RPGcodex
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You are currently reading a thread in /v/ - Video Games
You are currently reading a thread in /v/ - Video Games
how is it possible that not a single user there have given any point to fallout 3?
>>337842221
>>337842247
Shit they love the old stuff.
Thay have taste.
>>337842247
>dark souls
>>337842247
Most of that list is games with trash gameplay and arguebly good story
It says something about those people's opinion on games
>>337843224
>combat is the only gameplay I know
Being able to outwit the final boss into submission with enough charisma, or create a phantom out of repeatedly lying throughout the game is considered good gameplay among RPG enthusiasts.
Why are you even in this thread if you don't like RPGs?
>>337842247
>Witcher 1
>Witcher 2
>Dark Souls
>Fallout 1
>Daggerfall
Wew laddy they sure have a shitty taste to the core. And don't fucking get me wrong, I love PsT and Arcanum and VtmB and Alpha Protocoll and NV but holy fucking shite these guys are praising all those games like they're the fucking gatekeepers of RPGs.
And then shit on other games for having shitty combat or animations or story while most of their gems had much deeper flaws.
>>337843576
Good gameplay in a tabletop game, not a videogame.
Or are you implying that Planescape Torment had good gameplay?
>>337843224
oh boy
>>337842862
That's not even an RPG.
>>337843870
Sure proved your point with a zero content reply.
>>337843598
>I love Arcanum
ant then you shit about other games in this list for having
>shitty combat or animations
>>337844008
you're too fucking stupid, I could write a thousand words about it and you still wouldn't get it
now fuck off
>>337843786
It did. Hell, even the combat was generic rtwp stuff. I prefer tb, though.
>>337842247
>fallout 1 over 2
>Shattered lands on the list
>Daggerfall is the only TES and isn't on the top 10
These guys know
>>337843598
>I love PsT and Arcanum and VtmB and Alpha Protocoll and NV
opinion discarded
>>337844236
Go back to your safespace codexcuck
>>337844232
The difference between my opinion and rpgcodex is that I do like PsT VtMB Arcanum Morrowind or The Witcher 1 and Fallout 3/4 but I'm neither afraid to call them shitty nor flustered when someone makes a valid point why they are shit in some aspects.
Arcanum combat is like a rabbit biting your hand for half an our and then you reach into a jar of shit and lemons.
I also don't claim moral superiority by validating my points through a pseudo elitist autism hugbox
>>337842247
>Prioritizing story over gameplay
>>337844923
valid point
>>337842247
>Gothic 2 in top 10
Finally, the recognition it deserves
>>337844236
Sod right the fuck off m8 and go back to your codexcucks or AllFagsAllowed
>>337843576
>VN choices are good gameplay
>>337845001
It's OK when D&Dfags do it.
>>337844236
>>337845001
>rpgs
>decent gameplay
>>337844368
It was a reading simulator for the most part.
>RPGfags value the ability to roleplay in a role playing game
>games were these shine are rated highly
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW
>>337842247
>Codex always bitches about how storyfags are cancer and gameplay is the most important thing in an RPG
>their favorite RPG ever is Torment
Does not compute.
>>337845604
and this is why they will never be mainstream, i wish New Vegas played like fucking Counter-Strike 1.6 maybe i would've had fun with the fucking game
>>337845604
The best RPGs have good gameplay. Storyfaggotry is a blight.
>>337845727
They didn't alienate storyfags enough really.
>>337845817
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxXlrXqTJYg
fucking garbage no skins
>>337842247
pretty bad taste senpai
>>337846037
Ah, you mean non-Codexers hijacked the poll? Yeah, I can see that, I guess.
>>337845817
I agree, but to be like like a fps you would need to take the leveling and all that shit out...new vegas would be one of the best games ever made if you started capable of everything but the mini-games were really difficult and the gunplay rewarding
>>337842247
Man
What good taste
Kids on /v/ should learn.
>>337842221
Because Fallout 3 is shit.
>>337842247
>Arcanum at #5
That's a very strong indicator that this list isn't shit. Falls the fuck apart below 20 or so, but it's pretty good up until then.
>>337845001
In an RPG, the story is 50% of the gameplay.
>>337846235
No it's more of that the gunplay is clunky and the animations for the people shooting at you and when they die is so bad that it baffles me how they got it so wrong
You can't blame everything on the FO3 engine as shitty as it was
>>337842247
>Anachronox
The memories
FUCK
>>337845001
Fallout 1 and 2 and Baldurs Gate 2 had wonderful and comfy gameplay. Lots of skills to upgrade and use on the environments. lots of ways to customize characters, loads of loot and items but not randomized stuff like MMORPGs, ample quests compared to modern "RPGs", open world travel, have to think combat through
Also voicework, atmosphere, music, art and graphics
Pic is me thinking about playing those games
>>337846630
Shitty RPGs you mean
>>337846213
I don't even participate in the coxed anymore, holy fuck no Ultima and the first M&M is VI, first Wiz is 8.
Funny thing is that the codex really went to shit when Crooked Bee showed up and took grade just for being a woman.
>>337845627
The reading and talking was the gameplay. Dialog is as much of a mechanic as combat, and PT did that very well.
Don't see the hate about the list. It's not how I would rank RPGs, but it's pretty obvious that they have ranked most of them on the basis of how well the player can role play in them.
Sure a lot of them have what can be considered questionable combat by the standards of other game genres, but RPGs particularly WRPGs are a great example of showing that combat isn't the only way of doing good gameplay by having the role playing itself be a gameplay mechanic.
>>337846856
Let me guess, you think RPG = trivial shit like leveling up, collecting loot, high skill ceiling / min-maxing potential, etc.
that forum is somehow more obsessed with sjws in games than /v/ is
>>337846630
No but that's not true, this is the reason why we are getting a lot of these "Movie games" where you barely touch the controller
Since when it's fine to sacrifice gameplay for story? Why not come up with a good concept of gameplay first and write a good story around it, or viceversa.
