public that your company has a 'disease' for having a certain vision for their game
Sounds like the morale there is through the roof.
Even if it's a joke, what a weird and spiteful thing to say to the public.
>>338635850
What argument you stupid fuck? I replied with a good post, and you still regurgitated the same retarded bullshit. NOT ALL games today are movie-esque games, there are good ones out there, failure to realize this and you are just ignorant. There is no such thing as modernization, people ALWAYS, ALWAYS hated turn base combat. It was nothing but a boring garbage mess compared to what the Western crowd were playing which were CRPGs at the time.
Every single person that I knew back in High School, College days, from the casual termite to the core gamers has always criticized and hated turn base combat, it has never made any sense, it's counter intuitive and anti-gameplay. You are literally sitting there, waiting for a bar to fill up, so you can PERFORM AN ACTION. That takes no skill, no thought, no reflex, no urgency, no failure.
FF like it has already been said in this thread, has always been about character and story. What do you think about when people mention 7? Cloud and Sephiroth, Shinra Corps, 6? How Kefka's personality was. 8? Squall and his retarded love story. X? Tidus, on and on. They weren't talking about junctioning when you look back at 8.
>>338636647
>He wrote the story dumbass
No, Kitase and Nojima wrote the story for 7. Kitase wrote most of the games people praise the stories for in Square's history. Then after about the 2000s he stopped writing, which is also about when people started bitching about the stories going to shit.
>>338636479
>>338636647
The story in FFVII was mostly written by Nojima and Kitase, who incidentally were also key people in AC development.
>>338636474
But that's the Cloud that's on screen for most of the game
And that's the real Cloud, remember AC?
>>338636110
You can make more expansive and detailed towns and environments without chaning the core gameplay, that's not even related to combat at all.
As far as Im concerned, Square lost their touch. For a company trying to make a game to appease global audiences, they sure are being restricted by japanese fashion and themes a little too much. It's a shame when FF8 and FF10 featured locations and themes way different from normal, and instead of going off these, we're back to either medieval times or gackt's perfect world.
>>338636656
But not action JRPG's under the title of FF.
The issue with oldfags is that a title meant a certain style of gameplay, but that's no longer the case and they can't deal with change. I was part of the oldfag crowd, then I just realized it doesn't matter, i'll be positive and see what the game has to offer.
But I'm sure as fuck not buying it on consoles, that framerate, no....just no...
>>338636353
>I have no idea why you think the combat system of the remake has anything to do with the "modeling" of the original.
because hi-def models moving and standing around like they have 8-points each in their joints will not look natural. Having an idle animation, which is necessary for ATB, will not look or feel right with people that look real. You start hitting uncanny valley territory like that and NO one wants that
>>338629486
Lack of modernization can apply to the entire Japanese gaming industry.
>>338636728
It no longer uses turn based battle systems and is going to add an easy mode setting for people who are shit at videogames.
>>338636832
What us Guts' problem with Griffith?
>>338634620
>dating girls
>can't go out on a bunch of first dates with women one after the other because the other ones would get mad
Can someone explain this mindset women have? You're not even officially together at this point, you're just trying to find out which ones click with you.
>>338636940
>can't deal with change
I think you do not understand the difference between change as a tweak and change as being a whole makeover. This change is bad.
>>338636783
it's not.
>>338636979
>Not getting all the information you need on the first date
Get better at reading people
>>338636795
Mechanically reproducing a checklist of obligatory stuff is the very opposite of having a vision.
>>338636110
>A modern big budget RPG with three houses per city and nonexistent direction would be a classic, truly.
people hate the concept of visiting each house, the fuck are you on? One of the reason normies eat up the Witcher is how you can breeze throught the game without that shit
>>338636942
You know that boxers kinda of like bounce in place to be able to move quickly
>>338630074
>banking
Good one. This is a AAA game that has been in development for more than a decade. The costs are just sky high. They will barely make any profit off of it. Maybe XV-2 and XV-3 but not this game.
>>338636778
Well I guess I'm opposed to the idea of "parameters" at all, like I don't get how a game having towns, or a world map, or a turn-based battle system automatically means anything aside from having those systems. It feels like people are too lazy to actually try to understand where gaming has gone wrong and instead want to just turtle up and retread the same ground over and over without ever trying anything new.
