is it more important to win, or to derive some sort of enjoyment?
It's more important to enjoy what you're doing, it just happens to be that a lot of people enjoy winning.
>>335961515
Do you think people enjoy winning, or could it be that people enjoy not losing?
>>335961640
Depends on the situation, in a match of equal skill even a loss can be enjoyed, but being given a win will make it feel hollow
dats not a karaxsa setup at all!
Losing a good match is enjoyable. It's the thrill, that You might actually win, is what makes it great.
>>335961284
A good fight is more important to me. Blocking and pushing shoryu spam gives you the W but it feels like shit. Doesn't feel like you were even playing a human being.
Winning a close game > losing a close game > Losing a stomp (good chance to learn if the guy is that much better) > Winning a stomp (learn nothing unstatisfying win).
>>335961968
I don't think it's very circumstantial at all. If given the opportunity, people will opt to value not losing, over winning.
Anything is better than losing to someone who hates losing, even a tie. That said, it would be appropriate to defend fun in the name of fun, than the competition, and work heuristically from there.
>>335961515
>>335961968
Nothing more needs to be said.
Enjoyment, definitely.
I've beaten people who are shit, and felt nothing from it. I've also cheesed wins online using scrub tactics and felt like shit.
What I want is to utilise my character to the best of their abilities and match up against someone doing the same.
The best fights are when you're at an equal skill with your opponent. It just so happens that the higher your skill levels are, the more intense the fight is going to be, so naturally everyone's aiming for that point.
>>335962591
>The best fights are when you're at an equal skill with your opponent. It just so happens that the higher your skill levels are, the more intense the fight is going to be, so naturally everyone's aiming for that point.
I disagree. Some of the most fun I've had were against people who were well out of my league. I'll never forget learning how to play marvel with people who were light years better than me. Those matches ended in seconds, but that was because the difference in skill was so great. I'd win like 2 to their 10.
>>335961284
But I enjoy winning.
>>335961284
if you don't win, you lose
there is no joy to be had in losing
Victory is the ultimate testament of validation to whatever it is that you are doing. There's mindless fun in casual competition, but the keyword is still "mindless".
>>335962820
Fair enough.
But does anyone here enjoy losing?
>>335962747
I find that frustrating more often than I find it fun. I get it in theory, but in practice I find myself just getting irritated that I might as well not be trying at all and get the same results.
>>335962283
People will enjoy different things for different reasons, but I doubt that there are many people in the world that want to win simply for the sake of winning, rather they will find something they enjoy doing first, and engage in competition second.
>>335962920
I also sometimes enjoy losing. I'm a moody person.
>>335962941
Part of the fun is participation. It's like when you play an RPG and you reap more exp from killing stronger monsters. It's literally the same thing.
>>335962920
Losing a close game can be way more satisfying than winning a game in a streamroll 99% of the time.
Losing to a scrub because their retardation tilts you is the worst though.
>>335961284
I play games to test my focus
I play games to test my strength
I play games for truth
I play games for power
I play games for honor
Only a fool plays games for enjoyment
>>335962291
what the fuck kind of setup it this.
>>335962920
I've only played one game in which there was still fun in defeat, and that was TitanfallBless its troubled soul
Knowing you got your ass kicked, but still had one final objective to try and accomplish, that in hauling ass to evac was a unique experience I actually enjoyed. Would love to see something similar in other games.
im gay
Fun.
That's why I quit playing Marvel in he arcades. I'd be dicking around with Serverbot/Roll/Dan, and some dude would sill challenge me using Sentinel/Mags/Storm. I've never understood the win by all costs mentality. It's like those who use F1 cars to beat Civics in Gran Turismo.
This is also why I rarely use my actual mains in Soul Calibur when playing with my circle of friends. I'm by far the best in the group anyway, so why bother using my best character?
Enjoying.
I'm not going to play Melty Blood for more than like 2 matches even if I can play corner pressure games with the best of them.
>>335963148
A fucking nightmare
>>335963176
haaaaaaaaaaaaaa fucking fag
>>335962920
It's not so much as I enjoy losing, but I don't care if I lose. That said, I can only hope the other person enjoys beating the shit out of me because I'm socially inept and don't know when to quit and I'll keep going until they stop.