This is why i hate a big part of the RPG fanbase, everytime i complain about boring or sub-par gameplay i get the same answer
>"BUT YOU ARE PLAYING FOR THE STORY AND CHARACTER BUILDING ANON, GAMEPLAY IS NOT IMPORTANT"
That to me is bullshit coming from apologists, the only good gameplay genre RPGs are suited for is strategy
>>337847053
Codex nowadays is /v/ with usernames
>>337847053
Really? Is that possible?
>>337846630
>story is 50% of the gameplay
Nigga what. This doesn't even make a modicum of sense.
>>337846895
Reading and talking is the gameplay of a Visual Novel.
>>337847182
Yeah
>>337847125
but they're all old men in their 30's, everyone on /v/ is 25 or younger
>>337846843
Baldur's Gate had great gameplay made even better with things like SCS. Fallout's combat wasn't anything special but it was still satisfying to blow people to bits. Both games had a perfect ratio of combat and dialogue.
>>337847125
yup and /v/ crossposters killed it
>old Codex
>Wizardry
>Might and Magic
>Ultima
>Goldbox
>Arcanum
>Fallout 1
>neo-Codex 2.0
>Witcher 3
>New Vegas
>Dark Souls
>BG2
>>337847246
oldfags maybe, newfags - not likely
>>337846875
But m-m-m-muh content!
>>337847125
>nowadays
>>337847280
>Baldur's Gate had great gameplay made even better with things like SCS
BG has shit gameplay and terrible pathfinding
>>337847296
New Vegas is better than Arcanum, though.
>>337847024
Or he thinks RPGs are things like Wizardry, Baldur's Gate, and Fallout and not visual novels.
>>337847451
Fallout doesn't have a lot of good combat gameplay, though.
>>337847416
Arcanum is pretty shit other than setting and world. Troika games are all flawed gems that could've been GOAT with a little more polish
>>337846875
It's pretty much a joke nowadays, yes. The place would be better under Vault Dweller's rule.
The funny thing is though, that the real faggotry rarely comes from newfags, they are, for the most part properly indoctrinated. Well, if we don't count Infinitron and his dogs. No, the actual shameless crap comes from the older, pre-2007 guys. It's fucking embarrassing.
>>337847416
I don't like Arcanum or New Vegas anyway, but Arcanum has better writing, progression and the world is much more open-ended in the creation and resolutions of situation.
>>337847117
>this is the reason why we are getting a lot of these "Movie games" where you barely touch the controller
That's not why we get those games, but okay.
>Since when it's fine to sacrifice gameplay for story?
Who said this?
>Why not come up with a good concept of gameplay first and write a good story around it, or viceversa.
Roleplaying doesn't work if the writing is bad, plain and simple. Writing out a good premise / story IS the same as coming up with the game concept, for the RPG genre.
>>337847451
I'm not defending visual novels. VNs are too much story. And yet the decisions you make in an RPG are completely ineffective if the writing is garbage.
>>337847553
It does unless you run away from every encounter or have high outdoorsman.
>>337847182
So?
How else are you going to convert what is basically a tabletop game into a computer game?
>>337842247
does this shit assume the games have been fan-patched up the ass or what?
vampire the masquerade is way too fucking high
>>337847616
>Arcanum has better writing
I don't think it did. The characters were underwritten apart from Virgil and Magnus.
>progression
What progression? Character progression? Oh yeah, get harm, win game. Progression!
>the world is much more open-ended in the creation and resolutions of situation
Can you please not talk like a wannabe hipster gamedev?
>>337842221
Because Fallout 3 is not an RPG
>>337847768
It really does not, putting it next to Wizardry is stupid.
>>337847692
>Since when it's fine to sacrifice gameplay for story?
>Who said this?
Maybe i didn't say it right, but nowadays people seem to think that you have to choose between story and gameplay.
It's like they justify the lack of one with the amount of the other
>Roleplaying doesn't work if the writing is bad, plain and simple. Writing out a good premise / story IS the same as coming up with the game concept, for the RPG genre
They are still videogames anon, you can't tell me you would be interested in a game if it was unbearable to play no matter how good the story is. Might aswell watch it on YouTube then
>>337847921
>What progression? Character progression? Oh yeah, get harm, win game. Progression!
>cheesing the game nulifies character progression
>Can you please not talk like a wannabe hipster gamedev?
What do you mean ?
The content gives more way to solve situation, sometimes with consequences, than NV.
Stop getting triggered like a tumblerina because someone used words too big for your negrified brain, fatboy.
The problem with Planescape Torment is it's an Infinity Engine game that doesn't take advantage of any of the good parts of the engine.
>>337848089
It's a bad progression when an early-game option is better than most endgame ones. So, the progression in the game is bad. Not good.
>The content gives more way to solve situation
What situation? Do you mean situations? New Vegas has better quests and better consequences due to its faction system. Arcanum in the end is just about defeating a big bad guy (but TWIST! He wants to kill everyone because living is, like, so painful, and so is dying, so let's just destroy literally everything!).
Yeah, top tier writing.
>>337848069
I find it hard to think of games where there is a balance, but the gameplay is just as much of a draw as the story. Funnily most games that come to my mind are ARPGs.
There's Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Gothic 1-2.
But what else? I guess most people would count BG2 and the first two Fallouts. Eh, okay. Krondor? Nah, I think that's mostly played for the story. From the new ones UnderRail also counts, I guess.
>>337848069
>They are still videogames anon, you can't tell me you would be interested in a game if it was unbearable to play no matter how good the story is.
The thing is, an RPG gets better as the story gets better, typically. Unless of course if the developers don't give you any option to actually roleplay (i.e. make decisions which alter the course of the story).
People have to start learning how to differentiate RPG elements from action or strategy elements. Turn-based combat has fuck all to do with roleplaying. Turn-based combat is part of the turn-based STRATEGY genre. Games like Deus Ex are called action RPGs for a reason — because there is both roleplaying and action elements to the game. No one in their right mind would argue that the part which requires precision and quick reflexes in order to play is the role playing. The role playing part happens in the course of dialog, or in real time instances, when you are given multiple options to take that will alter the course of the story and the game world around you.