I'm not even necessarily defending XV or VIIR, because honestly I do see where they have a lot of potential to go wrong. It's just that a lot of the rhetoric here doesn't actually have anything to do with those games specifically and is more just general oldfag saltiness about how games have been ruined forever and it was a mistake to ever move past [era of choice]
I just hope they fix the framerate and input lag.
Platinum demo made Drakengard 3 look like a Devil May Cry game
>>338636201
>the only reason old FF was the way the it was was due to choices
NO SHIT YOU OMG CALL KOTAKU
>>338637129
>implying men can ever read women
You know that's the very reason men and women date right?
>>338636838
You're talking about Nojima, mate. Kitase generally did more directing than writing.
>>338636679
the majority has realistic expectations and is making them money.
>>338636940
>But not action JRPG's under the title of FF.
There were in America, because they renamed other games FF over here to sell on the title. And again if they wanted to change the gameplay that drastically they could have whenever they wanted. They used Turn based combat for 4 games and ATB for 8 games and notatbbutstillcalledATB for the XIII series. To say they aren't being retarded with XV is just sucking their dicks and ego. XV is only action combat because Nomura was making another Kingdom hearts styled game but with the ff title on it. That's it.
>>338637037
Not really, nearly everyone who's worked on old turn-based games said the only reason that was ever done in the first place (along with random encounters) were hardware limitations.
Square even said the reason you don't get huge towns in anything in the HD era is the sheer cost.
>>338637129
>>Not getting all the information you need on the first date
That's my point. If you for example arrange 3 first dates in one week, one after the other, if one of them saw you out taking a coffee with another girl they would get mad as shit.
>>338637194
no it was in pre development for most of that time
>>338636617
>what might happen
>>338637310
All they did was exchange 1 million of SE fans for 1 million of non SE fans on the hopes that one day those non SE fans would become greater due to mainstream appeal. Except, their SE fanbase has grown exponentially, which they continue to reject. Sounds more like a Square enix problem at this point.
>>338637229
they didn't work on that.... did they?
>>338637324
Well at this point 15 is clearly their last attempt at making big budget single player games, it really seems like they'll just abandon it if this fails.
>>338629486
so TLDR
>Since all companies decided to broaden their audience
>so did we
>at first we tried to do what we do here in japan, make waifu shit despite the backlash from the entire team and the fans who didn't want to see the franchise butchered
>but that didn't work out so i got flamed even more
>Now we are trying to do what western companies do despite hte backlash from the entire team and people who were fans of the franchise and people who hated the previous games
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wz-PtEJEaqY
>>338637405
I read your post incorrectly. I see what you mean now
I agree
>>338637347
>nearly everyone who's worked on old turn-based games said the only reason that was ever done in the first place (along with random encounters) were hardware limitations.
This is very wrong because action rpgs existed on the NES during the same time. Hell, even on the fucking MSX. You heard wrong, neofag.
>>338631934
>They got rid of the boring platforming and had fast transitions from fight to fight
Fuck off you nigger
You wouldn't know good level design if it hit you in the face
The platforming sections weren't the problem in KH1
It was the floaty jumping physics(which they fixed in KH2)
KH2's level design was boring as shit
>>338636942
>Having an idle animation, which is necessary for ATB, will not look or feel right with people that look real
Nigger go play X-2
>>338637174
>boxers
>>338636841
His stoic act cracks like 20 minutes into game. And Cloud in AC was depressed and sick, not cold.
>>338637592
>KH2's level design was boring as shit
>Not liking battle hallways
>>338636838
>>338636839
>>338631541
But you can do that without having turn based combat too. Nobody's asking for what little character building there is to be stripped down.
>>338637592
KH2 really is an example of taking one step forward, then one giant step backwards.
>>338637071
You wait for a character to fill up a bar and then they take their combat turn. Same for the enemies.
I don't see how it isn't Turn-Based. Other then it being a bit more Ephemeral in terms of order if a player is too slow. But still, even if you have to input a command before a time limit, at the end of the day, the command goes into a turn order and is executed in a turn by turn basis.
>>338637537
Yeah, I'm sure they'll just completely drop Kingdom Hearts 3 and FFVIIR.
>>338637591
NES
action rpg
how the fuck is that even a comparison
nothing 8bit was 3d.
and the issue here is the name FF implied turn-based, not action, you literal retard.
>>338637194
We will never know how much money the game has cost in total. For most of its life it was manned by a skeleton crew, or not being worked on at all. This isn't a case of 200 employees working around the clock for 10 years like some people believe.
