But do you agree?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb6Eo1D6VW8
He's probably the only guy in the channel who isn't a complete faggot
>>337721969
does he argue that theres no verticality to it? Cause thats my guess.
He's right, he isn't really giving any opinions, just talking about the facts behind DOOM's engine.
But the game is still 3D in the definition that what we see with our mind is a 3D space because they draw floors and ceilings. Just because the game's engine doesn't think in 3D space doesn't mean thats how the player interprets everything.
But in the end it's just a semantics debate about what is and what isn't 3D.
Autism
>>337722603
That's the way I liked to see it, we perceive it as going up down, forward and backward it's 3D in it's whole. Regardless of what the engine could render
>>337722548
Yes, but also gives the technical reasons for this, which is nice.
He finally made a new one?
Damn, he's the only one I don't consider cringy
I still have Gaijin Goomba in my subscriptions though
Mattpat got fucking annoying
Goomba is like looking in the trash and finding something somewhat interesting at least
I really wish someone would sponsor this guy so he could make videos more often. Hes the only guy on that channel who isn't a complete faggot
>>337722220
>>337723236
>complete faggot-mind
Yeah, but I think Matpat makes him edit all his shit so he never gets to do anything
>>337721969
>it's only a 2d map plus height information
>implying height isn't a dimension
>even showing projectiles going over your head without connecting
Sure it's using some fancy wizardry and has its limitations, but the end result is still a 3d world.
>>337722804
>>337722603
this, and it's not only about rendering; if you try firing projectiles high above you, they will usually hit the wall or ceiling of the room, or other obstacles on the way. You also cannot attack enemies completely concealed by the walls, waiting on an elevator or something.
Doom's engine is so far more advanced compared to Wolf3D, it's hard to call it "2D" in any sort of way. At least Wolf3D's maps really consisted of a flat plane with a 2D grid, where each cell could only hold 1 object or a wall.
3D is a gameplay term, not a programming one.
This guy is an idiot and tried to look smart but failed
>>337721969
>>337722603
>>337722804
The video is wrong and to say "It's just an illuuuuuusion" is stupid as fuck. Wolfenstein you can argue because there is no Z/height component whatsoever, but Doom has a bunch--projectiles, lifts, flying enemies, enemy heights (there are only "infinitely tall" in the sense that you can't walk over them). You can have primitive platforming in Doom even without jumping in a source port. It doesn't matter how the game is handling it under the hood. And the fact that he keeps saying "but in memory" just makes it sound like he doesn't understand computers. The memory for a true 3D game is just a bunch of stored numbers too.
>>337724015
This man is correct. Height matters in Doom in a bunch of ways. No, the engine does not have a true 3D rendered. Yes, the game is 3 dimensional not only visually but mechanically.
>>337721969
well, I guess that technically the PS1 didn't have any 3d games neither.
>>337725056
Those were polygons though
>>337721969
>that jump from Wolfenstein to quake in just 4 years
Holy fuck what.
Good video OP, interesting watch.
>>337721969
I don't know why but it irks me when people say "hud" and not "aych-yoo-dee"
>>337721969
While his information is on point, I don't agree with his argument that Doom and Wolfenstein aren't 3D games, no.
>>337725056
Well you're guessing wrong.
>>337724724
>>337724461
This is some top-tier legitimate autism. It's clear the video was about it not being technically 3D, which is true. If you watched the video he uses an example early on to say exactly this.
>>337722220
and the only guy who didn't get the memo about 10 years ago
>>337721969
By his logic no PS1 games are 3D.
>>337721969
Technically DOOM is 2.5D.
Ultima Underworld was fully 3D. There's a reason why Doom ran so fast on hardware that would barely handle Underworld.
>>337728559
They are, the PS1 is just shit at rendering 3D without making it look like a jerky mess. Doom isn't a 3D game under the hood, don't know why everyone is getting triggered for someone saying that fact and nothing else.
>>337721969
>do you agree
>do you agree with a fact
How the fuck do you disagree with a fact?
>>337729187
They are 3D*
Before anyone gets any more confused than they already are.
>>337729187
His whole argument is Doom isn't 3D because it doesn't use proper 3D rendering. The PS1 doesn't do proper 3D rendering.
>>337729843
No, his argument is that Doom isn't 3D because it renders 2D images in a way that looks like 3D. The fact that the PS1 can run Quake 2 should give you a hint to your sheer levels of idiocy.