>>337848709
I feel like RPGs are only good when they are ARPGs or straight out Strategy games
>>337848709
>I find it hard to think of games where there is a balance, but the gameplay is just as much of a draw as the story.
Max Payne 1/2, first Mafia, Starcraft 1/Brood War are the first c=games that come to my mind.
SS2 gameplay is kind of eh, not really that great when you think about it.
>>337848869
BG always gave me an RTS vibe with how you control your party members.
>>337849093
It was built on an engine designed for an RTS that never came out.
RPGs are about options and choices but with a final goal.
How you reach that goal can be varied in many ways, the more paths, the better the RPG.
FO3 lacks direction outside of the main story, thus lacks goals, and most quests in FO3, main quests or side quests are simply "Go here and kill/activate this" with a convince marker showing you where to go, paths just unlock bonus loot and perks, but never really help you towards your final goal thanks to bethesda's retarded scaled leveling.
In FO1 and 2 they would put enemies in your way, that could and probably would kill you, super mutants in necropolis in 1, the fucking scorpions in the first area of 2, all while giving you a major goal to achieve, but never telling you how or where to go, so you'd talk to people, who might direct you to the right or wrong path, making the journey much more immersive and enjoyable in the long run.
>>337849154
That makes sense. I've always liked RTS games but I suck ass at basebuilding, fighting, and researching at the same time so I actually enjoy RtwP.
>Codex likes to rage about storyfags
>outside of it people perceive them as extreme storyfags
it's like poetry
>>337849498
And all of that is lost without good gameplay, if NV didn't use the shitty FO3 engine (Wich is not Obsidian's fault) maybe they could've got something better, but NV, even with mods, has clunky combat and really bad animations for the people you are fighting
I don't get why they didn't literally just use a faster FPS engine. Even fucking Half-life 1 plays better than NV
>>337842221
>how is it possible that not a single user there have given any point to fallout 3?
Because it's a bad game. the Codex, NMA, and even half of /v/ agree that FO3 is pretty much fucking shit
>>337849498
Oh, and why FO3 is a shit RPG can pretty much be summed up by its vanilla ending.
>You have 5+ ways to stop the retard machine that doesn't involve you dying
>You must die, you are the chosen one
>>337842862
>>337843905
I would definitely call DaS an RPG. Stats, you literally play a role, etc. People who think that RPGs need to be turn based don't know what RPG means.
>>337849974
Even Fallout 4 is techinicly an RPG, it is sold as one, even though it is the most shitty RPG ever made
>>337849973
Oh and here is the one for Point Lookout
>you couldn't be a retarded and instantly join the church
>you couldn't outright kill them and bust inside
>you couldn't use your explosive skills to open up the game
>you couldn't use Speech to convince the gate keeper from letting you inside
>instead you get drugged up and have your brain remove
>>337849974
The Souls games aren't RPGs. You can play a knight, a thief, a magic user, etc. but these are combat oriented "roles" which isn't what defines the RPG genre.
>codex thread on /v/
>derails into a discussion on 'what is a rpg'
MEME MAGIC
>>337842221
RPGCodex would be a better place if it wasn't so autistic. It's even worse when new people join and go around in every thread flinging shit everywhere to fit in. Too many people care more about brofists and maintaining an image over having a discussion.
>>337842221
Claims Bethesda is a shitty game dev because they rely on mods to fix their games.
One of their top ten games needed to be fixed by mods.
If you played it you know which one I am talking about.
>>337849970
What's NMA? My knowledge on internet shitholes is fairly limited.
>>337850505
>being this new
>>337843576
>or create a phantom out of repeatedly lying throughout the game
Is that on Planescape?
>>337850491
>Anonymous Brofists this.
ITT: people that think "gameplay" means "combat"
>>337850320
You make a char
You choose what to lvl
You make decisions in the story even if they are minimal
I don't get what how it's not an rpg
>>337849498
I don't think RPGs are about choice and consequences because that disqualifies a lot of early RPGs. The same goes for stories.
>>337849974
>turn based
Dark Souls is technically an RPG but it's on Fallout 4 in terms of how RPG it is. It's retarded saying it's an RPG game before anything else.
>>337850731
t. autistic loser who's so pathetic he's afraid to play real D&D in real life with other autists
>>337850731
ITT: codexers think "VN dialogue trees" mean "gameplay"
>>337850583
Mmm, I'm not in the mood to have a dick measuring contest. So care to explain, or should I just continue my life in ignorance?
>>337850491
VDs Oblivion review was the start of the decline.
After that shitposting exploded.
It has gotten better recently but old habits die hard.
I will say if you look for it you can find well thought out serious discussion on RPGs.
It is just tedious wading through the sea of shit.
>>337850505
No Mutants Allowed
>>337850505
google, newfriend. It hides your lack of powerlevel.
>>337850853
A lot of early RPGs were really shit though, but they still had choices, they just didn't have very many and you were railroaded for many of them.
>>337850780
>You make a char
Physical features only...
>You choose what to lvl
Irrelevant, since there is only combat in the game, no dialog trees and such.
>You make decisions in the story even if they are minimal
Like what? They are so minimal and scarce it's pointless to bring it up. Ultimately you have no control over your character's personality, except for the occasional "kill NPC or don't" the impact of which affects nothing but maybe your access to an item. It's as much roleplaying as Legend of Zelda.
>>337842247
I still haven't finished Geneforge. There are like six sequels now, shit.
>>337850970
A fucking FO site? Figures. Makes sense, considering the origins of the 'dex. Well, thanks, anon.
>>337851085
There isn't dialogue trees, but there are questlines that require you to talk to specific people before doing certain things that unlock different options and endings, thats better then almost anything a bethesda RPG has done in years.
>>337851112
Four sequels, and the last one ended the saga.
But I can see how you haven't been able to finish the first game.
>>337851257
"considering the origins of the 'dex"
which had nothing to do with fallout.
>>337851112
yeah i could only finish the first
was p fucking great though
>>337851271
>thats better then almost anything a bethesda RPG has done in years.
