You guys realize that the main problem with consoles is the shitty controls, right? Graphics can get fucked. They makes it where the servers can be large and mobs can be abundant, but if gameplay is still based on such awful input accuracy, it really limits the potential of games..
>>338138468
Yeah, nah. Fuck off cunt.
>>338138468
lol
the tiny amount of games and online fees are also pretty bad
>>338138468
>awful input accuracy
Open paint, put your mouse in the middle of the screen, and draw a strait line with your eyes closed. Change colors, return to the middle of the screen, and repeat. See how much they overlap.
Do this with an analog stick and your results will be better. The free range of a mouse is a lot less accurate for a normal person than the controlled movements of an analog stick. Well, it isn't exactly that the mouse is less accurate, but instead it leads to the person being less accurate.
>>338139162
I was thinking that. Like is uncharted 4 really good enough just to buy a ps4 for? Definitely not to me.
>>338139224
That's the most retarded comparison I have ever heard.
>>338139224
What's that video about the Doom first look where he can't fucking aim? That wouldn't happen with a mouse.
There are very few genres of video game that are superior with mouse/keyboard.
Most genres are either better with a gamepad or no different.
>>338138468
This.
Give me C and Z buttons and some sort of triggers on backside for middle figers.
In batman control was fucked up beyond redemption with all these "LB+A".
>>338139326
But anon I play fighting games with my mouse all the time.
controllers are more comfortable than a mouse and keyboard, and that's why the majority of gamers prefer them, and will always prefer them until gaming dies.
>>338139326
But those that really benefit the player are genres like shooters.
"In controlled tests, folks who played first person shooters showed 'faster and more accurate attention allocation, higher spatial resolution in visual processing, and enhanced mental rotation abilities.' Apparently, the improvement in spacial skills that gamers develop are comparable to those developed in formal courses designed to teach the same skills.. This was true for action games, and not genres like puzzle gaming."
>>338139415
There's literally an alternative to analog sticks as the OP pic.
>>338138468
that problem was fixed already.
>>338139516
No. You still need to lose camera control to press the face buttons
>keyboard/mouse
have fun with your permanent nerve damage.
>>338139653
Not a problem.
>>338139292
What do you mean comparison? Comparing a mouse with an analog stick? Isn't that the point of the thread? I used that example because it shows that your multitude of muscles in your hand respond in a more consistent manner with an analog stick.
>>338139324
>What's that video about the Doom first look where he can't fucking aim? That wouldn't happen with a mouse.
You saw a video where a person sucks at aiming? What does that have to do with input methods? People can have bad aim with a mouse and with a controller. Do think all PC players are pros or something?
Mouse and keyboard are objectively better for:
Strategy games
RTS games
MMOs
Competitive FPS games
Point and click adventure games
Console controllers are objectively better for:
Action adventure games
Fighting games
Puzzle games
Racing games
JRPGs
Action RPGs
Stealth games (Stick movement > tapping a key or toggling something)
Open world third person games (Anything requiring acceleration means triggers wreck keys, as you're allowed to apply different pressure for acceleration.)
>>338138468
>>338139684
You forgot to include platforming games under controllers.
>>338139653
Bind the face buttons to the additional shoulder buttons.
![c15f29e8-1db4-47ab-8896-64cb7f86f33e[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/Tpczu6A.jpg "c15f29e8-1db4-47ab-8896-64cb7f86f33e[1].jpg")
>>338139516
how is it though?
I bought the overpriced microsoft elite™ one for dark souls because of the back triggers. people seemed to complain a lot about the razor gamepads breaking, and I just don't know what to expect from the steam controller, I found no useful reviews.
I'm still interested in it though. Just can't imagine how well this is supposed to work. maybe a review from an actual good or pro player? I'd like to hear the opinion of someone who knows what he's doing.
>>338139728
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>>338139653
You've got shoulder buttons and the paddles on the back which were made for that exact situation.
>>338139728
Yeah, competitive FPS games are better with keyboard/mouse. Nobody disagrees with this.
>>338139468
analog sticks aren't what makes a controller comfortable, the handles are what makes it more comfortable, and the ability to just hold it in your lap. although i don't know why someone would replace the analog sticks on the 360 controller in particular, they are perfect.
>>338139728
That is literally me when using a mouse. I don't even come close to being that shitty at aiming with a pad.
Also, what game is this? I don't recognize it, which makes me believe it is a PC game.
>>338140000
>analog sticks on the 360 controller
>are perfect.
lmao. maybe if you're a fan of massive deadzone.
>>338140039
Rainbow six siege.
It's on console.
>>338140039
Why would you tell everyone you have downs syndrome. Nobody asked about it dude.
Good luck with your life though.
>>338139684
>Console controllers are objectively better for:
>Action adventure games
>Fighting games
>Puzzle games
>Racing games
>JRPGs
>Action RPGs
The only one here I would agree with is racing games, where the analog input is borderline essential.
Everything else there is perfectly fine with digital inputs and if it's digital inputs then the mouse and keyboard combo is on par with the console controller.
You can code a racing game to deal with digital inputs fine, but that's kind of similar to putting auto-aim into a FPS for console controllers.
>>338140091
never heard that criticism of the 360 controller. it is the most comfortable controller in the world.
nigger the controller is the only thing I like about consoles, I hate using a fucking mouse and keyboard to game with
>>338140204
>never heard that criticism of the 360 controller.
>the masses are correct and i can't perceive things on my own
>>338139947
I would even say that every first person game, and even many third person games play much more comfortable with a mouse because of the precise camera control.
the only real advantages of a gamepad are the analog movement controls and triggers, which are especially superior for vehicle control. I play gta5 with gamepad and mb+k and alternate between the two for example.
