What went wrong?
>>336356510
Warner Jews got the rights the franchise
>>336356665
Hey, movies were good
>>336356510
D&D faggots
Modern liberal and relativist cuck culture can't accept or comprehend the themes this man whole-heartedly believed in and infused his magnum opus with. There's a reason /v/ much prefers Game of Thrones to Tolkien.
>>336359842
Game of Thrones is hack writing at its worst.
Please tell me /v/ actually reads anything but meme lit.
>>336359842
If you think Tolkein was some kind of redpiller you're a fucking retard. Why does /pol/ always try to claim things as theirs?
>There will be never post apocalyptic fantasy game with only few pockets of civilization surrounded by very dangerous wildness and ruins of old kingdoms
Damn, I think only Dragon's Dogma tried to do something like that
>>336360279
Let's be fair here, almost everyone tried to see something that wasn't in this books
>>336360279
no it's the SJWs that actually scour his work and claim it's racist, misogynist, etc
But it does praise themes that are simply out of date now, like honor, compassion, duty, love of country, sacrifice, etc
George Ziets hates him, Josh Sawyer praises him. I think we all know who's in the right here. Only one of these men wrote Mask of the Betrayer.
>>336356510
Tolkien died, and was no longer available to put a stop to butchering his work for adaptation into incompatible media, nor to personally reply to idiots trying to turn it into political fodder.
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/03/i-have-no-ancestors-of-that-gifted.html
>>336361857
Many writers praise him
And motb was garbage story and choices wise
>Lol let's get totally unique and alien setting
>Lol let's do nothing with it
At least Sawyer wasn't main writer of this garbage
>/v/ arguing about Tolkien or GRRM
I know this thread will be a shitshow but I can't help but stick around even if I'm fully aware of how much it will hurt
>>336359842
Tolkien was pretty liberal
that whole Ents vs Isengard thing and his general anti-industrialisation stance makes him come off as a bit of a treehugger sometimes
>>336363006
/v/ is the epitome of the GoT generation who are basically brainwashed into hating Tolkien and eat up whatever the fat fuck squeezes out of his ass.
>>336359036
D&D was mostly about Leibner and Howard, and then mostly about fucking its own grandfather in order to preserve the purity of the bloodline. Tolkien wasn't much of an influence beyond halflings being called hobbits very early on.
>>336363006
>>336363070
Come on, there has been several excellent Lotr threads here. This one just started the wrong way and wont become great ever.
>>336360436
I kinda like just how many people are desperate to see some kind of WWII analogy in his books despite Tolkien having clearly stated several times he did not base his works on that war.
You can try to see what you want in a book but when the author comes out and specifically tells you you're wrong it gets silly.
>>336363070
There's literally nothing wrong with liking Asoiaf or disliking Tolkien or the other way around.
http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/george-r-r-martin-the-rolling-stone-interview-20140423?page=4
>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
>The war that Tolkien wrote about was a war for the fate of civilization and the future of humanity, and that’s become the template. I’m not sure that it’s a good template, though. The Tolkien model led generations of fantasy writers to produce these endless series of dark lords and their evil minions who are all very ugly and wear black clothes. But the vast majority of wars throughout history are not like that.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3110466/Game-Thrones-creator-defends-rape-scenes-Author-says-dishonest-boring-leave-sexual-violence.html
>'But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.
How could one man be so based?
>>336362690
At least Christopher takes a conservative approach to his father's works, it could have been a whole lot worse, see Dune.
>>336363190
>Sellout
>Based
>>336363190
He is kind of right, but thats not what Lord of the Rings tried to be.
I enjoy GRRM, but he should have just thrown away all fantasy aspects and made a pure medieval politcal drama thing.
>>336363190
Guess which one of the two writers actually fought in a war and which one sat on his arse most of his life?
>>336363190
That's what I like about asoiaf. The prince slays the unjust king and the dragons. What now? Well the Prince turns out to be fairly incompetent as far as ruling goes and the whole kingdom goes to shit.
>>336363343
it started out that way, but he quickly realized he doesn't have the writing talent or intelligence to actually do historical conflicts justice so he added fantasy elements to sell his works
>>336363190
From the genius that brought you:
>Sunset found her squatting...
>Her cunt became the world
>>336363190
D&D make GRRM look like JRR
>>336363190
>baby orc
Weren't they, like, produced?
>>336363454
He is a gross old lazy fuck, doesnt mean he doesnt write interesting stories.
