Is Dark Souls hard for the sake of being hard? Or is the difficulty not there for the sake of being difficult?
Not saying there's anything wrong with it, but is it? I know it's fair within it's own rules, but that's not the question.
>>336389170
it's hard for the sake of challenge and satisfaction
then you get good at the game and it isn't even hard
>>336389170
Its not hard.
Most enemies can be parried and backstabs and you see everything to the point of memorization.
Only any idiot can into das in all seriousness.
It's a Japanese game, they do whatever the fuck they want to since creative leads have essentially full control
May as well ask why ninja Gaiden is difficult, it's difficult cuz head nip wants it to be
>>336389170
I think it's carefully scaled to deliver utmost satisfaction when you feel yourself getting good at it. It asks a lot of time of the player, but it rewards that time with skill.
But that's just me. I know a lot of people who just get frustrated and leave it behind.
>>336389170
Just because the game isn't a total walkover, doesn't make it hard. It's challenging but rarely feels unfair. If you die, it's generally because you fucked up. It encourages you to get better, while still never letting you become too OP.
>>336389279
So it's hard for the sake of being hard? (Nothing wrong with that) My question, mainly argument between a friend and I, is "Did they go into the game saying "We have to make this game hard because it should be hard".
Its not hard it's punishing. If you run in like a dumbass you're gonna die. If you take your time and and be patient, analyze enemies and thier moves you'll be fine.
>>336389170
The game is as hard as you want it to be. You can easily cheese it with the right weapons or summoning.
It's opting in for easier difficulty instead of opting in for hard difficulty like most games.
Its not hard, is easy to die that is something, given the proper conditions any enemy can be easily beaten and has alot of mechanics that it allows to beat the game w/out any real effort.
One of my favorite games thought.
>>336389170
It's not hard, it just has obstacles that need to be overcome. They're a necessary part of any good video game, but unfortunately they're becoming less common in modern games.
>>336389170
Miyazaki always stated in interviews that difficulty wasn't the focus but a way of drawing the player into the world and giving them a sense of satisfaction when they overcame an obstacle. Imagine the sense of satisfaction when you first beat O&S for example.
>>336389451
I think it's hard to suit the setting of the game. Imagine how differently people would feel about the enemies and locations if the whole game was a pushover.
>>336389170
The only thing that really struck me as unfair during my first playthrough was getting cursed during a death animation. Aside from that, the rest of it was mostly fair.
>>336389170
No but Dark Souls 3 is
>>336389170
Dark Souls isn't even that hard. Once you get used to it it's like any other game. I went back to DaS 1 for the first time after beating 2 and 3 and I've been steam rolling everything now that I know what I'm doing.
Basically git gud.
>>336389451
No, they were simply translating their earlier games into a third person format. Dungeons crawlers are supposed to have lots of dangerous enemies and traps that force you to take your time and think before approaching a new situation, and that genre has always been their specialty.
>>336389170
This conversation is so stale. It's not hard because it's badly designed. Bow and arrow are the most powerful weapon in the universe when it comes to normal enemies. Pyromancy when it comes to bosses.
If you want the game to be hard yo make it hard for yourself, if not you cheap out. Heck, there's a play the game for me mechanic, how's that hard? The fucking game plays for itself.
>>336389170
The game would play like shit if enemies couldn't fuck you up, you'd just run at every thing and smash R1 and heal as needed, seldom dodging, blocking, parrying, exercising timing/distance, etc. In fact this still happens because the enemies are often slow to react, but we pass it off because they can fuck us up the ass pretty quick off a couple bad dodges.
The gameplay is barebones as fuck, but it's pretty fun because the combat holds up with enemies one-shotting you outside of bad hitbox scenarios (which as of BB/DS3 are decent).
Compare this to Skyrim for example. This isn't to pick on Skyrim either, but the game would completely break down if enemies could 2-shot consistently end game. When cranking the difficulty (in my experience) the game basically turned into a kiting simulator due to how pisspoor your tools were, and you had to relearn how to play the game.
In FRC BB chalices are much harder than all the content in all the games easily, but you just felt like you were doing the same thing as you were in Central Yarnham but a bit better.
The difficulty makes sense in the context of the game world. It's an immersion thing.