>>338140204
for controllers:
ps4>gamecube>original xbox>xbox 360
>>338139831
I personally believe it's the best gamepad currently available. The touchpads work great and can be pretty fucking accurate. Many people use gyro for aiming in addition to the touchpad. I haven't used that too much myself yet, but if Splatoon is an indicator it must be great. Here's a video of someone using it like that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6oxNfv5UBa8
The standard inputs you have are mostly just like you'd expect. The analog stick has a bis less throw than usual though. The position of the face buttons needs some getting used to. Dual stage triggers are great, but the analog has very little throw.
I won't even get into the customization options because that would make the post way too long. The short version: it's great, but it may take time. Don't expect a plug and play controller.
>>338140129
Comfort matters with genres where precision isn't required. Playing a Final Fantasy game on keyboard for a few hours is a lot less comfortable than using a controller for double or triple that time.
Anyone can use anything for inputs and become competent with it. The debate here is what is the most natural for someone that understands how a game has to be played, and be given the best device for that.
>>338139930
>>338139798
>lose control of the camera when pressing face buttons
The problem still remains.
unless there is a keyboard hiding on the back of the steam controller you are going to have some problems in games with many possible actions
yeah dude I know, can you believe some people play on a keyboard where they have no control over their character's movement speed? Apparently they play stealth games and platformers like that. Ridiculous.
Unless of course you're only talking about FPS games?
>>338140240
i've played a lot of splinter cell: chaos theory with that controller, and sometimes you have to walk slow as molasses so enemies don't hear you. i definitely would have noticed a deadzone problem if there really was one.
>>338140339
If you have the left touchpad free you can bind like 12 buttons on there with mode shifting.
>controller better for third person action games
just fuck off you clearly don't know what you are talking about, i played souls games with both m+kb and a controller, nothing beats the mouse for camera controls, the only advantage of a controller was that the movement didn't look jerky because of WASD limitation, but on the other hand it felt somehow less precise and delayed.
>>338139324
I've finished doom on ultra violence with a controller and I'm going back for a Nightmare run. You saw a video of a person who is shit at video games.
>>338140440
post wembs of your gameplay so we can have something to laugh at or fuck off
>>338139683
>where a person sucks at aiming? What does that have to do with input methods?
Maybe the point the previous post already makes: it wouldn't happen with a mouse.
>What do you mean comparison?
Probably that vidya is a lot more complex than random-direction straight lines. Analog's not accurate, and it's not agile.
>>338140129
>JRPG You mean games where you only need a mouse to navigate a menu?
>>338140405
dude you could literally play that game with a button that toggles between slow movement and normal movement. deadzone has everything to do with precision speed adjustments, not the requirement to move slowly sometimes as opposed to fast.
>>338140336
>The debate here is what is the most natural
>implications
>>338140336
Now you are reaching.
I've had very long play sessions, 8+ hours, on both controllers and mouse and keyboard and at no point have I ever felt one was more comfortable than the other.
I'll give the controller this, though, at least I can play as just a head with that.
I would never play arma with a controller unless it's a flight stick
>>338140319
the camera control looks superior to a joystick, for me at least.
how many extra buttons do you have at the back additional to the 4 standard shoulder buttons? 4 like the elite one? might be cool, I hate the sluggish camera turning with the stick
>>338140536
i thought deadzone was the time before a controller registers your inputs? if you're flicking around the stick really fast you shouldn't even notice it.
>>338138468
You could also flip the argument in favor of controllers which are better for fighting games and fast paced action like DMC.
Shooters and RTS: KB+M
Fighting, melee action, platforming: controller
Anything else: Either is fine
>>338140000
>Analog sticks aren't what makes a controller comfortable
Neat. The alternative suggestion from that post is removing analog sticks, not controllers.
![1302830007419[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/To5tDO7.png "1302830007419[1].png")
MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE > YOUR PERSONAL PREFERENCE
Hey look, it's every single thread on modern /v/.
Remember; if someone doesn't play the exact same games using the exact same hardware while living in the exact same country as you, they're a casual autist.
>>338140582
With what games you fruit cup. Playing a MMO or Xcom for 8 hours is different than playing Devil May Cry 4 or Dragon's Dogma for 8 hours.
Here's a question PC niggers, what do you think of arcade sticks, racing wheels, flight sticks, all of that shit? Did people invent those things out of controller spite or is there a market for devices that fit a specific need?
>>338140619
It's just two. I use one of them as a modeshift button in almost all my configs, so I can bind other buttons twice. This shit really takes some getting used tho though.
>>338140319
look at his wrist movement, this is exactly the thing everybody is trying to avoid when using a mouse to not get CTS.
What I don't understand is why PC gaming doesn't use a Wii nunchuck like attachment where you have an analog stick in one hand and mouse in the other. It would be so nice to have both mouse aiming and analog movement.
>>338140775
Controllers like OP pic can exist without the aiming analog stick.o
>>338140849
Mostly because no games support things like that. Ask the devs to actually develop their games with things like that in mind
>>338140769
well i thought he was implying that people would rather use something that simulates a mouse, like they have in the pic. which i disagree with.
>>338140820
It wasn't a good video to illustrate what I was saying. Notice how he only uses the gyro. From what I heard it's best practice to have the gyro with a very low sensitivity and just use it for precise aiming and use the touchpad in trackball mode for bigger sweeps.
I really need to get around using it myself in that configuration more.
>>338139683
Yeah you're right anon, we should get rid of pens and replace them of analogue sticks
What a stupid comparison
>>338140775
Arcade sticks are nothing, just generic controllers designed for durability. There is nothing inherently superior about them, not for fighting games, not for nothing. The fighting community is finally slowly starting to give up on that bullshit.
