What is the hardest game you have ever played, /v/?
>>338180474
In terms of puzzle games, you posted it. Still need to some of the few last things, I enjoyed optimizing my stuff too much.
In terms of execution, outside of fighting games, it's probably ninja gaiden II (the newer one, though I did beat all three on NES too) or something of that sort.
La Mulana because I'm bad at solving shit
>>338181558
Was just about to post that. Game was cool but made my head hurt.
>>338181558
I was looking at that thinking how that could be improved, only to realize that flip flops weren't enabled.
>tfw you can never be an asian level gamer :(
Super Meat Boy for sure. Just didn't have the willpower to commit the movements to muscle memory
>>338180474
It's basically a virtual HDL of sorts? That's pretty cool, I might look it up, although it looks a bit too much like what I do for a living.
>introduce new game mechanics
>never tell you how they work
Fuck this game. How the fuck was it rated higher than the talos principle? It's a fucking husk compared to it.
Halo 3 on easy. Shit was brutal.
>>338180474
I always get a huge erection looking at SpaceChem. I had to quit half way through because it got too hard.
>>338182167
It's a visual programming game with chemistry as the theme. It's one of the best puzzle games I have played, mainly because of how logical and free form the puzzles are. It's worth its price 100 times over.
>>338182757
Okay I'll look it up, thanks.
>>338182335
I felt insulted by this game. On multiple times it introduced new type of puzzle and then when you got hang of it, it added another element which made the puzzle completely ass backwards. The most fun thing in Witness was walking around and drawing shapes in environment.And I fucking completed Riven without using a guide.
>>338182335
Fuck The Witness. I played through the easter egg in the beginning like 5 times because I though that was the correct way of progressing through the game. At least tell me it's an easter egg for fuck's sake.
>>338181895
>think I'm a big boy, being able to 1CC lunatics
>but nips are pulling complete runs without losing a single life or bomb
>and there's a plethora of other shmups out there
I love it, it's like I only scratched the surface.
These dlc star puzzles got a little sweaty.
>>338182335
>never tell you how they work
It does though, just not through words. There's very clear tutorial sections for each of the mechanics. Problem is, I think most people just breeze through them instead of using the tutorial panels to test if their assumptions about the mechanics are correct.
TIS-100 is a lot like SpaceChem except software engineer instead of chemical engineer
>>338184221
Then they don't do a good job of leading you to the tutorial areas before you encouter puzzles with new mechanics.
>>338184637
Is that supposed to be a negative? The game is about wandering an island and figuring stuff out yourself, it shouldn't have a big flashing sign saying "GO HERE NEXT"There's even a map on the boat that outlines where each mechanic is taught.
>>338183089
>>338183489
>>338182335
I can't understand how it has such a high rating on steam/anywhere else.
>>338182167
>>338182757
I only played a little bit of spacechem but i had to work with NI Labview a while ago and I got the same vibes from both of them. Could probably help with spacial thinking if you would ever need to use Labview
>>338185349
>LabView
oh fuck that dumb shit
NI employees should be rounded up and shot
>>338184858
A game about solving puzzles should not be about trying to figure out how the puzzle MECHANICS work, that just leads to frustration and unrewarding puzzle solving. Does the game even teach you that you have to explore to learn these mechanics? I imagine most players just trial and error until something works.
>>338185745
Well sometimes figuring out how the puzzle works can be part of the puzzle. See Myst for instance.
That being said I haven't played the witness yet so I can't really judge it either way.
>>338185745
I disagree. Figuring out the mechanics instead of having the game hold your hand and spell out everything was a nice change from most modern stuff. Only thing the game outright tells you is the controls - it's clear you're going to have to figure shit out yourself from the first few minutes of the game.
>>338183089
The Witness would be 1000% better if it was linear.
>>338183763
Gradius III Arcade is where the fun is had.
>>338186030
Which is why I would probably hate myst. I like puzzle games that teach players clear as fuck from the start what every mechanic does, and then makes challenging puzzles by combining & complicating them. Having to guess how the mechanics work just replaces logic with trial and error.