>>336389279
>you get overleveled and the game isn't even hard
>>336389170
Dark Souls as a series is incredibly fair in its difficulty. Dark Souls 2 has a lot of hard for the sake of being hard moments. But everything else is just challenging.
Nioh by comparison is hard for the sake of being hard and is chock full of artificial difficulty.
>>336389170
Dark Souls is hard in order to be satisfying. When you beat a boss it feels like a genuine accomplishment because it actually put up a fight. When you find a bonfire you feel real relief because you struggled to get there.
This is opposed to most modern video games where your character does something badass, but only during a quicktime event. Or you die to some obstacle, only to respawn two meters away to try again. Beating these games does not feel satisfying because you're not really doing anything that genuinely challenges you, the player.
It sucks when people think they're hardcore gamers for playing the game. Its not harder than most games on the hardest difficulty, unless you are a dumbass and rush.
>>336389170
>Dark Souls hard for the sake of being hard?
No, it's challenging, dark souls 2 is hard for the sake of being hard,''hey lets just make you fight a lot of enemies at the same time hurr'' but dark souls 1, demon's souls, bloodborne and ds3 aren't, i'm playing dark souls 3 and the vast majority of the bosses until now were very very easy, on the same tier with the tutorial boss, only the 3 bosses were hard until now
HOW THE FUCK DOES FROMSOFT CREATE A LIVING, BREATHING WORLD IN EACH GAME????
>>336390773
Dark Souls 2 is frustrating, its exactly what DeS and DaS were going against.
>>336390094
I beat the first boss first try with a soldier because I pick up games quickly. It seemed to me like the only reason DS is hard, is because it had to live up to Demon's Soul difficulty and it was always meant to "bring the good old hard games back". I played for 2 hours before giving up on it (dying 2-3 times) because I felt the controls were bad (I'm very picky when it comes to controlling a character, not a RPG fan anyway, I realize I have an unpopular opinion, lets leave that there.)
I did state that the game is fair within it's own rule, and I agree with that.
>>336390614
That's fine, but denying that it was made hard for the sake of being hard ("Hard to be satisfying"). Any game that's hard will be satisfying when you finally get past a hard bit. How many times have you played a game where you went "Finally... Thank god!" when you beat a hard bit? (SMG2 last stage with only 1 life comes to mind.)
>>336390025
It felt to me like it hard to be hard because it came from Demon's Soul, which it had to live up to. At which point they had to make it difficult to keep the reputation.
>>336391058
>That's fine, but denying that it was made hard for the sake of being hard
Its not artificial hardness though, which is probably what you think of when you hear "Hard"
The main reason I'm posting is because I know I may be wrong, but discussion was basically.
>me: "It's hard for being hard, it had to live up to DeS's difficulty and it's there to 'make games hard again'"
>friend: "No, it's hard to be fulfilling once you beat it"
Which to me, my friend had no real argument.
>>336390426
Sounds like you never got good.
>>336391058
>and it was always meant to "bring the good old hard games back"
That's a stupid way of looking at it. Fromsoft has just been doing their own thing and making the same exact kind of game for over 20 years. It's like they live in a vacuum.
>>336391417
Your wrong, you friends right.
Its hard to be fulfilling when you beat it, it isn't hard just to be hard and bring the old games back. Thats the way the marketing may have you believe, but that isn't the point.
>>336389170
The difficulty in it is for the people that go in without analyzing shit. You think it's all about hitting stuff with your sword, but then an enemy tanks your hits and two or even one-shots you.
The real difficulty is learning attack patterns while staying alive long enough to try and beat whatever it is you're trying to beat. Once you got those down, the game becomes extremely easy.
In fact, Nioh is the same way, except they crank up the damage on regular enemies for the sake of it being a "hard" game. I beat the two bosses very easily due to how the normal enemies train you.
The Souls games are, intentionally or not, games that punish you for not:
a) reading
b) paying attention to your surroundings
c) playing like you'd play a hack n slash
I assure you, you'll never fall for a trap once you've fallen for ONE of them in ANY previous Souls game. Has a Mimic ever truly killed anyone else here after we discovered the very first one ever? I'd like to think not. It's all patterns, man. That's why I believe poise was turned off for DaS3. There's only so much challenge they can provide without it becoming unfair, so your character not having poise but enemies having it is just another way to add to the challenge. And it's often still easy to get used to, so yeah.
