She lost on purpose.
Big Boss is inferior to her in every single way.
>>335983153
Big Boss would probably agree with you. He spent his whole life trying to understand what she did and why she did it.
>>335983153
>implying a woman in the military is superior to a man in the military
To me, The Boss is one of the more annoying characters in the MGS Universe, especially if you listen to those Strangelove tapes.
SHE WAS JESUS!
>>335983153
Boy you sure must be fucking retarded to be just understanding this now.
You need to repeat special school ASAP.
>>335983681
>This is the boss, she is the best
>Why
>Because
>But why
>BECAUSE SHE IS
I did not and do not give a single shit about her.
>>335983153
Hello, this is diane simmons
>>335984342
Strangelove took time off her groundbreaking AI research, so she could track down the Bosses horse that SURVIVED the end of MGS3.
BECAUSE THAT'S THE BEST HORSE EVER.
>tfw no MGSV styled game where The Boss is the MC running around WW2 locations doing cool shit
>>335986419
I want this so bad.
>>335986419
>giving birth while killing nazis
>>335983681
>The Boss is one of the more annoying characters in the MGS Universe
I was bothered by the Boss about halfway through MGS3.
I thought she had a lot of potential, but they overplayed their hand to make her seem tough and capable to where it loss it's effect.
Specifically, where she walks down and makes Volgin put his tail between his legs, Volgin being scared of the boss didn't make sense to me, especially since he straight up beats Naked Snake worse than she does.
As cool as the boss is, she's just human. She's not a towering 6'7 hulk of a man that's got 10 million volts running through him at will, the Boss should have been afraid of Volgin, since in theory she couldn't even try to CQC him without getting free electric shock therapy, and he can straight up shoot lighting from his hands.
So it never made sense, and that part is when they just pushed it too hard and made me lose a lot of interest in the Boss.
>>335983153
THE BOSS'S WILL THE BOSS'S WILL THE BOSS'S WILL THE BOSS'S WILL THE BOSS'S WILL THE BOSS'S WILL THE BOSS'S WILL
NOBODY KNEW THE BOSS'S WILL LIKE I DID
>>335987176
Snake isn't a 6'7 hulk of a man that's got 10 million volts running through him either. Didn't stop him from dealing with Volgin.
Why didn't she just lie on the ground to let him shoot her from the start?
>>335986419
I'd rather it be like PW where you can play as the other Cobras and each of them have a specialty.
Want to just fuck up a mission? Pick The Fury and flame everyone. Want to do traditional stealth? Pick The Joy/The Boss.
>>335983153
The Boss was scum, bringing a gun to a fistfight like that
>She pretended to walk into mines on purpose
Sure buddy.
>>335988260
What, and tell him she had a tummyache?
>>335987936
Yeah, but Snake needed a big dedicated boss battle, and could use a gun.
Don't forget, that also, you defeat Volgin in gameplay, and I think it takes an aspect of like how Snake somehow was able to beat Psycho Mantis, even though he really should have been killed off in pretty short order.
>>335988349
t. High School
>>335988323
If you want stealth you should really be The Sorrow with a sniper. Kill a dude and his spirit can mark anything of note in the area he was in.
>>335988619
I would think the Sorrow would be entirely/mostly non-lethal gameplay though. Since he knows what happens to people after death.
>>335988813
But he only gets any powers when people die.
>>335988556
nigger big boss literally cqc'd volgin and the boss had the patriot
In terms of strength
Raiden>Solid>Liqiud>Venom>The Boss>Naked
>>335989175
What about Solidus?
>>335989175
That shit isn't even fair, Raiden's a Cyborg now.Unless you mean pre-Cyborg in which case yeah nah, fuck off.
Gaseous Snake would have been able to beat Revengeance Raiden with his bare hands if he was ever created.
>>335989175
I could even see Solid taking down cyborg Raiden to be honest. He did defeat Raiden's prototype in a fucking fist fight.
>>335989370
>>335989320
Below Raiden but above Solid
>>335989127
I figure Volgin didn't immediately fry Snake because he actually wanted to know what the hell he was doing in Graznyj Grad. You can't get those secrets if Snake is dead.
But I still don't think this undoes my main point about that they went overboard pushing the Boss as tough and capable with her interaction with Volgin and other characters. It was unnecessary to get it across and ultimately I think less of her because of it.
>>335989417
>He did defeat Raiden's prototype in a fucking fist fight.
Yeah, but Raiden is like an entirely different league than Grey Fox.