>>338186461
Not really, you just sound autistic.
It's actually the most interesting to find out how something works and then conquering it. The hypothetical situation of an adventurous archeologist finding a puzzle in some ancient temple doesn't have the same flair when an ancient ghost comes out and says what they had in mind when creating the puzzle, along with a babby tier tutorial example.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but you do have a wrong way of looking at this.
>>338186317
I don't think so, it would lose the "you're the Metroidvania character being upgraded" aspect, and I loved that.
Well, I just love The Witness in general, it was almost a 10/10 for me. I can see why everyone doesn't like it though
>>338186727
I wouldn't have a problem with that if The Witness had more on offer than connect the dots styled things. He could've skipped making his own engine if that's all he was going to do with it.
>>338186938
Well, it had enough connect the dot variations to last a lifetime, but I felt that after a certain point it was no longer about the puzzles itself, but use of environment mostly. The color house comes to mind.
I still haven't finished the post-game cave with meta-pendrives, was there anything after it?
>>338187052
It ends with a huge timed puzzle as a sort of last boss, but that just unlocks (in the proper way) the hotel sequence and the FMV ending
>>338186935
I do sort of like that aspect but there were definitely more than a few people who, for example, found the town and spent hours trying to solve puzzles they didn't have the knowledge for. In a traditional Metroidvania it's pretty obvious when a path is blocked off until you upgrade. In The Witness, tutorial puzzles and advanced puzzles are both just sitting out in the open - for a less perceptive player they might be indistinguishable.
It's a tough problem. Maybe he could have limited players to the boat at the start so they went to the tutorial areas first before opening up the whole island.
>>338182335
I don't understand how anybody thought this game was hard, there was like 5 hard puzzles in the whole game and 3 of them are optional.
I never completed this one, fucking brutal.
>>338186461
Myst is really not trial and error. Well, not too much at least. It's more about observational skills and logic.
The world itself is a puzzle in a way, to have to figure out how everything fits together.
It's not like it throws a sudoku grid at you and doesn't tell you the rules, it's more like you find an observatory that lets you see how the sky looks like at any point in the past or future, then at an other location you find a date and at yet an other location you have a puzzle referencing constellations (or something like that, I haven't played the game in like 15 years at least). Then you have to piece it out together.
Now of course from what I've seen the witness puzzles are very abstract so I don't know if it translates well there.
>>338187832
It's because people find a puzzle out in the wild and try to solve it without realizing it requires knowledge from somewhere else, e.g. trying to solve a tetromino puzzle without having been to the swamp first.
>>338186727
>It's actually the most interesting to find out how something works and then conquering it
Then the puzzles would have to be constructed in a way that you can logically figure out how they work, without having to search the entire map for tutorial areas or use trial and error. It's just tedious and unrewarding. It's like asking your kid to build something with legos, exept he has to walk around the house and find the scattered pieces first.
>>338188014
>it's because people are stupid.
Yes, I knew this.
>>338188183
Making essential tutorials easily missable is a game design issue, not a dumb player issue.
This game just kept getting harder and harder
Me and my friend couldn't beat it
>>338188276
You're wrong, it's easy to miss some tutorials, but to not understand that you do not possess the knowledge required to solve a puzzle is extremely dumb.
>>338187948
had a pirate version of this where I could not save in-game for some reason. I completed it (after a lot of trial and error) when I became The One and lazily raped the shit out of it from the Africa levels onwards. Think I beat the last level first time no saves
>>338180474
>>338181558
>yfw you actually understand what's going on
>>338187996
The Witness is more like the sudoku grid thing, but it starts each element out very simply and then works up from there and gives you as many tries as you want to figure out the rules with these simple panels.
>>338188276
Except the game makes it clear at the start that some panels exist solely to teach you mechanics. If you get to something that you haven't learned, it seems logical to seek out those teaching areas.
>>338180474
Fuck this game and it's nosensical puzzles, my 10 years old self was not prepared.
This shit on Deity is insane. You're getting gang banged by a coalition of purposely overpowered civs since the stone age.