Demon's Souls and Dark Souls
>Challenging but well designed enemies and environments, nothing ever feels cheap our out of place and you can succeed by simply paying attention
Dark Souls II and Dark Souls IIII
>Gank squads everywhere in PvE, one-time death traps that catch players, enemies that never stop attacking the player and have infinite stamina with little recovery time and huge poise, games are made difficulty solely for the purpose of being difficult, some bosses have cheap gimmicks added into the fight simply to artificially inflate the difficulty.
DaSII and DaSIII is what happens when devs listen to memers
I'm really tired of people asking this question.
It's like it'shardfor them to grasp varying levels in consumed media or experience.
Is every book just as easy to read as another? Does every movie require as much attention and thought as another? Is every skill or trade as easy to learn as the rest? Can people challenge their usual palette and acquire new tastes?
These games are built around essential concepts of trial and tribulation, THEN skill and ability come afterwards.
>Is Dark Souls hard for the sake of being hard? Or is the difficulty not there for the sake of being difficult?
It's just inherent to the GAME and ART aspects. Usually people can argue one side or the other, but its a rare case where the nature of the design, philosophy, input/ouput, setting, etc etc. all reflect a pure vision.
>>336391417
You are wrong. From's only intention in making DaS and DeS is to make good games that have aspects they find enjoyable. Offering at least a moderate challenge is absolutely necessary for any game to be considered well designed, so of course they tried their best to make it both challenging and fun.
>>336389170
it's hard as a consequence of its design, but it's not designed to be hard (except DaS2, which was a mistake)
>>336389170
The gameplay is just tight and each encounter requires you to have experience with how your weapons work and what the enemy is going to do.
It's why the first playthroughs for the games might take around 40 hours but subsequent playthroughs might take 10.
I'm not sure what the appeal of Dark Souls is but I wouldn't say its bad. It just isn't the game for me. Too slow and the controls are awkward, kind of a bare-bones story so I don't feel inclined to keep playing. I just don't find it fun.
>>336391728
DaS 2, ya, but 3 is devoid of 90% of the bullshit from 2. I don't think 3 is as good as DaS 1, but its nowhere near as shitty as 2
>>336389170
It's not that difficult, but it does have some straight up bullshit in it, mostly relating to bottomless pits being everywhere including a gimmick boss fight specifically related to that, and maybe capra demon where you win or lose the fight in the first 2 seconds depending on how the dogs behave.
I think a lot of the difficulty for a new player would come from them having to learn how all the game systems work since they never tell you and you kind of have to figure it out or check a wiki. In that since it's different from most games, but I wouldn't call it difficult for the sake of being difficult.
>>336391728
What one time death traps are there in DaS3?
I legitimately can't think of any so I'm curious.
>>336389170
Demon's and Dark1 felt challenging, but fair. The difficulty was used as a means to immerse the player. Dark2 felt like it was just made "unfair" hard due to le ebin "prepair2dye" marketing meme. Dark3 feels similar to, but better than Dark2 in that regard. I can't speak for Bloodborne.
>>336391975
>straight up bullshit
I don't know any bullshit in 1 except for the first mimic
>>336391480
That's why I'm trying to have a civil debate (on /v/ out of all places).
Read >>336391417
You'll see my friend had no real argument. He was repeating the exact same thing. I haven't played Single player games since Mass Effect, mostly playing competitive game and MMOs.
>>336391598
That's like saying "Swimming is dangerous to be fulfilling when you can finally swim". Almost anything that's hard and requires you to improve will make you feel fulfilled. As a kid, playing Ghouls and Ghosts, that shit was hard, very trial and error. It was hard for the sake of being hard, since you had to throw in more coins to play once you died. Still felt fulfilled once I beat it. That's not a valid argument.
>>336390426
>finished ng+7 fairly easily with single digit deaths
overleveled ain't got nothing to do with that
>>336389170
>Is Dark Souls hard for the sake of being hard?
As opposed to being hard for the sake of some other bullshit...?
It's hard because if the game was easy, it'd be boring, and nobody would be compelled or motivated to take advantage of anything in the game. You'd never get good at certain skills, you'd never articulate any meaningful solutions through the games resources, all because there'd be a lack of meaningful, exclusive problems. If a game is hard, it's just demanding a certain kind of player out of you.