Raiden vs Grey Fox is a 10/10 for Raiden, Grey Fox would be like one of those regular humanoid cyborgs that he kills between boss fights.
>>335989602
she pretty much won WWII by herself dude
>>335983153
Well... you're correct in one way. She could have stopped Snake very early in his mission but chose not to. However, in the end Snake had to overcome her in a fair fight. She probably would be unwilling to let an inferior soldier take over; which is why even though she could have won, she mentored Snake even during his mission to kill her, so that he would eventually surpass her.
>>335986419
Sounds awful.
>>335989417
Fox wasn't really trying though.
>>335983681
The Boss being something of a pinnacle of skill and righteousness worked for MGS3, since the entire point was to contrast her example with what the audience knows Big Boss ends up being. There was really no reason to force every aspect of the series to hinge on her explicitly, though. All the stuff about her "will" in MGS4 is awful. PW and MGSV made it even worse.
>>335989417
Grey Fox was too fucked up in MGS, while Cyborg Raiden is easily the most overpowered character in MGS
>>335989946
why didn't you just shoot yourself in the head?
because you want to play videogames you fucking nigger
>>335990119
i fucking cringe everytime i hear those poorly executed dialogues of MGS4 spamming "muh will" 20 times per minute. Way to rape a lore
>>335989721
>she pretty much won WWII by herself dude
I'm pretty sure she and her unit of personalized X-men did some shit, but I mean, FFS, no.
I'm sure she did great things during WW2, but I highly doubt say for one, that she was on both fucking fronts like a Schrodinger's spook, and then again for how many places just on the Western Front do you think her and her unit could be on at the same time?
Even Captain America and his Howling Commandos don't make fucking claims like that, despite probably having more evidence to support it.
>>335990307
He's right, though. I suppose it's ultimately ambiguous, but there's no reason to think she threw the fight.
>>335989175
Cyborg Raiden> Solid>Liquid>Big Boss>Raiden>Solidus=Venom>The Boss
The Boss was great for her time, but was eventually overshadowed by the soldiers that followed because of the times.
>>335990424
you dumb piece of shit, you spend the whole game as naked snake developing your skills to ultimately defeat the boss. You start out as a little bitch but eventually big boss is damn near ready to fuck off and go make MSF by the end
>>335990648
Okay. How does that contradict what I said you raging preteen? She protected him up until their fight, but that doesn't mean she just let him win.
>>335990582
>Venom
>Not better than Big Boss
>>335990756
obviously she protected him, she's practically his fucking mother. she was never working for volgin and wasn't about to let him kill snake. but you still have to prove yourself by defeating her in the end
>>335990757
>>335990582
Aside from his mech-arm possibly providing an advantage, there's no reason to think they aren't basically on par.
>>335990928
That's what I'm saying you dull fuck.
>>335991007
then fuck off and suck my dick you scug backed duck billed whale fart
>>335990937
>Big Boss
>Gets cucked by Huey and Skull Face
>Venom
>Kills Skullface, has a cool dog
>>335990937
>some random nigger
>better than the original
Whatever kid
MGR predicted trumps presidential campaign tbqh
>tfw no more Big Boss games
Where am I supposed to cqc niggas, smoke cigars and wear nice camo patterns?
>>335983153
>snake you have to kill me or else america will die
>but i will also try to stop you from doing it
fucking hell, if they wanted the legacy so badly, why didnt they just kill Volgin?
there aren't many people that actually want him alive, and few witnesses too
>>335983153
>lost on purpose
>superior
If she was capable of doing more and chose not to, then that's kind of the thing that makes Big Boss superior. Big Boss moved to do more than he was capable of, and never gave up just because he felt someone else could do the job. Instead, he made sure he was around to do the job himself.
>>335990937
Venom's arm helps him out, but I think Big Boss overall proves more capable, and he doesn't have an easily exploitable injury. I mean, all it'd really take to fuck up Venom hardcore is to start fucking with his horn and scramble his brains.
Like seriously, a solid punch right against the horn could straight up kill Venom no problem.
>>335990937
jesus christ it pains me that kojima's mary sue actually appeals to faggots like you. Raiden is a cunty bitch and anyone who likes him is garbage and should die.
>>335991208
Big Boss is a loser
>>335991205
What's that have to do with skill level?
>>335991208
Medic wasn't just some scrub. Disregarding the obvious meta Implications of the line, Big Boss still described him as "our best man" and, through contrived bullshit, was given all of Big Boss's memories and skills.
Why does the game do nothing with the fact that Ocelot is her son?