Racing wheels, flight sticks, etc. are controllers designed for very specific purposes and they are usually very good at that purpose. Console controllers, like arcade sticks, are designed to be generic. I don't know why you brought specialized controllers up, they are not relevant to the current discussion..
>>338140695
>i thought deadzone was the time before a controller registers your inputs?
deadzone is how much unused space there is between steps on an analog stick. high deadzone analog tends to have steps that are almost digital in how they respond. they're overly sensitive and make it difficult to perform small adjustments. low deadzone analog gives you a large range of steps and make it easier to perform small adjustments. this is why people prefer mouse for shooters, because it gives you both the speed benefit of high deadzone, and the precision benefit of low deadzone.
![YRNM3m8l[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/N1VK4cw.jpg "YRNM3m8l[1].jpg")
>>338140786
I already played elite dangerous with an xbox 360 pad before I got my ch hotas setup, pice related. it actually was very good to control that way, a poor man's setup but more than enough for pvp.
>>338140950
>>338140950
>i thought he was implying that people would rather use something that simulates a mouse, like they have in the pic
That's not what your post says at all, which was about comfort and not gameplay. They're the same controller and thus the same comfort, just with a much more digital input.
>>338140756
>Fighting, melee action, platforming: controller
you forgot racing games/flying games.
>>338140756
Fighting, 3D action, and platforming are all fine with a mouse. See >>338140434
>>338141061
>nothing inherently superior about them for fighting games
are you fucking serious? The button layout for one thing? How about using mechanical switches and the extra joystick length for directional inputs? You can't deny it's more tactile and precise than mashing it out on a tiny d-pad. Stop posting about things you don't understand.
>>338141064
i can't think of any games that i've had a deadzone problem with. the 360 has always been the most reliable controller i've ever used. platformers barely exist anymore and i never really played them that much anyway.
>>338140938
No game has to. Any controller can be used.
>>338140849
Everybody's fine with a keyboard.
>>338141184
It's not superior to a keyboard. Hitboxes are basically keyboards.
>>338141061
>Arcade sticks are nothing, just generic controllers designed for durability. There is nothing inherently superior about them, not for fighting games, not for nothing.
>being able to use all of your fingers for the face buttons isn't superior to being limited to using only your thumbs or using claw grip.
Imagine being this delusional.
>>338141061
Shows you never played Street Fighter at any level competitively, even in the most sloppy casual sense. Its a six button fighter, and different characters have better normals than others. Some characters are more viable with different control methods than others. It isn't a blank slate type of deal you dork.
For a ton of characters you need all six attacks for multiple scenarios or situations. Arguing that arcade sticks are just around for durability would be like me arguing people use keyboards for mobas because keys are easier to the press than buttons. Complete retard logic.
>>338141113
the hell are you even talking about dude? my original post was about comfort and then he said something about analog sticks, so i responded to that. are you autistic or something?
>>338141181
This. Games are past the point where a 2D platformer should just be platforming. If the gameplay is deep at all, it's better with a mouse.
>>338141184
Build quality is all arcade sticks have going for them and I already said that.
That weren't designed for precise input and control, they were just designed to take a beating from kids and to be easy to clean crap off of.
You're deluded if you think it's a "more precise" form of input than your standard console controller.
>>338141243
Not natively, they can't.
You can't just plug-in a wii-mote and make it aim in any given game straight out the box
>>338141278
hitboxes are not arcade sticks.
>it's not superior to a keyboard
>you have to hold two buttons on a keyboard to make a diagonal input
you don't know what you're talking about
>>338141058
Replace a pen with a mouse and see which way is easier to write your name with. The muscles you use when using a pen are better for detailed movements. You will be using more of the same muscles with your analog stick than with your mouse.
Thanks for the random comment that further proves my point.
>>338141516
>hitboxes are not arcade sticks
That's the point. They work just as good though, as do keyboards. Hell, they even make DPs easier.
>>338141278
You probably thought you were clever for knowing this existed, but it proves you're still retarded.
Playing as a grappler characters that needs to do 360 and 720 degree motions on a hitbox is a lot harder than doing it on a standard arcade stick, which is harder to do 360s on compared to a normal controller.
Meanwhile, characters that require you to piano buttons to do a special are way better on arcade stick.
Is your mind being blown by how different control methods invoke different strategies, pros and cons!!!
>>338141404
Except the deepest platformers in existence wouldn't benefit from a mouse at all.
Let's see how well you can speedrun Dustforce or Super Mario 64 with a mouse lmao.
>>338141383
Reply line:
>>controllers are more comfortable
>there's an alternative to analog sticks [for the same comfort]
>>well i thought he was implying that people would rather use something that simulates a mouse
What is that even saying? It's still talking about the first post, comfort, because it's not bringing up new information.
The point stands. There are analog stick alternatives for controllers.
>>338141667
360s work just fine on a keyboard.
>>338141684
>>2D platformer
>posts 3D platformer
Though, if there was any aiming to do, it would still be better on a mouse or similar.
>>338138468
Some games are better with a KB&M and others with a controller, stop being a sperm lord OP
>Shitty controls
>The alternative being 40 something buttons that either clack like mole cock or are spongy like grandmatits and a mouse
Sorry what? Do I hear you criticising ergonomical input devices for being ergonomical? You fucking bellicose retard.
>>338141871
Dustforce is a 2d platformer you absolute mongoloid. Did you just watch the video or did you read my post? Literally none of the top Dustforce players use a mouse and it's arguably the most technical 2d platformer ever made.
>>338140774
heres your (you)
>>338141415
Your autism is too dank.