>>338188710
Played Riven as a kid and having gone back to it as an adult, everything actually makes a lot of sense.
Spongebob Boat-O-Cross
>>338188710
Man that puzzle with the pebbles and grid inside the golden dome. Fuck this shit.
>>338187996
Witness is a very different sort of game than Myst, they're compared to each other just because they both take place on an island and have a first person perspective.
All of Witness is based around drawing the right kind of line on a grid. The idea is that there's a huge amount rules on how to draw that line, and you slowly learn them around the island. Later you have to take all kinds of rules into account at the same time, and often the environment comes into play too.
The game doesn't really teach you these rules, but there are important places where a new rule is present in the simplest possible context. At first it's trial and error, but after a few simple puzzles you should be able to deduce how a rule actually works
>>338188572
Maybe the players assume there is some kind of intuetive logic associated with each puzzle mechanic that can be understood if they keep trying, instead of searching around the entire island to learn how that puzzle back the start even works? When you start to think about it more and more, it seems this is not a stupid players problem, this is a stupid game design problem.
>>338189216
If the player wasn't stupid, the problem would not exist, therefore it is a stupid player problem. Not every games need to be dumbed down for stupid people, especially not puzzle games.
I feel like the game is trying to teach me how to be racist.
>>338189108
Okay, that sounds potentially fun, I'll give it a try. No way I'm paying 37euros for it though, I'll wait until it goes <10 bucks during a steam sale.
>>338189216
There are tutorial panels near the very beginning, so you should know what they look like.
At least to me it was very obvious that new mechanics were going to be shown that way later on too
>>338189528
Tutorial panels and advanced panels are both just panels. The only distinction is their simplicity.
>>338189409
It's not about not being dumbed down, it's about being consistant and logical about learning players the mencanics of the game.
Would you consider dark souls less "dumbed down" if the game never told you what the controls were?
>>338189804
The Witness tells you what the controls are.
>>338189804
>>338189901
I would consider Dark Souls dumbed down if it told me how to beat bosses instead of me having to figure it out.
>>338189757
>The only distinction is their simplicity.
And the fact that they don't actually do anything. You start out solving panels to open a door, then you're given a set that doesn't activate anything. It felt clear to me that they were there specifically for teaching.
>>338189804
This is exactly the same thing as Dark Souls players going to the graveyard or New Londo after the tutorial and complaining that the game is impossible
>>338189804
More like if the Estus Flask was in some room on the far side of the Undead Asylum, not on the main path.
>dumb players should explore more lmao
Shows me right for trying to talk about video games intelligently on /v/.
![maxresdefault[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/ursge8b.jpg "maxresdefault[1].jpg")
>>338180474
No Trials? Shit is probably the most difficult/satisfying game I've had the pleasure to play.
Shame that everything went to shit once Ubisoft bought up the developers though.
I wanna be the boshy. I've been playing it 40 minutes every other day for 3 years and I'm still only in world 2. My progress did get reset 3 times however so that factors into it but goddamn. That game is hard as shit.
>inb4 git gud
That shit literally has artificial difficulty.
>>338189901
The controls were supposed to be a parable to the game mecanics in this case. I guess a more fair comparasin would be, you are never told the controls at the start of the game, instead you have to explore the world to find the tutorial messages teaching you the controls. Would that make dark souls less "dumbed down" and add to the experience in any way in your opinion?
>>338190007
That's not a fair comparison. Telling you how to beat the boss would be like being told exacly how to draw the lines in the witness. Dark souls teaches you all the game mecanics you need to defeat the boss (weapons, attacking, magic, rolling, etc), but in the witness you have to spend time figuring that out for yourself.
>>338190791
>only in world 2
Have fun with Sonicwhen you get to him in 2028lmao.
>>338190972
Yeah, can't wait to be raped.most fun I've had in a while though
>>338188598
It was a shareware version that was distributed around the net for free, or something along those lines.
I beat it without saves too, and replaying it I can't believe I did so. Just a single mistake and you'd have to redo one hour of gameplay or something at worst every so often.