As much as I don't like Bethesda, this is pretty retarded. Dark Souls isn't on the same level as Fallout 4 as an RPG, which says a lot. It has stat allocation and some decisions but there's nothing of real value. Dialogue is YES or NO. Fallout 4 has better dialogue than that friend.
>>337850731
>Winner of the most retarded argument of the year
Do RPG lovers just forget that gameplay should be #1 priority allways?
>but muh multiple paths
A linear path can be just as engaging as a "multiple ending one", it is all on the writing
A quest that is just "Go kill X" can be just as exciting as a "Talk to NPC A, Kill B or Find C", again, it is all on the writing
But guess what, ALL OF THAT means SHIT if the game is not fun, who cares about the story of "Literally who and his multiple endings" if the game is a borefest?
It just baffles me how people use the excuse "but it's an RPG, the game is supposed to play bad!" all the time when their games are being criticized
Also, if you are going to tell me RPG A is better than RPG B just because of multiple pathways you are a complete retard thinking games need to be branching and have open worlds to be fun
>>337851552
>Dialogue is YES or NO.
Meanwhile in Fallout 4 dialogue is YES/YES/Sarcastic YES/YES Later.
>>337851743
As much as I love this meemee, sometimes there's a choice. But you can't rely on there being one. I'm forced to say that Fallout 4's RPG elements are a lot deeper, when compared to fucking Dark Souls that is.
>>337851271
>but there are questlines that require you to talk to specific people before doing certain things that unlock different options and endings, thats better then almost anything a bethesda RPG has done in years
Actually that's what Bethesda RPGs do. But those games do have a bit more to it, since they do have dialog trees, reputation variables you have to watch, skills in non-combat areas like charisma, etc. But those games aren't exactly the pinnacle of RPGs, because the variety of possible story outcomes is fairly limited, the writing is subpar, and (although it's a complaint unrelated to RPGs) I find Bethesda to be fucking awful at animation and rigging.
The Souls games barely have anything in the way of multiple story outcomes. The story in general is very low key. Obviously the games are like 95% focused on the combat, so I wouldn't really call them RPGs.
>>337846581
No its not a indicator in fact the opposite. The game has abysmal combat and it crashes and laggs all the time if you do not have an unofficial patch.
Otherwise, it is an excellent RPG.
>>337851271
>bethesda RPG
They made an RPG after Morrowind? When?
>>337851873
Dark Souls isn't even an RPG, and nobody with a bit of experience with video games would claim otherwise. I was just pointing out that Fallout 4 sometimes offers even less choice than Dark Souls.
If an RPG is a game where your character grows in power and can equip new items then fucking Doom is an RPG. We really need new terms and genres to describe videogames.
>>337850780
Because it's a an action game with stats. That's it. It's as much of an RPG as Diablo.
>>337852169
Right, point taken. Soulsfags will argue about anything that makes the series look better so I'm used to that being a default.
>>337850780
>RPG = stats
Every game has stats, you dip.
>>337851472
>which had nothing to do with fallout
Aside from the place pretty much being an FO fansite in its early days, you mean.
>no archive of pre-2002 forums
FUCK
This is like fucking early Imperial Library all over again. Forever lost to time. ;_;
The nostalgia still hit me hard, though. I miss old forum spaces. It was the only time when posting on one was still worth it.
Pic related cracked me up though.
>>337852313
Retards seem to confuse RPG games with with games that have RPG "ELEMENTS" in them. A game can have RPG elemnts and not be an RPG, see: S.T.A.L.K.E.R
>>337849974
>you literally play a role
are you memeing me right now, srsly man
>>337851613
Linearity is an RPG killer — the genre is defined by the player's ability to make decisions which alter the story, a process of which in turn allows you to play as your character role of choice. If you think otherwise, you don't understand what an RPG is.
>roleplaying
LITERALLY autism
>>337852608
Just saying it is X Genre with RPG elements is a good start but not enough. Why don't we define which specific elements of an RPG it has instead of just saying it has "elements".
>>337849974
>>337849974
RPGs aren't about playing a role as much as being able to CHOOSE a role to play. As in, you can play whatever role you, the player, want, in the boundaries of the game. If a game only offers one role, though (Call of Duty, DOOM, Diablo, Dark Souls), that's not an RPG.
Out of curiosity, have you ever played a pnp RPG? Were you ever given the chance to create your own character (as in, your character's personality, not just stats)? Or did you always play pre-made ones?
>>337852595
it was started because dark underlord and the other guy got banned from bioware from shit talking throne of baal or something similar i forget
not fallout
>>337852313
>If an RPG is a game where your character grows in power and can equip new items then fucking Doom is an RPG.
Well, that's not what an RPG is, so the problem you're seeing doesn't actually exist.
>>337842247
>BG2 above BG
Well that's disappointing.
>>337852780
>the genre is defined by the player's ability to make decisions which alter the story
no it's not you newfag
>>337853043
Disappointment because it's where it should be?
>>337852976
Do you mean it should just adhere to the "roleplaying " part? I thought my definition was close enough to how every developer seems tout what rpg features entail in videogames.
>>337852506
>>337852402
Maybe I'm just out of touch
DaS is good enough rpg for me because I can actually sit there and think " Who am I playing as today" " Do i kill NPCs?" " What ending am I going for? Does it fir my character?"
Nowadays fucking uncharted is labeled as rpg so I honestly think calling shit like DaS and Diablo rpgs is perfectly fine
>>337852950
Could be, all my early memories about that place come from translated interviews and shit hosted there. I couldn't speak Englsih back then, but some guys used to link to the Codex all the fucking time, so sometimes I went there to skim shit. I just remember how everyone seemed to be talking about and praising FO all the time.4chan was the site where I first experimented with posting in English, back in 2005. Maybe I should just kill myself.
>>337853327
>Nowadays fucking uncharted is labeled as rpg
You're right about the being out of touch part. You honestly come off as trying desperately to fit in with that kind of line
>>337853327
>Does it fir my character?
