Hey old talent trees are back
>>334774694
Nope, you can max the entire thing out.
Choice and consequence is what is needed.
>>334774870
There is consequences. If you don't spec into BiS the consequence is less dps.
>>334775715
No you retard, you can get ALL the legendary weapon talents.
BiS is having all points maxed out.
>>334774870
There wasn't much of that. There was a best build determined pretty much right away at every patch. The only time you went off the BiS/cookie cutter spec was to do silly shit that wasn't really viable. Or if you were new.
What fucking game
>>334777591
Wow legion
>>334774694
Where do you even begin in that? Where is the "starting point"?
>>334779208
The one with the solid yellow border in the middle.
>>334778859
thats a funny way to spell wew lad
I'm actually looking forward to Legion, if only to start a new character and experience the new class fantasy from level 1.
>>334774870
That will take a LONG time to max out.
You can max it out eventually but the idea (which I believe has not been implemented in alpha yet) is that you will slowly fill them up doing shit in the world and through patches, which means if you fuck up putting points while leveling so that you end up being sub-optimal in raiding, you are fucked.
>>334779484
Duration required to max does not for meaningful choice make.
>>334779425
>I'm actually looking forward to Legion
>Experience the new class fantasy
Take a good look.
>>334779613
it does, when you wont be able to max it out for the majority of the expansion.
>>334779616YOU FACE JARAXXUS
>>334779616
jesus christ, how horrifying
>>334779556
Yeah you have to do stuff so you can get artifact points and once you get enough you can put it into something, I think the big golden ones cost more
>>334779616
YES
LORD NARAXXUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
>>334779616
>956k health
Jesus Christ, the numbers have gotten retarded.
>>334774694
As long as respecs exist, choice is meaningless. When 10 gold will make it all undone, there's no point to it.
Know what would make for a really interesting WoW-server? One where you could have one spec, and one set of talents. Once chosen they could not be undone in any way.
You were stuck with your shit forever.
>>334779686
>Hurr Im gunna take a bad choice because I can get to the good end choices in a few months.
Yeah thats so non meaningful.
>>334779834
why are people afraid of big numbers?
>>334774694
unless there is going to be something added that isn't in the beta currently, it will take a pretty long time to max out. like 2-3 months if you are a hardcore player.
>>334779904
Yeah getting stuck with a shit choice for a year and more is totally alright and wont bother anybody.
>>334774870
>implying there was a choice
the only "consequence" was not picking the cookie cutter talents
>>334779935
They're inflated and pointless. How the fuck are you supposed to tell how much damage you are doing if you have to do the math in your head how 30,000 damage takes away from a billion.
Wow, so cool.
>>334779861
By interesting you mean stupid, right? If I make a mistake, I can make a new character. We had this system in Diablo 2, that's where it originated, and it sucked shit back then, too. I don't need to be punished and lose potentially weeks/months/years of play time just because I made one mistake eons ago.
>>334780131
>How the fuck are you supposed to tell how much damage you are doing if you have to do the math in your head
Noone does that faggot they all use sims and shit.
>>334779983
Simple to fix, don't make retarded choices, choose wisely.
You know what I DIDN'T see with all the recent Nostalrius cucks posting screenshots? I didn't see any screenshots of them showing off non-cookie cutter talent choices.
>>334780131
the game and mods effectively truncate them visually. There's already been one stat squish, and I imagine we're due for another soon.
>>334779745FLESH TROMBONE
>>334780210
You shouldn't make mistakes. Your choices should be thought out, and you should have to live with the consequences of said choices.
Fuck you and your do-overs. Do it right.
>>334774694
fuck outta here stink ass doodoo head
>>334779935
engine limitations. once you hit high enough numbers the game breaks. pandaria had problems with invincible bosses when this happened the first time
>>334780336
>Vanilla talent trees were the best ever
>Searches "Best Vanilla build for *insert class* WoW"
kek
>>334780517
Now this is a real answer. Thank you anon.
Yes it can be maxed out if you guys were wondering
>>334780518
Welcome to RPGs pham
>>334780517
This. It's why they supposedly did the stat squish in WoD (I haven't actually played it). Makes sense honestly.
>>334779616
>INVASION
>it's just some demons standing around
>that zhevra standing there not giving a shit
>>334780568
....so are the gold ones just bonuses for those skills or is this how you have to get Invisibility and whatever the other two are now? (I didn't play mage much)
>>334780624
The stat squish was in mop and it didn't even last half the expansion until we were back up over presquish numbers
It also seems like these talents will make a relatively on your spells
>>334780676
>undead invasion precursor event to Wrath of the Lich King in 2008
>same thing with skellingtons
what were you expecting?
