why are you so dead, MMO genre?
because nobody tries new things, and the people who make mmos aren't out to make a game that's just profitable, and they aren't making a game because they love the idea, they're all doing it because they want to be the next WoW and make megabucks. And because of this creatively bankrupt motivation, they just copy wow but with some unique twists.
>>336338627
Yeah, pretty much. MMOs are entirely about the meta now. If you don't learn all about the best strategies for everything then you can't team up with anyone without them raging at you.
I mean, yeah, those people are totally allowed to be that into the game's mechanics, and should be rewarded for it. It's just that because of those players anyone who wants to take things at their own pace, discover things on their own and form relationships based on your experiences together can't really have that.
I think the next MMO to be as big a hit as WoW was will have to completely ditch EVERYTHING about WoW, and be really focused on PvE and dynamic cooperative content you can't just minmax or macro, because if you want that you can just play WoW or the thousands of clones. And it's a shame because WoW has a lot of mechanics very conducive to good social experiences, but including those mechanics just makes you too much of a WoW clone and causes people to bring in expectations from WoW.
And if anyone knows any good MMOs that match what I said, please let me know.
>>336339348
Also doesn't help that though they are MMOs, the community and gameplay seems to support anti-social behaviors which renders the whole multiplayer aspect pointless.
It was always a gimmick genre.
>DUDE YOU GET TO PLAY WITH 1000 OTHER PEOPLE LMAO
Average modern normie has 10 different social network accounts spamming them with notifications non-stop, they already feel 'connected', so social aspect of MMOs long lost its novelty factor.
>tos will be great, it isn't being published by nexon get hype!
>turns out IMC games is more jew than nexon
that's why
though the sad reality is nothing could have helped the shit wowclone gameplay of tos anyways
I remember one MMO where you could do lots of stuff besides fighting,even having car races.But I don't remember the name.
>>336339541
>tfw you look at your normie and semi normie friends fb account
>15 notifications average at any given time
>look back to your own account
>1 or 2 and its just birthday reminders
>>336339465
This is for me what killed the MMO genre. People started wanting to do more and more things by themselves until most MMO just turned into a SP grindind dailies and farming unless you were raiding.
Chats beyond public and private is the nail in the coffin of mmos.
Seperate chats create closed communities only. You can't even fight me. This kills the MMO.
MMOs don't have to be new to be good.
Good MMOs are centred on community, and community doesn't have an expiration date.
If you want an example of one of the first and last bastions of good MMOs, I humbly invite you to come and try out Nexus:TK. As the second in command of a fifteen year old clan, I have a lot of resources to help introduce new players - and the entire community loves to see and help new faces.
If you're sick of modern themepark mmos, these community-orientated settings are a breath of fresh air.
How many so called "WoW killers" have we had?
f2p
microtransactions
>>336339541
Not really, despite how social everyone is, there's still very few games where you are legitimately teaming up and interacting with more than like 60~ people.
EVE is the ultimate example of an MMO, despite having kind of shit gameplay.
A good MMO would have cities populated entirely by players, with every player taking a different role. If we go with an RPG as a base, there would be adventurers who go dungeon diving for resources to sell to shops, shops would sell the resources to crafters, crafters would create weapons and goods and sell them to shops and traders, there would be entire companies dedicated to shipping and delivering weapons, goods and resources between towns, there would be bandits that try to raid these shipments, there would be mercs that protect shipments, there would be governments and armies that fight other cities and realms, all of the businesses would be run by players and employ players, players would have to be mentored by other players in order to get experience in their chosen jobs, basically everything in the game would be designed entirely by players, potentially even the cities and buildings themselves would all be created by players and raised from tiny camps to small towns to big cities.
THAT is the potential an MMO has, and it can't be explored because everything is so slavish to WoW's mechanics.
>>336339916
But Im shit at socialising,I hardly ever chat when playing,only join guilds for the raids and adding random neckbeards who are even more boring than me doesn't sound appealing.What do I do?
>>336340035
>>336339916
NexusTK has player-run governments and armies, with constant tension between the three kingdoms - and, indeed, player-run rebel factions. Even subpaths are run and managed by players. Clans can build their own maps by sacrificing wealth to the gods. Subpaths all have master/pupil relationships for aspirants.
The game is old, and obviously some of those aspects are technically limited - but the vision is there and alive. Even today it recieves updates from the owners.
Take a look at the recent statement from the gamemaster: http://boards.nexustk.com/DreamWeaver/wony04131233.html
>>336340207
>want to play an mmo
>doesn't want to be social
Have you considered another genre?
Nobody is boring here, though, really. Games like this make you appreciate everyone as a person.
>>336338410
For a number of reasons:
#1: WoW. If it's not WoW or a "WoW Killer" then investors/publishers don't wanna give you money (and mmos are expensive). So this means that all MMOs "need" to be giant open-world fantasy adventure games with cut and paste PvE missions, PvP entirely based on Metagaming, "builds", and equipment drops, and minimal effort assets and story, with the entire focus on balancing PvP.
#2: Modern social issues. When Everquest launched, we didn't worry about the option to select male or female characters "triggering" players. Today, players cry over not being able to put a dress on their male character, or having "sexy underwear" on their female character because a sports bra and cotton panties qualify as that now.
#3: Gaming companies don't want to spend money. Everything is back to being about a bottom dollar. MMOs are expensive. And everybody who can make an object in Java wants to get paid 6 figure salaries to work on a game now. So keeping a bunch of these dudes on a team for the next 6 years, along with artists, support staff, maintenance staff, and office, servers, etc. is big money. And that means less profits. Which means BAD to companies like EA/Activision/Bethesda/Etc
#4: Casual gamers. They're here to stay. They're the mass market. When games like Dark Souls became "omfg, so tough funnie meme", we all knew that the game world had given up. Casual gamers want their satisfaction quick, rapidly, and easily. None of which an MMO that isn't WoW manages to do. Grinding, low drop percentages, crafting, P2P item sales, anything that takes time is the enemy of mass market gaming. And its even worse if they can't do it when they want, where they want. Which means visually intense and beautiful MMOs will never be a thing again.
>>336339916
>>336340302
I've gotta go now -
But on behalf of the Bear Clan of Koguryo, you are invited to the kingdoms.
Drop me, Astrael, a letter in-game if you're interested in help getting on your feet or a place to call home.
>>336340035
You know, I actually got a little emotional when reading this.
I am very passionate about everything you said, and I think you're one of the few people that really get it.
Can't we just win the lottery for billions and team up with more people like you and create the greatest game the world has ever known?
>>336340931
>#2
This issue is extremely small. Nobody really gives a shit about those people. If they're apparently such a big deal, why are none of the MMOs still coming out bothering with any of that stuff?
>>336338627
This. The entirety of this.
i'm thankful to have played the golden age of mmos before wow
>>336341263
Same here
>>336338410
When is ToS going F2P? I heard it would be any day now. There's no way I'm paying a founder pack for testing it.
>>336339348
FFXIV fits that bill pretty much perfectly. I played it since release (original and ARR) and really enjoyed it, but it is literally a WoW clone in most areas. I'm pretty sure if it didn't have the FF brand on it it would have flopped immediately.
FFXIV is the perfect example of a game that just plays it safe and slowly rakes in NEETbucks. They even had the whole cosmetic microtransaction shit (which lots of people willingly bought).
At its core the game is pretty bland and doesn't do anything new or innovative, but it takes what other MMOs (mainly WoW) did and does them quite well (PvP is absolute dogshit though).
Like you say, it's all about the meta for any endgame raids. I used to make sheets and guides about stat/rotation optimisation, raid strategies etc. and at the time I just thought "whatever", but later on I started finding it pretty sad that people would post party recruitment ads with descriptions like "must have watched video, know up to phase 3" etc., like there's just one solution to the raid with no room for discovery or creativity.
Didn't mean to turn it into blogshit but basically you're right and there are a lot of WoW clones out there. I doubt we'll ever get a truly innovative and fun MMO because all devs do is either play it safe, or sort of do something new but still hold on to the old WoW staples so you end up with a mess between two different styles of game.