That's the problem with Dark Souls. It doesn't allow you to play out a character that isn't limited to "do I kill guy X or gal Y today?" Interaction with the game world is minimal, dialogues are vestigial (or monologues, really), and at the end of the day nothing you do matters, because the game world just doesn't react to your choice of character.
Contrast that with, say, Gothic, which while railroading you into a "role" of a prisoner in the mining colony, allows you to go about being said prisoner in many, many ways. You can be a bold, foolish guy who gets into fights with everyone, you can be the meek errand boy who doesn't want no trouble, or you can play a sneaky con man who pretends to ally with people only to backstab them later. THAT, right there, makes it an RPG. Combat is irrelevant.
>>337853167
No.
BG2 crystallized the Bioware RPG formula of funneling you into a plot you don't give a shit about and focusing on horribly written characters instead of the world.
>>337853510
learning a language is more than 4chan ever did for me matedo it anyway faggot
>>337852879
>A player-driven character progression system
>The ability to define your role in the world through both social and anti-social interaction with NPCs
>>337853815
BG2 is better in every way other than exploration. Having party members that do more than say one liners when you click on them was not a new concept that Bioware invented.
>>337843224
>skyrim not in the list
>>337842247
>No Divinity: Original Sin
>But The Witcher games are that high
But judging from that list gameplay is the least of their concerns. Fallout 2's gameplay is an improvement over 1's by so much it's ridiculous yet the gap between them is huge.
>>337854147
>>337854219
That poll is from early 2014 or some shit. Before DivOS came out.
how is it possible for you cucks to get this triggered by a list of votes from some internet forum?
seriously
>>337847125
Pretty much, 4chan speak is all about the place.
>>337854391
Whoops. That explains it.
>>337853146
According to anyone with proper knowledge of the genre, yes. Maybe that's not how a good portion of the industry and game consumers define it, but the majority isn't always right.
>>337853186
Many vidya developers have a dismal or second-hand understanding of roleplaying, because many of them just grew up on video games and don't have much experience with the origins of the genre, which is tabletop. Japan meanwhile has almost NO understanding whatsoever.
Your definition isn't accurate enough. The fact it enables a game like DOOM to be an RPG should be evidence to you. An RPG is about making meaningful decisions in situations that allow for multiple paths which affect the course of the story / world events in the game.
Through this process you are able to play the role of your choosing — roles in an RPG are not "two handed swordsman, crossbowman, knife-throwing trap layer, ice mage" etc. because these roles are part of combat and strategic play only. They are more like "arrogant prince who cares only about his material gain, orphan boy from a foreign land who sticks to himself and lives as a thief, a military man who lives by a code of honor," things like that. Of course, the roles that are possible depend on the game's setting and writing.
>>337854460
People who use maymay arrows outside 4chan are always obnoxious cunts
>>337854547
>proper knowledge of the genre
the genre started with dungeon crawling though
>>337847385
>BG has shit gameplay
Unless you mean just BG1, in any other case kindly kill yourself.
>>337854436
And if thou gaze long into an abyss...
Explain to me why Baldur's Gate is considered an RPG while Dark Souls isn't.
>both allow you to level up and choose your stat, and yet the stats only affect your combat prospects(aside from carry weight in BG, which is literally the only exception)
>combat is the only mechanically meaningful form of interaction, and is almost always unavoidable
>your influence over the main quest is mostly cosmetic, you'll always go to the same places and do the same things, only in BG your char may have different LARP motivation to do those identical things, and in the end you get another cosmetic choice between ending A and ending B
Seriously, why is one the prototypical example of an RPG while the other is considered an action game? To me, the answer is obvious: Dark Souls depends on the player's twitch input and skills, thereby making in an ARPG, while BG depends only on the character's abilities(and, due to those abilities only coming into expression through combat, it's not a very good RPG).
Anyone defining a game genre by anything other than mechanical distinctions is fooling himself. No matter how many choices you have in the course of the game's story, this will not make your game an RPG.
>>337854675
Mate, if anything, BG1 had better gameplay than 2.
>>337854797
stats in BG affect more than combat autismo
>>337854797
>>337854797
>abloo bloo bloo level up numbers
>combat
>linearity
NONE of these make an RPG.
>>337854875
>Mate, if anything, BG1 had better gameplay than 2.
Literary wat.
>>337854797
People who jerk off to choice and consequences usually shittalk Baldur's Gate too.
>>337854875
le mao
>>337854913
Prove it
>>337854953
I agree, in fact I was demonstrating why these are bad definitions
>>337854115
Nah, RPGs don't need hamfisted VN elements. I'd hoped codex would be the one place to recognize that. I guess c&c is equally non-existent in both Baldur's Gates so they picked 2 because prettier graphics and the fact that low level D&D fights kinda suck.
Where's Mount & Blade
Honestly I fucking hate how loosely defined RPG's are. Not everyone knows what a "proper" RPG is, so many define it as simply levelling. And, they wouldn't even be entirely wrong with how loosely it's applied. I wish there were some fucking law to enforce falsely marketing something for what it isn't.
>>337853815
IT ONLY YOU COULD MAKE YOUR OWN PARTY LIKE IWD!
>>337855108
Dark Souls isn't an ARPG. It's an action game with RPG elements. Action is the focus. Same reason why, say, Darksiders 2 is also an action game with RPG elements.
Gothic is an ARPG. Morrowind is an ARPG. Role-playing is the focus here.
>>337855127
>hamfisted VN elements
Mate are you retarded? Talking to your party members and having quests related to them are not VN elements. Even then you're a dipshit because >>337855343
>>337854624
D&D was not a pure dungeon crawler. The first dungeon crawler came out a year after it.
>>337855343
Will that mean I don't have to chase a wizard that kidnapped some character I don't care about and set out adventuring instead?