>>335961284
>is it more important to win, or to derive some sort of enjoyment?
neither, but to humiliate your opponent
>>335963158
If you play Marvel and you get blown out in 13 seconds, you can understand why losing is fun. Infinites in marvel take at least 40 seconds of game time. Learning that much, that fast, is all about participation and having fun for me.
Winning a close game > Losing a close game > Winning a steamroll > Losing a steamroll > Winning a close match because your opponent messed up something that even the most basic players don't mess up. > Losing a match because you messed up something that even the most basic players don't mess up.
For smash specifically, it feels the worst for me when it's a close game and me or my opponent SDs.
>>335963314
That's something else entirely.
Having a deep love of the game, you can appreciate getting your ass kicked.
I'm not sure if I would define that as 'fun' but you can certainly enjoy the learning experience.
>>335963191
Because you either git gud or get the fuck off the machine. Don't waste my time with that garbage team.
Also why are you playing FG's with normies anyways? Sounds like you are just bad and look for excuses for losing.
>Im playing low tier lel
>Well my friends arent too gud so why bother?
>>335963393
For me it's:
Winning after being steamrolled>Steamrolling and still losing>Losing a close match>Winning a close match>Tie>Losing>Winning
Nothing is more boring to me than winning because I've been taught better or I know how to play. That was always my problem I think, but I think it's much more reasonable to play the game instead of playing a victory.
>>335962220
>Losing a stomp (good chance to learn if the guy is that much better) > Winning a stomp (learn nothing unstatisfying win).
This really depends. If you just get fucking wrecked, chances are you won't learn anything since you just won't get a chance to. You just your ass beat and can't learn because you just feel like you did everything wrong and need to start over when that's hardly ever true. Being on the winning end of the stomp is usually better so you can just get it over quick and move on to another match where you might actually learn something. Where as losing the stomp you just seldom learn anything and lose self esteem and desire to continue over it. It becomes a quantity over quality scenario. It's best to play people who are a bit better than you. You learn and advance more rapidly. Getting your ass beat present no real ability to learn.
>>335961284
Depends on the stakes. Let me tell you a story...
>playing the vidya with a bro
>bro is gay
>bro bets that if he beats me in Melee that he gets a blowjob
>if i win i get 100 bucks
>i get to pick character, level, options, etc
>i'm a top tier melee player, no problem
>i lose
>i go double or nothing with my bro, if he wins the next one he gets a blowjob and fucks my butt
>if i win i wipe away the debt
>kicks my ass again
>i'm kind of in shock as he forces me to my knees
>he tilts my face up to his and kisses me before shoving it down my throat
>it's so good, the taste of it and the heat coming off the shaft and the way it fills my mouth
>he facefucks me for 5-10 minutes, then lifts me onto the couch and puts me face down
>starts to push his cock in my ass
>it curves up, presses against my prostate as he enters further and further
>i'm mumbling and drooling as he holds my hips down
>leaking precum
>strokes my hair as i get used to having his cock in my ass, i start to notice little details like his balls against my ass and his breathing
>we make out a little, he grabs my hips again
>slowly pumps in and out as we kiss
>starts fucking harder and harder until i'm yelping each time he slams it in to the hilt
>he's thrusting into me, i'm arching and pushing into him, we're operating in unison
>each thrust sends warm waves rolling throughout my body, i'm moaning like a whore
>i arch back as hard as i can, letting him slam his cock into my prostrate with each thrust
>he's jerking me off, i'm delirious
>we both cum, he's like an explosion of warmth inside of me
>now i'm a fag
Moral of the story is always win.
>>335962896
A defeat learned from is more important than an empty victory.
>>335963468
The quality of my appreciation for marvel doesn't impact a whole lot I think. I have that feeling with a lot of games.
>>335963476
Playing Sent/Mag/Storm isn't the same thing as getting good. You can be a far worse player than your opponent and still win just because your team is bullshit.
>>335963553
Maybe a single stomp. But I've done first to 5 or first to 10 with someone significantly better than me, and I find those sessions are where I make my biggest improvements.
The feeling when you start taking the odd round off of them after getting nearly perfected to start feels so good.
Then you can check the replays later and watch yourself improve.
>>335963714
I can second this.
Getting better in USFIV was so painstaking, but watching people in the 3000PP rank start to make critical mistakes under pressure feels amazing, even if I lose.