>Miyazaki is in charge of Fromsoft now, not shills who just want to suck at the withered teat of dark souls' popularity for all it's worth
>has gone on record saying he wants to make a game that's like Ultima Online
M-maybe he'll save the genre, friends. It's possible, right?
>>336338410
Almost every MMO since wow has had garbage combat because they don't try to improve upon wow combat at all.
Almost every MMO is skill spamming targeted nonsense.
>>336338410
because no one will make ultima online 2. disregard all that trammel and felucca bullshit the expansions added to the original.
black desert is alive and well, been having a blast. played a month and still not bored
>>336338410
Because MMO players want to play solo.
Because "hardcore" MMO players think combat and raids are the only thing that matters.
That's it.
>>336341908
shill please go.
>>336339824
>showing your birthday at facebook
>having the notification thing turned on for your own birthday
how fucking narcistic faggot you are? no one cares about your bd
>>336341725
Given he's yet to produce a finished or good game, no.
>>336341934
what retard? the game is good
>>336342007
Those are default settings dude what the hell is wrong with you
>>336338410
Because 1) developers don't realise that they're supposed to be promoting community growth above all else, and 2) because you want everything given to you.
>>336339862
>play FF14
>no map chat
>/shout is "rude"
>nobody talks in dungeons unless someone fucks up badly
>only communication I ever see is <please invite> <The Hunt>
>>336342084
if you dont disable them you are fucking faggot.
>feeling the need to show off your own birthday to people who obviously dont care
>trying to fish for "congrulations" for your birthday
pathetic
>want to play a nice game with other people
>every mmo I bother to try out is "stand still and mash attacks then different attacks then move when they do they big attack with 5 seconds of telegraphing"
PSO2 was okay but basically turned out to be the same thing once you got the specific "this is the only thing that makes your class worth using" build down.
>>336340035
This sounds good in theory but you'd have to incentivise "boring" stuff like being a shop/innkeeper otherwise everyone will just be adventurers. Sure, some people might enjoy just chilling in cities but they're going to be the very small minority.
I think SWTOR sort of did the "different jobs" thing with the good/evil/bounty hunter roles, but I never played it so I don't know much about it. There's also the matter of setting up that entire system in the first place and making sure it's balanced. Don't get me wrong I like this idea but it requires a lot of time and planning which I don't think modern devs are willing to do.
Because almost every game in the genre has the same mechanics and UI with a different coat of paint.
>don't stand in the enemy AOE
>spam hotkeys
>no incentive to socialize or group up
>level in a zone for a few levels and never have to go back ever again
>don't have to read quest text
>every patch is datamined instantly
>everybody is a min/maxing faggot
>high latency so you can't have interesting gameplay
>all hard content is in some instance completely removed from the world
>no ability to affect the world
>all mobs just pace back and forth mindlessly
I just want some sandbox to screw around in, not this guided quest chain/raid shit.
>>336342254
>you'd have to incentivise "boring" stuff
Station trading in EVE is alive and well. The incentive is that it's highly profitable so doing it for a while makes you enough money to coast for a while and have fun until you need money again. Or you could just be a megaJew and make money forever.
>>336342104
/shout chat is fucking cancer. It's just non-stop low-tier memes and arguments.
>>336342365
As far as I am concerned FF14 is a single player game where you recruit bots to do a dungeon for/with you. I unsubbed.
Really enjoyed the story in Heavensward though. Wish FF15 was that, instead of that gay boyband shit.
>>336338410
Because Blizzard solved it. It is a complete genre, a solved problem. There is nothing more to be found there.
World of Warcraft is the best MMO, and every other MMO after can't hope to succeed.
Similarly, Star Craft II is the best RTS, and thats why all RTS after it are garbage. Both RTS and MMO are solved genres, Blizzard got the answer to the riddle, so its no use trying anymore.
You may consider the ARPG genre to be solved by Diablo III, and the card game genre by Hearthstone, and soon the team based shooter to be completed by Overwatch.
Basically nobody should bother releasing in a genre that Blizzard did, more or less, since Blizzard games tend do be THE GAME in that genre, the definitive answer to the question there, and all other answers cant hold up.
Blizzard kills genres by being too good at their craft.
inb4 hipster haters claiming WoW isnt the best MMO, when it is the most successful one, and since it released nothing has managed to get anywhere near its level.
>want to play in a game with thousands of other players in the same world
>Garrisons
>>336338410
It wasn't a good genre to begin with. Now that the novelty goggles are off, people realize they're not actually fun.
>combining MMORPGs with Diablo style "COLLECT THE BIGGER NUMBERS" loot and omg hardcore raiding endgame!
this was the point where everything went wrong. From the moment the word "endgame" came to mean what it means in mmos today, the genre was doomed. Community was dead. Adventure was dead. All that was left is reading up strategies and optimizing your itemization.
>>336342481
>ramen
>that pathetic amount of broth
No.
>>336342564
black desert is nothing like that. try it out
>>336342481
>Blizzard kills genres by being too good at their craft.
If that were true, MOBAs would have died when Heroes of the Storm came out.
>>336342481
Is this bait?
>>336341083
>smart enough to realize the flaws in the MMO games of today
>too incompetent to learn programming to actually carry it out
Maybe someday I'll be wealthy able to hire a team of loyal programmers and promise them they money they'll need to live comfortably as the program the game of my dreams, but that day is not today...
>>336342657
A notable exception. The other ones being Diablo III on release and Warcraft III prior to the expansion, and their older stuff.
>>336341908
>>336342060
>>336342629
Fuck off shill, you're not fooling anyone.
>>336341085
Because there hasn't been a AAA MMO since Star Wars: The Old Republic, which not only featured same-sex romance options because bioware, but spawned BOOKS such as: http://thoughtcatalog.com/book/gender-dynamics-in-star-wars-the-old-republic-a-focus-on-female-characters/
>>336341908
>Black Desert
>not dead
>good
>ghillie desert online
>>336339348
>remember running VC the first time
>get to boss
>does anyone not know this fight? OK hang back let me explain before we start
>running any dungeon post WotLK
>get to anything
>anyone not know this fight?
>HOW FUCKING DARE YOU NOT MEMORIZE EVERYTHING BEFORE YOUR FIRST TIME DOING THIS
>vote kicked
And that's when I dropped the game
>played GW for almost 6 years
>GOTYAY
>bought GW2 on release day
>played for 6 months and dropped it because it's utter shit
>>336342773
>Save the sand people by putting this antidote in their poisoned water well
>Get to the water well by slaughtering the sand people
That was one hell of a trainwreck.
>>336342716
Do you disagree? Why? Explain yourself, prove me wrong.
>>336341818
I actually liked publish 16, which was after the Trammel and Felucca split, more than any other time in UO. Champion spawns and the Harrower gave real reason for guilds to actually control dungeons, and it resulted in a lot of great fights and contention between guilds.
>>336342857
Your points were rhetoric and buzzword. It's still up to you to prove your initial point.
>>336342849
One hell of a trainwreck that made over a billion dollars.
Thanks whales.
>>336342845
>its utter shit
>but i played for half a year
If you played it that long, you liked it. You may refuse to say it, but you clearly did, else you wouldn't spend your time with it.
>>336339710
Mabinogi maybe.
>>336342254
It's incentivised by getting paid for it. Adventurers will largely be where the minmax people go, and the lower tier, on-corporate owned shops will have a place because people newer to the game will need a source for their lower tier armor.
This way you get lots of different types of players. Some types of people will prefer the different kinds of crafting, especially if they're designed in ways that can involve some creativityand randomness for that casino money that all MMOs loveso there's more to it than just looking up a chart with the most efficient recipes. Some types of players will prefer managing lots of stores. Some players will like being an independent store and some will like being part of a chain with the potential to move up a corporate ladder at the expense of creativity.
EVE is proof that this type of player-driven economy can work, it just needs better gameplay and more variety. Obviously most of the government and top players will be autismos but people who hate that will be satisfied setting out with a small group of players to make their own small town or camp. This keeps the government from just making taxes ridiculously high, as towns and countries will have to compete with each other.