Blanka and chun li require five separate punch or kick inputs respectively to do their specials, and buttons binded together still count as one input. How in the fuck is a controller, in which you have to mangle your hands around to do those five separate inputs, equal to an arcade stick where you can piano your fingers across buttons with ease?
Pls answer.
>>338141465
>not natively
Irrelevant. Getting a program is a whole 5 minute thing.
>>338141525
>drawing
Vs. an analog stick? The mouse would still win.
>>338141759
and i said that isn't what makes a controller comfortable, because my original post was about controllers being more comfortable than a mouse. obsessing over tiny irrelevant details, is that not a sign of autism?
OP is right.
>>338138468
FPS games are undoubtedly better on M+KB, that doesn't mean everything is. I'd never play an action game with one, or a 3D platformer or racing game.
>>338140518
>it wouldn't happen with a mouse.
It's Polygon, of course it would
>>338141916
That webm is SM64. I'm not sure what the suggestion is on why Dustforce is some technical experience. It seems like rote memorization. It's definitely not a deep game.
>>338141965
Now you are talking about the design decisions of a specific game not accounting for the limitations of the console controller.
In that specific circumstance the arcade stick may be a better fit for purpose but it's not due to it's superior performance, it's only due to a superficial difference in layout.
>>338142196
>It seems like rote memorization.
Oh nice, you're a "rote memorization isn't used to develop skills" faggot. Every musician ever would like a word with you.
>>338142239
A franchise in which started in arcades, thrived in arcades, and had an arcade release first for every game in the series except for the newest one, should be controller oriented first?
That would be like asking for Counter Strike to be more controller friendly, and we both know how that could play out.
>>338141996
The thread is about precision, which an analog stick isn't. The replies to your posts are adding to your point and making it relevant to the thread, not denying it. If your suggestion about comfort is still applicable to a controller like the OP pic (applicability which apparently now you're denying?), then what's the problem?
>>338142196
>>338142325
I have no Idea what you guys are talking about but it is really fun so far
>>338141914
>the alternative
>singular
>OP already has another
>>338138468
This only really universally applies to shooters, where m+kb will always be superior.
Otherwise it can change on a game by game basis. For instance most platformers are better with a pad
>>338142379
Do you seriously think arcades are more important to Street Fighter these days than the home console?
>That would be like asking for Counter Strike to be more controller friendly, and we both know how that could play out.
The PC still exists and is relatively thriving, the arcade is breathing it's last breaths. How many inappropriate comparisons are you going to bring into this conversation?
>>338142325
That other post was about 2D games being deep games (with gameplay), not linear traversals.
>>338139224
we're talking about games here, not fucking MS Paint
>>338142490
i don't really know what the fuck you're talking about. OP said that controllers are limiting the potential of games and i added my thoughts on why they will continue to be popular devices regardless.
>>338139224
Do you play games with your eyes shut?
>>338142587
see >>338141404
Games with platforming are at the point where they should be more than platforming, even for 3D. Imagine a game like this but with fantasy abilities and combos instead of guns.
>>338142673
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgUKhfZbfA8
Dustforce has more depth to its movement mechanics than any other 2d platformer I'm aware of.
>>338142665
Do you always type with a cock in your mouth, or is the true and proven method to post while a cock is in your ass?
I know you've had long sessions with both, but we both know the answer to this question.
The answer? Whichever hole allows for the cum shovel to do its job the quickest.
>>338139224
Good job anon
>>338142856
How about we imagine a game like that but not played on a fucking gamepad.
>>338139224
>A controller that can lock into 8way is better at drawing straight lines than an input option that is entirely omnidirectional.
Any other blatantly obvious things you've got to tell us? Also controllers are still shittier than KB+M for FPS no matter how you swing it, the transition and how "straight of a line" it is matters less, what matters more is being able to get from A to B as fast as possible with the ability to stop on a dime, which KB+M can.
In every single crossplay instance there's ever been, KB+M users have beaten the snot out of controller users in FPS games, even when they matched average KB+M users up against excellent controller users, stop it with your after-rationalization garbage, you're not a fucking preteen anymore.
>>338142861
Not sure you're making a point.
>>338138468
>but if gameplay is still based on such awful input accuracy, it really limits the potential of games..
Consoles don't use KB+M as the standard, anon.
>>338143025
That's on PC.
>>338143083
>>The problem with consoles..
You're probably just being cheeky though.
>>338142856
>Games with platforming are at the point where they should be more than platforming, even for 3D.
I disagree with this. I think movement depth should be the focal point of every platforming game. Historically platforming games that try to do more than that are just gimmicky and terrible.
>>338142861
As someone who's put >200 hours into Dustforce, competed on custom ILs and been a part of the community, the preferred input method for top players is keyboard, you raging faggot.
Generally I prefer controllers for 2D platformers, but in Dustforce you have so much alternation of directions that a keyboard is better, don't even know why you brought up mouse earlier, if you even knew two shits about 2D platforming you'd know that nobody ever uses a mouse for 2D platformers, it's either all keyboard or a controller.
>>338143232
>don't even know why you brought up mouse earlier
I didn't. It was this guy:
>>338141404
>Games are past the point where a 2D platformer should just be platforming. If the gameplay is deep at all, it's better with a mouse.
>>338143210
Except, case in point, there aren't really any multiplayer platformers. That's a whole niche that could be exploited.
Sure, something like MMOs with platforming are basically always just jumping between simple platforms and would benefit from deeper play, but not every demographic is probably interested in games without other gameplay mechanics than platforming.
>>338143330
Yeah. It's not counting platforming as gameplay.
Terraria is an example of a deeper 2D game.