>>335991246
MGSV
>>335991403
meant to reply to
>>335990582
>>335991441
it does more with the fact that the sorrow is his dad
>>335991403
My post was about Venom and Big Boss, not Raiden. Not that I like Venom anyway; he's a dull and pointless character.
>>335991391
The injury is a good point. I don't see how Big Boss really proves more capable, though.
>>335990937
How did each one lose to Solid Snake?
>>335991419
>80 year old Venom
> goes 1v1 with 20 year old Solid Snake,
>Big Boss gets burned alive by Solid
>>335991403
It's not based on how much I like those characters or not, otherwise The Boss and Solidus would be higher up.
I just put a who beats who list. No matter how you feel about Cyborg Raiden, but Cyborg Raiden could wreck the other 7 characters on the list at the same time.
>>335991582
Nanomachines. Also Kojima is a hack.
>>335983153
Was i the only one who didn't really care about her? Her speech at the end felt like complete nonsense and she droned on about it. The only thing that saves it is the Mentor/Pupil stuff and the reveal of her actual mission.
I cared more about EVA then her, too bad BB was a giga autist
>>335991582
I was talking about Venom and Big Boss.
>>335991635
no fck you snake always wins
>>335991639
>>335991683
No I meant what methods did each of them lose to Solid Snake? That alone will show which is superior.
>>335991647
Why are all the snakes autisitc when it comes to women
>>335991629
Okay. And?
MGS3 is the reason I dont consider anything beyond 2 canon
>>335991747
Venom got wrecked in a straight up duel, Big Boss was caught off guard and burned alive with a makeshift flamethrower because of his own hubris. Neither case really implicates one of them as being a superior combatant.
>>335991747
Well nobody played MG1 or 2 so I can only assume snake shot a bunch of pixels and venom and died. Granted he was actually big boss at the time the game was made but Kojima is a hack so he retconned it. I don't know if snake ever defeated big boss, he just dies at the end of 4, unless I'm forgetting something.
>>335991757
They're facing the same person, and Venom clearly performs better than Big Cuck, and since they never face each other, its our closest assumption to who is stronger
>>335991582
Solid Snake isn't just a clone of Big Boss, he's genetically modified as well.
On top of that, Venom and Big Boss were old as shit when they fought a fresh, young Solid Snake. With how many fights Big Boss and Venom had, they'd have all sorts of lingering injuries that'd hold them back from their peaks, as well as being well into their 50s and 60s, so they weren't the young bucks anymore.
That's not even getting into nano machines and super genes shit.
>>335991879
Venom Snake lost to Solid Snake while Venom Snake had an assault rifle, and Solid Snake had body armor and an arsenal of weapons including an RPG. Big Boss lost to Solid Snake while Big Boss had an assault rifle, and Solid Snake was naked except for a can of hair spray and a lighter.
>>335991879
>>335991893
Snake shot Venom in the face with several rockets in a difficult battle(barring exploits)
Big Boss got burned with a lighter while joy-walking in what was basically a cut scene because of how easy it was.
>>335991582
>>335991931
The major theme of the game is that Solid Snake wasn't concerned about his genes as a means of determining his power/destiny.
So that anime as fuck bullshit gives him power beyond reckoning.
>>335992049
kek
Well like I said nobody played MG1 or 2, they might as well not exist.
>>335991879
>"Lol what does my son think he can find in that room? The moment he comes out I'm going to blast him the fuck o- ARRRGGHHH"
Big Boss is fucking stupid.
>>335992119
Solid Snake was pretty much like "gotta git gud to git gud" while Liquid cried about his genes
nothing really anime about it, plus Liquid actually was stronger than Solid, it took FOXDIE to kill him for good
>>335991754
Solid Snake is not autistic though?
He spends the entirety of MGS1 flirting with every female, in MGS2 he was busy with important shit and the only woman around had gross armpits and by MGS4 he is too old for this sit.
100% not autistic.
NANOMACHINES INSIDE THEIR BODIES ENHANCE AND REGULATE THEIR ABILITIES
INFORMATION CONTROL
>>335992119
Is Kojima the George Lucas of vidya?
>>335992049
>>335992030
Proof that Venom>Big Boss
>>335992212
A talentless hack? Yes, for certain.
Real talk though, could a single man with a stinger defeat someone in a hind-d?
>>335991914
>Venom clearly performs better
In a way. I wouldn't say Big Boss being doomed by his own arrogance necessarily makes him lesser skilled, though.