For one thing, it's not 2D, does the game have stairs, ramps or changes in elevation? Well then it's not 2D.
It is 3D. Just because something isn't rendered doesn't mean it's not 3D. Sure, the z-axis is fixed, but it's still a function of v=a*d where v is volume, a is area and d is depth, or height in our situation. What's this supposed to prove?
2.5D games ran incredibly fast, and when retrofitted with HD textures, they look beautiful. It scares me that the indie game genre has failed to make any 2.5 games, and instead just make a bunch of 16-bit shit.
>>337730015
Does it have three dimensions? It's fucking 3D.
>>337730515
We're talking about rendering techniques here you fucking idiot. Yes, Doom is a 3D game but under the hood it's actually 2D and that is a complete and utter fact.
>>337730401
This is about the way Doom is rendered, which if you've read or watched anything about it's development you'd know is not the traditional polygonally-based rendering something like Quake had.
>>337730751
So basically it's a simpleton using innacuracies to explain something complicated to other simpletons? Got it.
>>337730885
Except he doesn't do any of that. It's a video clearly stating facts, you're the simpleton for saying "it looks 3D therefore it's rendered in 3D!" like a fucking baby who thinks someone's disappeared if they're out of view.
Why are you so damn triggered by well-documented facts that he actually praises as making a 3D game from 2D rendering in an ingenious manner?
>>337730885
It's a person explaining facts that other people may find interesting (or throw an autistic hissyfit about, apparently).
You guys are a bunch of fucking autists jesus christ, he's only using the "doom isn't 3D" argument to show how it handles rendering in a clever way, but /v/ doesn't have a single bit of reading comprehension to understand this fact.
>>337729329
Being american
What are bots even trying to accomplish anymore?
>>337728559
there are a few ps1 games that emulate a z buffer in software so that's not an entirely true statement
>>337731132
Yes, it uses ray casting from a 2D graph paper, so fucking what? It looks 3d. My guess is that he uses this explanation to niggers when they ask why they can't see their feet or why the weapons look static or some dumb shit.
Well documented facts, huh? How about fucking hands-on experience? Figure out who's saying what real quick.
why is /v/ ok with blatant shilling of loud, obnoxious e-celebs?
>You can't shoot up and down because it's a 2D engine
>Game has projectiles and hitscan weapons alike accurately hit detect in the Z axis
>You can even aim freely in Heretic
This guy is a faggot.
>>337721969
I guess I agree
great video
>>337731957
You know you could at least try and watch the video.
>>337731770
which games anon?, I'm curious
>>337731920
Once again, why are you so triggered by someone making a video of how Doom's rendering technique is not actually 3D rendering?
And if you'd just watch the video you'd know it's not raycasting, that's only Wolf 3D.
Since you're just repeating yourself let me reiterate. You are a practical baby arguing that because someone's gone behind the couch he's disappeared from existince, because "fucking hands-on experience!"
>>337732087
That's my argument, why don't you fuck with dumb hippo >>337731132
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhmvIykT_8g
relevant I guess
>>337724724
AN A PRESS IS JUST AN A PRESS
doom is 3d t bh
>>337721969
Why I should disagree ?
It's a fucking fact. There is nothing to argue about.
>>337732087
Got a link proving that Doom was actually rendered using polygonal 3D shapes with relatively detailed texture work? Care to show how a game like that could possibly run on a fucking SNES of all things.
There's no agreement to be had. DOOM is factually, technically, literally not a 3D game.
>>337732229
You're arguing over semantics. I am just as easily making the argument that you are some sort of ideological pilgrim hippie because you a) bring a negative connotation to babies, and b) use practical as an insult, it was very explicit, actually.
My point being, The guy's a faggot because he called it 2D instead of 2.5D. Zelda is not Duke Nukem.
>>337732424
actually it is 3d
>>337726790
>"this is autism!"
>the 11 minute video making a case based on nothing but technicalities is not
ok
>>337732503
2.5D is just another way of saying it's 2D
>>337732424
It's also not a 2D game, as the commoner would assume. Don't make anti-commoner statements without expecting some retard going around with it for all the wrong reasons. It's like 4 wheel drive, tell them what's wrong and right, two wheel drive, tell them what's wrong, or what's right, not both. Catch-22
No games are 3d because it's all just pictures strung together.
There. Can I make an epic contrarian youtube channel now?
>>337732680
With a 0.5. 0.005 amps can't kill you, 0.025 amps can.