And the Souls Games aren't hard, they reward literally the smallest little slivers of strategy or recollection. If you pay attention to what thrusting/slashing/magic/etc is good against, you can just upgrade a collection of different weapons in a way that "covers all bases" and demolish most of the enemies, for example.
>>336392164
I know your problemYou don't wanna be wrong even though you are
It isn't hard ot be hard. They didn't say "Lets make a hard game" the difficulty was to bring you into the world and for it to be satisfying. Its really isn't hard to understandGet over it
>>336392215
Zelda is an easy game and people love that game. Same type of game (Adventure/RPG), two opposite directions. A game can be hard as part of its design/controls. A game can also be hard because the devs said "You only have 1 hit point to make it through the entire game".
It's as hard as Rayman.
Once you know where everything is and how everything moves its a cakewalk. But if you don't want to learn shit and just hop around like a retard you'll obviously fall on your mouth.
>>336392164
Learning how to accept that you're wrong is an important life skill, anon. Don't slack off and try to convince yourself that you're right when you would be better off just being honest with yourself.
Beating a Souls game does not prove your "skill as a gamer" but rather it proves your competency. Anyone can beat a souls game as long as they put even forth a small amount of effort to learn how the game plays. Its your own fault if you die more then 3-4 times to any specific area, enemy or boss.
Most enemies attacks are extremely well telegraphed, you have a dodge roll that gives you ample invincibility frames, most attacks can be parried, enemies are all weak to a certain play style or element.
They aren't hard for the sake of being hard, they never even come close to that threshold. They are challenging because they ask you to actually think, its more puzzle solving then anything else.
>>336391417
It's fulfilling as you play it. If a game is hard, it demands active, energetic interpretation (something a lot of gamers definitely can't muster). When a game threatens to revoke your progress over little mistakes, you enter into a more energetic state..
You pin it all down to one stupid banal reason, "they had to make it hard," which is just your lack of imagination showing. Your friend is no better by saying fulfillment comes after the journey, which means he's been a bad witness of journeys in general.
It's easy to see how easy games are just meaningless. If you played tennis against a pro, the pro would be bored to death from instantly winning over and over, but if two equal players went at it, you'd actually have an interesting exchange that'd be fun enough.
>>336392379
If I wanted to be proven right, I wouldn't be posting this on a forum full of DS fans. I'm looking for arguments to back up my friend. I varied my argument and he kept spouting the same BS.
Put it "difficulty to bring you into the game and make you care about the environment/world" is a different point of view I hadn't thought of. Could that have been done in a different matter? I'm sure it could have; but I don't know how.
I'm not saying I dislike the difficulty, FFS I played Starcraft at high level (B on iCCup in 2008) FWIW. Hard mechanical skills is something I enjoy grinding and something I pick up on quickly; it doesn't scare me.
>>336392795
My RL friend (guy I had the argument with) didn't even consider my point of view and kept his point as "It's hard so you feel accomplished" which from my POV, it's like that for anything. Other arguments in this thread has changed my perspective. Ironically, he also removed me from Steam. That's also a guy who played 200+ hours of Rocket League with me and hasn't gotten good. I struggle to accept the POV on difficulty coming from someone who refuses to improve his own skill in general. (Let alone being arrogant).
>>336392921
I played 2 hours, died 2-3 times. I felt bored because I disliked the gameplay/controls and didn't get into the world.
The game felt tedious to me, but I can't deny that it was unforgiving. I did believe the game was hard for the sake of it, since I did not know about FromSoftware until then and it felt like they just wanted to bring the difficulty back in video games.
All the Dark Souls games are hard for the sake of hard. Demon's Souls was the only one that had a natural challenge to it.
It isn't really hard in the way it is perceived by games media. Dying in the game is largely inconsequential, it is a lot of trial and error, but once you get into the game and get the hang of things, it becomes far more enjoyable. Dark Souls 2 has the roughest start of any of the games, but even I got more into it once I got past the first few bosses.
>>336393165
As someone who beat and didn't actually like the game all that much, I wouldn't say the difficulty pulled me in, it was more like "thank fuck that bullshit's over with".
Then again, I played it after completing and loving every second of Bloodborne, so the game's age really showed and that probably affected my enjoyment.