>>337855108
STR -> carrying weight, door and lock forcing
DEX -> Reaction Adjustment, thief skills
INT -> literacy, lore, spell memorization
WIS -> see ^ for priests, also needed for wish spell
CHA -> party composition, dialogue, quest rewards, discounts
CON ->... not sure
>>337854983
BG2's gameplay is incredibly banal. Casters become great, everything else redundant, magical items everywhere, pre-buffing before every encounter, etc. You are constantly swimming in money from the moment you start the game, and can afford counters to even the more challenging enemies right off the bat.
The system is more or less the same so there's not much to discuss about that, but BG1 forced you to use everything you had, and forced you to prepare as it didn't allow you to do much inventory management mid-combat. No restocking arrows, passing around items between party member, or regenerating health mid-combat. Magic items were scarce and expensive until you were quite a few hours into the game. Resting was dangerous, traveling was dangerous, thanks to low HP and resistances status ailments could fuck you up badly while in BG2 you can pretty much shrug shit like poisoning off.
>>337855553
No, but you can try getting revenge on the wizard while you fight a dragon, explore a planar sphere, fights animal in a town under assaults, clear the town from a Beholder-worshiper cult and stake some hot vampires.
>>337847774
You can't.
PnP games are truly interactive, while rpg "choices" are static.
That's why the entire cRPG genre is pointless and retarded.
>>337855771
And explore watcher's keep at any time.
>>337855187
I had to read it again because I couldn't believe mount & blade wasn't on there, but it's really not, unbelievable
Also New Vegas is higher than Deus Ex. and plenty of people seem to be going for gamer cred by voting for shit no one has ever heard of
>>337855618
I'll accept thief skills and lock forcing. Anything else(spell memorization, reaction adjustment) etc. is just secondary combat stats. Discounts are almost meaningless, and I don't think remember a single CHA check in BG(in BG2, you even get an 18 CHA ring in the first sidequest in the game)
PS:T had some meaningful interactions and stats outside of combat. BG had almost nothing.
>>337855486
D&D was a ruleset. It's also less relevant if we talk in context of computer RPGs. Wizardry didn't have lots of plot choices, did it?
>>337856049
There were charisma checks in BG1 and 2. I remember because I savescummed a few.
>>337842247
>Planescape at the top
>>337856049
they didn't have visible checks, either you had the CHA and got the extra option or you didn't and it didn't appear
>>337855747
>The system is more or less the same so there's not much to discuss about that, but BG1 forced you to use everything you had
That's because BG1 barelly had stuff. Low level D&D is fucking boring, especially if you play caster. Enjoy getting oneshoted by a wold or becoming useless after you caster a magical arrow.
BG2 had tons of encounters, but none of them felt like filler and all of them felt carefully designed to the point I can name every fucking battle in BG2.
All the magic items are great and allow for great characters progression, on the top of them being unique memorable. It's a thing most modern games get wrong, shitons of game with random fire resistance and % dmg of a certaint kind, basically random junk.
Encounter design and item design are among the most renowned things BG2 has.
>>337856382
BG1 was full of trash mobs too.
>3 Fallouts in the top 10 with 1/2 in top 3
NMA pls
>>337856113
>D&D was a ruleset.
The purpose of which was not to simply be wargaming or what later became known as a dungeon crawler. It's completely relevant, because that's where the genre originates, even if it's outside of video games — whether the initial video games to try and imitate it were successful or not makes no difference. There have been video games which have succeeded somewhat.
>>337856526
I assume you meant 2. Very few fights in 2 felt like pure trash, even dungeons like Firkraag's dungeon manage to spice things around.
>>337856891
No I mean BG1 was full of trash mobs everywhere I went in the early game I was hounded by packs of gnomes and gibberlings or bandits.
>>337856696
>wargaming or what later became known as a dungeon crawler
wargaming still exist and it has NOTHING to do with dungeon crawling
you don't know literally shit
>>337856382
lol
BG2 is literally trash mob: the game
All of bioware's games are like that.
RPGfags are disgusting
That entire genre is an abomination
Hearing some autist talk about "meaningful choices" in a glorified visual novel with branching paths makes me want to puke.
Video games are about player agency, not developer agency.
If you're making choices that the developer wrote and intended for you to take, you're not playing your role.
You're being railroaded
A true RPG would be one that allows you to make your own choices and exercise your agency instead of picking pre-written dialogue options.
Traditional cRPGs are antithesis to the very concept of gameplay.
And you know what? To the concept of role play as well. The "play" that you do in PnPs refers to the kind of play you do in theater. Acting. Traveling through a dialogue flowchart and picking pre-baked options has nothing to do with the kind of roleplay you do on tabletop.
>>337856382
>Low level D&D is fucking boring, especially if you play caster
>color spraying everything in the face hoping for the best
>spamming stinking cloud from the second you unlock it and watch half of your party get into range and fall unconscious
>summoning an army of animals and turning yourself invisible to guide them to the enemy
>casting mirror image, fireballing the enemy, then teleporting out before they could kill you
>feeling like a god when you can cast 12 fucking Magic Missiles in a chain, interrupting everyone single enemy caster
>charming everyone and their mother for those sweet hidden dialogues
>boring
You what. Playing a mage was fun as fuck. It was a lot more situational than in BG2 where there was a perfect strategy that you used in every situation and had no incentive to ever use the remaining 90% of your spells.
>>337857130
Fuck off.
No one gives a shit abut your opinion.
>>337857056
I phrased it poorly. Wargaming or dungeon crawling — two different things, I didn't mean that wargaming later became known as dungeon crawling.
>>337857258
Their loss.
>>337856993
Then why did you say "too"?
>>337856382
>>337857062
The answer is somewhere in the middle. There are many memorable fights(twisted rune, the conclusion to most sidequests, Watcher's keep etc), but there's also a lot of filler bullshit(graveyard, catacombs, much of the underdark, fishpeople city).
>>337857329
Okay.
>>337857380
as an addition to one of your reasons why BG2 is better than BG1
>>337857062
>BG2 is literally trash mob: the game
You don't know what trash mobs mean, right?
>>337857414
The fish city is the only I'd conser trash. Catacombs were cool as fuck and reward you for using a cleric properly. Underdark is one of the BEST areas in the game with tons of unique fights.