>>337732809
Technically, real life isn't 3D because Virtual Reality.
>>337732503
Except it's not 2.5D, it's 2D. None of the game is rendered in 3D, it's as 2D as Zelda but just much, much more advanced.
This isn't semantics, it's hard fact that cannot be disproved since Id themselves coded it that way. It's a 3D game in the way it plays but not in the way it's rendered, same way 2.5D platformers like DKCR are 2D games rendered in 3D.
>>337732809
In the first MINUTE of the video he says this isn't what it means. The first MINUTE.
maybe it's 4d
>>337732938
>Doom isn't 2.5D
I'm sorry, I really am, but this statement is bonkers.
>>337732301
Here's another video showing off how it works: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0W65ScZmQw
But since it's clear people don't want to watch the OP video, I doubt they'd watch either of these.
>>337731606
what am i even looking at here
>>337733104
It isn't 2.5D because 2.5D means nothing when it comes to rendering. A game is either rendered in 3D or rendered in 2D, Doom is the latter no matter how much it's made to look 3D. How is this so difficult to understand?
>>337723353
Essentially what happened. Matpat at the end of the day is actually smart.
Convinced a bunch of other smaller channels to do content for GT and then roped them in to being his editors rather than pushing out their own content.
Gaijin is a little more well off since his wife does his editing and helps with his research and shit.
>>337732938
>In the first MINUTE of the video he says this isn't what it means. The first MINUTE.
>Epic youtube e-celeb man gets to define terms
Cool. There's no point in having this conversation if people can make terms what they want them to be. There's no point in having the conversation at all, really. It all comes down to how you define it.
>Does the game present the illusion of 3D? It's 3D.
>Does the engine render the game with an X, Y, and Z planes? Doom is not 3D.
>Video games are rendered pictures strung together. No video games are 3D.
>>337721969
The video 11 minutes too long.
It should have started and ended with "Doom is 2.5D"
Did you know that most games are not really 3D but rather a projection onto a 2D screen? Mind blown right?
It's like arguing that in super mario it's not actually mario that's moving, it's the world scrolling away. If you look at the game engine it's technically true, but it still looks very much like he's moving forward when you're playing. It's smoke and mirrors all the way down.
>>337732938
If he just made a clearer distinction between 3D rendering vs 3D gameplay this could have been avoided.
>>337733229
So you're telling me that Doom is top down 2-D shooter with the likes fucking Galaga and Galaxian? Because if not, then your existence is moot.
>>337732938
Rendering has nothing to do with it. It's a 2.5D because you can't jump or fly. There is a slight variation of height in the levels, but you mostly just go up stairs which is just a bit fancier than flat land but serves no gameplay purpose.
>>337721969
Now if only he could explain why level design in the average modern FPS have stooped so far in cleverness and complexity.
>>337733473
You can jump in 2.5D. Duke Nukem 3D ring a bell?
Of course its not 3d you fucking yard. Quake is
>>337733563
>Duke Nukem 3D is 2.5D
>Nukem 3D is 2.5D
>3D is 2.5D
>3D 2.5D
Are you legally retarded?
>>337733574
Quake isn't 3D, it's shit.
>>337733574
Quake is only 2.8D because it has ugly textures
>>337733309
He isn't trying to define terms, putting in buzzwords won't make this true. He's specifically talking about how the game is rendered in a way that makes it look like it's a 2D game.
>>337733354
That is literally what he says, that's it a 2D game pretending to be 3D. Why are you so triggered by someone saying how a game works under the hood?
>>337733459
That's not what I, or he, is saying at all. To the computer that's what it sees, but through rendering trickery the images that come out have the illusion of proper polygonal 3D rendering.
>>337733374
No, if you weren't an idiot it could have been avoided.
>>337733473
>Rendering has nothing to do with it
WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW THE GAME IS RENDERED. NOT HOW IT LOOKS, OR HOW IT PLAYS. HOW IT'S RENDERED!
>>337733683
>He doesn't know what Duke Nukem 3D is
Bonkers
>>337723131
Goombah got a lot more tolerable when he started using his real voice
>>337733683
Duke Nukem 3D is still a 2.5D shooter. Hell, Heretic - which was basically Doom with fantasy monsters and weapons - had flying and the ability to look up and down (which cause display distortions in older clients that sort of game away the engine's limitations). Again, the basis behind this is the game's engine, not its presentation to the player.
>>337733819
Rendering has nothing to do with it. Toy Story was rendered, that shit's a 2D film.