>>335963706
>Playing Sent/Mag/Storm
> Sent/Mag/Storm
Confirmed for not knowing shit about the game. You can't even get the order right go back to shitposting in a different thread.
>>335963554
Basically you sold yourself over $100. You are either a retard or actually gay. $100 isn't even enough to humor the risk of blowing a dude. I think you just might be gay.
>>335963714
The issue here is yu start taking rounds not because you are getting better as a whole but you are just learning the patterns f the person you are playing against. You are not actually fundamentally improving.
>>335963886
>Not being confident enough in your smash skills to risk getting your ass pounded and deepthroating your m8's thick, hard manly dick while dressed up like a girl
Looks like we got a faggot over here lads
>>335963476
That's the thing, I am good enough to win in Marvel if I use the heavy hitters. I also fail to see how walking up to a machine not in use, and picking a team to fart around with is wasting anyone's time. If you were on teh machine already and I popped my quarter in and picked Roll/Bot/Dan, then yeah, I wasted your time.
And as for playing low level, I've got an 80% win ratio online in SC5. None of my friends are near that level. Again, why use an F1 car against civics? I still win 95% of the matches in my group even when dicking around.
>he has no desire for total victory, by any means necessary
>>335963554
He got your shit all over his dick. The room smelled of shit, dick, cum and man sweat. Shit on dicks will be a recurring theme for the rest of your life. Enjoy.
>>335963874
>I was not listing in any particular order
Are you seriously about to sit here and tell me that wasn't by far the best team in Marvel 2? Fuck off shit head. Take your pedestal with you.
Why does nobody ask NBA players or NFL players this question? Why is it so hard to accept that some people actually like to put effort into their games, "enjoy" practice and the thrill of competition, and hunger for victory?
saying "yeah well I play for fun, not to win" is just another way of saying "I suck and don't care about getting better".
>>335964054
It can definitely teach you how to play against that character. A good player will do the same to you and it helps you patch up any weakpoints.
Doing a set with a solid player they will identify and pick at any bad habits you have. Having a bad habit exploited is the easiest way to identify it, once you do so you can begin to fix it.
I don't think I really learn a ton grinding out ranked. If I watch where I improve the most it's in long sets.
>>335963094
Cringed.
>>335963624
The victory is your reward for learning, retard
I derive some enjoyment from winning, I derive more from good matches (whether I won or not)
>>335964163
How we win is important!
>>335964276
>I don't think I really learn a ton grinding out ranked.
Well the actual problem here is playing ranked and expecting to learn anything useful. That's the worst thing you can do next to practicing against the AI.
>all these people saying they enjoy a close loss
don't kid yourself. Those are the ones that hurt the most, when you know you could've won, but came up just short.
The only way to enjoy a loss is if you never had any hope of winning in the first place and are pleasantly surprised with how well you did, but if you ever have that mindset you're always going to lose. You must expect to win every single game.
>>335964093
Yeah if I come on and see you playing that team I'm going to pick a real team so you get the message. Or would you rather we both just keep picking our low tier teams to infinity and play the most boring matches in the world? Low tier in MvC2 is literal cancer.
Also I'm calling you bad because it's obvious you are a big fish in a small pond. You speak of winning percentages as if they mean anything. Yes I know I can "win" against 99% of the normies who play FG's but I know that means absolutely nothing.
It's not a question of why use F1's against civics. It's a question of why you are even racing civics to begin with. Even more so why you take any stock in a win against them.
>>335964565
>Those are the ones that hurt the most
Absolutely not. Getting your shit completely wrecked is much worse than a close match. At least with close matches, they had to give it there all as well and it could go in your favor the next time.
Close matches make for much more fun "best of 5's".
>>335964276
>If I watch where I improve the most it's in long sets.
Because you are learning the patterns of your opponent. Not improving fundamentally. There's a big difference and you should learn it.
>>335965140
I don't necessarily mean just against them. I mean in general.
Like if I spend a day doing mostly FT5 or whatever and then hop into ranked the next day I can usually bump up a league or so.
First to one doesn't really mean anything. You can gimmick people to death and avoid learning solid play.
>>335964919
all I'm saying is, if you feel good about yourself when you drop the game-winning combo and then get killed, you're playing the game wrong.