>>337857130
Only reason it's an "abomination" is with how terribly misused the term "RPG" is
>>337857130
>Implying my favorite RPG isn't SS13
>>337857694
I wanted to mention, I think games like dwarf fortress and some roguelikes actually come closest to letting you exercise your agency and arguably "play a role". A story driven game can't be a role playing game by definition. It's baffling to me how "RPG" became so closely associated with "story" when those two concepts are directly opposed to each other.
>>337843598
>Dark Souls
>Fallout
>Daggerfall
>bad
fuck up fuck
>>337857936
only retards think roguelikes aren't RPGs
>>337857130
>A true RPG would be one that allows you to make your own choices and exercise your agency instead of picking pre-written dialogue options.
Video games aren't advanced enough for this, that's why we have dialog trees, which aim to give the illusion that we have this ability.
By the way, what the fuck is your alternative to dialog trees anyway, if you think any possible decision being "pre-written" is against role playing? In ANY possible way to make decisions in a video game, you are interacting with "pre-written" or pre-created elements and moving on a path which the developers made possible for you.
>>337857936
dwarf fortress is ruined by toady ignoring FPS-death doe
>>337842221
Smile you faggots, you are being discussed in the Codex shoutbox.
>>337858030
It depends on the depth of gameplay, I think.
A roguelike that's nothing but a combat system and a dungeon generator is arguably not a roleplaying game.
>>337858115
>By the way, what the fuck is your alternative to dialog trees anyway, if you think any possible decision being "pre-written" is against role playing? In ANY possible way to make decisions in a video game, you are interacting with "pre-written" or pre-created elements and moving on a path which the developers made possible for you.
Same as PnP games. You interact with a world that's governed by somebody else. Except that in a tabletop game, the GM doesn't literally put words in your character's mouth. Role playing is two people communicating with each other. Otherwise it'd be daydreaming. You're roleplaying as your character, and the GM is playing the role of the game world.
Not so in video games. In RPGs, the developer takes control of the character as well, making your participation pointless. He's just roleplaying with himself.
A proper video RPG would simply be a world that the developers devised, and a means for the player to interact with it. The player's actions and the world's response to those actions would be the story.
>>337857130
>Video games are about player agency, not developer agency.
They're about both. Your agency in a game is limited by the methods of interaction you're given which is controlled by the developers, and a lot of good game design is about manipulating the player to do what you want them to do as a developer. The same applies to RPG's, you express your agency through the game's various systems along with your actions during gameplay. To say that CRPG's are an antithesis to gameplay is just plain retarded. It's like you heard people meme'ing online about how the games are just novels with branching paths and actually took it seriously, ignoring the fact that a huge chunk of the games rely entirely on their gameplay to work. Just look at Fallout 1-2, some of the most popular and loved examples of the genre. Fallout 1 especially with how barebones its story was and how few dialogue choices there were.
>>337858574
Fugg, what will we do now? Shut it down! Shut it down!
Please don't hate us, senpai?
>>337858574
more like shitbox lmao
>>337858574
roqua is a faggot
>>337858817
Roleplaying is as free as the game allows. So say. New Vegas, you can roleplay and be very free but you're still somewhat pre-defined in what you can actually be. No videogame can reach the complex level of Dungeons and Dragons in tabletop, it's impossible to implement and even if it's implemented as some sort of game ala tabletop simulator style, there are still limits.
Roleplaying is playing a certain role within certain parameters, it's not limitless.
>>337842221
Can you /v/ teenagers stop your exodus to this place please? Yeah yeah you can say 'HITLER RULEZ' 'FUCK WYMINS' without being banned like on neogaf but this place isn't for you. And especially not if you bring your 4chan memes and speech pattern with you, it's cringey as sin outside of this board.
Thank you. We don't need to discuss Witcher 3, Dark Souls or whatever mainstream low denominator game came out. We have been invaded by petulant children ever since this gamergate drama and it would be nice if this could just stop.
>>337850906
You should lurk more or get the fuck out
>>337858817
That's like saying that video games in general have no player agency because there's no way to pick up any rock you see in the world like there would be in reality. Get real.
>>337859215
There really isn't.
That's why role playing video games are a retarded idea worth of ridicule.
That's my point.
>>337858817
>You're roleplaying as your character, and the GM is playing the role of the game world.
>Not so in video games. In RPGs, the developer takes control of the character as well, making your participation pointless. He's just roleplaying with himself.
I get what you're saying, but right now a true video game RPG is technologically not possible without dialog trees, or without being even remotely complex — the only way developers can muster a game world that is really, 100% malleable by the player's actions is if that game world is simple enough to never require the player to converse with anything. But so much of the human experience is in conversation and sociopolitical situations among diverse groups of people, so this is a huge aspect you are losing in the long run.
And still, even in such a game world, whatever can happen... the developer still made it possible. Even in "procedurally generated" games like DF, every last encounter was still pre-determined by the developer. The developer being a dumb asshole that doesn't understand what his own code is doing does not change this fact.
>>337859043
Who isn't, though?
>>337842247
>thought I saw Avernum on the list, turns out it was a mistake and although Avernum was Spiderweb Software's best game series, the odds of anything by Spiderweb Software appearing on a list full of triple-A titles is one in a mil-
>see Geneforge in 47th
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>337859376
By making that argument, you're also saying that video games in general are a retarded idea worth of ridicule because they will never give you the same amount of interraction real life does. Again, get real.
>>337858553
what game is that from?
>>337859376
Your point's a joke then. Video games still make some effort, some which do enough that you can suspend your disbelief long enough to enjoy them. Like the first Deus Ex. It felt fucking good trying to kill Anna on the jet instead and realizing the game totally allows for it.
>>337859497
Divinity OS I think.
>>337845678
Then why are most of the games actioan adventure games, nostalgia fag games of liberal hipster fag games?
>>337859073
No, roleplaying is literally playing a role. "Play", as in theater play. Acting. That's what you do in a tabletop game.
Exploring dialogue trees or playing video games in general has nothing to do with what you do in an actual PnP game, so the genre is pointless for what it's trying to be.
