What do you guys think of talent trees? Are they good or bad for ARPGs?
I'm starting to make an ARPG and want to know what you guys think.
I'm thinking about just making it so skill/spells level up when used (from 0 to 100) and go from 70% (min level) to 120% (max level) effectiveness or something like that. Each level would require more use than the last.
>>337368952
If the alternative is skyrims shitty system or WoWs pruning i'll take talent trees. I have no problem with them
Do you like the way diablo 2 did it?
Perhaps you have an alternative suggestion? I'm open to ideas.
D2 style active tree with PoE's passive tree customization
>>337369236
meant to reply to >>337369075
>>337368952
Feat or perk system is better. Then again I don't lile Diablo games
>>337369375
like*
![Zccdm9G[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/4w0z2m7.jpg "Zccdm9G[1].png")
>>337368952
Path of Exile is proof that talent trees can be good if done right.
>>337369913
It always seemed overly complex to me, but customization is really cool to experiment with.
I guess since my game will be smaller than PoE I can make it look a little less...daunting.
>>337369913
I really enjoyed the concept of this tree, but a lot of the nodes were just "+5 base stat" and that's a bit of a cop out considering how much praise it gets based on how intricate it may seem.
>>337369301
This.
/thread.
>>337369375
AHAAHAHHAAHAHAHAAHAHHAAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA
what did you expect your barbarian to have a silencer or iron sight attachment like your shitty COD games?
Fuck off cunt it's A-RPG, not A-'shooter-aimed-at -5thgraders'.
stupid fuck, cunts like you need to be shot. You are what's wrong with everything in this world.
>>337368952
Talent trees are awesome, especially if they allow for multiple different unique builds that are all viable. One of the reasons to make several different characters of the same class in the same game
>>337370839
You can't really consider those talents or skills or whatever, they're more like paths to the important stuff.
>>337370381
It's amazing. They've literally given you hundreds of lego blocks and said "we don't know what the builds in this game will be or what your character will be capable of, you figure it out".
You can build characters that are extremely unique and fun to play.
Like this kind of tree allows you to build tanks that can ONLY tank AOE damage, and not single target.
You can play characters who's sole role is to sit in parties and last hit the boss to make it drop better loot. And your party will love you for it. You're sole role is simply to improve loot.
You can have characters that use their life to cast spells instead of mana... and then characters that lifesteal using their spells..
There are spells that do something like 20% of your health to everyone including yourself as damage, and kill you in 5 seconds. And there are other things that spec'd correctly avoid, mitigate or completely turn that spell around.
The amount of options is absolutely nuts and i sorely wish EVERY RPG, including MMORPGs began thinking about talents like this.
Instead of this "Pick 1 of 3" nonsense.
>>337371391
Yeah I know there were minor and major nodes mechanically speaking, but most of my path were base stats and it underwhelmed me a bit. Still a good concept, other games should build on it. The best thing I have to say about this is how it makes me want to spend hours to draw out paths using character builders. Really neat for theory crafting, experimenting and planning.
>>337368952
Best way to level up. I would suggest only using talent trees and make them open ended. Talent points add a small percentage to the overall improvement of a particular talent but the experience cost per talent level increases exponentially. Instead of rewarding a skill point with each level you can instead purchase talent points levels with accumulated experience points.
No starting classes, instead job talents can be unlocked by doing job related quests or unlocking job related NPCs that will "teach" the player new talents.
I appreciate all of the input, thanks everyone.
>>337371109
Do you think that having a set class at the very start of the game goes along well with this?
I was leaning more towards having people start classless and then either have the choice of doing a beginner story series (where they could be given the option to use a starter skill/spell from each class) & then going to a shrine/temple for a specific class, or they could just skip the beginning part.
The actual talent tree for that class, along with non-starter skills/spells would be learn-able after that.
>>337371604
I will take some time to look more closely at PoE's tree and builds. It's been a while since I've played it so it's probably best I see what's changed too.
>>337371723
For this type of system, would talents translate to skills/spells, to passive bonuses, or both?
>>337371056
Are you retarded or merely pretending?RPGs have had perks for decades.
>>337368952
i dont mind them but i feel their popularity has let some other fun ways to level up go by the wayside
>>337371056
>perks are from call of duty
Kill yourself underage.
>>337369236
I think diablo 2 and WoW's way of doing it is my favorite, but it turns a lot of people off as well. People see it as old. I think the system of specializing and getting specific rewards pertaining to your specialization is good, but that people don't like to see that classic talent tree lay out.
>>337369375
This is what I mean by shit i dont like. Perks or feats. Not in an ARPG.
>>337369913
This is an example of doing one really well, but all it is is just a different way of laying it out.
>>337372272
You building a game OP?
>>337368952
I like them, but their is always a cookie cutter build. So in the end they become kind of pointless.
PoE has a cool web though
>>337369236
I don't like when you have prerequisites for basic spells like Diablo 2. Like if you want Whirlwind you have to put a point into jump.
Titan quest/Grim Dawn do it better, every skill is unlockable directly, then you put points in upgrades of that skill.