>consoles after the ps2/xbox moved to digital face buttons
>no pressure sensitiveness
>have to use triggers for racing games
motherfucking consoles you cock suckers you have 1 fucking job and thats to produce a good standard controller. fuck i hate this about racing games these days.
>>338143484
That always made me wonder if I was pressing the brake / accelerator enough. The triggers are a lot more tractable.
>>338139728
>Gameplay by Kotaku
>>338143484
Why would you want to emulate a car or vehicle peddle with a button? Games did that in the past because no one figured triggers out.
And freeing up buttons meant those same buttons can be used for manual transmission/shifting.
>>338142938
You kiss your mother with that mouth?
Tell me you at least what until she takes the nigger's cock out of it.
>>338138468
>the main problem with consoles is the shitty controls
Also,
>lack of moddability
>paying for online
>consoles being jewed on exclusive titles alone
>high prices
>>338143453
>Terraria
>DEEPER 2D game
*Squints eyes*
>>338139224
Put a desktop icon in the center of your screen. Time how long it takes to move the mouse cursor over and click on it.
Now set up a controller thumbstick to mimic a mouse, time how long it takes to move the cursor over and click on the icon.
Now imagine the icon is moving around the screen.
>>338143624
>>338143642
old style racing game schemes is face buttons for accel/brake/ebrake, triggers for shifting. its what i grew up with. after 15 years of the same thing its suddenly taken away. its frustrating as hell but i'm getting used to it i guess.
>>338139224
This is the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read in my life
>tfw can play good with kbm or with a controller
feels good to be master race
>>338143453
Terraria is primarily an exploration/building game, not a platformer. The actual platforming part of the game is shitty as a result of a developer focus on things that aren't platforming.
The guy specifically mentioned 2d platformers. If you want good platforming, you're not going to buy Terraria.
>>338144087
feels amazing anon
Question, i'm playing dark souls with a pad and i hate how the only way to control the camera while performing any action is by clawing. What's the best solution for this, an elite pad, steam controller or try to use the keyboard?
>>338138468
>Play a game with keyboard
>Want to walk slowly
>Have to press a button
>Cant just naturally go from walking slow to running without pressing 3 buttons and shifting between 3 different speeds
>develop kyphosis
>nerves in arms become damaged
>can no longer play vidya
Thanks OP
>>338139224
Turn down the DPI idiot
You realize graphic designers use computers right
>>338144451
Play with a controller then, you actually have choice on PC.
>>338143794
You're appealing to the tradition of a game that already exists and not engaging the potential of future games.
There's no argument to [the other post about] Terraria's platforming "suffering" as a result of other gameplay. It very much requires mobility as the primary method of survival because all mobs harm on running into the player, and the advanced (i.e. bosses) can fly. As for development focus (>>338144167) detracting from platforming mechanics, that's also an appeal to tradition and not potential.
>>338143761
Wot.
>>338144087
>>338144451
>>338144685
Yeah, but I want good platforming in my platformers. I don't want other things, because the reason I play platformers in the first place is for the platforming.
You're acting like platformers with actual good movement/platforming is a common thing. It's not.
>>338144943
I haven't said that [your definition of a good platformer] is common.
YOU'RE acting like games just platforming aren't a tiny niche.
>>338143232
>in Dustforce you have so much alternation of directions that a keyboard is better,
What can you do with directional buttons on a keyboard that you can't do with a d-pad on a controller?
>>338141061
>Arcade sticks are nothing, just generic controllers designed for durability. There is nothing inherently superior about them, not for fighting games, not for nothing.
Fuck off you underage nigger
You need to be 18 to post here
Kill yourself
>>338145121
with*
>>338145121
>YOU'RE acting like games just platforming aren't a tiny niche.
They're no more of a tiny niche than a game like Terraria. I'm pretty sure Super Meat Boy was a more successful game.
Best console controller for FPS's coming through
>>338140849
Reminder that Analog Keyboards are a thing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DHcEW389Gc
>>338138468
shut the fuck up
>>338139292
No, you are retarded and so you cannot process the information correctly, therefore you are confused by it.
>>338145671
So I was wrong. You still have to stretch pretty hard to call 2+ million in sales a 'tiny niche.'
>>338141332
>being able to use all of your fingers for the face buttons
you can do that with a keyboard by tying the face buttons to WASD or ASDF(for Neo Geo fighters for example)
The problem is the directional input(via arrow keys) which is OK but it's nowhere near as accurate as a stick on an arcade controller
>>338141404
>If the gameplay is deep at all, it's better with a mouse
>le modern games are deep and complex
Fuck off you fucking underage nigger
>>338145873
The idea is that games progress. Games like pong aren't made anymore, for good reason.
>>338141415
>Build quality is all arcade sticks have going for them
Kill yourself
KILL
I
L
L
YOURSELF
O
U
R
S
E
L
F
>>338138468
it's limited in both graphics, memory AND controls. They all contribute to a very limited experience compared to playing on PC.
>>338141525
So basically analog sticks are better for slower movement while mouse is better for rapid movement?
Which is what we've been saying this whole thread
>>338139224
the line not being straight on PC is evidence of HIGHER precision, not lower, you stupid fucking retard.
>>338145246
Sorry, forgot I posted in this thread. Alternation is faster on a keyboard, you've got all fingers on a directional key at once and all it takes is a quick tap to alternate, on a controller you have to actually flick the stick, which isn't by no means slow, but still nowhere near as fast as alternating on keyboard.
Again, I generally prefer to play my 2D platformers on controllers but Dustforce controls very differently to pretty much every platformer I've played, e.g. gliding along a curved indention, reforcing boost up a jagged wall, downslooping etc. Dustforce isn't just about left/right + jump as most platformers are, you have to curve along with the environment.