>>337859490
I never said video games are about giving you ultimate freedom and agency. The premise of "roleplaying" is, though. And that's why "roleplaying video games" are retarded.
You're a bit slow.
>>337859826
>The premise of "roleplaying" is, though
No, it isn't. Roleplaying games have rules and systems in place which the players have to follow.
>>337847125
>>337847296
Pretty much, yeah. It hurts. I've lurked it for almost a decade now and the place has really went to shit.
Also what the fuck happened to all the trannies. There was so many of them at one point attention whoring all over the place. Now I don't think there's a single one left.
HEY CODEX
YOUR BUTTHURT ABOUT DEEP CAVERNS WAS DELICIOUS
>muh debuff
>muh respawning burrowers
>muh backtracking
>why are the Faceless mean to me ;_;
FUCKING FAGGETS
>>337859385
>I get what you're saying, but right now a true video game RPG is technologically not possible without dialog trees, or without being even remotely complex
And I'm saying that a true video game RPG is not something worth striving for, considering how far removed the experience is from actual "role play". An RPG game is about as accurate to a tabletop game session as FIFA is to playing a football match.
> Even in "procedurally generated" games like DF, every last encounter was still pre-determined by the developer. The developer being a dumb asshole that doesn't understand what his own code is doing does not change this fact.
Yeah, but that's not the point. Even in a regular tabletop game the GM also makes everything possible. Roleplaying is fundamentally about communicating with other people. You and the GM are having a dialogue.
If a video game lets you have your say, and responds to your actions, then you can exercise your agency.
I don't think it'll ever be possible to have a "true video game RPG", but dialogue trees and story-driven gameplay is a step in the wrong direction, is what I'm saying.
>>337860298
You do know there are video games with DMs right?
>>337860039
> have to follow.
They don't "have to" follow them. The rules are a framework and a guideline that is to be ignored when appropriate.
A session where the GM spends 10 minutes browsing the rulebook every dice roll is a terrible session.
The rules are only there for the dice rolls, and the dice rolls are there to give the players and the GM an element of controllable randomness to improvise off off.
>>337859826
>so the genre is pointless
Right, well it works and has a following. I really don't think you're being very logical. Keeping New Vegas as an example, you play a role in the story no matter what you pick, if you actually follow the story that is. That's not true roleplaying because roleplaying is impossible in vidya? I guess this is what people mean by saying the genre is retarded, we have hardcore people who don't think anything's TRUE roleplay.
>>337842247
Arx Fatalis should be way higher.
>>337860298
>Roleplaying is fundamentally about communicating with other people
And why's that a rule?
>>337860571
Because the only TRUE roleplay is to sit your ass down on a tabletop session and have a good time with your friends.
Sitting alone in front of a computer and picking dialogue options is not roleplay. Choose your own adventure books aren't roleplay. VNs aren't roleplay.
How does a "branching path story" become a "role playing game" simply by adding a stat system to it? It doesn't.
>>337860563
Your choice of character will determine what you can or cannot say, your choice of class will determine what you can or cannot do. Your interraction will be limited by the game's rules unless you just disregard them and play pretend.
>>337860856
>Because the only TRUE roleplay
Alright so it really is just completely and utterly subjective. True roleplay is sitting down and defining the rules with your DM, as opposed to playing a game where you step into a world where the rules are pre-determined and you have to figure them out yourself.
>>337860787
People are defined by their actions, people act in response to the events that happen to them, those events have to come from outside otherwise it can't really be called an action, therefore the minimum number of entities required to "play a role" is two: the character and the world that presents them with choices.
>>337861272
>itting down and defining the rules with your DM
Roleplay is not about the rules, is what you don't get.
>step into a world
You're not doing that when playing a video game, though.
>>337861610
You're forgetting the "game" part next to the "roleplaying" part which necessitates rules that you must follow and distinguishes it from playing pretend aimlessly.
>>337842221
Get out of here Razorfist
Fuck me in my tight asshole
>>337861610
like >>337861768 said, you can't have completely free roleplaying even according to you because in DnD or sitting down roleplaying you still have rules you have to follow. If you don't then it'll get out of hand and not be fun at all. So really how is this any different from playing a game, other than that creating your own world is a lot faster?¨
Stop being such an elitist about it, there's nothing wrong with enjoying vidya RPG's and there shouldn't be a fight between what's more "true" roleplay of the two because it's still entirely subjective as you just proved.
>>337860298
>And I'm saying that a true video game RPG is not something worth striving for
Why not? Audio-visual experiences are richer than ones without these parts. The closer we can get to a truly immersive virtual RPG, the better.
>I don't think it'll ever be possible to have a "true video game RPG", but dialogue trees and story-driven gameplay is a step in the wrong direction, is what I'm saying.
Well I'll agree there, but in the sense that they are an outdated direction to take. At one time they were the right direction, and they did work somewhat well. But devs definitely have to move past them eventually.
Just my own idea, but I've imagined that the next step for RPGs will be something along the lines of one huge cutscene, but an extremely interactive one, laced with practical yet complex QTEs everywhere, on top of an engine that is as complex as a tabletop game. Like the game The Last Express with a really complex variable system underneath that allowed for tons of different story routes, and AI complex enough to sustain that, or the utilization of multiplayer to enable it.
>>337861768
>>337862207
Making parallels between the PnP rulebook systems and video game mechanics and then saying video games can be RPGs makes no sense.
Video games have zero problems with simulating tabletop rulebooks. In fact, they're limiting themselves by trying to emulate such a primitive system.
It's the other part of the tabletop experience that videogames can't simpuate. You know, the part where everyone puts down their rulebooks and dice and starts playing their roles, the GM gives exposition, etc.
That's where the big misconception comes from. People assume that if your game runs on DnD 3.5 or GURPS or something, it's more of an RPG than a game that plays like an FPS. No. Neither of them are RPGs. But if the FPS game could properly simulate the "roleplaying" aspect of tabletop games I mentioned above, it would've been an RPG.