>>335965436
Losing because you got outplayed doesn't feel as bad as losing because you shit the bed.
>>335964054
You start taking rounds because you're now able to read your opponent, but that's an important skill to cultivate, especially since you can generalize some of these things.
Playing with people of your rank is good, but getting a long set in with someone who's actually good is really important, especially if you're bad.
if it's short, you don't learn shit, you just get bopped
but when it's long, you learn just what can be punished and how badly, really makes you clean up what moves you toss out, gives you motivation to go and sit down and clean up your inputs so they're super-consistent and you aren't dropping really basic shit, etc
playing KOF98 against my friends, I can throw out Power Charge all day and random DPs and they'll connect, there's a bunch of shit that you can throw out all day against low-level players and it'll work that pretty much are a "hit me, I'm an idiot" sign at high level
on Fightcade, I'll get punished for 40% or more for being reckless and throwing moves out like that
>>335965436
losing because I fucked up and dropped a combo is one thing, but being outplayed and losing by a hair is another
>>335964339
Kek
>>335965290
>you can gimmick people to death in first to 1s
I don't get this, it's not like every match is your first time seeing a character. You should be familiar with R. Mika by now, anon. No excuses for losing to her.
>>335965140
There's a difference between learning the metagame and the patterns of your opponents though. Some people genuinely do get better from long plays, but it's more likely that they will cripple themselves under a single style or pattern.
But the metagame is embedded within those fights, the matchups will always stick with the player regardless of whom or where he/she plays. To say that he's not improving fundamentally is a little licentious.
>>335965436
Not that anon but losing a close match because you got outplayed in the last moment is different than losing a close match because you outplayed them but dropped it in the middle of it.
Dropping the game winning combo only to lose is the worst but just both being down to almost no health and getting outplayed isn't nearly as bad and the intensity of the close game is good enough to overwhelm the loss.
Unless you're in a tournament.
Then it just sucks.
>>335961284
if i don't win 100% of the time then I am not having fun
>>335965781
Don't they call that choking?
>>335965896
>>335965664
Reading someone's playstyle is part of the game and it's the reason no tourny is best of one.
If I'm playing someone doing unsafe shit constantly I don't have a ton of time to recognize and react to that in a best of one. If I go in respecting them and they're doing crazy shit then I have maybe one round to adjust after recognizing this.
In a best of 3 or 5 or what have you then there is much more time to react and adjust. If that's all they had then they will lose, if they're good then they will adjust to your adjustment and the mindgames will start.
>>335961284
It's important to have them both at the same time.
It's one of the reasons why Trading Card Games get so much shit. Eventually peoples deck, playstyle or "enjoyment" will get fucking murdered by some negative form of powercreep so playing to win starts to get insanely high because nothing held on to for enjoyment works anymore.
>>335961284
I have a miserable time when I lose tbqh
I always feel like when I lose it's because I wasn't good enough to see such 'obvious' ways I could have won and I take it pretty hard.
>>335966304
I knew this one guy who was literally a hive of bad vibes. If he didn't win because he was better he did everything possible to make you fumble and fuck up during a match. I mean he would literally cripple your confidence.
It was impossible to have fun around him. I liked his desire to win, I think I should say that. But man he was toxic.
>>335961284
Depends.
For the most part, enjoyment. A lot of people enjoy winning, or finding the challenge to win, and so the two will be the same. Some people enjoy just screwing around with stuff. A lot of times, you won't find out what you are doing wrong and get better without screwing around a bit and trying new things, and so just "playing to win" can stick you in a rut and prevent improvement. Enjoyment can also keep you motivated to play the game, rather than getting bored and giving up.
On the other hand, there will be situations where you honestly want to play your strongest to win. Tournaments, or against players expecting your best, don't want to see you screwing around and attempting as many dragon punches in one match as you can. In those situations, you want to play to win, because you'll be hurting the expectations and enjoyment of others if you don't.
Fighting games aren't about having fun; they're about making sure the other guy isn't
I'll never feel more pleasure from losing than when my friend whom I always wrecked in fighting games suddenly got gud.
>>335968179
Confirmed for Season 2
Abel
Sakura
Decapre
C.Viper
Oro
>>335961284
It's most important to derive enjoyment through earnestly attempting to win.
If you cheat or abuse game-breaking exploits (i.e, going out-of-bounds on maps), kill yourself.