>>336363190
Nice hypocrisy there GRMM, he also said this:
“The best fantasy is written in the language of dreams. It is alive as dreams are alive, more real than real ... for a moment at least ... that long magic moment before we wake.
Fantasy is silver and scarlet, indigo and azure, obsidian veined with gold and lapis lazuli. Reality is plywood and plastic, done up in mud brown and olive drab. Fantasy tastes of habaneros and honey, cinnamon and cloves, rare red meat and wines as sweet as summer. Reality is beans and tofu, and ashes at the end. Reality is the strip malls of Burbank, the smokestacks of Cleveland, a parking garage in Newark. Fantasy is the towers of Minas Tirith, the ancient stones of Gormenghast, the halls of Camelot. Fantasy flies on the wings of Icarus, reality on Southwest Airlines. Why do our dreams become so much smaller when they finally come true?
We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think. To taste strong spices and hear the songs the sirens sang. There is something old and true in fantasy that speaks to something deep within us, to the child who dreamt that one day he would hunt the forests of the night, and feast beneath the hollow hills, and find a love to last forever somewhere south of Oz and north of Shangri-La.
They can keep their heaven. When I die, I'd sooner go to middle Earth"
>>336363190
>muhhhhhhhh realism in fantasy
fucking hell.
>>336356510
Wish they'd stop milking lotr and go so silmarillion. I want to destroy elves foundations, kill dragons, and procreate with my sister as turin.
GRRRRRRR happend
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAp_luluo0
>>336363483
No, just the uruk-hai were, or maybe not, Lotr lore is pretty subtle when it comes to how the evil shit actually worked.
Orcs likely reproduced normally, and may or may not have been elves. Tolkien never really came to a final conclusion regarding that, in any case he wasnt happy with that as a final explanation.
>>336363427
thing is Aragorn, in the LOTR books is established having prior experience with ruling as well as being intelligent and having extensive knowledge of the world and its inhabitants, the movies don't properly portrait it and its interesting how many movie-only folks are still surprised to learn how old Aragorn actually is when he meets the hobbits for the first time.
>you will never fuck a qt balrog
what went wrong?
Why would you even make this thread OP? /v/ treats authors like people treat football teams so I expect flocks of retards to come to bash grrm because they like tolkiens and tell anyone who likes asoiaf that they're retards.
>>336363632
I don't think I ever saw a female orc in the books.
>>336363594
Christopher refuses to sell the rights to anyone.
And after the hobbit movies who can really blame him?
>>336363736
It's OK with GoT plebs do it though right? Go crawl back into GRRRRRM's fat rolls you Reddit trash.
>>336363632
I've read Silmarillion and in the First Era, while elves were traveling through the whole Middle Earth, some of them were left behind and they were "taken by evil spirits". I assumed that Morgoth took em, made them some kind of "orc gods" and then they started producing offspring, either through evil magicks or technology. At least i thought it was this way.
>>336363651
Yeah he is old and wise before he even starts ruling Gondor so makes sense he would rule well, especially considering all allies made during their common conflict against the darkness. Excempting The Shire from taxes was being too nice though.
>>336363190
>realism
>makes a map that looks like this
>>336363632
>>336363483
First generation of orcs were made from elves, after that they were born naturally
To make uruk-hai Saruman kidnapped human women, so they were born more or less naturally too
>>336356510
Why is Middle-Earth the same as the coast of western Africa?
>>336363828
Literally nobody bashes tolkien because they like grrm.
>>336363869
Why not, that makes sense.
>>336363917
Does the northernmost continent wrap around and joins the easternmost area
>>336363943
Because it probably is
>>336359842
Tolkien was pretty liberal, even if he hated the working class.
>>336360279
every laughingstock group/movement tries to appropriate some prominent figure's works in search of legitimacy
>>336363879
Appendixes even flat out state he's a gifted diplomat and the increased cooperation between the various nations and races of the world significantly speeds up the reparations after the war.
And given he was both old and wise when he started to rule and still ruled for a very long period afterwards (he became 150 iirc) its not all that strange his rule was peaceful and prosperous
>>336363917
Pretty good map
What's wrong with it?
>>336364114
>>336363879
BUT WHAT'S HIS TAX POLICY
>>336363190
>'But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that.
Aside from the fact that Tolkien fought in WW1, lost all of his friends, and the entire ending of the Lord of the Rings is about shellshock.
>>336360279
I think he's implying that SJWs dislike his work because it's racist or not "diverse" enough, not that he was a right-wing writer.