>>335992030
See the above.
I don't think it's really all that conclusive. Given how MGSV goes out of its way to establish that Big Boss and Venom have the same memories and skills.
>>335992132
MG2 is pretty rad, though. It's in my top 3 MG games.
>>335992312
A single stinger is enough to down a helicopter,. but if it has countermeasure then he is 100% fucked.
Him taking out a M1 tank with just grenades is actually a lot more impressive.
>>335992316
Didn't MGSV establish that Venom Snake was doing all the badass shit, cementing BBs legend while the real BB was just jerking off at Outer Heaven?
If anything, Venom was practicing for 10 years for his fight with Snake while BB was doing fuck all.
>>335992410
I'm pretty sure Venom founded Outer Heaven, while Big Boss founded Foxhound and Zanzibar Land
>>335992410
>he thinks MGSV is canon
>>335992410
Not that it makes much difference. It's not like Big Boss's feats in MGS3 and PW aren't wildly impressive. They were both active at the same time.
>>335992532
Outer Heaven was a joint venture. Big Boss was still the leader of everything; Venom is just the one Snake actually kills in MG1.
MGSV mentions that it was Big Boss that incited the Outer Heaven Uprising.
>>335992312
>Real talk though, could a single man with a stinger defeat someone in a hind-d?
Yes, it's entirely possible. Battery in, wait for tone, fire, drop the launcher and leave.
Here's the thing. If the stinger hits, that's it.
But if the Hind manages to dodge, and/ or uses countermeasures or if it just misses for one reason or another, the person is completely 100% fucked beyond hope.
Also keep in mind, that a stinger has a max range of 8 km, but the Hind could have some weapons that can strike a target from further than that depending on year and configuration.
A person could do it with a stinger, but you've got all your eggs in one basket, and if anything goes amiss, the Hind wins.
>>335983153
Big Boss is the worst protagonist in the entire series.Even Venom is better than him.
>>335992537
The story certainly makes more sense without it.
>>335992387
>Him taking out a M1 tank with just grenades is actually a lot more impressive.
Only because they open up the top like retards and they're fighting in such a small area that it really removes a lot of the advantage a tank would have.
Not to take anything away from Snake, but there wasn't much he was going to be able to do if they all just decided to just sit in the tank and wait out the chaff every time. Opening the tank allows them to win.
>>335992945
Naked Snake was pretty boring in MGS3, but Venom wasn't much more than a player avatar. I fail to see how he's more compelling.
>>335983153
You don't understand at all. She was prepared to kill him. Their final confrontation is the first time Big Boss actually tried to fight her. In every other instance he refused to fight her. She got killed.
>>335992945
>Big Boss is the worst protagonist in the entire series.
Nah, I say that goes to Raiden in MGS2, but then again, that's kinda the point.
>>335992991
Yes, i can indeed confirm that MGS is a video game.
In real life terms you just have to imagine that he fooled them or forced them to open up the hatch. Also people die of stupidity and hubris every day.
How does Big Boss get by being the leader of several organizations?
I just never understood the relationship between MSF, DD, and Fox.
Hell I barely understand how foxhound is different from Fox.
>>335992164
>Jesus fucking Christ! Get this fucking mustard off of me!
>>335986419
klll me
>>335993156
Well, you could have had it where he blows out both tracks, and then kills the tank once immobilized with c4.
I'm not sure it would have been as compelling though.
>>335993130
The only problem with Raiden is that he fucking stole the fucking game from Snake. Other then that he is ok until he tries too hard and becomes a Gray Fox clone.
I still can't believe it that fucking hack fucked over Snake and the fans like that. The codecs between him and Otacon on the tanker are the absolute best in the whole series, we could have had a whole game of that instead of muh April 30th
>>335993243Big Boss never led Diamond Dogs.
>>335993243
FOX was a CIA special ops team. FOXHOUND was the army's special ops team inspired by Naked Snake's experience and success. That's the whole point of the army chief's "We could use someone like you in the army, to command our top-secret sneaking missions."
MSF was Big Boss's private military that gets destroyed. DD was Miller's private military that Venom Snake helps create. They're presumably cannibalized into Big Boss's Outer Heaven.
>>335993538
*Venom Snake helps expand
>>335993382
I think MGS2 was better for it. Snake's character had a complete arc in MGS1, and relegating himto a more supportive role wasn't a bad decision. I liked Raiden anyway.
>>335993382
That was sort of the point though. The game was about information control and manipulation, not just with the Patriots controlling memes in the game, but also about what they told fans and what actually happens in game.