>>338141871
No
Stop
STOP
T
O
P
Mouse is shit-tier for platfomrers
SHIT
TIER
Keyboard(without mouse) can be fine for some 2d platformers here and there but not always
>>338146127
>on a controller you have to actually flick the stick
Read my post again and you'll see I said "d-pad."
>>338141916
>it's arguably the most technical 2d platformer ever made.
Hello underage
Play some more 80s/90s games please
>>338146215
It's the same thing though on a dpad, all you've got is your thumb to alternate, compared to all fingers on a keyboard.
This discussion doesn't even matter though, practically all the top players of Dustforce swears by keyboard, it doesn't matter how much theorycrafting we do here, when in practice, keyboard has been proven to be the best when we're talking about Dustforce specifically.
>>338146278
>Play some more 80s/90s games please
Name an 80s/90s 2d platformer that's more technical than Dustforce.
Pretty sure you don't even know what you're saying.
https://youtu.be/KgUKhfZbfA8
>>338142665
>Arcade Sticks keep getting made everyday
>Every self-respecting fighting game fan plays with one
>He ignores this
feel free to stop posting any time soon
Oh and btw Fighting Games still have Arcade releases in Japan
The most recent one in my mind being Guilty Gear Xrd Relevator
>"controller"
>actually limits controls, leading to no-skill-required instakill melee buttons and QTEs to perform actions
When was the last time you went to click on something but missed?
>>338142861
Looks like Super Meat Boy with a broom
There's nothing special about this
>>338146648
>Looks like Super Meat Boy with a broom
Imagine being this delusional.
Also you haven't named any games yet. I'll concede that Super Mario 64 is more technical, but only if you speedrun it. And it's also 3d.
>>338146278
Well since he said "most technical" and not "hardest", let's take a look.
Dustforce techniques:
>Seven different types of groundboosting.
>Slopeboosting.
>Heavy cancel.
>Aerial cancel.
>Jorfing
>Tera drop
>Wallboosting.
>Reforcing wallboost.
>Forcing SS.
>Dashjumping.
>Midair recharge.
And I definitely forgot some because it's been a while, in comparison, your average 90s platformer:
>You can input this code to get infinite lives lol.
>>338143453
Sidescroller=/=Platformer you dumb fuck
>>338146648
I think SMB is better but you're still retarded
>>338145504
this
>tfw faggots complained about motion controls so this will never be a standard alternative controller for every future consoles
feels bad man
>>338145915
Progressed into what? Cinematic or Indie Hipster bullshit?
Once again fuck off you underage nigger
>>338146884
>Well since he said "most technical" and not "hardest"
I'd even argue that it's the hardest when you consider its skill ceiling and ranking system. Getting top times across the board in Dustforce can take thousands of hours of practice.
>>338146884
Sonic's physics engine(particularly 3K's physics engine which is the most refined one) is far deeper than this and that's a one button game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZV5UNS2y60
I hate KB & mouse
>>338146140
The point of saying mouse and not a keyboard is that games should have player-mob interaction that's more than jumping on it. Terraria was an example, and well. It requires pretty precise aiming.
>>338146929
Where is that suggested?
>>338147794
Terraria is not a platformer just stop
Sidescroller=/=Platformer
Next thing I know you're going to call Metal Slug a platformer too
>>338146608
Is this a fucking strategy guide for a QTE?
>>338139831
It's the duct tape of video game controllers.
Absolutely fantastic for fixing some problems but only an adequate solution for others.
>>338147340
And what are you contributing?
>>338147615
Physics doesn't count, it's not you pulling off a technique specifically, it's just you doing an action and then having the physics engine doing the groundwork.
But you'll probably disagree with that, so even assuming we do count physics, I saw absolutely no variance of techniques in that video, he hit enemies, he bounced, that's all that happened, that'd count for one technique, maybe two.
In comparison, here you have multiple of the techniques I mentioned in use, I didn't even find the best of customs, just one of the good entries for an official:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Wem1lnUYJs&feature=youtu.be
>>338148092
>it's not you pulling off a technique specifically, it's just you doing an action and then having the physics engine doing the groundwork
Are you retarded?
Do you know the skill it takes to precisely pull that shit off?
>>338147963
It's irrelevant whether or not you would classify Terraria as a platformer (or rather a game with platforming, which it definitely is).
Furthermore, you keep bringing up platformers as if they're relevant to the industry. Nothing's claiming Terraria is "a platformer".
>>338139224
>>338148180
>Do you know the skill it takes to precisely pull that shit off?
You're just as ignorant about the skill involved in Dustforce.
Regardless, skill ceiling =/= how technical something is.
Getting a good time in a 100 meter dash takes a lot of skill, but it's not 1/10th as technical as Jiu Jitsu.
>>338148180
Skill =/= technical depth.
Technical depth requires a long and varied list of techniques to put in use, all of which give applicable benefit, I'm sure it requires a lot of skill to pull off what he did in terms of accuracy, but that doesn't mean it has technical depth.
>>338148203
>you keep bringing up platformers as if they're relevant to the industry.
I never did that you're projecting
>>338148203
>Nothing's claiming Terraria is "a platformer".
We were talking about Platformer and you jumped in with your shitty 2D Minecraft game
We told you it's not a platformer yet you're still here
>>338140849
Google "Razer Hydra"
>>338148371
Confirmed for not actually having played any of the Genesis Sonic games
No other 2D game has as much depth in it's movement as Sonic 1,2,CD and 3K and that's a fact
Play those games(and master them) before you make a fool out of yourself
>>338148536
>>Nothing's claiming Terraria is "a platformer".