>>337733881
You didn't need those special powers to see the limitations, just look at the upper corners of any room, it's distorted as fuck.
>>337733819
>He isn't trying to define terms, putting in buzzwords won't make this true. He's specifically talking about how the game is rendered in a way that makes it look like it's a 2D game.
He is. To frame his argument, he is defining 3D towards the rendering angle. He who defines the terms, wins the argument. In terms of the rendering, yes, the game isn't true 3D. But there are multiple angles to take this discussion. That's only one. You could make an argument that Doom presents the illusion of 3D seamlessly, thus it's a 3D game despite the smoke and mirrors.
>>337733231
Didn't they got divorced?
>>337733976
they re-released it in 3d in 2009
>>337734250
But it has a fixed depth field for the glasses. You could say it was a 2.5D film, but unless it was 360 view, it couldn't be 3D.
>>337734250
>>337733976
The video isn't about how the end product looks, it's about how the game's engine makes those images appear 3D when they actually aren't.
Toy Story is a 3D animated film because it was rendered in 3D, whereas The Lion King is a 2D animated film because it was "rendered" (or drawn) in 2D. Both are presented as 2D films but what's under the hood of their creation is very different.
>>337734115
There shouldn't be any discussion because the video was, if you'd watch it, clearly about the rendering technique and that alone. Doom is a 3D game in the way it plays because you move around a seemingly 3D space, but under the hood it's completely 2D rendered in such an amazingly clever way to create a 3D illusion.
That is literally what the video is about, I don't know why you or anyone else here can't get that.
Should the video have been called "Doom WASN'T rendered in 3D, it was actually rendered in 2D in a way that looked like 3D to the end user!" so people like you would understand?
>>337733819
The problem here is he called it "not 3D" when the game clearly plays like one to a human. The rendering isn't true 3D but to the player it appears close enough. This would be like if I said "Mario isn't really how he appears in Super Mario Brothers because he is actually four spites combined into a meta sprite from the NES PPU".
>10 minutes to explain that doom used sprites
literally fuck off holy shit
if what you have to say can be condensed into a tweet then just fucking tweet it
It doesn't matter how it's rendered, what matters is how it plays out.
Can you move in the third dimension? Yes.
Can you shoot in the third dimension? Yes.
Does the AI properly navigate in the third dimension? Yes.
Well then it is a 3D game.
Look at the opposite, a sidescroller with 3D graphics is still a 2D game.
The video is half-informative and half-bullshit. While he does spend large parts of it breaking down how it renders areas in an interesting manner (not rivaling, say, Ahoy, but what'll you do), his actual thesis is nonsense. Projectiles in the game are tracked on the Z-axis (as shown while he was talking about how the 3D was fake, so that was interesting), the world is 3D, and its core design was the basis for the majority of future 3D FPS games.
If you want to watch something interesting about Doom, watch Ahoy's video on it.
>>337734754
It's about the map rendering, not sprites, you mongoloid. That's what gave the illusion of 3D back in the day.
>>337721969
Ronny better get paid fucking great by MatPat because without him he wouldn't be where he is today. All that fuckin editing is ridiculous.
>>337721969
Technically most games are 2D because the screens they are displayed on are only capable of displaying 2 dimensions.
>>337725535
Saying "hud" is correct. Perhaps you are bothered because you have been saying it incorrectly for years and don't like the idea that you were wrong the whole time.
>>337726790
but then what the fuck is the point in his video? Literally at all?
It isn't 3D in the slightest.
It's more like one of those top-down shooters, but viewed from the perspective of the guy with the gun.
the engine isn't capable of rendering space above or below existing space.
Unmodified Doom has infinite height actors as well, you can't jump over an imps head, for example.
>>337734634
Because the game isn't 3D, and that's a fact. Sure it might look 3D to the end user but it isn't. The title of the video may be clickbait but it is presenting an irrefutable fact and nothing else.
What you said about Mario is also true, but it makes a much less interesting video since we know that Mario is just a collection of sprites. Many people still think Doom was rendered in 3D when it's not.
If Doom was actually rendered in proper 3D like Quake then there would be no way in hell that something as weak as a SNES could run the game.
>>337734875
You can't do any of those things in Doom without a sourceport. You don't shoot in the 3rd dimension, you shoot on one axis and even if the rocket/bullet looks like it's travelling on the z-axis it's still only travelling on the x or y.
>>337734917
See my above point.