To help you understand what I mean, I was going to show you the tumblr redesign of the entire LOTR cast where she complains it's not diverse enough and makes all of the hobbits black, Gandalf into a woman and Aragorn asian or something along those lines, but I'm having trouble finding the image
>>336364174
Feudal
>>336363668
why live?
>>336364220
People die to corruption more than they do to war in LoTR, at least people who actually matter, not nameless grunts.
>>336363057
It's more like traditional aristocratic conservatism. He idealized the position of someone like Frodo, a benevolent rural notable, friendly to his rough, submissive inferiors like Sam.
>>336364451
Not to mention the way the orcs speak is pure working class English.
>>336363190
>Ruling is hard. This was maybe my answer to Tolkien, whom, as much as I admire him, I do quibble with. Lord of the Rings had a very medieval philosophy: that if the king was a good man, the land would prosper. We look at real history and it’s not that simple. Tolkien can say that Aragorn became king and reigned for a hundred years, and he was wise and good. But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy? Did he maintain a standing army? What did he do in times of flood and famine? And what about all these orcs? By the end of the war, Sauron is gone but all of the orcs aren’t gone – they’re in the mountains. Did Aragorn pursue a policy of systematic genocide and kill them? Even the little baby orcs, in their little orc cradles?
Lord of the Rings isn't meant to be taken literally, you fat piece of shit. It's meant to be fantastic - legitimately epic. Nobody asks what Aragorn's tax policy was for the same reason why nobody asks what Agamemnon's favorite fruit was. It's irrelevant to what the story is attempting to accomplish.
>>336363190
Rolling stone is a shit, but while I like George R R Martin he is writing from a different perspective and a different facet of the genre. His stuff is more in the spirit and setting of Robert E Howard's grim take on historicity than the intentional mythological element of Tolkien.
It's a mistake when people assume that their sub-genre or their preference or ideas must be essentialized across the board. There is room for 40k and there is room for Dune and there is room for Star Trek or Star wars. They do not need to all become this muddled muddy beige.
>>336364283
By the standards of his time he was probably quite liberal but the greek-tragedy of liberal-progressivism is that it ultimately turns upon and cannibalizes itself. What was once avant-garde and progressive becomes liberal, and gradually then conservative and ultimately downright reactionary.
>>336363057
Tolkien was conservative to a fault and was a borderline Luddite who hated even machines that were labor-saving, like fucking trains and generally anything with the internal combustion engine. He considered the 'man made' the ultimate evil because it represented coercion. The Ring to him was 'the machine'.
LoTR makes me really sad because I realize I'll probably die before I get a friendship as strong and meaningful as Frodo and Sam have.
>>336364446
and the grunts don't matter why?
Without the various soldiers all fighting for their people and homeland everything would have been lost, heck one of Gandalf's greatest powers is to inspire others, not to throw fireballs around or shit like that.
>>336364639
Try visiting gay bars, faggot
>>336364639
Yeah you'd probably need to go to war or something to get a friendship like that. Not worth it desu.
>>336364283
This is the sort of shit I'm talking about. Can't find the original post, though.
http://emmaehrling.tumblr.com/tagged/lotr-redesigns
>>336364601
well, his views were shared by quite a few people who'd actually been in the Great War
once you see the sheer devastation an industrialized war can inflict, that sort of marks you for life.
WHAT WENT RIGHT, ANONYMOUS?
>>336363190
This is a man who failed in his worldbuilding so hilariously that I've heard him used as an example of what not to do when writing material for RPG session. He has absolutely no sense of scale and pays no heed to effects of time or distance, portrays a civil war in a very feudal society as some sort of Mongolian Vietnam where soldiers are wasted on a whim, the food-growing and tax-paying peasants have no legal protection and are genocided whenever someone farts in their general direction, and the ruling dynasties seem to consist mainly of incompetent warmongering psychopaths that none of their subjects bother to depose in favor of someone more fit to rule. There's also the curious lack of religion and spirituality, and his aping of ideas from history without bothering to actually check any numbers or understand the context in which things happened. He might have some sound ideas but his realization is sloppy as fuck. And he can't keep his magical realm out of his writing.
Talking about how Tolkien's attempts at recreating an old-timey epic saga lack grit and other traits expected of modern realist prose doesn't help his case.
>>336364782
Pretty much everything I guess. Except him getting the most JUST disease there is at the end of his life.
>>336364661
That was my point. Boromir dies because he betrayed Frodo (in Tolkien's medievalist vision), those who remain loyal and pure do not die. Grunts die by the hundreds but they barely matter anyway (in the books).