Hi
>>338190846
I can't believe you're actually staying with your controls analogy like it isn't completely worthless.
>>338190846
Dark Souls doesn't explicitly teach you how to get with the game mechanics ("when the enemy does X, do action Y and you will win!"), you learn it because you keep fighting enemies and experimenting on them until you get it.
Likewise, the Witness doesn't tell you that "hey, white and black squares need to be segregated by a line!", it expects you to experiment on the panels until you figure out the rules.
Both games utilize the exact same kind of teaching method. The game doesn't teach you, it gives you the tools that lets you teach yourself.
>>338191283
No one has played this in the last 25 years, but it is likely the hardest game ever made. Not for good reasons though.
>>338188662
>mfw take 5 mins to read the symbols
>its self explanatory
i honestly worry when people dont get things as straight forward as this
obligatory god hand post
This game is just a slow lingering death from the start.
Think only 12 or so people have even finished it on high difficulty
>>338191542
And the devs still had trouble marketing the game, despite its simplicity at the core.
No wonder why they made infinifactory somewhat simpler.
>>338191342
The difference is that in Souls, enemies are right there to practice on. In The Witness, the practice area is all the way across the map with no indication that you should go there.
Brood War vs Koreans
Quake Live and Reflex duels vs really good players who I can't get a single frag on.
>>338191509
hard and unfair are different things
upon starting any particular game of wizardry 4, it is possible, and likely, that the player will not be able to finish the game through no fault of their own. therefore wizardry 4 is semi-deterministic, and cannot have its difficulty evaluated. it isn't fair.
>>338191985
The problem isn't the mechanical complexity, it's in how many steps ahead you need to think on the later levels and how fucking long it takes to come up with an elegant solution, especially when the reactor chaining shows up. Stuff like that is waaayy above the level of thinking and patience of any player except for people who are already fans of logical puzzlers.
>>338188598
Even the steam version wont let you save.
>>338192104
It's called common sense.
>>338192104
But reasonably, when/if you come across a panel that you just can't solve, don't you get the feeling that you should head elsewhere and look for something that you actually can solve?
I don't know how you play your games, nor do I say you are playing them wrongly, but when I first played the Witness I came across the late game puzzles in the town really early on, quickly realized that they were too complex for me and went looking for easier panels. There is only one main area in the game that is locked behind a different area, the remaining 9 or so areas and accompanying tutorials are accessible from the start and they all have panels near the beginning that clearly look like tutorial panels.
>>338192761
>/v/ defends shitty level design with "common sense kek"
Why do I even bother?
>>338192104
>>338192969
Besides, you're wrong about the tutorials being on the other side of the map. All tutorials are found in the same area as the rest of the puzzles following that theme (except for the endgame areas that mix and match), exactly like how Dark Souls has enemies for you to practice on in the same area as the relevant boss (except for the end game where it mixes and matches).
>>338191342
>Likewise, the Witness doesn't tell you that "hey, white and black squares need to be segregated by a line!", it expects you to experiment on the panels until you figure out the rules.
Exept this is in a tutorial area you need to find. It's at the very start, but for the other game mechanics, it's much further away. Dark souls teaches you ALL the mechanics you need to know in order to beat the game before leaving the asylum, the witness hides that information away in the world.
In a sense, dark souls also forces you to explore and revisist areas later, so maybe it was a bad example alltogether. I just feel that when it comes to puzzle games, it's a lot more rewarding to solve a puzzle when you know exacly how the core mechanics works and it's just a matter of logical thinking. Making part of the puzzle about figuring out how the puzzle mechanics themselves work just feels like a cheap way to make it harder.
>>338193671
Figuring out how they work is a matter of logical thinking.
>>338193671
Personally, I think it's much more rewarding when I have to discover and learn the rules of the games myself than having the designer give me a list of all the things I need to know and leaving me to do all the remaining maths. I want to do as much as possible myself and get as little outside help as possible.
Then again it also depends a lot on the game. Stuff like SpaceChem that is purely about logical puzzling would definitely suffer from not explaining the rules. But it works for games like the Witness or Starseed Pilgrim, where half the fun is figuring out "what do i need to do" and the other half is "okay, now how do i do it".