>>337735193
His point in the video was to explain something interesting that many people might not have known about. I didn't know about how Doom's environments were rendered before it.
>>337734562
Are they? Seems like they're all flat images generated with math. Sounds like you're the autistic nigger man baby.
>>337734562
>Should the video have been called something that isn't clickbait
Yes. And thank you for agreeing with me.
>>337734562
>That is literally what the video is about, I don't know why you or anyone else here can't get that.
PROTIP: Everybody "gets" what was said, the argument at hand is whether or not such asinine semantic finagling is of any merit when the only people who find it interesting are pedantic cunts.
>>337735450
actually it is 3d
see: >>337734917
>>337734917
He also fixates a lot on binary space partitioning, when all it does is optimization and has nothing to do with whether the game is 3D nor not.
>>337735460
>irrefutable fact
It is refutable by not accepting your definition of a "3D game" which is easy to do since you made it up.
>>337735460
>See my above point.
Your above point is still contrary to the way the actual game works. It still tracks projectiles in 3D.
>>337735460
>Sure it might look 3D to the end user but it isn't
So like I said, Mario isn't actually how he appears because he is technically a meta sprite and meta sprites aren't sprites because I said so.
>>337735737
>there's a z-axis
>b-b-but it's not 3d guys! it's 2d pretending to be 3d! which is always what 3d rendering is!
>>337721969
If you can't or have no interest in programming don't worry about it. You would have to be a complete autist to argue with a consumer over calling it 3D, they buy the games, they get to call it whatever they want.
>>337735818
But there isn't a z-axis. Nothing in the game's code handles relative z coordinates.
>>337735510
You know what I mean, and how many times do I have to say that we're talking exclusively about rendering methods here?
>>337735583
How about people who might want to learn about an interesting and groundbreaking method of creating the illusion of 3D?
>>337735681
I'm not talking about 3D games or 2D games, I'm talking about 3D RENDERED games vs. 2D RENDERED games.
>>337735737
No it doesn't, if you watched the webm you'd see that the projectile was avoided, he didn't actually go under it. Show me an example of someone who moves in the z-axis to avoid a projectile and you'll have a point.
Seriously, where is there any evidence that Doom was rendered as a polygonal 3D game like Quake? There's masses of interviews with Carmack himself, surely you'd find one example proving your point in those.
>>337735783
Yes, but the video was about what the computer sees. The computer doesn't see a plumber running around, it sees 4 sprites that need to be moved around.
>>337736078
watch this webm >>337734917
doom is 3d
>>337736078
That's factually wrong. Wolf3D has no Z axis, but Doom has it. All floors have a z value assigned to them, which offsets them on your screen. It's still a 2D calculation with a simple offset, which makes it 2.5D.
>>337735615
I'm gong to nitpick here and say "That imp ball did not fly directly over your head, which is why it missed."
Had it gone directly over your head, you would have taken damage.
>>337736167
>>337736078
http://www.classicdoom.com/doommyth.htm#01
This could apply to the entire thread, really.
>>337736078
>actors are infinitely tall to handle the z-axis
>there's no z-axis
but there is. you can shoot at things above and below you. the fact that a shortcut is taken does not mean there isn't a z-axis being considered.
>game theory
Oh hell no, OP. Fuck off and take that faggot with you.
>>337735460
>Sure, Quake might look 3D to the end user, but it's really just a bunch of code being executed and creating a one dimensional series of data that is then sent to the display controller, Quake is a 1D game
This is how stupid you sound.
>>337736167
>I'm not talking about 3D games or 2D games, I'm talking about 3D RENDERED games vs. 2D RENDERED games.
No, you are being intellectually dishonest and trying to change the conversation to sound smart.
>>337736167
>but the video was about what the computer sees
So when the computer sees a game as 2D but presents it in such a way that it looks 3D to the player its still 2D, but when an NES presents four sprites moving together its a single sprite?
It is technically 2d, but effectively 3d.
>>337729371
there isnt a z axis in the game because its in 2.5d
>>337736265
>grasping at straws this hard
Have you ever actually fucking played Doom?
If you run under a projectile that is directly above you, it will not hit you.
The game has 3D mechanics. It is a 3D game.
>>337721969
everyone knows that
>>337736481
It's impossible to make a 2.5D game without a z axis. Fake or not, the height information has to be available in one way or another.
>>337736481
>there isnt a z axis
watch this webm: >>337734917
doom is 3d
>>337736345
You know exactly what I meant, please stop being so obtuse.