>>336392446
Yet Zelda is boring as fuck. Who cares if all of our nostalgia junkies with no reality outside of their childhood still love it? They all probably love Assassin's Creed too, another that game is mechanically flimsy and weightless and full of fluff.
Games should be artistically hard, which you probably agree with. Dying in one hit isn't out of the question, but obviously it's a better part of one game than another. The obstacles Zelda games put in front of you are barely artistic, almost never exciting, and are often just incredibly tedious. Plus, you are given so many hearts, so much padding, that the game never demands a sacrifice or that you put anything on the line. This is why the game leaves me feeling not just bored, but like a dead body.
>>336389170
if a game isn't hard for the sake of being hard then what the hell would it be hard for?
just to annoy you?
>Dark Souls
no
>Dark Souls 2, Bloodborne and Dark Souls 3
yes
>>336389170
What's hard about it? The fact that you die a lot?
It's just a lot of trial and error. It's not like it's inherently difficult. Oh, that guy ambushed you when you entered a room? Welp, better respawn and swing violently as I enter that room next time.
Also, DS3 is by far the easiest of the entire series. I found many "casual" games to be significantly more difficult.
>>336389170
The truth?
No, its not that hard. the problem is that some enemies do not conduct themselves to certain play styles, and thus it gives the illusion of difficulty. This combined with stat building to improve a character means that the game becomes easier as you progress.
The same mobs that kicked your ass at the start are nothing but a fart at the end.
The general skill of "hold up shield, and circle right" overcomes most every enemy in the game. Enemies range from "Whats turning around" to "I spin like a fucking top and have a heat seeking hammer for a weapon" But generally even this is overcome by "roll towards the enemy and backstab them"
The bosses again, do not always lend themselves to certain builds or playstyles.
Not at all, that would be 2 you are thinking of
>>336394175
I felt this way a bit, but there's no denying your history with the series affected it feeling that way.
Does this mean it could've been even more steeply challenging? Maybe, it's a hard thing to balance considering there are inevitably new players, and not everyone carries their past experiences the same.
>>336389170
2 is hard to be hard its one of the biggest problems with the level design.
They just throw enemies at you and say "deal with it"
I still don't know why people find this gameplay fun. I only ever played DS and mostly PVE, but the game was all about pulling aggro, not rushing things and backstab everything, don't even bother with parrying since you get some unnecesary risks. The only fight that was really tough beyond learning simple mechanics was O&S, and that's because they are two vs one. I don't even know why this is considered hard, you spend more time fighting the stamina metter and the clunky animations like monster hunter. Fuck, I miss ghost and goblins and castlevania hard.
>>336389170
I'm convinced that anyone who thinks souls games are hard is a fucking retard. The fucking leveling system ensures that you'll have exactly the handicap you need to beat any given area.
>>336394380
DS2 isn't difficult full stop. One of the few areas I'm willing to admit was bullshit was Iron Keep in SotFS, there are far too many enemies before Smelter Demon.
Shrine of Amana was only challenging if you tried to run through from the second bonfire.
>>336389170
The """"""""""""difficulty"""""""""""' is there only to add to the bleak and oppressive atmosphere. The game is about atmosphere first and foremost. It's not even that difficult for anyone familiar with good RPGs and action games.
>>336389170
Darksouls being hard is a meme
most bosses have weaknesses and can be trivialized if you know what your doing
>>336389170
Life is hard. Dark Souls isfun.
>>336394175
>DS3 is by far the easiest of the entire series
Nope. You just got gud.
>>336394730
The dragon boss is the very definition of why 2 is the worst in the series
>>336389745
>the sense of satisfaction when you first beat O&S
hnnnnng
dat 4 hours of constant trying, with my 5 Estus, because I didn't know I can raise that number
the feel of the magnificent victory after that 4 hours
hnnnnnnggg
>>336395027
Ah yeah, I'd forgotten about him, I literally never fight him. Much rather fight double health Vendrick than kill Ancient Dragon.
Small mercy is that he's optional and doesn't drop anything particularly important.
It's not so much hard as it is unforgiving. The game doesn't hold your hand and punishes you for your failures. People like this design because it forces them to git gud at the game if they want to progress on their own and it feels like a great challenge to overcome.