Your betrayal by the dev team and Kojima with Raiden as a player mirrors the betrayal Raiden suffers at the hands of the Patriots and what he's been told to believe.
>>335992971
>>335993667
Can this fucking meme just die?
Not every thing in MGS2 has to be 2deep4u, you know?
>>335985926
This. I can't listen to anything The Boss says without expecting her to say "Back to you, Tom." after.
>>335993893
but it does, that's the whole point of the game
except for A DUHD and the president grabbing raiden's balls
>>335993893
Not everything in MGS2 is 2deep4u, but that particular aspect of it happens to be.
I'm just saying, I think the Raiden bait and switch was risky, but ultimately I thought worked out really well.
Actually, maybe I just wasn't as bothered by the switch as everyone else was, I remember really enjoying MGS2 at the end of it all on my first playthrough, despite not quite getting the ending. Maybe because it was my first PS2 game and it all was happening during winter break after Christmas, but I do remember really thinking the sequel being almost on par with MGS1 and finding that really impressive.
Frankly, out of the MGS games, I think MGS3 gets way too much credit and is overrated.
>>335993667
Annoying people with silly decisions still is annoying, and not positive at all for the game itself (except for Kojima, that probably laughed all night long after the release).
>>335993893
That is more about Kojima's gimmicks getting out of control than "2deep4u" shit. Kinda like a longer and more stupid version of Psycho Mantis' tricks.
>>335993893
It's not 2deep4u, it's completely intentional on Kojima's part. Read the game plan.
https://www.scribd.com/doc/79761783/Metal-Gear-Solid-2-Grand-Game-Plan
>>335990648
Snake and The Boss invented CQC together. He is never willing to give her a serious fight. He LETS her win everytime they fight, even though he is capable of beating her. Snake didn't want to fight her at all, but once it became his mission, he mopped the floor with her ass.
>>335994225
>Annoying people with silly decisions still is annoying, and not positive at all for the game itself
The decision was divisive, I know that, but that's a divide. I think MGS2 could easily have been a worse game and far less memorable if they didn't do exactly what they did and just decided to just do a MGS1 clone with better graphics.
The things I take issue with in MGS2 was just the general shift of tone and atmosphere to something to me seemed lighter. It lost a fair deal of the grittiness and darkness present in MGS1, by switching the environment from a cold, dark metallic palate, to a warm, sunny orange one, and from switching the music from a heavy synth based atmospheric soundtrack that sometimes bordering on something you'd find in survival horror, to a sound track with a lighter music with saxophones and jazzy undertones.
I think that overall shift in atmosphere and tone not only was sort of a bad direction, but also sort of betrayed the underlying themes of MGS2 itself, which was about betrayal, manipulation and other darker themes that the music and atmosphere just doesn't seem to reflect at all until Arsenal Gear itself.
>>335994839
It was different, but not inferior.
>>335983153
Except that Big Boss isnt a dumb bitch that will die for a bunch of corrupt fucks in suits. That's why Big Boss decided to stop following them and create his own shit. Thats also why he found his own bitch boy, Venom, that IS like The Boss. Someone who will follow orders like a dog.
But I've only played 1 2 3 and 5
>>335995065
I think it starts to get into preference, we start getting into sort of subjective appraisals of it. And to be fair, it wasn't like it was something that ruined the game or anything, I still really liked MGS2.
I just wish it had that darker colder color palate and bleaker synth based music from MGS1 instead of what we got.
But that's just my take on it, it's just a preference.
>>335994839
The underlying themes would have been more apparent if the original aesthetics were kept. I agree that the atmosphere is unusually comfy for the first half of the Big Shell, but after the Harrier fight you see the other half the Big Shell torn up and that's really when the illusion begins to crack since you meet the president there and the plot begins to pick up. Arsenal Gear's tonal shift reflected the complete uncovering of the nature of the game and so this creates a stark contrast to what was presented to you before. It plays into the betrayal and manipulation in my view rather than betray it.
>>335994839
>MGS1 with better graphics
Honestly, I did take that over MGS2, or at least something that tries to be new like MGS3.
Being "memorable" mainly because it "betrayed" the audience's expectations isn't exactly a good thing in my opinion (but I agree that it works). I prefer to "remember" games based on memorable moments, like puzzles, storylines, boss fights, soundtrack, etc.
And yeah, the atmosphere also affected my opinion about the game. Like you said, it is all about preferences. And a bit about expectations too.