>>337736354
This is what the conversation has been all along. Each and every one of you is basically saying "hurr I see it in 3D on the screen so the computer must render it in 3D!"
>>337736386
When an NES presents four sprites moving together we see it as Mario walking across the screen. The NES's hardware isn't rendering Mario as one whole entity, the same way a computer running Doom isn't rendering E1M1 as a polygonal 3D environment.
>>337736481
2.5d is a nothing term when it comes to actual rendering.
>>337736167
>How about people who might want to learn about an interesting and groundbreaking method of creating the illusion of 3D?
Those people would have already looked up one of the eighteen hundred website writeups on the subject, not a video by an e-celeb using a snappy but ultimately meaningless title.
>>337736265
>Had it gone directly over your head, you would have taken damage.
try actually playing the game before you spout garbage
>>337736767
>This is what the conversation has been all along.
No, you are subtly shifting your position so that you don't "lose."
>>337736814
If they didn't know about it how would they look it up?
>>337736864
I have never been losing because I'm arguing for an irrefutable fact against people who have no semblance of what that fact means. Nobody has presented ANY evidence to show that Doom is rendered with traditional 3D techniques exclusively. It has a Z-axis, but that doesn't mean the game is being rendered in 3D and it never will.
>>337721969
>all these idiots in this thread who cant fucking comprehend that Zelda and Doom are indeed both rendered in 2D just because they look different
any food analogies ?
>>337737187
No, you are plain wrong and plenty of people have demonstrated why. You are wrong on every level.
>>337737187
>Nobody has presented ANY evidence to show that Doom is rendered with traditional 3D techniques exclusively
Because nobody is trying to claim that?
>>337736767
>The NES's hardware isn't rendering Mario as one whole entity
Actually it is, its called a meta sprite and makes programming them way less time consuming.
>>337737208
Everything is rendered in 2d because holograms don't fucking exist.
How it's rendered doesn't mean jack shit, what's important is how it plays.
All of the projectiles are tracked in 3d space, you can run under them and over them without getting hit.
For all intents and purposes, DOOM is a 3d game. Claiming it's anything less isn't even nitpicking, it's blatant delusional dishonesty.
>>337721969
The thumbnail is as clickbait as anything else on the channel, but this video does provide only facts.
He even remarks that id Software were geniuses for being able to fake a 3D space in such a way that wouldn't need a souped up PC to render.
I hope that guy that made this video quits game theory.
He edits and has a decent voice. He can make it.
Can you imagine what this guy has to go through when editing for Matpat?
Matpat self inserts himself in every fucking video its disgusting. Imagine the look on this kids face when he has to edit that shit.
>>337737443
>plenty of people have demonstrated why
Who? All I see are idiots misunderstanding a
fact.
>>337737518
Huh, well I didn't know that. Didn't know if you, or the other guy, said Mario was actually 4 seperate sprites though.
>>337737540
if it was a real 3d game you would be able to aim up and down
>>337728559
Wild Arms 2 Millennium Puzzle
>>337721969
>some guy made a video pointing out a bunch of obvious shit
yeah good post OP
>>337733870
Holy fuck, this. I already can't stand it when people use the pitched voices but then you combine it with his kawaai uguu anime faces goomba avatar and shit just got cringy as hell. It really made him come off as a total and complete weeaboo.
>>337724015
I thought that wasn't true, that rockets could hit you if you were directly under them and you can punch people/monsters can claw you from the top of a lift. At least in vanilla/chocolate Doom.
>>337737841
And you can, Heretic did this with the same engine.
>>337738002
heretic isn't doom
>>337721969
theres no 3d rendering so itd not 3d
>>337738043
There is no difference anyway. All Heretic does is allow you to aim manually. Doom aims vertically for you, but it is vertical nonetheless.
>>337738002
Care to post a video of you being able to look up and down without the view being incredibly distorted? That still happens in Doom.
>>337721969
>ITS NOT 3D!!!!1!
>yet home consoles couldnt handle it properly for a decade
wew
ITT: autism
>>337738390
That's because whilst it's not 3D the way it's rendered is a whole lot more taxing than something strictly 2D like Mario. 2D rendering doesn't completely remove any possible hardware limitations.
>>337721969
He starts out with bait bullshit, but then gets into some really interesting design mechanics.
Carmack really is a brilliant guy.
>>337738340
The perspective is besides the point, what matters is that you can control your aim vertically, and that they are simulated as they should in a 3D world.