>We were talking about Platformer and you jumped in with your shitty 2D Minecraft game
>We told you it's not a platformer yet you're still here
The original post that started all this was >>338141404 --
>Games are past the point where a 2D platformer should just be platforming. If the gameplay is deep at all, it's better with a mouse.
And you're still on about a game being purely platforming.
>>338148349
see this >>338148754
>>338148754
And you definitely haven't played Dustforce either, so it's almost like the score is 1-1.
Let's leave it at that, I CBA anymore, have a nice day.
>>338148809
>Games are past the point where a 2D platformer should just be platforming.
There's a name for that genre you fucking nigger
It's called a side-scrolling game
If the game isn't focused in platforming it's not a platformer period
>>338148891
A game can be more than a platformer and still focus on platforming.
>>338146140
>>338141684
But the deepest 3D platformers are played with a mouse.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HUsdNEaKMk
>>338148823
Dustforce is Super Meat Boy with a broom just stop
It can't be compared to depth of movement the old sonics have
A great physics engine will always have more depth than some dumb flashy moves
Just watching some of these videos I can tell the physics on Dustforce are blocky like in say Super Mario World or Super Meat Boy to name a recent game
They don't have the complexity the old sonics have where mastering the D-Pad actually matters
>>338149279
That's a first person shooter not a platformer
But I know you're baiting
>>338149416
That just makes my point stronger. It's not even really a platformer and it has deeper platforming that you baby controller game.
>>338139224
So that's why people use console controllers when working on CAD or design. Now I understand, thanks Anonymous.
>>338147973
#fortheplayers
>>338149497
>Deeper Platforming
>Quake
Fuck off you PCFat
>>338149809
But everyone uses controllers at work, they're clearly the popular standard
>>338149287
>Dustforce is Super Meat Boy with a broom just stop
Nobody who has any knowledge of both games would actually make such a retarded claim. You're just proving you have no idea what you're talking about.
>>338149279
>bunnyhopping down a hallway
>deep platforming
at least you're trying.
Oh cool, another "the best controller is the one that allows for more precision" thread that can be immediately debunked by DDR vs. Stepmania.
Try again, kiddos.
>>338150910
>dance platforms
>relevant to controller and console discussion
>>338150910
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTueFIImPIw
>>338151043
Dance platforms are a type of input used to play videogames. This thread is about input schemes. Point doesn't change.
>>338151163
But the point isn't just about precision but gameplay depth. You don't make a point on adding gameplay features to platformers or increasing the skill requirements of games by talking about DDR controllers.
>>338151087
Dance Dance Revolution, in the absence of physical exertion, is the absolute stupidest videogame ever made, because even "casual" rhythm games like Guitar Hero give you a stupid toy guitar to play with, instead of using your keyboard to do it. Enough said.
>>338151276
And you have missed my point, because my original post debunked that degeneracy. The best control scheme is the one that leads to the best game and "gameplay precision" and "depth" are just means to that. Input also has to match the aesthetic makeup of the game, it has to feel natural, it has to feel good in your hands, and analog sticks can do that far superior in many regards.
Be back late
>>338150718
You could at least post something slightly impressive, like one of Siglemic's tick tock clock freeruns, instead of baby's first sequence break.
>>338151407
First-person shooters, in the absence of precision, are the absolute stupidest videogames ever made, because even "casual" arcade shooter games like Time Crisis give you a stupid toy gun to play with, instead of using your keyboard to do it. Enough said.
>first-person shooters with a controller
>>338151547
But I just said how the original post didn't debunk that. Most games are a lot more than directional buttons.
>>338151676
>double jump owlless
>baby's first sequence break
You literally know fuck all about SM64. This is further proven by you thinking Siglemic is still relevant when he's not even top 5 anymore.
>>338151703
And nobody plays rail shooters anymore because first-person shooters allow you to move around in hugely immersive worlds in ways infinitely superior to "rails". (And in the future, yes, FPS games will allow you to hold the gun in your hand without sacrificing any of the open-world facets, and it will be awesome.)
Next time, try forwarding an example that hasn't been brutally destroyed by three decades of commercial, critical, and creative trends.
>>338151980
The raw simplicity of DDR does not diminish the lessons applied to the more complex games. Dota games allow you to use a point-and-click interface to move the camera around the map, and this would otherwise be cumbersome or impossible with a controller, but a controller is still the superior way to play Dota because fixed-camera movement and an analog stick are infinitely more natural means for interfacing with the game.
>>338153221
Pull your head out of your ass. Controllers were great when all you needed from a game was to move and jump. I used to play Mario Bros. with a one-buttoned joystick and it was fine.
But considering how popular first-person shooters are, and given the limited control that controllers actually give (auto-aim exists for a reason), it's a retarded method of control and for once I mean that literally.
It is so behind that it is actively dragging skill levels down, even while just about everyone those games are marketed at is able to use a keyboard and mouse in 2016.
Whatever gives you the most fun out of your game is right for you, but if you want to be better there's only one way to go and it doesn't include an already outdated, ironically named controller.
Each to their own, but just acknowledge when you're full of shit.
>>338153221
>Dota games allow you to use a point-and-click interface to move the camera around the map, and this would otherwise be cumbersome or impossible with a controller, but a controller is still the superior way to play Dota
Are you memeing?
>>338153765
Yes, analog movement and controllers suck, and meanwhile, the overwhelming majority of great 3D third-person games were designed for it. And meanwhile, all the 3D/isometric action games designed for a mouse and keyboard (Dota, Diablo, MMOs) represent some of the very worst in gamiing.