>>336364768
No I understand his reasoning, not to mention his childhood home was ravaged by the growth of industry (which is why Moorcock apparently hated him since he claimed when HE looked at England everything looked fine)
>>336364826
The only scale mistake was probably the height of the Wall (which GRRM admitted was too tall). Everything else is legit and unless you can actually point out proper examples, I don't think you gave a point at all.
>>336363190
>>336364826
>Have a family with barely any alliance, all of which are ephemeral at best, whose banner is a flayed man, who flays people, and who everyone openly hates
>They haven't been wiped out yet because.. uh.. gotta have an even worse guy to make our antagonists look grey area?
At least you guys get books, movies and games.
No one cares about Feist and Krondorfags anymore.
>>336363943
It isn't, but the entire third of the continent to the west was fucked and blasted and sank into the sea when the Vala came for Melkor's ass, so the middle is now a new coastline.
>>336356510
Stayed too close to the middle.
>>336364709
The level of fraternity, brotherhood and love* between comrades in arms is really remarkable and admirable, especially from my lonely and solitary position.
*As an aside, it's disappointing that people will try and force a sexual connection or chemistry between such people as if it is impossible to feel the bond of love and camaraderie without wanting to fuck one another. It cheapens that selflessness of love and takes a poor view on the kinds of bonds men can share. I suppose ultimately the fujoshits and shippers are simply the female side of those of us who happily consume doujins and smutty art and so on, but I'd hide behind the point of not arguing for a canonicalness or legitimacy to it.
>>336364826
>There's also the curious lack of religion and spirituality
You're right on other parts but there's plenty of religion and spirituality, even if he handles religion in the standard 'church is evil and populist demagoguery' cudgel.
And then again while I was going to say the idea of feudal society having WW1 style devastation is off, the devastation wrought by the free-companies and pseudo-mercenaries during lulls in the 100 year's war were pretty nasty. Not so much that France became a desert, but enough that life was horribly miserable.
>>336363190
>But Tolkien doesn’t ask the question: What was Aragorn’s tax policy?
does he do this in his books? havent read/seen any of them
>>336365147
I'm a Riftwar fan bro.
>>336365110
There's a power vacuum in the north. Boltons have allies, they've been Stark retainers for ages. They're endorsed by the Iron Throne as Warden of the North and probably are getting what they deserve from Wyman Manderly & Friends.
>showfags
You betray yourself.
>>336365242
i meant does George talk about tax plans in GOT
Funny thing is, there is no tax policies mentioned anywhere in the Song of Ice and Fire books. Go ahead and look.
>>336365242
Not quite but we get to see why a successful conqueror turns out to be a mediocre/bad ruler and how it horribly backfires when other ambitions rise against him. Solid book series but memers on /v/ hate it because it's cool to hate anything that's remotely popular and modern.
>>336363057
Learn about romanticism and conservatism, fucker.
>>336365238Women ship men together who have a strong emotional bond because women are aroused more by emotion than by physical contact. To them the physical contact is the icing on the cake, so when they see two men with a strong emotional bond they will often fantasize about the two men embracing their emotional bond with a physical contact as well.
>>336365280
You're right, I haven't read much of the books, because Martin's style of writing, vocabulary, and general pacing is fucking insufferable to me. Hell, the only reason I can tolerate the show is because I can take the piss with a few friends every week over it.
>Boltons have allies
That is my fucking point. In a real setting, no one at all would want to be friends with the family who is famous for their ability to fucking flay people, they'd stomp it out the moment they had even half of an excuse, because no peasant is going to fucking be like "Oh, them Boltons, them'll keep us safe long as we don't go lookin' fer a good flayin', says wot", and scared peasants either flee or revolt en masse and oust your retarded evil mc edgemens anyway.
>>336365825
I'm pretty sure they're not known for flaying random people
>>336365439
>Solid book series but memers on /v/ hate it because it's cool to hate anything that's remotely popular and modern.
maybe, but it's also good to remember that any writer is just human and their work is never perfect. lots of people just accept a fantasy universe as perfectly fleshed out and logical just because they like it.but not having a perfectly believable fantasy universe is okay because it's fucking fantasy
>>336365825
>You're right, I haven't read much of the books, because Martin's style of writing, vocabulary, and general pacing is fucking insufferable to me.
>I don't like the books because I don't like the style but I didn't read them
Not surprising coming from /v/ but eh.