Why doesn't someone just send a tweet to carmack asking if Doom is 3D or 2D? This thread could be saged immediately
>>337738585
true 3D consoles couldnt even handle it. shouldnt real 3d be more taxing than fake 3d
>>337738792
Tweeted.
>>337738720
They aren't simulated as they should because the view gets horribly distorted since the 2D rendering technique can't handle it that well. It's still rendering in 2D even if, in game, you're looking up and down.
>>337738792
Or just go on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_engine
>>337738895
What true 3D consoles? Because both the N64 and PS1 handled it amazingly. Just because Doom is 2D didn't mean it wasn't hard to run, there's still all the lighting, AI, textures, etc to contend with. It was just much much less taxing than something like Quake would have been at the time.
>>337739207
>Or just go on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doom_engine
Then why are people discussing this?
The projectiles are 3d.
The projectiles are 3d.
The projectiles are tracked in 3D.
The projectiles are tracked in FUCKING 3D.
Why are we still having this fucking conversation
>>337739321
Can a projectile miss if directly above you?
This >>337734917 webm clearly shows that he was slightly to the left.
>hurr the projectile flies over his head
So do the projectiles in a Lttp if link is under a cliff, doesn't mean it's 3d you retards.
>>337734917
>>337739321
See >>337739420
Clearly lttp is 3D too
>>337739261
Because people are too stupid to even watch the video in the OP. Do actual research? Hell no.
>>337739321
They aren't, and since the game doesn't have any overlapping rooms (since it's not 3D) there's no way to prove it.
What you're actually seeing with projectiles in Doom are overlapping sprites.
>>337739415
>Can a projectile miss if directly above you?
Yes, they can. Go play the game you fucking idiot
How does Doom know to render different textures on the side of things? For example the path at 7:05 has a green glow on the sides from the goo, but on the 2D map he shows after that texture isn't there.
>>337739612
>Go play the game
No
>>337739583
You can run under a projectile without hitting it.
You can run over a projectile without hitting it (rare situation, but can happen).
That can't be done without tracking its Z coordinate in 3D space.
Doom is fucking 3D.
>>337739207
Looking up and down is irrelevant. It could simply be the weapon sprite moving instead. It's the aim itself that is relevant here, and both Hexen and Doom make use of it, with the latter just not being in the player's direct control.
>>337739614
Basically in the "node" system Doom has if the computer sees that the player is looking at nodes x, y and z it will render what's in those nodes relative to the player's current viewpoint.
Here's a video showing how it's done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhmvIykT_8g
>>337739849
Care to post any examples? Because your only evidence is speculation whereas mine are known facts about the game's engine.
>>337739849
You don't need a Z coordinate for that to happen. How did 2D games of old know if you're on a higher ground compared to a lower ground? There are 2D games whose enemies on higher ground can't hit you with projectiles if you're on a lower ground
I mean that's true. The visuals display a 3d world but raw programming behind it is 2d. It's a fascinating bit of programming genius how they did that shit back then.
The real question is though: Who is arguing otherwise? I hate "shouting at the wall" arguments. People who go on for hours and hours like they've got a point to make long after everyone already accepted what he said as true.
>>337739420
>An if statement on a cliff is the same as tracing a projectile with an an arbitrary direction
If Doom has a Z axis than how is it not a 3D game?
>>337739985
The example is the game itself, go fucking play it.
There's an imp on a cliff in the second room for fuck's sake
>>337728559
pic related
Furthermore, Matpat has essentially abandoned the channel for Film Theory which is already fucking retarded. Streaming is worthless if you ask me since it's not viewable after the fact.
Ronny is a bro and actually someone you can relate to in some capacity.gaijin goombah backed mighty number 9 and im laffin
>>337740478
because autistic hipsters want to be contrarian even when they're demonstrably wrong
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRTsl1jCqq8
better topic
>>337722220
Matt is pretty cool.
He was my RA in college.
>>337740438
>depth variable is the same as a z-axis
by that logic all game maker games are 3d too
>>337739985
>>337740849
http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Z-clipping
>>337739985
Fuck off, claiming a projectile flying over you will hit you is speculation (and also wrong)
>>337740983
That's just clipping, but it says nothing about tracing.
>>337740891
>He was my RA in college.
?
i heard the game was actually 7d
http://www.strawpoll.me/10206223/r
>>337740062
>How did 2D games of old know if you're on a higher ground compared to a lower ground?