There's so much potential for a game like that, especially if the developers keep adding things that shake things up and keep the game from just being a minmax grindfest. Since most of the content and quests are created by the players, the developers will have more time to focus on adding content instead of balancing older content.
Maybe the developers can have natural disasters or great monsters that happen to balance out the game a little, or their avatars can be gods that step in to fuck things up.
Having a variety of gameplay will keep the population big and the problem of EVE where the big players just crush all the smaller ones won't exist.
>>336342845
>only 6 months on a single game
>>336342773
>>336342849
>>336342908
I remember all the TORtanic threads on here when that shit came out. It was wonderful to watch all our predictions come true and see that game fail.
>>336342841
>you didn't watch a youtube video before doing the boss!?? lol noob
>>336342904
>i dont like your arguments
Not an argument.
>>336342841
Which boss in VC required knowledge though?
>play WoW way back in Vanilla
>loved Warcraft so Alliance vs Horde made me excited
>open world pvp was fun as hell
>Tarren Mill mothefuckers
>organizing pvp raids on Capital Cities
>Blizzard starts implementing shit that hinders open world pvp and attacking cities
>can already see the future of WoW being carebear shit
>unsub
>Warhammer Online
>entire game is about attacking the other sides capital, everything you do is working towards that goal
>fuck yes this is exactly what I want
then the game came out and I learned to never ever believe what developers say to hype their shit game ever again
>>336342481
Even if we assume WoW IS the best MMO currently, it's hardly the only type of MMO that's possible.
Destiny is kind of shitty and ultimately is still a grindfest loot game, but it shows there is room for the genre to expand past WoW's type of gameplay.
>>336342926
I forced myself to try to like it because it was a sequel to my favorite game of all time, but I just couldn't stand it any more in the end.
>>336343049
It's not that I didn't like them, it's that you said "Blizzard has solved all genres they're involved in" and left it at that. It's literally impossible to refute that because you never actually made a point to refute.
>>336343096
I never claimed that different, lesser MMOs are possible.
I am sure there are many varied and creative ways to make a worse game than World of Warcraft.
>>336343041
Didn't even have youtube luxury, you just had to read wowwiki and hope you figured it out. I really just hated the game at that point, it wasn't even a fucking heroic, get a grip.
>>336343091
Open-world community games do not sell or market well because casual sociopaths and neckbearded autists want it easy and casual - no interaction, autoqueue, no talking, no community.
A city raid would terribly sadden and trigger them, and they would unsub.
Playing MMOs is like being addicted to drugs. You're always chasing that next fix, but it's never as good as your first time.
>>336343041
>>336342841
this is why I stopped doing dungeons in XIV and stuck to fishing until I got bored. It's like you arent allowed to play the game if you werent there when the patch or whatever dropped
>>336342773
There's nothing wrong with including same-sex romances, why do you feel it's a good thing to limit player options because you don't like it? Do you not see how hypocritical it is to ask for things to be removed because you're offended by them?
Also who cares about what retards write books, go to Barnes and Noble and see how many gay-ass books like "Philosophy and Metallica" there are. Literally anyone can write a book. What a stupid point to make.
the real problem is that everyone just makes the same game. there's so much left to be explored with shared persistent worlds but that's not where the money is, and mmos just cost too much to develop and maintain to not follow the dosh.
>>336343143
>you left after stating your conclusion
Yes. And before stating it, I reasoned towards it.
Look at RTS. Many games, busy genre. Blizzard competes in it. Then Star Craft II is released, and the genre "dies". Not that the genre dies, but rather every other game was dead on arrival, because SCII was better than it.
Same with MMORPGs. All games released after WoW werent as good as it, and thus failed. Constant failure led to developers withdrawing from the genre. The genre itself isnt dead, as WoW isnt dead, but every other game except for WoW is, often on arrival.
When a genre is "killed" by Blizzard releasing a game in it, because it sucks in all the players and nothing compares, you are left with one conclusion. Blizzard must be good at their jobs.
You wanna know why?
People.
People are the reason mmo's were ever successful in the first place.
I remember my first time playing Ragnarok Online, everyone I bumped into would say hi and talk to me for a bit, some people would even talk to me for hours.
I made tons of friends and couldn't wait to get home from school and talk to them and progress together.
But now, it's just rush to the endgame.
There's no more interacting with strangers, in the case of Tree of Savior everyone is just shitposting frequently in the global chat.
People were the reason MMOs were fun, People are now the reason why they are not, or rather, a lack there of.
>>336343291
>Then Star Craft II is released, and the genre "dies".
Because that's also right around when MOBA games became huge.
>>336343091
Don't blame the warhammer online devs. Blame EA. It's their standard tactic to buy up devs and then just release their products in an unfinished state at the point where they think they can make the most cash off of it (note they forced out warhammer online like a month before wrath of the lich king)
Then they just started picking out programmers and feeding them to hamburger hepler so she could shit out more SJW trash.
The remaining skeleton crew fixed and finished the game but nobody was willing to give it a second chance and EA shut it down unceremoniously at the first opportunity.
>>336343219
>armchair psychology
What you are trying, and failing, to say can be applied to going to Paris, building your first PC, your first date or kiss, getting your book published, taking your first car for its first ride, etc.
Or for any video game.
>>336343052
The game was still new so knowing what to do had to be spread organically, shit like standing on the wheel if someone pulled too much was told to everyone beforehand.
When I quit it was rush into fights expecting everyone to know it and then kicking anyone that didn't memorize every millisecond beforehand
>>336343291
Starcraft 2 killed RTS's because there was so much hyped piled onto the game that coming to terms with how underwhelming the game is has left people cynical. The game wasn't fun in the least bit.
>>336343146
But just because WoW supposedly perfected the Diablo-influenced MMO doesn't make it the perfect MMO. It's only one single approach to the massively-multiplayer concept that by its nature doesn't include many, many potential concepts that could be better.
Your second sentence does expose you as baiting though, so try again next thread.
>>336343363
Now its your time to reason, instead of randomly dropping who else was born on that date and acting victorious.
>>336343369
>Don't blame the warhammer online devs.
I can and I will.
I'm just glad I wasn't one of the poor people who were constantly being charged sub fees even after they unsubbed.
>>336339916
UO has been running since 1997 and if it wasn't for the dedicated community it'd be dead in ~2005. Damn, I love that game.
>>336343363
This.
SC2 is a kpm spam made for Korea and for watching, not playing. MOBAs, however, took this title for being both casual-friendly and watchable esport.
Currently, games need to fulfil at least one thing:
casual
social
microtransactions
esport
Otherwise they are not marketable to whatever fucking target group and meme/buzzword-ridden reddit the devs are reading.
>>336338410
10 years from now I will make the greatest mmo
>>336343471
EA bought them, and forced their game out before it was finished. The devs did nothing wrong.
>>336343469
MOBA games pretty much replaced RTS as a genre in the mainstream.
>>336343443
>The game wasn't fun in the least bit.
I guess thats why people flocked to other RTS games.... oh wait, SCII is the only RTS being played. I guess you are wrong.
>>336338410
>Game goes live on Steam
>F2P servers are only available 3 months later.
Doubt I'll be playing this shit
>>336343383
You don't get addicted to kisses or PCs, hur dur.
WoW killed MMOs. Thanks WoW.
>/tosg/ shitposters posting on /v/ because their servers are down for 24 hours
Back to your containment center you fuck
>>336343546
Thats a nice claim. Let me provide a counter claim: you are wrong.
Now unless you back yours up, mine is as valuable.
>>336343512
Start 10 years ago you fuck
>>336343565
RTS is low on esport, not casual, not social, has no microtransactions. Dead genre in the eyes of those with money. SC2 rode on its name and Korea fame.
>>336338627
What makes MMO not the next WoW copy? Like are there any specific bits?
>>336343565
Yes, because like I said it left people cynical about getting into new games. It's like that girl you think about night and day, until eventually you finally get with her and realise she's a complete bitch. Leaves you cynical about trying again.