>That is my fucking point. In a real setting, no one at all would want to be friends with the family who is famous for their ability to fucking flay people, they'd stomp it out the moment they had even half of an excuse,
It's a sigil. A rumor. Do you think people were afraid of the english royal families because of their lions?
> because no peasant is going to fucking be like "Oh, them Boltons, them'll keep us safe long as we don't go lookin' fer a good flayin', says wot"
Peasants don't get to say anything. When I say "allies", I mean local lords, the goddamn boltons won't ask peasants for their individual supports.
>>336365034
No, he shits mistakes of scale by the truckload. His distances are travel times are all over the place, random kingdoms field armies that would rival those of the Byzantine Empire at its zenith, millions upon millions of serfs and craftsmen that would form the economic foundations of such might are nowhere to be seen, the list goes on. He tries for realism without doing any research, and this is what you get.
>>336365949
Yeah that's reasonable. But even, fantasy universes need to have internal consistency, not realism.
>>336364117
love this picture
>>336365920
Really? Because that is literally the portrayal they have been given in all the media I've glanced at.
If it is different in the book, and they only torture people in.. self defense? Then I will concede that point, but as I said before, I also haven't read the books in any great amount, but their translation to other media has not been kind.
>>336366012
>Peasants don't get to say anything
Pre-industrial culture is literally built on keeping the peasants farming and not revolting, what the fuck are you talking about? The only exception to this rule is a setting where magic exists and you can ABRA KA FUCKYOU up some food with a mage/witch/druid/wizard/arcanist/Jim's second Cousin who went to Magic College, otherwise what the peasants, as a collective, think is incredibly fucking important, because they're feeding the whole fucking kingdom.
>>336366013
>random kingdoms field armies that would rival those of the Byzantine Empire at its zenith,
I'm sure you have an example then.
>millions upon millions of serfs and craftsmen that would form the economic foundations of such might are nowhere to be seen
The book series largely take place in cities. The Riverlands notoriously got looted and the smallfolk suffered or perhaps you expected most people to live in cities?
>>336366242
>>Pre-industrial culture is literally built on keeping the peasants farming and not revolting, what the fuck are you talking about?
Not sure where you're from but Absolutism was a thing. Peasants did revolt time and again in history and got crushed back in servitude every single time.
>untrained masses with agricultural tools vs actually trained and equipped noblemen and their levies
Never ends well unless they're backed by the bourgeoisie (see French Revolution)
>>336364174
Mostly consists of direct rents from his demesne, commutation fees for vassal services, and any profits from the fines and fees of royal justice. He tries to keep a tight fiscal policy and doesn't need to levy general taxes during peacetime.
>>336366012
Peasants got to say quite a lot IRL. Even the landless serfs fleeing their lands for a better lord was such an issue that most lands had to have actual laws for it. True, being a peasant in medieval France or Sengoku Jidai: Germany was a shit life, but even they had some legal standing. Peasants in England actually had decent literacy rates so they could read the documents they were signing, and inspect the tax books. Westeros treats its working classes as expendable slaves that are kind of just there, occupying space and waiting for their tragic death scenes.
>>336366368
>Hey, uh, guys, our peasants... th-they're revolting, can anyoen help us?
>Aren't you those assholes who fucking drag people out int he woods and skin them alive?
>y-yeah?
>Fuck off.
There is literally no reason for the Boltons to have alliances, to my knowledge. Do they have the iron reserves that keeps the Greyjoy's buddied up with people? Do they have the historical significance that, until the story began, kept the Starks relevant?
I'm not even asking you to make a point, I'm asking because I don't know, because it's never given a moment's thought as it has been presented to me. It just seems like "They're evil, let them be evil over there", which is the sort of weak writing that you can get from fucking Eragon
>>336365147
Riftwar Saga is the worst high fantasy can get and actually made me stop playing Betrayal because I no longer had any investment in the world.
>>336366242
"The peasan'ts war [16th century Germany] blocked any attempts of the peasants to improve their social and political position. The vast majority of the German people were cut off from any active participation i npublic affairs and their own style of life was warped by the will and whim of other classes. The peasant remained a mere beast of burden. Sebastian Franck said in 1534 that the peasant was everybody's "foot-rag". (History of Modern Germany - The Reformation, Hajo Holborn pg. 63).
Book goes on to describe the fact that much like the rest of Eastern Europe the peasant was shifting from the Grundherrschaft (some kind of a tax or financial due owed by the peasants to their superiors) to the more onerous Gutsherrschaft (where corvee or unpaid labor was required. Old school serfdom that the West was growing out of).