A Z coordinate.
Though the difference is those Z coordinates maybe only had 1 or 2 different steps, and not many physics considerations needed as projectiles would never traverse between two layers.
In Doom however, z-collision is done by incrementing the coordinate and then checking the collision. This is how x and y coordinates are also handled. Objects have both radius and height defined. Free movement in 3 axes = 3D
>>337735664
Sure it does. Hardware at that time wouldn't have been able to handle the processing needed to track the relationships between 3D objects.
The binary tree usage was used to save even more processing in a 2D map with extruded borders w/ bitmaps on them such that you aren't required to draw things behind on things.
>>337741473
Do you even know what tracing is? Tracing is for hitscans, which also travel in 3D space in Doom.
>>337741607
Hey, tell me what Quake's map file extension is. Go on, I'll wait.
Binary space partitioning has nothing to do with whether a map is 2D or 3D.
>>337741473
clipping means objects can pass through eachother on the 2d map if their z-coordinate is not the same
even though the engine is 2d, this is effectively a 3d mechanic, meaning the game is technically 3d
>>337741762
It's not just their z-coordinate, it checks collisions based on their height values as well, just like how it checks collisions based on radius in x and y axes. No difference.
>>337739985
That's probably because collision detection with projectiles/hitscans/blast radii is not related to how the game is rendered. For the fireball, all you'd have to do is compare a height value + radius and the player height value + radius. Very simple arithmetic.
>Using billboards isn't 3D
>The qualification is using 3D rendered models and not a third spatial dimension
Well okay.
>using faces for map design doesn't mean it's a 3d game
>using a third dimension for objects/projectiles doesn't mean it's three dimensional either
Mouth breather is trolling for free Youtube hits on Doom release week, what else is new
>>337741860
Just because it's simple doesn't mean it's not a 3D mechanic
3 planes is the very definition of 3D. And since Doom tracks all 3, it is 3D
>>337741483
>Resident Assistants (RAs) are integral to the operation of our residence halls, and therefore are asked to fill a variety of roles ranging from friend and resource to programmer and peer advisor.
I'm glad I'm not the only one old enough to remember that ID make this point themselves WITH quake and Unreal used it as a marketing point for their game? I watched 10 seconds of this and thought "yeah no shit"
You must reject the faulty premise to understand the stupidity of this video. The virtual boy, named for virtual reality right? Its not virtual. Fuck he even uses a hilarious example of saying that he's not suggesting the 3DS is a true 3D. Know why? BECAUSE IT ISN'T FUCKING ACTUALLY 3D EITHER.
In short he's asking people to condemn calling doom 3D when a) it was as relatively cutting-edge as a 3DS was in terms of emulating a concept and b) nothing in a contemporary fashion is 3D either.
This absurd mountain of logic can be applied to the entire board /3/. Nothing in /3/ is actually 3D either. It is our best current realization of the concept in a 2D world. Doom was at the time, Wolfenstein was at the time, Quake was, AT. THE. FUCKING. TIME.
Aside from that he's probably fine.
>>337742359
lol shut up nerd
>>337742359
A 3D printer is 3D anon.
>>337742521
Print a game on it, and this guy will suck your dick.
>>337742359
I'm telling mom.
>>337742176
Yeah, but my shitty game uses a z-axis for some calculations. Does that make it a 3D game?
Even though the physics are calculated in 3 dimensions, the graphics are only rendered in two. Same goes for Doom.
Anyway, here's a much better video on the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQYsFshbkYw
>>337743035
I would argue that it's still a 3d mechanic even if it's presented in 2d
but doom's presentation is 3d, you have to worry about these projectiles all the time or you'll get killed
not sure how your game plays so I can't really comment
>>337721969
Is nerdy clickbait the worst kind of clickbait??
>>337731132
In case you're just one guy posting this stuff I figured I'd chime in and say you're not alone friend. I'm reading through this thread and the amount of idiot replies you've already gone through this far would have made me rage out and go back to lurking.
>>337733152
God I wish I knew.
>"The level is actually just flat"
>Walks under projectile
>>337743035
His voice sounds like a fucking TTS program.
b-b-but ID INVENTED 3D!!
>>337732414
There's a screenshot up on the H-Doom development site where the author managed to get the game to draw an actual 3d shape. So the game is capable of that.
>>337732654
getting triggered by the word autism is pretty autistic thought
>/v/ pretends to understand game engines
Nice a cringe thread