>>336343284
Yeah. All the big attempts (TORtanic, ESO, FFXIV) are still just modifications of WoW. Maybe it's just too risky to try something different, but I have a hard time believing that something like I said up here >>336342986
wouldn't be a huge hit, even with a subscription. I'm positive part of the reason ESO was somewhat successful is that people imagined it'd be as open as an actual Elder Scrolls game.
Someone like Valve or Blizzard needs to put a bunch of money into something like this, because, and maybe I'm naive for thinking this, something that totally eschews WoW's gameplay on every level is the only thing that could possible beat WoW at this point.
>>336343594
They changed it from 3 months to 1 month.
You shouldn't play it regardless because it's shit.
>>336338410
No content. It's not fun having to run the same end game dungeons thousands of times just for gear so you can run the same end game dungeons more efficiently. Not to mention that because of this the game ends up being PvE focused and results in a shit tier unbalanced mess of a PvP scene.
>elsword
>>336338410
racism and you
just kill each other
>>336343601
You don't get addicted to MMOs either, dumbass. You get addicted to a chemical release in your head, which gets triggered by 9001 things.
>>336343512
I'll hold you up to that promise anon
>>336342841
sucks that happened to you but I've played multiple dungeons/raids in wow where I didn't know the mechanics and had them explained to me. you'd only get kicked if you kept fucking up
>>336343672
>let me repeat my empty unproven claim, in case you missed it
>also I'll add this bad analogy
How about you either make a point and back it, or fuck off?
>>336343091
>organizing pvp raids on Capital Cities
One of my fondest memories was a raid of low level players stripping naked and running from Orgrimmar all the way to Stormwind
Lot's of alliance confusion, being murderered by guards and players, and me not doing my homework. Complete waste of time for everyone involved but it was fun.
>>336338410
Meanwhile on Byond Engine, it's might not be massive, but it's definitely got the multiplayer online nailed to a notch
Space Station 13 must be one of the funnest game i ever played
>>336343660
I think the big thing they need to let go of is this stuff >>336342564
MMORPGs should be about having adventures with people in a big open world. Not canned experiences that are only fun and new once, and everyone just watches videos and gets a single optimal strat and everything is for the sake of increasing numbers on your character sheet.
Basically MMORPGs should just be like a less primitive ultima online. As long as they have a raid focused "endgame" and the rest of it is just a grind you have to get through to get to this endgame mecca of numbers and raiding as a second job you have to pay for and shitting in socks, MMOs will always suck
Would a rune factory-esque mmo make it?
>dungeon crawl, collecting shit to sell, seeds and collecting monsters
>get your farm lot at level 15
>breed and hybridize any living thing you collect
>make money selling unique hybrids to other players
>dungeons have a chance of containing a rare beast/fish/seed type
>only thing in the cash shop is premium fertilizer/pet clothes
>>336338410
the MMO genre got ridden hard by companies that don't care about it. The genre itself was built up on ambitions and dreams. No one would have ever played Everquest or UO if they thought the games wouldn't last forever and keep improving.
Players have seen too many games come and die within 5 years of its release one too many times. They eventually wised up and thought "maybe I value my time more than wasting it on a game that will have a service closure notice in a few years".
>>336342564
>omg hardcore raiding endgame
What endgame is there, then? Legion is dungeons, raids, world PvP and PvP. Crafters are required for raids and you have to go out into the world for World Quests.
>>336344091
There shouldn't fucking be an endgame that turns everything that isn't that endgame in to a grind that you silently power through to get to the 'real' game. There should just be a game.
>>336344149
Vanilla had endgame, every MMO has had endgame. The only way your proposed (stupid) idea would work was if there were no levels at all, there is always going to be content only unlocked at the highest level.
>>336344253
Its fine having things to do at the end, dumbass. The problem is having EVERYTHING at the end, and just a fucking grind on the way there.
>>336344057
This is exactly what I want. I want the relaxation of a farm sim/dungeon crawler with the friendliness of other people.
>>336340035
Wurm Online tried this, and it's not exactly one of the most popular MMOs ever created. In Wurm, all settlements are player made, all goods player crafted, with player created goods trading networks (roads, ships, etc).
Runescape also tried this, at least the crafting part, but because any player could max every skill, there was never any incentive to specialize and to trade.
>>336344330
>having everything at the end
Dungeons, world PvP, crafting, PvP is part of leveling you stupid cunt.
>>336344384
sounds like you want old mabinogi
don't we all
>>336344443
When the preferred way to level up a crafting profession is to get to max level ASAP and then pick it up and level it from scratch once you are maxed, this means your game is poorly balanced and the bulk of stuff to do is at the end.
Same with world PvP, same with dungeons. There are less dungeons, and people do them less often, at all levels except max. PvP is distributed more evenly, but only because of twink characters, and those require another hero to be maxed to feed them items.
Basically the majority of the content in the game is for max level only, or balanced in such a way so that people see it as being stupid, suboptimal and wasteful to do it on levels other than max.
Its a race to the end, because at the end you see the good stuff, instead of having it sprinkled all over the game.
>>336338410
why was dragons dogma online so boring and heartless
Anyone else played Mabinogi?
>Beta gets released
>See there's a Bard system
>Play that shit, it's pretty fun
>Raising your skills while talking to other people
>Also doing dungeons and traveling the world with other people
>Playing music with people coming around you and listening to your shit or talk to you and others while waiting for the Moon Gate to come up
>Getting a shit ton of pals by a snap of a finger
And then they released a new Continent, and bots soaked in through all the town, i left that sinking ship fast enough
>>336344253
you're an idiot if you can't divorce MMORPGs from World of Warcraft. Go play Ultima Online and realize you're a moron.
>>336344705
Asians can't make video games.
>>336344764
Flat out best game, ruined it with the combat update and allowing people to solo shit
>>336344776
seriously it was good for like a couple hours, but once you hit level 40 the crafting requirements are like fucking all your gold, tons of grindy materials, and having to wait like 5 hours for your pawn to be done crafting
and even then at that point everything is a reskin
and you have to grind bullshit lengths to upgrade skills, which are useless until they get to +10
>>336344653
>when the preferred way to level up a crafting profession is to get to max level ASAP and then pick it up and level it from scratch once you are maxed, this means your game is poorly balanced
There's nothing stopping you from doing it while leveling. That's leveling content.
>same with world PvP
World PvP is mostly done during leveling because you're all walking through the same zones at the same time and it's the biggest bulk of players. So no.
>same with dungeons
It'll likely be 50/50 now because dungeons are a viable end game progression type now.
>there are less dungeons
So? You still do dungeons while leveling up, that means by definition it's part of the non-endgame content.
>basically the majority of the content in the game is for max level only
That's observably untrue as LITERALLY and OBJECTIVELY there are 5-6 types of content not locked to endgame and only two locked to endgame.
>>336344019
>>336340931
Your post is pretty good especially #3.
The funny thing is, keyboard monkeys all try to get a job in a video game company. The same job in industrial field now pay 20% more because every new graduate want to work for aaa games.
>>336338410
MMO aren't dead, just uncreative amd afraid to take risks.
WoW still has at least a million people playing, FFXIV has hundreds of thousands of active non trial characters according to the latest census, BnS is still one of the top grossing MMOs in Korea, EvE and FFXI are still running after more than a decade and got 20k+ active characters .
>>336338410
What killed the genre for me is the fact that everything is in a wiki guide or on YouTube before launch nothing to discover,no secrets, just follow the optimized way to do everything if you don't suffer the consequences.
Anyone here play Blade and Soul? Looks interesting but the artstyle is a bit offputting for me.
>>336342481
What did World of WarCraft do differently, outside of story and aesthetic which, obviously, will be unique for each game?
In terms of game mechanics, World of WarCraft had LESS to offer than the last popular MMO before it, Dark Age of Camelot.
You sound like a WoW fanboy who knows nothing about the genre outside of that one game. People who started WoW having played stuff like EverQuest and Dark Age of Camelot called it the 'duplo' of MMOs.
And that's exactly what's killing it right now. Even though it's appeal was as a more casual MMO, they made it casual to the point where nothing is challenging and you just grind easy content.