>>335995650
I can agree with that, and I think that might have helped the game out and MGS2 wouldn't have gotten the backlash it received because the tone would have more people be OK with those moves and bait and switch.
As well as the fact that at the end of it all, you actually helped out the real bad guys and helped them gain control over the world. You assisted them in making sure their plans went accordingly, and I think by coloring the tone of the game as a darker, colder one, it could leave players more disturbed by the implications, and less trying to spend brain power about the actual twist and tonal shift.
And I agree, Arsenal Gear is when the curtain gets pulled back and we see the things going on, but those betrayals and manipulations start from the very beginning, so it seems like it should effect the tone in the rest of the game as well.
But I can see your point of view and why that tonal betrayal might also play into it instead of against it.
>>335992164
>"haha snake stahp that tickles"
>>335996260
>As well as the fact that at the end of it all, you actually helped out the real bad guys and helped them gain control over the world.
It's not like Solidus and Dead Cell weren't also assholes or that Raiden had much choice.
>>335995986
MGS2 has a lot of great and memorable stuff on its own terms anyway, though.
>this entire thread
Man, Kojimbo is such a hack yet you people spend your time arguing about his pseudo-intellectual garbage.
Reminder that MGR is the only good Metal Gear game.
>>335983153
if this is true how come she killed me so many times?
>>335984342
>This is the boss, she is the best
>Why?
>Because she was trained by the Philosophers since birth, had more missions under her belt that any other soldier at the time, and unlike those who became The Patriots, had a vision for world peace that didn't involve ruling the world
>>335995986
>I prefer to "remember" games based on memorable moments, like puzzles, storylines, boss fights, soundtrack, etc.
And maybe that's why I'm A-OK with how MGS2 plays out, because there's a lot of that for me.
I mean, there's a lot of moments from MGS2 that just had me absolutely at the edge of my seat, and although not as good as FOXHOUND, Dead Cell was interesting enough.
There wasn't a lot of the 4th wall breaking puzzles like in MGS1, no 'back of the CD case' or "Use the Controller Port to beat Psycho Mantis" kind of moments, which was a bit of a let down. 4th wall moments, sure (Infinite ammo), but no 4th wall puzzles.
And although I didn't care for most of the soundtrack, I did think the Boss Fight music worked well enough, and Arsenal Gear worked really well to give that really strange and uncertain vibe that was reflecting what was happening onscreen.
Honestly, the scene when Fortune meets Snake and Raiden right before he goes to fight the Rays still gives me chills and gets me pumped.
And some of that might be because it's now adopting those colder MGS1 colors and has a synth tech-noir music going with it now.
I don't know, this cut scene just hit me super hard the first time I played it and it still gets my adrenaline running.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euSDMDu7XfQ
>>335996739
Terrible taste, son.
>>335996260
>you actually helped out the real bad guys and helped them gain control over the world
They already had control over the world. It was just an experiment to further test the S3 plan. The Patriot AI's had long been controlling context through the media, but they wanted to test whether a particular human agent like Raiden can perfectly coerced into their endgame. The experiment proved a success, but unfortunately, MGS4 undermined this by giving the AI's the middle finger and apparently they're not as all-powerful as they're presented in MGS2.
>>335988260
Because she needed to sell the ruse
>>335983153
THAT'S THE POINT
>>335997157
Going by MGS2 alone, it's questionable if they were even AIs, since the virus goes through GW and Arsenal Gear crashes in New York, but they contact you with even further clarity than before. It's possible the AI thing was just a cover, because they start talking about how the Patriots instead were this sort of cloud conciousness that formed naturally under the White House, spontaneously forming like life in the ocean, which is actually a really cool concept and kinda strengthens the connection and parallels between genes and memes.
But yeah, MGS4 comes around and sort of makes a mess out of things very quickly. MGS4 by itself is good enough, but it's biggest flaw is just the complete anarchy it causes the rest of the franchise and canon in the series.
And honestly, I don't think anyone of us could have come up with a good and satisfying answer to "Who are the Patriots", but making the MGS3 radio team the main conspiracy overlords just sort of ruined characters we liked and were charming and left a bad taste in peoples mouths.
Does making a game revolve around a singular theme make it "deep" ?
Cause I never understand the 2deep4u meme that sometimes gets thrown around in mgs threads.
I had a great time. With Metal Gear Solid 5 that is. A really, really great time. I doubt it was Kojima's intention (though based on his track record, it probably was), but that game is one of the most bittersweet memories I have on every level of its being.