That is much later era but the lot of the peasantry varied greatly with territory. Not just the usual anglocentricism of holding it up as a model but Spain and I think northern Italy as well as France depending on the period could have a better situation for the peasants. Likewise if GRRM did a good job it should vary depending on the kingdom and culture - I would think a peasant is better off in the North, Dorne, the Eyrie and the riverlands and worst in Tyrell territory, lannister territory and whatever the kings landing and stannis place is called.
>>336366928
>There is literally no reason for the Boltons to have alliances, to my knowledge.
Lemme check the big ol tome of ice and fire lore my brother got me for xmas.
>>336366873
>Westeros treats its working classes as expendable slaves that are kind of just there
Yeah, it just speaks to how generic that series really is.
>>336366873
>>336366928
Maybe it's because I'm French but our serfdom was really like that. Peasants had no right nor way to stand against local nobility which had the same relationship towards higher ups and themselves to the centralised royalty.
Also the Boltons do have their friendships (Lannisters of Casterly Rock) and political alliances (the wedding with the Frey of the Twins) and a longstanding history of holding lands in the North. But I'll admit they're the least interestingly written family in the books, which is a shame because the show focuses on them instead of genuinely well written arcs (Wyman Manderly, Aegon, Quentyn etc).
>>336359842
>>336363057
>>336364451
>>336364601
“I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence. I much prefer history – true or feigned– with its varied applicability to the thought and experience of readers. I think that many confuse applicability with allegory, but the one resides in the freedom of the reader, and the other in the purposed domination of the author.”
t.JRR Tolkien
>>336367464
>and whatever the kings landing and stannis place is called.
The Crownlands and Stormlands
>>336363514
>the halls of Camelot
Hilarious considering the Knights of the Round Table are more realistically flawed and still likable, human and relatable whereas 90% of everyone in ASOIAF is an murderous psychopath, this is even more ironic in the case of Le Morte D'Arthur since Thomas Malory was a real life rogue and villain. They also both were taking big influence from the War of Roses, but while Malory LIVED through that period and wrote his story heavily criticizing that period of history Martin uses it as a crutch and an excuse for all his shit writing, saying 'well it happened in history!' as a get out of criticism free card.
>>336367464
"Bitterest foes of winterfell were undoubtedly the red kings of the dreadfort, those grim lords of house bolton wose domains of old stretched from last river to white knife, and as far south as sheepshead hills."
(Paraphrasing here, not copying verbatim)
"Enmity between starks and boltons go back to the long night itself it is called. Wars between these two families were legion, not all ended in victory for Starks. Royce Bolton 2nd burnt winterfell once, Royce IV remembered as royce redarm for plunging his arm into the bellies of captive foes to pull their guts with his hands did the same 3 centuries later. Others wore cloaks made from the skins of stark princes.
Dreadfort fell eventually and the last red king bent the knee to the king of winter when the Andals were crossing the narrow sea in their ships (So this is distant distant history, upwards of +6,000 years ago).
>>336367673
this
/thread now faggots
>>336367673
It's weird that a Catholic and a classicist dislikes allegory.
>>336366459
Also he makes the distant province of Shire pay its taxes in nature by maintaining roads and bridges, so he's clearly aware of the practicality of extracting money from rural populations then carting it over a thousand kilometers of monster-infested desolation.
>>336366243
This is from wikipedia, on the period where the Eastern Roman Empire controlled the largest territory with about 19,000,000 people tilling the fields and paying taxes:
>The strength of the Byzantine army and navy in 565 is estimated by Teadgold to have been 379,300 men, with a field army and part of the guards totaling 150,300, and the frontier troops, part of the guards and the oarsmen totaling 229,000. These numbers probably held through the reign of Maurice. However, the largest field army mentioned in the Strategikon is a force of 34,384 (16,384 heavy infantry, 8,000 light-armed troops and 10,000 cavalry) which is given as an example of "the past, when the legions were composed of large numbers of men."
This is from GoT wiki:
>The Martels are believed to be able to raise fifty thousand soldiers... George R. R. Martin has previously stated that Dorne is roughly equal in military strength to the North and Vale
>The Iron Islands can raise approximately twenty thousand men and five hundred longships
>The north can perhaps raise forty-five thousand soldiers... The northmen marched south with an army of thirty thousand during the War of Conquest,
>The Reach can raise an army of between eighty and one hundred thousand soldiers
>The riverlands can raise forty-five thousand soldiers
>The stormlands can raise thirty thousand soldiers
>The Vale of Arryn can raise forty-five thousand soldiers
>The westerlands can raise up to fifty thousand troops
>During the Second Spice War, the Rhoynar are said to have had an army of a quarter million, while the Valyrians had a hundred thousand men, one hundred war elephants, and three hundred dragons.