>>338637218
Most modern AAA games are shit. They are not made with the core hobbyists in mind anymore, they are made for the mass-market. That shift is largely the problem, games industry got too big and is essentially Hollywood now. They need to appeal to the mass market or they don't make enough money, and to appeal to that mass market they must have an embarrassingly low skill floor and hold your hand so your average customer will not get frustrated and put the game down. The constant push for photo-realistic visuals and "cinematic" gameplay (also something people expect due to the shift in tone of the industry) just drives costs up further.
>>338637285
Kitase wrote: ff5, 6, 7, 10 and chrono trigger
Nojima wrote: ff7, 8, x-2, ff7 spinoffs, kingdom hearts games
Maybe you'll notice a pattern.
>>338637861
Alright, now you're going off a tangent.
So the argument here is that the old tech limited action games to turn based. Which is false. So you're saying that just because it was 8 bit, it was "easier?"
>>338637635
Not him, but X-2 plays like pure garbage. It can't decide if it wants to let you move or not, resulting in an obnoxious mess that has all the irritating pacing breaking crap of ATB systems, except with extra jank.
>>338637773
They may, but this really could be the last wave of huge single player JRPG's we'll see from Square. Development costs are insane now and the shit doesn't sell, people want big and better each time and it's just to expensive in the HD era.
So, they may have to compromise in some aspects such as give us smaller areas and then that may look like they're trying to change or offering something different, but it'll skimp on something else.
>>338638049
The fuck are you talking about? The only reason any of your actions will ever be delayed in x-2 is if your target is doing something first
Is he talking about Geostigma?
>>338637150
>people hate the concept of visiting each house, the fuck are you on?
Wrong.
>>338637150
>One of the reason normies eat up the Witcher is how you can breeze throught the game without that shit
Also wrong. Normies loved the second Witcher even though it was hard for them.
>>338637448
And? What the fuck else are we supposed to discuss? The game is not fucking out yet, shitwit, all we can do is speculate on how it MIGHT turn out based on what we've seen, played and, oh, I don't know, what the director says about the game.
You're basically just asking me to stop having an opinion because you're not satisfied with it. We can't do anything but speculate right now because we have little information.
Are you fucking brain damaged or something?
>>338638068
I'm not exactly going to mourn Square if that happens. Most of their good games nowadays are made by subsidiaries and such.
>>338638068
>They may
You're too stupid to live. SE literally said that salvaging big-profile Japanese gaming is crucial for them, because it's the very core of their company.
If they take their time to polish up the combat (not only the visual assets and performance), the game can be fun.
Platinum was underwhelming as fuck
The industry is dead to me.
>>338637746
>You wait for a character to fill up a bar and then they take their combat turn. I don't see how it isn't Turn-Based.
Not him but this is like saying you wait for the animation to finish and then you get your turn to attack again. I guess Mount & Blade is turn-based!
>>338638001
The original argument was turn-based vs action RPG and what the name FF used to stand for, which was turn-based combat.
Times changes, so did the combat, also in part because hardware became much more powerful, and people grew up was time for a new audience, and developers also probably get tired of making the same shit for 10 years.
Square's even said the reason random encounters were a thing initially was due to hardware limitations, which also limited other things.
>>338638471
lol they'll say w/e they can to sell the games.
It changes over time.
>>338638576
And my argument was that their hardware limitations defense was wrong.
>>338638379
>What the fuck else are we supposed to discuss
facts
stating that the game is going to be shit because other games have been shit in your opinion leaves even less to talk about. People like you are the reason this board continues to be shit
>>338636908
Why do you want every game to be the same?
>>338638681
Keep in mind when they made 7 they said they basically had no idea what they were doing and also went on the verge of bankruptcy.
When 8 came out they actually had some idea of what they were doing.
>>338638795
>optimistic for a game that isnt out yet, has had the worse development vaporware in history, and has had its gameplay changed various times
>>338629486
I get what he's saying but I don't really care. My ideal FF game would have a setting like 11, 12, or 14, but plays like a better Dragon's Dogma with more classes.
So I don't have much interest in XV especially when the magic system looks like ass.
>>338638852
No one said this. There are FF fan games that make FF better than Square does.
It really amuses me that turn-based shitters always thing that FF's main compeling point was turn-based system.
When in fact the series was always appreciated for interesting stories, settings, characters, cool looking spells and summons, world exploration, story of kingdoms, friendship, betrayal and crystals first.
You know, stuff that FFXV is doing.