> actively dragging skill levels down
This is how people who don't know how to derive pleasure in gaming from anything but "MUH SKILL" and "MUH DEPTH" think. They don't care about how the input matches the actions on the screen, they don't care about how it feels in their hands. They're innately focused on "depth" because they don't even know how to derive pleasure from the aesthetic of gaming. Graphics matter, how the input matches the mechanics/visuals matter, but continue to deny it.
If you want to continue playing games on inferior control schemes so you can get superior scores and "superior mechanics", well, lol, have fun with that.
>>338154331
It's fun to be good at something
If you suck at a game you're not going to play it are you?
>>338138468
tapping X to kill anything more than 3 times is one of my least favourite things to do, at least shooters fucking use L1/R1 instead of thumb potatoing
>>338154331
>They don't care about how the input matches the actions on the screen
>press X to push boulder
>>338154605
Uh, if the game is good and I suck at it, I should still have fun playing it. That's a fundamental facet of ANY good game, sport, whatever.
>>338154749
> here's this lone example from a game that i haven't played but i saw the youtube video because im a master of dank memes, this invalidates everything i said
Get lost.
>>338154864
>That's a fundamental facet of ANY good game, sport, whatever.
The fundamental facet is to win in some way, whilst enjoying it. Only rarely can you have one without the other.
>>338155165
I don't understand how this would argue against anything I've said here so far, unless you're arguing that using a controller means you're not REALLY trying to win, or something.
>>338154331
>Click-move games aren't as engaging
This isn't news.
>>338155472
You can't win unless the skill level is drastically reduced, or if games are intentionally dumbed down because of your retarded control method, i.e. controller
The game is not as good as it could be, and neither is the player
>>338155786
You are correct, which is why I used it as an example, because Dota players will scream bloody murder if you touch their free-roaming camera -- a means to mechanical complexity -- and that essentially requires a point-and-click control scheme.
>>338138468
While KB/M is objectively the superior input for precise shooting controls, a literal retard can be good with them. It takes more skill to effectively use a gamepad.
>>338155983
You want mechanical complexity so bad? Go play a sport. Games combine mechanics with cool fantasy. Your endless pursuit of "skilled mechanics" takes a backseat to that, and that means controllers do really cool, immersive things that suck me into those digital worlds.
>>338155165
I agree that you need to be able to overcome obstacles in order for a game to be fun, but I think that a good game emphasizes good gameplay, rather than the gratification of completing an objective.
>>338156013
But the camera wouldn't benefit from a mouse over an analog stick. What's the point of even bringing that up then? If DOTA even had proper controller support, it would be fine. You're not making a point.
My 2 cents on this whole issue.
I play DaS with a 360 controller. Legs up, comfy, no bullshit. But when I go to play Unreal tournament, I play with M+K. Why? Because I can get on point and on headshot as fast as I can flick my wrist. Camera controls with a mouse is what you do is what you get. With a stick, it's "push this hard for this amount of time to get to X. Overshot? Turn the analog stick over to the other side and go back for 0.001seconds". As humans, we aim To point X. We don't put muscles into action for a given amount of time. We just say where we want to be. I do that with my mouse on my mousepad, I say "game, this is where I want to be" and the game gets me there. With a controller, it's "I'll keep pushing this and when I stop, you stop".
TL;DR: With a mouse you know the address and tell the cabbie, with a stick you tell him each individual turn.
>>338154331
>controllers are great because they look and feel nice
>performance is irrelevant
So is your baseless opinion.
>>338156149
The problem is that mouse translators exist for consoles, so there's always the chance that some dude is going to come in and pwn everything.
>>338156213
>Games combine mechanics with cool fantasy.
So why shouldn't those mechanics be more precise? Surely that's win/win for everyone?
>>338156258
"Move the analog stick to see where teammates are" versus "point on the minimap where you want to look at". Enough said. Latter wins out big.
>>338156463
Want performance? Want mechanical complexity? Go play a sport.
>>338156476
Because people otherwise underestimate how clunky keyboards are for action games which don't emphasize point-and-click (FPS, RTS) as the primary skill. Not just that the buttons are significantly more comfortable, but analog movement is significantly more intuitive than WASD/mouse or anything inbetween.
And mind you, it DOES impact mechanics in a significant way, because the "best" third-person action games for computers are Dota/Diablo/MMOs, which are all unabashed garbage.
>>338156149
In terms of necessary skill
mastering KB/M > mastering controller > using controller > using KB/M
>>338156869
Same could be said in return? Don't like gameplay, just fantasy? Go read a book or watch a movie.
>>338156869
The buttons on controllers, I meant to say.
My prose is garbage right now. Sorry.
>>338156869
>Want performance? Want mechanical complexity? Go play a sport.
Stick to your cinematic experiences kid, some of us like skill-based games
>>338156869
ARPGs aren't "3rd person action games". The benefit the latter gets from mouse is how quick the camera can be set and, mechanically, the potential accuracy of the input for games where this is relevant (not tab targeting).
Mice and keyboard can have analog sticks. Controllers with just analog sticks for its pointer input can't be as accurate as mouse / trackball..
>>338156869
>because the "best" third-person action games for computers are Dota/Diablo/MMOs, which are all unabashed garbage
I played Metal Gear Rising with keyboard and mouse and it was fine. There's also stuff like Severance and of course lot's of first-person/third-person games like Chivalry and Mount & Blade.
>>338157093
Videogames are the ultimate fantasy medium because they provide the most natural interface of all media, an audiovisual medium you can interact with. In the long run, videogames destroy books and films, and then you just put books and films inside of the games, and it's even cooler.
>>338157163
Me too. That's why I'll keep playing sports, and you'll continue playing sports where you only use your hands.
>>338157663
It's not a sport if I prefer single-player games. So what if I don't play sports? I have no interest in any of them.