I remember when i began World of Warcraft back in 2006, i barely knew English since it's not my original language, but i quickly learned how to make groups and make small talk through observing others. I became a leader to a small raiding guild and tried to do shit when i could.
And now? It's practically retards grouping with other retards to do dungeons and raid through one button press and not a single one chat it up apart from shitting on each others if shit goes to the gutter.
I don't really miss Vanilla since i played all it's content, but what i do miss is games with Vanilla feel. I'd pay for WoW servers that banish the party/raid button, remove Cross-realm and forces people to group the old fashioned way.
>>336339916
Looks like a worse Ragnarok Online desu
>>336338410
It's not. Come play with us leika-ro.net
>>336346303
>online: 64
nice try buddy
>>336346203
>dark age of camelot is dead
>everquest is dead
>wow has millions of subscribers
Guess you are wrong.
>>336346303
I kinda liked the idea, but i don't want to play with high ping
I could probably have a little fun with GW2 or FFXIV just playing with some random guild(s) but I don't really feel like leveling in either one...
I'm going to try project gorgon I guess. I liked AC
>>336342153
So much projection
How about this one?
I could play that if it weren't empty/ded now (I don't know how it on official servers right now, is anyone there?). But after I looked it up on orgin I've noticed it has been turned into another pay2win buy levels shit by ea jewery.
I'm also thinking about eve online, is it doing fine?
Aren't those mmos that should fill the void created by wow-alikes?
>>336342307
have you ever heard of mortal online?
it's a good sandbox to immerse oneself in.. the only MMO I've played that I can actually play any way I want and feel satisfied
>>336341658
I'd have to argue about that video point.
I'm a new player and it isnt that much effort to watch a 3min video to prevent a future unecessary wipe.
>>336338627
MMO's were always just an excue for a grindfest of many forms.
WoW had its own era and came at the right time, but in reality it is mediocre at best in comparison to modern MMO's.
I honestly dont mind playing the next MMO treadmill, because that's what I came for - turning my brain off.
If I ever want to play a game with actual gameplay then there are plenty of options out there.
>>336339348
Camelot Unchained seems to be what you're describing, but it isn't out yet.
>>336347106
i don't think that was his point, the fact that people expect everyone that doesn't clear the content on the first hour of patch day is one of the many cancers killing mmos
>>336338410
Lack of player interaction and the forced WOW clone.
Fuck off with your hotbar combat and make it so players actually have to do stuff with eachother. Player to player trading only, noduty finding no ANYTHING that removes contact between one player and others.
Why is it always standard fantasy setting anyway? Nothing turns me away more than boring characters with a boring outside setting you need to read pages of lore to actually get enjoyment out of.
>>336338627
>not trying new things
A lot of them try new things, just the ideas aren't very well implemented. LotRO tried making legendary weapons that grew with your character and had legacies and all that inspired by Sting and Glamdring and Anduril... but the implementation of it was terrible. They also tried Mounted combat, you know, inspired by the Rohirrim and all that.. but the implementation was terrible. They wanted the horses to have momentum but people don't LIKE that their horse controls like a semi truck on ice skates.
GW2 was full of new ideas, not built around questing being the biggest one.
Age of Conan, TERA, TESO, and Wildstar all shook up the stale combat formula of most MMO's.
TESO and SWTOR tried more traditional RPG questing, with dialogue choices and conversations rather than just a box of text with an accept button, and they are fully voice acted at that.
But as to OP's question? Why? Because the genre went from a niche genre, with a handful of games where people were dedicated to the idea of playing with a bunch of random strangers, to a mainstream genre starting with WoW where they became much more solo oriented, to everyone wanting a piece of that WoW audience and there's simply too much competition over the market, so there's a lot of ded gaems, not to mention the F2P model, which transitions games from putting out content.. to putting out cosmetic outfits for real cash.
TESO has the idea of putting out DLC content packs, which is a nice idea.. but at $20 and $30 per new zone, it's priced ridiculously.
Gaming technology has improved through the years, but networking technology barely has, resulting in most MMO games being the same boring auto attack hotbar formula that is acceptable in a massively multiplayer environment without resulting in unbearable latency related issues.
>>336339465
see it's interesting. Guild Wars 2 has tried to make the game more social in a lot of ways, no tagging, everyone who hits the mobs gets loot, mining and logging nodes are shared so nobody can be an antisocial dick and steal from you and for awhile after launch, people used to broadcast where the T6 nodes were in map chat (now they're just not rare enough for people to bother anymore), anyone can res anyone regardless of class, so if you see some random dude die, you can res them up, and people are generally thankful for it. The event system allows for people to participate with each other and it's fun and all, there's a sense of "Jolly Cooperation" throughout the game.. except...
You never really get to know people.
There was a time at first when they had individual servers and there was somewhat of a server community, where you'd get to know regular people in map chat and all, but outside of my guild, I know very very few people. Since you never actually have to group you don't learn the names of the people you are fighting next to. Since there was overflows of popular maps you saw people from other servers so you never really expected server communities to develop, and Megaserver killed that completely.
>>336340931
>#2
wut? TERA makes its money off of sexy female cosmetic items. That's why new classes are only for female characters.
GW2 also has ample fan service in its cosmetics for female characters.
>>336343276
Nothing is wrong with same-sex romances unless Bioware is writing the dialogue
>>336349161
The launch for that game was so exciting until the honeymoon period wore off
>wow I'm fighting a random boss in the world with 50 other people
>boss dies
>everybody instantly runs off without saying anything
>every single time
>>336343696
>ESO
>modification of WoW
but how? It's more a single player Elder Scrolls game (without game changing mods, just UI mods) that you see other random people playing and can group up for world bosses, dungeons, and trials and PVP. The combat isn't like WoW (it's not sticky targeting, limited action skillset more like guild wars than WoW), the questing is different from WoW (instead of picking up 7-8 quests from one hub and doing them all in the same area, each sub area of a region basically has 1 more drawn out story driven quest)
I mean, the game is definitely not that great, but having played both, I just don't see it as a WoW clone, GW2 and TESO are 2 that I've played that I really can't say are WoW clones.
>>336348756
Combat seems to be improving though.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZBZlAq2S6c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bFt2qF_As8I
If you want to go compare that to something from 2006-2010 times. Doesn't seem to be saving the genre or the games however.
>>336349757
It's just weird I mean yeah, it's jolly coop as fuck but instead of making lasting friendships, you get a lot of casual acquaintances. I started replaying LotRO again after they did their big server merge and it's crazy how well I got to know people even outside of my guild I mean people remembered me from 4-5 years ago and we used to talk all the time, and like people get personal, you talk to people from your server and you know so and so got cancer, so and so got married to someone irl that they met on the server.. WoW was kind of the same way (but I haven't gone back to playing it since Wrath), you really got to know your server, there were rivalries that had people betting gold over arranged duels and people setting up bounties for people they didn't like in their own faction over the forums. Then you go back to GW2, and yeah you have "friends" but you really don't know them that well.
GW2 would have done better with keeping individual server communities and just merging dead servers.
TESO never having individual servers to begin with killed any chances of developing any real community.
>>336349986
>hiding the UI
Okay who cares about more fluid animations, what people are sick of are tab target/autoattack combat systems. Blade and Soul DEFINITELY looks tab targetted, can't really tell if Black Desert is or not.
>>336350574
>can't really tell if Black Desert is or not.
There is no targeting system in BDO, you have to aim your shit and using action bar shortcuts for skills instead of their designated combo increases the mana cost
>>336350804
see that's an actual combat improvement. Blade and soul just looks like tab targetting shit all over again.
There's a few other games that have tried that though, wildstar, TESO, TERA, and GW2 to some extent (they added an action camera mode that's toggleable that allows the game to play like TERA basically), and I'd say those games are improving combat in the genre. However network latency and such sometimes makes those combat systems not work as well.
>>336349161
>Since you never actually have to group you don't learn the names of the people you are fighting next to.
Guild Wars 2 had a place for that.