If you rage at other people, kill yourself.
If you can only have fun through ensuring your teammates don't have fun, kill yourself if you're playing in a competitive environment.
>>335969424
It's definitely important to enjoy winning, I see that as the most important component of strategy, if you can't feel good about winning, then all the training is empty and soulless, but if you're going to less losing fuel your desire to win, or become driven by pride and wrath for victory then it's not really worth it at all.
>>335962896
>>335969787
You're supposed to learn from losing, but you can't let loss fuel your desire to win, then shave off ONE victory to be elated and esteemable, like "YES< I WON, ONCE."
>>335969657
I'm not saying that enjoying winning is the most important thing though.
What I mean is that it's important you enjoy TRYING to in the first place, regardless of whether or not you win in the end.
I always try my best to enjoy simply playing the game.
I don't really care if I get teamed with shitters because I know what I'm getting into if if I solo-queue. As long as they're all trying to win the match as well, I'm happy, even if our methods don't quite go together.
I don't mind losing in a 1v1 because that usually means I got outplayed and thus have more to learn.
Although I supposed I'm a rare breed.
>>335970217
Oh well yeah, we're agreed. Participation is important no matter what.
>>335969989
>you can't let loss fuel your desire to win
Yea ok, but that's not what Cao Cao is saying at all. He's just simply saying losing isn't the end of everything.
>>335970505
I think that is what he is saying. I think he's saying losing is not an end but a means and that you should let it fuel your desire for victory, no matter the cost, knowing that is a poor strategy.
>>335961284
Personally, i don't give a shit as long as they don't squeal "WOW TRYHARD IM JUST PLAYING FOR FUN" when they get bodied or are just being complete retarded. pic related
if i'm playing a multiplayer game online i just want people to give me a real attempt. but it's different if im playing with friends
>>335961284
Do everything to win is the only viable way to play fighting games.
Exploit shit mechanics like corner, walls, cross-up on corner, zoning, combo resets.
Else you're condemned to just be a "casual" winner, online warrior and such, nothing wrong with this, but that's not going to take you far in offline events.
>>335970964
I play video games a lot and I see all sorts o9f trolls.
But it's important not to get fooled into NOT-PARTICIPATING just because someone is being an idiot. Just because someone is saying, "wow lol grow up it's a game lol," doesn't mean you sway and stop trying. A lot of people do that and I know a lot of people personally struggle with that and stop developing as players because of it.
>>335961284
Enjoyment takes precedence, but always losing probably isn't fun.
If it's a fighting game I take one character I like and if it turns out to not be top tier I turn it into my sub and pick a top tier as a main
>>335971549
> I turn it into my sub and pick a top tier as a main
Tier whores everyone.
>>335971549
I have people who are like, "losing isn't fun," but then they go in the next moment, "HOW THE FUCK DO YOU EVEN WIN?"
It's all a matter of perspective and you have to let your morals guide you, however you cannot let your morals skew your better judgement mid-match.
>>335961284
I would say that most of the enjoyment from a fighting game comes from improving your mastery over the game.
I've seen people enjoy fighting games making combo videos and not going up against other players at all. It's still mastery over the game.
Personally, though, the best test of my mastery is playing and beating someone else who is also good at that game.
>>335971772
I feel like I may be the only one who says this but a good fight is not one where both players are equally matched.
>>335970217
>assfaggots
The trouble with assfaggots is that even though I feel like I'm getting better, this is somewhat diluted by the fact I can never know for sure because teamwork is so important, and it's not something that you can easily practice and improve on.
>>335971941
>assfaggots
Grow the fuck up
>>335971618
And if the person I happen to pick was upper tier anyway? Do you want me to sub a bottom tier character?
>>335971689
I'm not sure what you're trying to say, is there a typo?
Of course someone who doesn't like losing is going to be frustrated when they always lose.
>>335961284
Winning is fun when it's challenging.
>>335971884
I don't know about that, because beating someone who's clearly not as good as I am isn't very fun for me. Always feel a bit guilty afterwards.
>>335972012
>triggered by terminology
Don't derail this thread, please. If you want to start a dotalike/assfaggots/herobrawler/moba war go do it in one of their threads.
>>335972064
>And if the person I happen to pick was upper tier anyway? Do you want me to sub a bottom tier character?