>>337372272
I was thinking both on related skill paths. Each path (example: sword) would have base passive skills that would improve either damage or critical chance and as you continue to add more points in that path it unlocks higher skills (active or passive) that may be upgraded to an infinite damage/effectiveness percentage or can be one-offs but all add to the overall path level. All path levels add to your overall level. Your overall level only contributes to increasing HP (about 1hp per level). Stats will be pre-set depending on what gifts/birth-signs/gods (however you want to do it) you start out with so that some skills will scale better than others depending on your initial stats, that can't be changed after. A character given the gift of intelligence will have slightly better scaling with magic, but isn't locked out of using other non-magic skills.
>>337369913
i much prefer the simplicity and definition of diablo 2's tree. becausr classes don't share skills, each build feels distinct. a lot of poe's builds feel very samey and the tree is nothing more than a noob trap.
An interesting talent tree offers a lot of replay value and keeps you from getting bored because "Oh man I unlock that soon". I really like them.
You can do both talent trees and spells/skills that level up individually. I don't see why it wouldn't work well together.
Good luck anon, what's your game going to be called?
>>337374670
I just read the thread, seems like you're looking for opinions on specifics on people's preferences with both systems. I suggest you look at ToME for talent trees and Elona for skills/spells being leveled up through use, both do a very good job with it and each is their respective games biggest strength. ToME is literally only good because it offers huge customization and diversity through the great, but simple, talent trees. Elona is good for a lot of reasons but the complexity and depth to growing stronger is a major factor. Say you are playing a mage character in Elona, you read a spellbook to get spell charges which trains your literacy skill, the literally skill gives experience to the learning stat when it receives experience. Then you cast the spell which gives experience to that specific spell's level as well as experience to the casting skill, which in turn gives experience to the magic stat the same way literacy gave to learning. Things are all tied together and it means you will always be growing stronger, as well as your growth becoming exponentially faster as time goes on and you gain more resources. It's a fantastic system that makes grinding very rewarding.
>>337369913
I would like this more if each class had a unique tree. I like my classes to be distinct as fuck.
>>337368952
Any system that forces you to waste points on useless early game skills in order to reach the end game skills you'll actually end up relying on is horribly flawed. Diablo 1's system of finding magic books as you explore the dungeon was way better.
>>337375210
>The literally skill
I meant literacy, ironically
>>337374670
Thank you for your feedback. Personally I think so too.
The game is going to be called: Orc Lifes Matter Too
It's about how orcs are being supressed and enslaved by humans and slowly have to fight their way out towards being accepted as members of the society and clear all the racial prejudice. As you can see it's going to be have a strong political message. The main char will be a human male to orc female transgender.
>>337375589
Anon please, I just wanted to have fun talking about video games with you.
>>337375210
>12danything+fuck
>1465% Evasion
nope, dropped
also the system you describe is redundant, since that spell will be used one way or another, there is no real choice there, just making things unnecessarily complicated
>>337376182
The evasion is countered by their hit chance. When they have 1402% hit it makes sense. Also I'm playing a fairy which is based around evasion. I grinded to the point where the game is literally crumbling in on itself from the stupidly high numbers
>Giga bomb rock uses self destruct
>It has so much health it doesn't die
>Shit self in terror
It really isn't. It's a bit over complicated for most games but Elona is based around systems like that so it works well. The spell won't be used one way or another, it gets used depending on your build choice. Casting doesn't increase magic damage it increases your ability to cast higher level spells without failure, which makes sense. Elona is fantastic fuk u
>>337375210
I dislike it when stats get this high, feels like bloat. I much prefer FE or DaS where even a single point matters.
>>337376823
I totally agree but keep in mind I grinded for over 400 hours there. My goal with that character was to beat the "Inner Gods" which are game breaking strong, you aren't really supposed to be able to beat them. Numbers don't usually go quite that high. I prefer things to stay sub-100 number wise too though.
>>337375297
Each class does have a unique tree.
>>337377062
I mean entirely unique, not just the new shit. Also fuck skill gems, too much potential overlap between classes.
Only oldfags like talent trees.
Kids don't like having tough choices, so instead of breaking out the calculator themselves to figure out which talents are best for their build, they'll just google and copy somebody elses' build verbatim.
I believe this is why so many games have removed talent trees altogether.
>>337377179
Even then, each class has a set of specific nodes in the tree where they start and those nodes are generally associated with them.
2 classes, MAYBE 3 if it's a wacky build, will be able to actually profit from these nodes aswell.
Skill gems are one of PoE's most attractive aspects imo.
What's wrong with overlap between classes?
>>337376556
>Elona is fantastic fuk u
Guess that's why nobody ever heard of that game before lel
But seriously it seems like an amalgation of the worst game mechanics ever.
>>337377683
Anon you and I are not friends
I kinda like the Median XL style talent trees. Where you have 6 columns with 5 skills in each, then a 7th column with 3 different superskills of which you only can choose one.
It sounds boring in theory but it's interesting in practise.