It's called WvW. Of course it's still up to you to get to know the regular defenders and commanders though. However if you're defending your keep at 3am with 5 guys and siege against a french undead horde you're simply bound to bond with the guys.
>>336350574
Wasn't really trying to cherrypick to hide the UI, but anyway BDO even has a system where it costs less resources to use skills if you don't use them from a hotbar.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ixcZ6MEXDI
Blade& Soul is probably more traditional, but it's focused a lot on comboing, parrying, blocks and evasion instead of just eh more normal MMO gameplay. Haven't played it that much myself, but that was the impression.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ooaxe2u6BHU
>>336351170
Yeah, the few people I really got to know in GW2 I got to know from WvW, that is true. But WvW is a kind of dying game mode in serious need of attention. The main problem is that unlike PVE or sPVP, you can't make any progress on your character in WvW. Every hour spent in WvW is another hour you're not progressing toward your legendary wepaon or other long term goals, unless your long term goal is to max out every WvW mastery or complete the ridiculous achievements like capture stonemist castle 100,000 times. They have done a slight improvement with the last patch with giving it reward tracks like sPvP, that might help but it might be too little too late, they need another WvW "season" to reignite interest in the mode.
>>336338410
I dunno, FFXIV is pretty fun. Lots of people socializing in my guild, Novice Network chat is booming with discussion from new players and veterans, party finder filled with people looking to do content whether it's old or new, and there's so much things to do to keep me occupied. Already got over 1000 hours invested into the game and I haven't even done Savage content yet, finished the Hildebrand sideplots, or even done the class quests for my battle and crafting classes.
>>336346459
10/10 bait you derailed the thread succesfully
>>336339924
Wow has killed itself more than anything that killed WOW.
You might think legion is gonna fix things but it won't they spent too much time on classes and not enough time on the game itself.
It's trying to be an arena fest with PVE content stacked on.
>>336351637
>GCD so long you can take a nap during it
>tab target autoattack combat at that
>>336351517
Pretty much. WvW players have always been treated as second class citizens by Anet. Play thousands of hours and still be poor after it. That's a WvW player alright.
My casual friend couldn't believe after years that you actually had to spend money to upgrade objectives. How many even knew? All those waypoints were made with player gold every single week. Now that has changed though.
Not sure what can save WvW at this point. Make good enough improvements for players to notice and return. Or.. get new players.
>>336352142
>not fapping and playing at the same time
>>336343696
FFXIV is not a modification on WOW, WOW patches are 90% ON FUCKING CLASS BALANCE 10% on content.
Look at the fucking 1000000 patches besides those in vanilla and BC and you'll see this.
Jesus Christ this entire thread suggesting themepark after themepark is EXACTLY why this genre is dead.
These games are all "you are the hero, so go collect me some boar assholes" rinse and repeat until max level where it opens up slightly
You want to know the games that consistently survive? Games where you're dropped into a living, breathing world/universe and you can do literally whatever you want. Why would you want to play a questing simulator with gameplay limited by the netcode when you hardly take advantage of the netcode anyways? What good is there being a thousand people doing the same thing as you if you have no reason to interact? Sandbox games take advantage of those numbers through player economics/politics/territory control and various other meaningful player interactions.
EVE? Star Wars Galaxies? Ultima Online? All have players, despite being 12-19 years old. We haven't had a proper sandbox since 2003. Maybe that has something to do with the state of the genre.
Gloria Victis
Shards Online
Chronicles of Elyria
Crowfall
The Repopulation
Star Citizen
These are the games you should look into. Ignore *insert themepark* because they have disappointed you every single time. Why would this one be any different?
>>336340931
Dark Souls never became the omfg so tough meme, it was born as a cash in on the meme itself. Even gaymer gurlz knew about Demon's Soul when it came out, newfag. heh
>>336344764
Mabi was the comfiest MMO I've ever played.
>>336352206
Hidden costs always will cost a community. When you promote the game as you don't need to spend a dime and suddenly you have to after a few patches to spend money that's how you kill your own game by promoting or advertising something it's not.
>give up on finding a decent MMO
>play on a private WotLK server
It's not ideal but I'm content and it's free
>>336346249
Vanilla feel, with the buttons and so forth doesn't matter.
There isn't enough end game content to even excite any player and the bosses are boring as shit.
>>336352406
That's why I'm really digging Chronicles of Elyria, you pay for a soul but the "host body" will die after 12 months. So essentially it's buy2play for a year, @ $30 so less than a cup of coffee for a month of good sandbox gameplay
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pb1JcO645BA
>>336352406
Oh it was still in game gold still. Sorry if my words mislead you. The problem was that in WvW by playing your game mode of choice it wasn't possible to even gain enough gold constantly to keep playing seriously. People even asked donations on game chat to upgrade things. Some commanders had guilds behind them to keep the siege costs up.
It was even a tradition that on reset day before reset whole server would go do jumping puzzles to get siege for the server for next week. You would of course get portaled to the end by a mesmer to finish it quick.
>>336338410
The future of MMOs is in games like Destiny or defiance. Destiny was a terrible game because the jews wanted more money than what they could count without putting any content out but the idea behind it is fantastic. A live action game with dungeons where player skill wasn't reliant purely on gear and who can watch cooldowns. It allowed for exciting team gameplay in creative settings. Too bad there was little to no actual team interaction like tanking or healing or support but it was a good first step.
I think if MMOs want to evolve to the next level they need to follow those steps. No more of this cookie cutter trash of enemies you dont want to fight but make an MMO more like a single player game where player interaction is limited to hub world, dungeons, or other group activities. Shoot for open world pvp steal ideas from dark souls and add invasions but with squads. Maybe have some areas open with multiple teams running around and world bosses and the like.
Just no more endless grind of watching a charater hit something im clicking on. It's gotten too old.
>>336352791
Ah I thought you meant store bought gold thanks for clearing it up.
>>336352810
>Too bad there was little to no actual team interaction like tanking or healing or support
Good. I'm not saying I dislike these things (I do), but the playerbase proved that 99% of themselves weren't capable of doing the simplest shit, let alone rely on these roles.
>>336352810
>the future of MMOs are content-driven sandboxes
Go ask how The Division/Destiny players feel right now, knowing that the content they admittedly enjoy took 3+ years to produce
Content-driven themeparks are bad for the community because the community goes through it far faster than it can be developed. Meanwhile, I can log into Ultima Online/EVE and take advantage of the mechanics that provide meaningful player interaction and experiences dynamically any day of the week and have a different experience. Keep in mind that these are the only types of games that are successful outside of Guild Wars 2/World of Warcraft and flavor of the month F2P games that will be abandoned four months from now.
>>336353018
I should mention this purely relative to Destiny.
>>336352298
>We haven't had a proper sandbox since 2003.
Mabinogi came out on 2003, and I'm pretty sure haven and hearth came out somewhere around 2005?
>>336352810
> but make an MMO more like a single player game where player interaction is limited to hub world, dungeons, or other group activities.
no thx
>>336353394
I mean mainstream AAA MMOs. There was also Darkfall and Mortal Online in 2008 which went pants on head retarded for "WE'RE HARDCORE FUCK CASUALS GRIEFERS WELCOME"
H&H2 is great tho, wish it were more popular and more people knew about it. The goons play it a lot.
>>336351637
FFXIV would be great if they just hired more fucking programmers to produce a wider variety of battle content in a shorter space of time.
That's the real problem; there's one 4-floor raid, one instanced boss and two dungeons per quarterly (excuse me, triannual) patch. Battlecraft content is the bedrock that supports everything else; maintaining a stable base of motivated engame players, sustainable growth of new players in leveling grounds, the health of the in-game economy since having more stuff to do means more consumers consuming consumables and armor, etc.
What they have now is great. But if they could increase content output to 1.5x its current level it could legitimately kill WoW.
>>336352298
See the problem with sandbox is that 99% of those "meaningful player interactions" is ganking, and the "sandbox" is kind of an excuse not to provide content to do, so what do you do? You say "anything you want" but that boils down to "grind mobs or kill other players"
I have friends who talk about how fun SWG was for them with rose tinted glasses and I ask what they liked to do and they said "spin lairs" "what's that?" I asked.. the answer boiled down to aoe grinding mobs in a group.