The point is you don't play character you like or enjoy, but because you want to win.
A good mind, a good player is one who picks a character that he will put effort to be good with if he has to, only because it's the character he chose, or one he is naturally good with.
You're the typical scrub, those shitters who are still playing Ken after all those years and are now switching to Bison.
>>335972176
I like the skill gap to be wiiiiiiiiiide.
That's when you know both players are really doing their best to figure out each other and gain victory.
>>335972287
There're different shades of tier-whoring. If over time the way the metagame evolves so it turns out that the character you favor turns out to be so bad that every match is very unfavorable, I think it's reasonable to switch. It's like starting every match with a built-in handicap.
you guys watchin daigo?
>>335972335
Yeah but in fighting games a massive skill gap just means one side gets completely schooled in less than two minutes.
>>335972012
Its the most accurate acronym for a game
>>335972176
>beating someone who's clearly not as good as I am isn't very fun for me. Always feel a bit guilty afterwards.
They dared to think they could compete at your level, someone had to give them a taste of humility.
>>335972543
Actually that not mean that at all!
In fighting games, a player can be generally new and only know how to do combos, and school a complete vertan in footsies and reads. Why does this happen so much in fighters?
>>335972287
But my first pick is always someone I enjoy. Did you somehow get angry because I said that I move them over as a fun sub if they aren't upper tier?
Or does sub in your language mean "never play"?
>>335972480
which stream? didn't know there was esports today
>>335972626
>I said that I move them over as a fun sub if they aren't upper tier?
Yes, partially.
This is just a cheap excuse for your tier-whoring.
>I-I'm not giving up this character ...I truly like.. I-I j-just leave him/her as my sub for now..
>But my first pick is always someone I enjoy
Nothing wrong with this.
>>335961284
Getting to gloat is more important.
>>335972905
this is my fear, do I get to win and be silent, or do people expect me to be victorious and gloat. Especially at a tournament, you will never know how people want you to react so you just have to shake their hand and walk away asap.
>>335973040
never gloat, it's unbecoming
>>335972880
Well, I guess I'll have to accept that you don't like it. I know you people, even if I did pick someone I liked and they were top tier, you'd blame me for picking that character and not on skill.
>>335972830
daigothebeastv at twitch
they haven't started playin yet, first hour was shilling their manga about sft battles
>>335973073
yeah but what if I'm dating someone and she'll give me the succ if i impress her with a little trash talk?
>>335972617
They're talking about a skill gap, and not new vs experienced.
New players also generally aren't going to be able to do reads very well, since their knowledge of the game is rudimentary still. Footsies, maybe.
>>335973195
Gamerbee isn't very experienced as a player and he still wins against veterans, that's a huge skillgap.
>>335973316
Gamerbee is not experienced in SF only.
He wins because he is a genius.
>>335973360
keklmao my sides etc
I hear that though, I just think you don't have to be a genius to win, even if the skill gap is beyond measure. That's what makes fighters so great. You ever lose to a girl who was completely new at a game and she looks at you condescendingly? Happens all the time.
>>335972591
Don't be fucking retarded
>daigo believes in long sets in tournaments
>say first to 7 as an example
agree? disagree?
>>335971063
What if I don't care about events because the FGC smells?
>>335973179
this is real life anon not manga/anime/comics/movies etc
>>335973584
Agree.
When we did clan matches over kaillera it was first to 10 a lot.
>>335973921
keklmaomysides my 2800pp is trying to explain this to you as well, stop talking to a brick wall etc.
>>335973584
if we increase set sizes or sample sizes events should probably be more than just 1 weekend considering all the mainstage games people want. check out how many games at evo and look at the # of people, imagine at least 50% more time added to make it bo5 instead of bo3.
i think top 8 or GF as ft7 would be fine.
>>335961284
Enjoyment
>Hearthstone
>have the cards to make a net-deck metacancer deck
>do so and ascend the ladder
>constantly stressed that I'm misplaying/mis-mulliganing versus X matchup
>go back to playing homebrewed deck the next month, plateau at old rank
>its actually fun
I can't imagine playing to win over playing to have fun. Having fun while trying to win a hard game is one thing, but "I would rather win versus enjoying myself while doing it" is rather bleak.
How you win is important.