>>335997605
I think frankly the 2deep4u thing is just overdone, because it's lobbed against virtually any movie that decides to do something beyond surface level popcorn film shit.
I mean, maybe it's too much time on /tv/ and /v/ but you've got people going 2deep4u with shit like Terminator 1 with time shit and Aliens for the motherhood themes which is like, c'mon, really?
>>335997594
probably the biggest sin of the franchise is that they skipped over the Patriot's fall to darkness. Portable Ops should have been about Big Boss doing jobs for the Patriots, finding out more and more fucked up things they've been doing (Blackmail, fraud, and kidnapping or whatever so SIGINT becomes head of DARPA. Paramedic going full Mengele, Zero becoming increasingly paranoid and distrustful but blind to how shitty he was treating BB,) covered BB meeting Miller, and overall doing similar to what MGR did with every boss faced picking holes in the rhetoric BB was using to justify siding with the patriots, culminating in a Patriot turncoat spilling the beans on the Les Enfantes Terribles and BB deciding 'fuck this' and walking,
>>335997594
There were many AIs, and once Emma's program destroyed GW, that branch of the system was cut off to prevent the rest from being infected. The AI in the ending is referred to as JFK in the MGS2 script, and JD in MGS4 and is the master AI. What you said can be valid interpretation though. The cloud consciousness which began with the country itself manifested itself into the AI and it became a vessel for memes, the meme being that cloud consciousness that was formed by a human collective culture.
MGS3 and MGS4 defined a specific identity for the meme that the AI perpetuated, which was Zero's will, as he saw that humans must be controlled in order to "make the world whole again." However, MGS4 and MGSV did make a good point by showing that memes can be corrupted with the times and with the influence of others (Skullface).
>>335998205
One thing I really like about the PP reveal was that it showed how fucked up the BB v Zero proxy war had gotten, that the seeds had already been sewn for it becoming self perpetuating, ultimately leading to SOP where every soldier became a proxy for both sides when the AI's perverted BB's will and used it as a tool to accomplish their perverted version of Zero's will
>>335998205
You know, I'll just throw something out there and see what you guys think of it since we're just talking.
One of the biggest things I think happened in MGS2 that sucked and unfortunately, carried on to other games and shitted up there two, was the whole Liquid arm thing, where Liquid would take over Ocelot's body and his voice would speak through him and shit.
I seemed really out of place and didn't add much in MGS2 and honestly was shitty even when they tried to explain it away in MGS4.
I know we can't go back in time or anything, but I wonder why Kojima did this, instead of what to me seemed like a far more logical and sensible choice with a much smaller alteration or retcon.
Why wasn't it just Psycho Mantis? You could have had Psycho Mantis inhabiting inside Ocelot, and it makes way more sense than Liquid since one's got actual mind powers to say, do a mind transfer or something.
Hell, if you wanted to bring old FOXHOUND guys back, Psycho Mantis could have been the easiest one to have constantly returning since he could just keep pulling a Professor X when you 'kill' him.
>>335998049
Yeah, for some reason they seem really reluctant to show how any of the characters go from heroes to villians. Even when they dedicate entire games to 'show the missing link' they always seem to get gunshy when it's actually time for it and you never actually see Big Boss, Zero or anyone else actually cross over that moral event horizon. You never have a moment where they just pick the dark path and never look back, they never just go ahead and make them a villain.
>>335998576
I did enjoy how many things in MGSV tied in many things like that very well to the rest of the series when examined. It's what prevents me from hating the game at all for being unfinished because there were a lot of aspects that redeem it for me.
>>335997605
It's not only the author of a work that gives depth to it. The audience can decide to read into little details and elevate the work. Of course, you'll inevitably get people who read too much into nothing, but there are also legitimate reasons why a game can have depth. Many people dismiss actual depth as "2deep4u" just because many works truly are pretentious and lacking in substance. However, to say that all works are pretentious if they try to do something different is a lazy generalization.
>>335998791
yeah, the closest they have is the last scene of Peace Walker where BB says he'll fight the whole world to ensure war still exists and soldiers still have a place, but then he fucks off to Zanzibar Land to start erecting the infrastructure of Outer Heaven.