Also people love to act like because of this unforgiving nature that it is some kind of amazing feat or reward for beating one of these games. This drives the try-hards to this game that feel like they have something to prove. These try-hards show up in most games though so it's nothing truly unique about souls other than maybe the dense concentration of them here due to the general consensus of the games.
>>336395356
>literally never fight him
This, why bother. Same with the bridge dragon in DS1, fuck that noise.
>>336395508
>The game doesn't hold your hand and punishes you for your failures
I never got this. Why people say this? It desn't punish you for shit, if you die you lose your humanity and that's it, you can even recover your souls and unused humanity in the puddle. That's not punishing at all.
>>336389170
The game isn't difficult as long as you never let your guard down. The whole point is that it's designed so that you're always tense since everything can kill you easily if you get careless. It adds to the feeling of dread that is built up throughout the game. Sort of like survival horror, but obviously much less intense.
>>336395265
>4 hours
Jesus, I didn't even spend that long on Gargoyles, probably just as long on Oreos and Smores as on Gargoyles.
>>336395884
I know that I spent a whole day in flamelurker and I only won because he got stuck once and I just rolled with it. I still believe that he's unbeatable in melee.
>>336395781
It punishes you for failure because in a lot of situations you have to redo a lot, and if you let frustrations get the better of you you simply do worse. The failures teach you not only the enemies better but the layout of the map as well.
>le souls is hard
My 16 y/o (as of yesterday) have platnium every Souls, including both versions of 2and he hated every second from that pile of shit because he has taste unlike most of /v/.
>>336396181
Sorry to tell you, maybe you already know, but your cousin has autism.
>>336396239
I forgot to mention, it was my brother. And no, he's more alpha than any of you here, same goes for me, hell my sister is more alpha than any of you.
>>336396018
Nigger, I beat Flamelurker in my second attempt, purple flame shield is in the game for a reason
I finally got around to playing Dark Souls. The first time I tried a few years ago, I started off by trying to go through the skeletons to the catacombs. I got my shit kicked in and assumed that the game was unfairly hard and quit.
Played this time following the more correct route and man, it is not that bad at all. It takes a bit of getting used to but if you use a shield things become ridiculously easy. I just happened to stumble across the Grey Wolf and I killed him in my first try.
There are some bosses that will take a bunch of tries but overall the game is pretty chill.
'Dark Souls is hard' is a meme made by casuals to try to feel important.
>>336396565
>And no, he's more alpha than any of you here, same goes for me, hell my sister is more alpha than any of you.
This is pathetic. I'd call you anon but I'd wager you're some autistic newfag who thinks he's hot shit. Kill yourself, your post is embarrassing.
>>336396603
>purple flame shield
Never even heard of this before, looks completely fucking broken.
>>336395527
I kill Ancient Dragon everytime I play the game. Only because of the Big Toe trick that was never patched.
>>336396732
I was like that until I reched quelaag. I fucking hate her, the game suddenly takes a big fucking jump in difficulty there for no good reason. It keeps being hard as fuck for a while until you defeat biggie smalls, after that it's easy as shit and theg ameplay goes to "defeat the gimmick of this place"
>>336390484
Play ninja gaiden and experience hard
>>336397715
We can experience hard together if you'd like, Anon._____:3
>>336391728
>>Gank squads everywhere in PvE, one-time death traps that catch players, enemies that never stop attacking the player and have infinite stamina with little recovery time and huge poise, games are made difficulty solely for the purpose of being difficult, some bosses have cheap gimmicks added into the fight simply to artificially inflate the difficulty.
none of those things are in DS3, you're just shitposting. Maybe one boss has infinite stamina, but that's about it.
DS3 has some of the best level design in the entire Souls series.
>>336397162
I know, I had trouble with her too.
After you beat her it goes back to being easy until Bert and Ernie
>>336397715
I did play one. It was bullshit. I hated it. I'd spent years playing DMC games, so I tried one out. It was like DMC, only that every mob had rocket launcher guys in multiple spots that respawned whilst you were trying to deal with the regular enemies.
Koei Tecmo/Team Ninja don't know how to make balanced games. Every game they make it's bullshit artificial difficulty. Even Fatal Frame can't escape it with it's instant death mechanics during bossfights.
>>336389170
dark souls isn't hard, its just not easy
dark souls 2 is hard, its just a bad game
dark souls 3 is challenging