Different strokes for different folks, but I think both types of puzzles are just as valid.
>>338194434
Meanwhile I think that Spacechem is the perfect formula for a puzzle game, as figuring out the solution while you have a very clear idea what you're supposed to do is much more fun than figuring out the rules the developer set forth.
Then again, I'm a programmer so logical thinking is just part of my nature now.
>>338194337
It's moreso trial and error than logical. Trying to figure out what some of the symbols are supposed to be is like a math problem without any operators.
>2 ? 3 =
>then you just have to try +,-,/,*,^, etc until you get the right answer. There might be a bit of logical thinking involved with trying each answer, but as a whole it's just trial and error, and unintuitive.
don't laugh, this game is actually fucking hard i swear
>>338194893
It's called a witness problem. That's the game's concept, not a flaw.
It's a different thing if you enjoy it or not
>>338194672
Funny you should say that, because reverse engineering code and file formats is the reason I also enjoy the other type. I've made custom file editors and mods for some games I enjoy for personal use and the only way I could figure out how those file formats worked was by looking at them through a hex editor (there was no documentation on them anywhere) and slowly and methodically editing bytes, booting up the game, taking note of the differences and then trying again over and over until I had a clue on what's going on. The end result is a sense of extreme satisfaction knowing that I figured all that out on my own.
Since you're already a programmer, if you have the patience, you should try it sometime. Even aside from the fact that reverse engineering is fun it's also a somewhat useful skill to have.
>>338195010
I do believe I played that as a kid.
Can't remember what it was like, though.
>>338185045
mechanically the game is by far the best puzzler that has ever been released. some people are just genuinely too stupid to figure the game out and thus really don't get it, without any hint of pretentiousness to that statement. when I hear stuff like "puzzles are ass backwards" it perfectly shows that someone with a small IQ is talking.
>>338195783
why are you falseflagging like that?
why are people not allowed to enjoy things you do not enjoy?
>>338195783
Is that you, jonathan blow?
>>338181558
>>338188662
>>338191542
>You understand that it's just a bunch of "sync" commands until the structure is complete.
>You know there's so much worse.
>>338195639
There is definitely some charm and fun of its own to reverse engineering, though I've mostly done it to some simple hex editing and assembly, not so much for games or what have you.
I kinda enjoy doing things on my own, and trying to replicate something someone has already done (like say, a specific game mechanic).
>>338180474
Wizardry 4.
>>338180474
>Ugly as ass
>Fucking brutal at its core
>Extremely fun to play
I honestly think it is one of the best roguelites out there with Spelunky. When you think you get the ins and outs of the game past the 3rd floor, the real fun begins with enemies using guns as fast as your owns.
>>338181895
But that's pretty tame as far as danmakus go.
>>338180474
Banjo Kazooie the overworld, impossible to find my way around
Plain, unsatisfying hardness? Factorio
Best hard/satisfaction ratio? Talos Principle
Fuck Factorio. The game was made by some autist for other autists
>>338197004
Is wizardry 8 any good? Might grab that one sometime
>>338191283
>devs put in a jihad party
https://youtu.be/GQz_i6chNgY?t=51m17s
no one at all would dare to this today
NetHack. The game is so fun but fuck me it is unforgiving.
>>338198006
What kind of anachronistic bullshit of a game is this
>>338197475
Canada is a joke
>>338188438
>cover seems to be about the Russian Revolution
>dirty, brutal war fought for complex political reasons
>"E for Everyone"
I'm not mad, just curious how this managed to receive such a family friendly classification. I know nothing about this game.
>>338197475
? It's pretty linear.
How did you have trouble?
>>338198392
It's an actual welfare state unlike USA though
>>338198505
because rating agencies are mostly staffed by morons who dont play video games
Life
>>338201581
Life isn't a game. In games, you can win
>>338200240
>rated E for everyone!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYyZfME5XYY
>>338193002
I'M NOT A FUCKING KEK