Although one thing that got pointed out which gave me a chuckle, in PP there's an unused cutscene that was gonna be part of an online even where Venom has successfully disarmed every Nuke in the world. Which leads to the situation in MGS1 and 2 where everyone is shitting their pants because shortly after the world has achieved nuclear disarmament, out comes Outer Heaven with its nuke launching robot now that mutually assured destruction is no longer a thing
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/7d7EjEl.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
>>335999140
>MGS1 and 2
*Metal Gear 1 and 2, fuck
![mgsv-pp-approach2_3[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/a2rwl3R.jpg "mgsv-pp-approach2_3[1].jpg")
>>335999219
>>335998791
MGS4 trying to explain it as Ocelot merely pretending was a complete retcon, and I don't see any good plot reason for Liquid being "revived" in MGS2 through his arm. It's one of the stupid things that the series did because Kojima probably thought it was cool at the time, and the retcon only makes gives more evidence to the fact that he made a mistake.
>>335999140
Yeah, disarmament and peace day are never going to happen, especially with how fucked the online is and is becoming in TPP and MGO3.
I think every nuke being gone was a plot point in MG2:SS, but not in MG1, but who cares because virtually no one played those games.
>>335999316
>spent ages stealing fuel to make a nuke because I wanted to jump straight to full demon and see how different outfits looked with the giant horn and perpetual blood, particularly the bandanna
>my nuke got stolen less than an hour after it was finished, and he ghosted it so I had no way to get it back
>>335999293
Exactly, I mean, there's vampires and New World Order government Illumanti's run by AIs or a weird naturally occuring collective conciousness, but the weirdest and dumbest thing out of the lot is fucking Ocelot being taken over by Liquid's ghost because he took his arm.
Maybe it's giving Kojima too much credit, but is it possibly a reference to Body Parts, a 1991 movie where a man loses his arm and it's replaced by a executed serial killer's arm and it slowly takes over his mind and makes him commit evil?
>>335999719
considering Kojima, I don't think anything being a reference to a cheesy B-grade movie is giving him too much credit
threadly reminder that the woman who did the english translation for MGS2's script loathed the thing and did as many 'improvements' as she could to make it 'tolerable' by turning the cheese and noir up to eleven
>>335999475
The way they did nukes was so fucking god awful.
I mean, beyond just how people bombard you and often you lose them to hackers and shit (at least on PC, people are invisible, have infinite health and use the raiden suit to just sprint to the nukes and then to the core in 2 minutes, before you can even get to defend.)
But I mean, beyond costing a fair share of materials, it adds a shit ton of demon points, removes heroism, casting quite a judgement there, but then it also paints a giant target on your back, and locks you completely out of FOBs unless you strictly stick to event FOBs.
So, you end up burning a bunch of materials, that are likely to be stolen super quick, while also locking you out of FOBs because if you go to a FOB, your nukes will be gone before you finish. Nukes would literally be an improvement if they were just worthless, but they're worse than worthless, they are actively harmful to you and your PFs.
>>335999984
It sounds like the woman might have been retarded then. Why do that?
>>336000095
http://www.eatchain.com/garbage/METALGEAR%3F%3F%3F/Metal%20Gear%20Solid%202%20Agness%20Kaku%20Intereview/Page%201/Hardcore%20Gaming%20101%20%20Agness%20Kaku%20Interview.htm
>>336000332
I don't see where it says any of the things you claimed.
>>336000332
Interesting read. Thanks.
>>336000714
It sounded more like that's what she wanted to do, like that's what she felt like, that the script should have just been more fun and jokey and not taken itself so seriously (Maybe she got her wish with Revengence), but it doesn't sound like she acted on those desires.
>>335988619
>Sniper
>Not The End
>>336000095
>>336000332
Yeah, after reading that, she seems a lot more reasonable, and it was more about her personal preference and shit, but it didn't sound at all like she actually changed things to sound the way she thought they should sound.
She was thinking it, but she didn't do it.
>>336000332
It's funny to see someone in the industry who actually understands that video game writing is absolute bottom of the barrel trash.
Kojima sucks ass at writing, and yet people keep putting him in charge of teams. That part about how he loves writing about American military forces he knows absolutely nothing about is beautiful.
I would have much preferred to read her version, instead of the stifled, awkward 1:1 trash we got.
>>336002092
>That part about how he loves writing about American military forces he knows absolutely nothing about is beautiful.
It doesn't help that the military guy they keep hiring probably knows next to jack just as a SDF guy.
I mean, I know most creators don't listen to their advisors because they think they know better or they want to do something for 'art', but I mean, especially doing a American military story, I'd really would want a straight up American military advisor because they've probably actually seen something resembling combat in the last 40 years and did military shit outside of their home country.
>>335994145
And now here's ollie williams with the blackuweather forcast.
>IT'S RAINING SHIT MISSLES.