The other thing.. was pvp. and not even like a battle or war simulation like Ettenmoors in LotRO, or WvW in GW2 or Cyrodiil in TESO, or small scale arenas or battlegrounds in other themeparks.. but literally just hunting down low level players in the world and ganking them.
Really a game needs elements of both themepark and sandbox I think. It needs an open persistent world with a player driven economy (TESO's merchant guild and guild store based system is an interesting take on that, no global auction house, yet you still have the convenience of posting your goods on a store instead of having to hawk your shit over chat channels 24/7 until you find buyers), no level system (skill based progression system instead), but it also needs content, personally, I like GW2's events system.
as for open world PVP? Faction vs Faction maybe but if it's every man for himself, it's hard to build trust to play around other people. TERA is probably the most anti social MMO I've ever played because it's not faction vs faction PVP, and there's still closed mob tagging, closed resource gathering. Other players around you in the same instance of the world are never a benefit, at best, they will kill steal from you, at worst, they will try to gank you. So it's better to hop to an empty channel and avoid other players unless you are grouped with them or in a guild with them. A game like GW2 is the opposite. other players are always a benefit.
>>336353660
See, BDO would be great if it weren't for the business model and the fact that they took the majority of sandbox content out to appease the chinks in Korea.
The future is a model where there's meaningful player interaction to be had between the content updates.
>>336353595
I honestly like H&H a lot more because I really digged the visual style despite it being a bit badly done, but yeah, H&H2 is pretty good otherwise.
>>336346907
>How about this one?
Best MMO ever imo. Hands down.
Until EA Games came in.
It was all about your personal skill, not your gear. Farming and grinding were secondary. PvP was punitive and educative, you had to learn to survive against ganks, treachery, thieves. Going red was a hard choice, and going permared used to totally change your playstyle and habits. The game had an community-based economy and even politics (Fun guilds, RPs guilds, PKs guilds, "nationalist" guilds and much more).
Fuck I miss it.
>>336353839
I had hopes for Archeage as well but the business model kind of killed it. Not to mention farming taking real world time. You spend so much time literally farming as in, growing fucking crops and making trade packs to make money.. that you aren't really doing anything fun.
>>336339348
Pretty much this you can't enjoy an mmo anymore you need to have best build best weapon know all the exploits and tricks in the game
this is also why i quit BDO the russians have been playing for years and have a too big advantage
>played on Nost
>didn't even raid just liked the base game and the high pop
>try other private servers
>pops are nowhere near Nost
>most private servers has 2x rates or are stupid donation fun servers
>go to vg general to get some insight
>nothing but back and forth shitposting over which server is the best or most populated
>nothing helpful
Its just not worth it anymore.
>>336354705
If you're willing to play WotLK then Loraedon fits your criteria
>>336354424
git gud
I didn't play any previous versions of BDO, didn't preorder for the early access and somehow I'm still able to compete with the Russians. Heck Daum is making the game easier every single patch
>>336339710
ROSE online?
Is LOTR Online at least decent? I know its F2P
>>336354776
What patch is Loraedon on? If its up to ICC I don't give a shit
>>336355052
3.3.5 I think
>>336339824
god damn that hit me right in the feels
>>336354952
you missed it
its bad now
>>336352765
Problem with this is unless there is some way to preserve progress between bodies most people are gonna quit after a year because fuck having to do everything again a second time.
If it does have a way to preserve progress then it's just a fancy way of saying subscription and nothing changes.
Lineage 2 classic was good, you had to cooperate even with random people on the map, talking with strangers was encouraged and was a nice pastime when grinding mobs.
Right now everything is just quest based, it's a single player games with some group instances when no one ever talks with anyone else.
Right now MMORPG stands for single player games with other people moving around and playing THEIR version of the single player game.
>>336355052
>>336355109
Either way Ulduar just got added, I don't think ICC is even scripted yet
>>336340035
Silkroad Online was like this
>there will never be good, social, fun MMOs like pre-Big Bang Maple Story again
>>336339916
I remember cool looking shit just appearing on the ground, to bait people into buying membership
>>336340035
Dude, you just described.... Planet Earth!
>>336354952
eh.. they really gutted the class/skill system. It used to be in a fellowship you wanted
>1 tank (guardian, warden, or in the past, blue line champion)
>1 hybrid dps who could offtank (champion (when glory stance still existed) or warden or a red line guardian)
>1 main healer (minstrel or runekeeper)
>1 support captain (who could provide offheals, offtank to some minor degree, res, and buff), or a loremaster who supported by providing power, off heals, CC, and debuffs.
>2 pure DPS (or 1 pure dps 1 hybrid dps/debuffer like a burglar)
I mean you had tank, offtank, aoe dps, single target dps, debuffer, buffer, healer, and CC as roles.
Now with the forced specialization that butchered hybrid and support classes like loremaster and burglar, you have tank, healer, dps. That's it.
>>336356110
to spell it out even more.. it used to be groups of Guardian, Champion, Minstrel/Healing RK, Captain/Loremaster, Burglar, Hunter/DPS RK
Now it's Guardian, Healing RK, 4 DPS RK
>>336338410
Because if those games weren't being sold under the label of "MMO" they would be the laughing stock of the industry. Tab-targeting, painfully shitty story and lore, braindead combat, no build customization, micro(that later turned macro)transactions, less and less content with each game.
If they were a single player game, nobody would bother with them.
>>336341054
explain this you cunt, why am I getting abused by indonesians
>>336355729
>Maplestory 2 never
>>336357536
forgot pic
>>336338410
because they catered to casuals who get bored of the game no matter in 3 months no matter what.
So, what happened with ToS? we F2P now?
>>336358291
it's Brazilian to play
>>336338410
I personally think it's mostly because of technological limitations that MMO's are shit now. MMO's just cant keep up with singleplayer games with online co-op or team matchmaking. Also, the community in most games tend to be pretty shit so it's safer to railroad everyone down the same path and make a WoW clone with a single button party finder that pairs you with idiots unwilling to work together.
Even most "action" MMO's play worse than singleplayer games from a decade ago because they just can't deliver the same kind of gameplay. The animations have gotten fancier though,
Tree of Savior was just a bad game that got hype because one guy worked on Ragnarok Online. Game felt really barebones and IMC just keeps fucking over its playerbase.
>>336358291
F2P is delayed until early-mid May.
>>336358291
game is dying incredibly fast in korea so they decide to push the f2p in murrica/eu to a further date to milk people buying founder packs
>>336338410
Wikis killed mmos.
>>336355183
Life ends, but soul retains those experiences so you gain those skills back at a greatly multiplied rate
Even if it is a fancy way of saying a subsciption, it's a $2.50/mo subscription once a year and that's removing the bullshit of a cash shop and the pay2win aspect.
>>336358447
>I personally think it's mostly because of technological limitations that MMO's are shit now.
That sounds nonsensical to me because the best MMOs were in a time when technology was less developed than today.
But that's because they didn't focus as much on graphics so they actually spent time on gameplay. And also because the industry was just starting out so everyone was experimenting with new things instead of using the same stale formula.
>>336358881
I think MMO fans are willing to sacrifice a little bit when it comes to gameplay for thousands of people to be connected simultaneously, what they won't do is accept those limitations when the only benefit is a chat box and optional grouping
Why should I play a game that has inferior mechanics to Dragon Age Inquisition when the only player interaction I see is someone taking the mob I need to complete a quest?
I had this goofy minecraft-inspired dream of an MMO where people basically "started" a world up and through the course of building castles or settlements, the world slowly expands, revealing new masses of enemies to battle and new pools of resources and treasure to acquire, and people can drop in and drop out of the worlds that every player has created, either doing fair trade, making attempts to plunder it for resources, or doing requested quests for the faction. As utterly shitty as it sounds, it was the perfect crossroads between Dark Souls and Minecraft.