Besides, the FF creators wanted to shift it more towards the real time gameplay since IV which is the reason why ATB was invented in the first place.
>>338636795
Amazing how you could miss his point so much. He was saying that people think that whatever FF is is "special" and that people have their own vision of what this FF is based on the roots of the series. The article has him saying to his team that they aren't special just because they are working on FF. The point was to move past the thinking that FF is infallible just because it's FF.
>>338639007
>interesting stories
Their stories were never THAT interesting. The series could never coast by on story alone.
>>338638576
>Square's even said the reason random encounters were a thing initially was due to hardware limitations, which also limited other things.
That's just PR bullshit, games have had non-random encounters also since the fucking nes. Games they've made even.
>>338638891
>optimistic for a game that isnt out yet
didnt happen, stop making shit up
>has had the worse development vaporware in history
pure opinion
>and has had its gameplay changed various times
welcome to development?
it's like you're typing because you like the sound of your keyboard
>>338639007
>When in fact the series was always appreciated for interesting stories, settings, characters, cool looking spells and summons, world exploration, story of kingdoms, friendship, betrayal and crystals first.
The stories of Final Fantasy have always been below average to average. At best you get competent stuff, at worst you get FFVIII or XIII. People played Final Fantasy because they had more polish and higher production values than other JRPGs of the time, not because they excelled in storytelling.
I actually don't foresee this outselling XIII, that game had a massive amount of hype behind it that this just doesn't. The people who eat up every AAA console game are no longer really interested in Japanese/anime style and see RPGs as outdated.
They've made a lot of good decisions to appeal to that type of gamer, with the completely action-oriented gameplay, the "open-world" and realistic, muted graphics. But at the end of the day I think those people just don't care about the FF brand anymore.
Square are run by complete retards, so even if this DOES outsell FFXIII, unless it blows it out of the water with like 15 million sales, they're gonna be disappointed, because for some reason they don't understand why FF can't be as big a series as fucking Halo.
And then when the FFVII remake fails to live up their delusional expectations, I have no doubt they're gonna start making future FFs mobile games.
Fuck Square. Why can't they just be satisfied with a smaller audience and budget games accordingly?
>>338639007
I play rpgs for the combat.
>>338639221
This, my favorite is FF5 and the story was literally "An ancient evil awakens" and Bartz turns out to be the old protagonist's son, etc.
FF is about as generic as it can get for the first few games.
What is with this game that it turns almost every thread about it into a bloodbath?
>>338639398
Some people want it to succeed, but a lot of people are jilted and jaded by the decade long development hell and are just done looking forward to it, and would rather shitpost in the threads.
>>338639280
I STILL dont know what all that moon tear/space shit was about in VIII
I mean, I love it since it was my first FF but what WAS that story?
>>338639398
You have 3 main crowds.
1. People tired of Squareenix's bullshit
2. People who drink a gallon of SE cum daily
3. People exacerbating both sides for the reactions
In about 150-200 posts if the thread starts dying somebody from group 3 will start posting "What's a jrpg anyway?" and start pulling the "jrpg is a genre" baitposting until the thread hits cap
>>338638521
except that actions don't go in real time.
Players and monsters have to fill up a bar and then do an attack, and depending on how long it takes to decide on the attack, then your command and the enemy command goes into a queue and goes turn by turn. You can select a command while an enemy is attacking, but you can't attack while they are attacking either. You can't parry, or dodge, or respond in any way, because it's not the player's TURN. It's the Enemy's TURN.
>>338639131
Man I wouldnt want to work there after someone said that shit to me.
>so you're working here cause you love FF? Well, tough luck.
>>338635409
I like how everyone keeps saying the fans are pissed about it when the worst I see of disapproval is /v/, who doesn't unanimously approve of anything that isn't Souls, and a couple YouTube contrarians that intentionally aim for views.
Everywhere else ranges from cautious optimism outright hype.
Not terribly excited for he Remake myself, but I figured I should point out that /v/ is a poor indication of how a game or game announcement is received.
>>338639349
RPGs don't have interesting combat outside of boss battles.
Random encounters, which is one of the most retarded gaming inventions, only added to that.
Half jrpgs I played always spam attack every 1.5 minutes because encountered occur, heal in between, occasionally use some spell to speed up the process and not die of boredon and get to the next cutscene and potentially a boss. Rinse and repeat.
Only autistic grindan-fags can love it just to feel overpowered at some point and kill high-level enemies in 2 turns.
Action games will always be superior.