Etc.
>>336368768
I fail to see the discrepancy. The North isn't as densely populated as Dorne despite its sheer size. Byzantium arguably held the greek peninsula with all its mountains, turkey (with the vast and sparsely populated anatolia), probably as big as the Reach was. Westeros is a very large continent, not a single country. Values in the CK2 ASOIAF mod check out with the base game.
>>336369051
In 565 they would have held this more or less.
Numbers are always something that tend to get inflated by modern authors. Rule of cool and all that.
>>336369239
It's largely impractical to bring conscripts from Southern Spain to the eastern edge of the Empire though, which largely limits the amount of troops one can field. Also large swaths of lands are barely populated (nearly the whole southern mediterranean area save for a few spots on the coast and along the coast of the nile).
>>336368768
Run out of space, but I think I should also mention that the Byzantines retained the old Roman grandmastery of organization and logistics, so their field army sizes were at the bleeding edge of what period technology and infrastructure could do.
And that the Byzantines sat at the greatest trade hotspot of the age and thus had a lot of extra money to support large field and standing armies with.
>>336369576
>(nearly the whole southern mediterranean area save for a few spots on the coast and along the coast of the nile
What the fuck are you talking about
North africa always populated before germanic niggers and muslims literally burned everything there
>>336369879
Not densely though. The coast is definitely populated and so are the local rivers but everything else has very low population density. Pic related is nowadays, imagine what it was in 500.
>>336370062
You miss the part that it wasn't desert shithole it's now and that it was depopulated few times after Byzantine lost control over it
>>336370426
Lack of water and farmlands wasn't changed by whoever was in control. It's hard to irrigate unless you live near a river.
>>336356510
>there will never be lotr game set in the first age
>>336368505
Funnily enough he did inspire C.S. Lewis to write a fair bit of allegory by encouraging him to rediscover his religion.
>>336369239
A worthwhile experiment would be to check what the size of armies feudal holdings could summon, which I think might be more of a problem than territorial size - Hastings having maybe 20 thousand or so men total between the two sides, Dyrrhachium between the ERE and Normans having 40 thousand total between the two (20 thousand on either side, apparently once 30k for the Normans). Given the Normans were just of the Duchy of Southern Italy with inevitable norman adventurers and hangers-on that does lend credence to the idea of some of those feudal armies.
>>336369879
>>336370062
While the density of population would guarantee good agricultural/financial payback it doesn't guarantee a large source of militant manpower. Egypt's massive population was also a decidedly civilian sort as were the urban populations of the Aegean and Levant/Syria.
>>336370858
>>
>While the density of population would guarantee good agricultural/financial payback it doesn't guarantee a large source of militant manpower. Egypt's massive population was also a decidedly civilian sort as were the urban populations of the Aegean and Levant/Syri
Protomodern armies were not full time soldiers, just peasants levied by their local lord when needed. High pop density => high number of troops fieldable
>>336368768
Chances are that those numbers include support, supply, and logistics personnel, and are not the full "fighting number" of their standing armies.
Generally speaking, you require 1 person to support and supply every 3 soldiers you field.
>>336369051
Look at the field army, not the standing army. Apparently every other asshole in Westeros can supply and maneuver larger armies than Byzatines at the height of their prosperity could.
And even if talking about standing armies, 1 soldier per 50 citizens is a number fucked beyond belief. Something that only worked because the Byzantines sat in the place where all the trade from Europe met all the trade from Far East. Remember that Western Rome fell in part because, once separated from the East, it couldn't actually cover the expenses of maintaining its own empire.
>>336371354
Good point, but you still have to pay for the supply personnel, and they can't do anything else while supporting your war effort. It doesn't add up no matter how you cut it.
>>336370991
You don't understand - the people were not always willing and eager to serve, or were not capable in their service, or there were other reasons to look elsewhere to one's soldiery. You're talking like a modern 19th century onward nation state with the citizen soldier. Outside of tribal and irregular 'barbaric' societies the soldiery were rarely just peasants dragged off the field. This is especially the case for the high population areas like Egypt, the Syrian cities, the Aegean city-states.