Players who were consistently assholes and stealing things would be branded negatively, and all relevant NPCs in the map would immediately seize on them and attack them for attempting to invade, or protecting your pools of resources and treasures. Players who were actively heroic and popped into worlds doing tons of good deeds would be granted bonuses simply by touching down or would get extra items for quest rewards. All the while, the individuals who are in charge of their own worlds have other important tasks to worry about, like managing their food stores to keep their followers fed, or killing swarms of Goblins to make sure their town doesn't get attacked. Opening the floodgates to online might save you a lot of headache and lost resources, but it would also invite in unfortunate elements who could take advantage of your kindness.
I'd even like to see large-scale player invasions being a possibility, with a few to around a dozen potential heroes or enemies tearing through warp gates to attack their group-defined targets.
>>336359565
Sounds a lot like Crowfall. Crowfall might be good too so keep an eye on that.
Whats a game with some sand box elements but isn't in your face about "PLAYER HOUSING. WORLD PVP. TRADING/CRAFTING ONLY."
>>336353075
>eve
haha
yeah
I sure love only being able to engage people on gates because of warp mechanics
Don't even talk about "warp bubbles" either since they can only be used in nullsec, were no one but BIG blob alliances go
Because MMOs are fucking expensive. The huge upfront cost makes devs unwiling to experiment, so they still try to make WoW killers. Unless you have a big name attached to your game, your MMO is going to be f2p in a matter of years.
>>336342841
The only way to avoid that experience is to be on the cutting edge of content release. You have to start as the expac drops, and stick with it through all the content.
Not like it matters, Blizzard doesn't add new instances in the middle of expacs anymore.
WoW happened and killed all creativity in Korea.
DFO was a cool game but extremely jewish
>>336362093
This is why I'm entirely for crowdfunded MMOs, these devs know that they're targeting a niche and they're willing to stay by that niche (unlike ArcheAge/BDO which started out as sandboxes and pandered to the Korean market by dumbing down the sandbox mechanics or outright removing them)
>>336362669
If anyone did this, they need to clearly communicate that they are using their kickstarter as an interest gauge for investors. Otherwise retards who think you can make a large scale game with 2 mil are going to throw a fit again. MMOs are really fucking expensive.
>>336338410
allow mouse and keyboard on console and mmo genre will revitalised.
>>336362093
even with big names MMO's are going F2P in under a year.
>GW2
>had the legacy of GW1 being successful to help it
>lots of pre launch hype
>started as B2P
>millions of copies sold
>now F2P in under 3 years
>SWTOR
>had fucking STAR WARS license
>had bioware, which at the time was a respected RPG developer making it
>F2P in under 1 year
>LotRO
>Had Lord of the fucking Rings as its IP
>F2P in about 3 years
>TESO
>Successful single player franchise
>coming right off the heels of a game that sold 20 million copies
>releasing on PC and 8th gen consoles
>Goes B2P in a year
Now, B2P ends up being a better business model for TESO anyway because of it also being for consoles and console MMO's doing notoriously bad because people don't like paying multiple subscription costs on top of each other, but it was clear that on the PC version alone the population was falling and the game was in trouble.
>Had hype for ToS
>Class system isn't what you hoped it would be and turned into a boring "walk here, kill X, kill boss" rinse and repeat
>Had hype for PSO2
>Never came and I hear it's shit now
>Had hype for Wildstar
>Fucking died on arrival for one reason or another
When will I learn?
The thing I hate most about MMO's is that there's nothing to do besides kill kill and move on. The only town that matters is the beginning area because the devs shove everything you need there making other areas feel empty and pointless outside maybe a cool soundtrack there's no reason to go back to that area. Every other place that isn't the beginning area just feels like another part of the wilderness outside with monsters to kill and 3 quest giving npc's regardless if the place looks like another town or not.
>>336363318
>MMOs are really fucking expensive.
Not as much as you'd think, both maplestory and mabinogi didn't really cost as much as you'd expect.
The only reason why people think these MMOs cost so much is because of comparisons made to WoW's entire network system.
>>336363318
But you can make a MMO on that kind of budget, look at Project Gorgon, it's the lead designer of Asheron's Call and his wife developing an entire MMO on $50,000 and they're doing very well.
>>336363615
> GW2
gw franchiese was never subscription based
and gw 2 is too different from gw 1
> swtor
- Too much singleplayer feeling
- wow cloneish
- had no end game content
> TESO
- Singleplayer with multiplayer option
- no proper classes and triangle of mmo is missing (tank, dd, support/heal)
It's only dead in the west. The west is a bad market for traditional MMOs, because people not only don't want to subscribe to p2p MMOs, they don't even want to play the fucking f2p games, they're more interested in buying gold, buying runs, buying their way through content instead of playing it. Try to disturb this and you end up with a dead game.
The way to fix all the gold buyers and sellers is make registering more difficult like on most korean services. You require a phone number to verify. Which is a huge step down from the social you used to need to verify but it's still better than "make as many accounts as you want mister chinaman, enjoy making hundreds of thousands from idiots buying gold" we have in the west.
Anyway, all the attempts at WoW killers has ruined the community of MMOs as well. Everyone is so used to the WoW format that when something different (like ToS) comes out, it's immediately dismissed.
That's ignoring all the other billions of problems ToS had, though. Every company, worldwide is looking for the new big multiplayer game genre now that the moba craze is slowing. Not dying, but slowing. The new trend is class based shooters in the west (battleborn, paragon is a mix of moba and class based shooter, overwatch, paladins, etc) in the east devs are more focused on movements forward in the top-down ARPG genre, with games like Maplestory 2, ToS, herowarz, and aima, all trying to expand upon and copy the nearly 15 year old Dungeon and fighter (DFO in the west).
Basically the genre is in a transitional period right now. Every company is trying to capitalize on the potential of a new craze by expanding on what markets show interest in. It's all about waiting and seeing right now. In about 3 years we'll see a return to form with some new traditional MMOs on both sides of the argument. Well, in the east they will. In the west we'll continue seeing dozens of MMOs launch as p2p, go b2p, then f2p when no one wants to play it.
>>336360782
So a sandbox that really isn't a sandbox? Sounds like BDO.
>>336363615
Makes you think if the super big IPs can't do it then what can?
Granted GW2 F2P system is more like a limited trial. You need to buy the expac if you want to get anything serious out of it.
>>336364167
>TESO has a more open ended class system like the single player games
>this is somehow a bad thing
I like how TESO did its classes, though I wish there were more different classes. The flexibility of weapon skills and any class wearing any armor is a pro, not a con.
It also does have tank/heals/dps, it's just that any class can perform any role if you build for it and use appropriate weapons and armor.
>>336364431
The problem is the market is saturated and WoW is still the big player in the room.
People don't play WoW because they're interested in warcraft or the game itself, people play WoW because their friends are already playing WoW. That's what built up the population later in Vanilla, during TBC, and Wrath.
Only the first few months of Vanilla were really people who were die hard about the game and IP itself. By 6 months after launch you were getting people who'd never played a single warcraft game before playing just because it had a lot of people playing it, and by TBC, those people were having their friends starting to play the game just so they could play a game with each other. I was in that. I didn't start WoW until Blackwing Lair, and I only started playing it because... my best friend was already playing it, then we convinced another friend to play it, etc. None of us had ever so much as touched a Warcraft game prior.
At this point Final Fantasy XIV is having the same effect to some extent, and if WoW truly dies, it will be XIV that blows up in population simply because "my friends are already playing it" I dread that simply because XIV is fucking awful as a game itself.. but that's the way of things, people will flock to where their friends are already at.
>>336343696
I'd prefer if Microsoft actually made an MMO like this since Blizzard is shit, has been for a while, and Jew Pump just microtransactions out the ass. MS has the money to fund an MMO, unlike Sony, the servers to support it, and a creative team wouldn't be hard for them to ring up. It'd be a great way to bring in PC users to their base as it could be a win# exclusive and since they're new to the market, unless they hire out all the blizzdrones or whatever, their vision is not as corrupted to making another JewMMO
The best MMO died. Nothing has come close since.
>>336365367
dc universe is pretty fucking close, by which I mean way better outside of the nickel and diming for DLC now that it's f2p.
>>336365367
this was the best mmo