Look at Egypt. When the Greeks established their diadochi state after Alexander died it took almost a century of rule to even begin to draft Egyptians in sizable numbers into their armies because of the paranoid fear of the colonized uprising against their foreign rulers. Instead they relied on Greek-Macedonian-Thracian soldier-settlers and mercenaries. Following the Roman's conquest of Egypt, outside of the inevitable need to refill the naturally depleting ranks of a local legion stationed in Egypt Egyptians ceased to be the primary source for recruits of armies ruling Egypt until the Khedives of Egypt in the 19th century almost 2 millenia later.
During the early Caliphate period they only used Egyptian Christians to help staff their navies and only in the sailing capacity. The soldiery was still the Arab Junds or Bedouin.
The Tulunids used Turkic slave warriors and black slave warriors almost exclusively. The Fatimids relied on Berbers, Arabs, Armenians, Blacks and Turks and not the native Egyptian Fellaheen.
The Ayyubids and succeeding Mamluks and Ottoman vassals that succeeded the Mamluks had a continued derisory view of the locals, relying exclusively on Turkic-Circassian slave warriors with a smattering of some blacks or bedouin held in very low esteem.
>>336371575
>And even if talking about standing armies, 1 soldier per 50 citizens is a number fucked beyond belief. Something that only worked because the Byzantines sat in the place where all the trade from Europe met all the trade from Far East. Remember that Western Rome fell in part because, once separated from the East, it couldn't actually cover the expenses of maintaining its own empire.
Because you compare oranges to apples. Soldiers were levied for a single campaign and released after that, not for a full long term service. Don't compare legionnaires with levied conscripts who will return to their fields once they're done fighting.
>>336364826
This. George Martin also plucks out all the worst events in medieval history and super condenses them down for his books.
Betrayals and Scandals were a very large deal back in the Middle Ages and happened only rarely, maybe once a generation. But GRRM has taken upon himself to steal every shocking event that ever happened in medieval history and cram it into the span of a few years in his books.
>>336372351
Fairly sure GRRM doesn't try to write our history but his own world's. Also they're a huge 5 year gap between AFFC and ADWD so it's not entirely surprising.
>>336364117
but this is extremely well designed, from a geographical standpoint
only thing that looks weird is the inland sea, given that the tectonic plate that comprises the land is the one going up
>>336372862
please tell m e you are joking
That's Europe you idiot
>>336371919
Apples still cost money to field, you pig-headed oaf. Armies cost money by dint of existing, and drag a gigantic supply train behind them wherever they go, which also costs money. That levy will still eat and shit and get sick and wounded and need his equipment maintained, and you either have to pay for that yourself or you need to pay him a wage so he can take care of it. Even the English chevalches during the Hundred Years War, which were basically about robbing as much of France as they could before retreating to Calais, cost a fortune in supplies just to gather and get going. An army of 30,000 cannot subsist on foraging, no matter what it consists of.
>>336356510
People thinking LOTR is just Elves, Dwarves, little People, stupid memes and that.
Nobody ever bothered to explore the setting in a worthwile game or film. The Jackson Versions were okay for a Hollywood adaption, probably the best treatment a work like that would have gotten.
What still pisses me off is shit like Shadow of Mordor or other tripe that just pretends to use the setting for a gimmicky game play. Instead of having a cool action adventure/ rpg with a cool guy we get an edgy retard.
>>336373156
don't expect me to notice a butchered, sideways europe.
>>336373348
If you want to explore ME, Lotro is probably the best game for that.
>>336374536
It's f2p so not worth time
But at least they tried during vanilla game to show north as a really dangereous shithole
>>336364117
What makes this picture 11/10 is that whatever this pic is mocking is (or was) true in real life.
Expect Baltic Sea, it looks like praying person which is quite nice.
>>336375038
LotRO and STO are two exceptions to the rule, I think, because they're too niche for regular MMO practices to work and don't appeal to Brbr & Ruski.
>>336375410
You are retarded, f2p games are shit not because it's allows poorfags to play, but because f2p design itself is garbage and no self respected person should ever touch it
This is why anyone with brain could tell that tree of saviour will be garbage
>>336375038
Too bad, because the amount of detail put into the actual game world is better than any other MMO, f2p or not
>>336375676
And I'm going to say again that lotro and sto are exceptions, but if you know best by all means ignore me.
/v/ - History & Humanities & Literature
>>336378698
More like /v/ - common knowledge
>>336376857
https://www.lotro.com/en/lotrostoresale
Looks pretty bad