>>334780774
>HAHA FROZEN LET IT GO
>not even related to the effect of the talent
Jesus that's lazy
>get a refund on legion after subbing since wrath
>cancel subscription
>gm says thank you for your time and support, will be sending you a thank you package in the mail to your main account (i told them which account and character)
>they sent it to a level 1
>on the wrong realm
>on the wrong bnet account
10/10
>>334780774
How is this system gated? Because that's fucking absurd.
From what I'm hearing about it anyone who doesn't start the xpac day one is going to be fucked....and I don't even want to consider alts.
>>334780336
You had pom pyro spec for fire, ya had frost pvp? Ya had pve frost for mc , you could then also grab 51 point fire for ignite rolling pvp.
The choices were fluid. It was like lego. Sure theres a lego design thats objectively the best at X. But the solution isnt to throw away the lego blocks and offer a figurine with 3 difderent weapons you can slot into his hand and call it customization. Thats cod talk. Has no buisness in an mmorpg
>>334780676
I miss Rift for event-invasions.
Every now and then, a certain plane would invade a zone, and it'd fill to the brim with roaming packs of that plane's mobs.
Each pack would come with a few damage dealers, casters and bruisers to fuck you up, and they'd attack and claim towns/cities.
If you beat them back, a massive event-boss spawned which everyone could group up to kill and end the invasion.
My point is, THAT'S how you make it feel like an invasion. Not just mobs standing around.
>>334780849
Some times demons will attack towns and kill quest givers and such causing lower levels to call on higher levels to get rid of them and save the town
>>334780954
What pet did you get, was it the golden "cuck"?
>>334780979
chances are you will only get to progress up to point x in any given patch, and every patch after that will come with some sort of catchup mechanism.
apparently leveling up artifacts for your offspecs is faster too.
>>334780849
Fair enough, but at least that's a little more in character for undead nobodies.
>I, LORD JARAXXUS, LAY CLAIM TO THIS PATH
>ALL WHO DESIRE PAVED PASSAGE MUST SUBMIT TO ME
>>334781043
i don't know, the bnet account that character is on has no gametime and hasnt had gametime since like first week of wrath
>>334781013
I tried rift. It was fun but ended up feeling grindy.
The problem was there wasnt enough coordination between randoms required.
Im going to come out and say it: what makes games fun is being forced to coordinate with randoms or die. Look at dota. The emotional rush of getting through something challenging with good players is exhilerating.
The seering hatred for noobs that do the wrong thing causing YOU to fail is emotionally addicting/stimulating.
The moments where they do the wrong thing but you win despite their fuck ups is the one true way to feel like the ultimate badass.
>>334780474
Yeah so how the fuck am I supposed to know what to do the first run through? What if I don't like what I get? What if it's not fucking real fucking life it's a video game and doing it this way isn't fun in any conceivable way? "Should" is a poisonous word that seeps into logic and destroys it utterly if left unchecked. We don't live in an ideal world and we are not ideal people, it doesn't matter what "should" be, the game "should" be good without breaking my balls.
I don't care how you "feel", you stupid hippy, how you "feel" is secondary to my experience in the game. You want meaningful choices? Build a meaningful system, don't build a purposefully mangled system that punishes the player for making mistakes not by playing, but by building a fucking character wrong. The worst adventure game experiences ever wrought were those that told you to replay the game from the fucking beginning because you forgot to fart on a piece of cheese or whatever and now you can't get the key 2/3 of the way through the fucking game so you're trapped in a room. Doing that, but in an RPG, would be the height of stupidity.
>>334780884
the spirit of the song is overcoming your limitations and excelling despite being held back in your youth by authority figures. It's covered quite clearly in the second and fourth stanzas;
>Don't let them in / don't let them see
>be the good girl you always have to be
>conceal, don't feel / don't let them know,
>well now they knooooow~
and
>It's time to see what I can do
>to test the limits and break through
>no right, no wrong, no rules for meeeeee~
>and now I'm freeeeeeeeee~
so you're overcoming your traditional limits to critical hit damage multipliers to reach new "big numbers" by removing your inhibitions with ice magic. Duh.
>>334781145
Put a free 10 day trial on it. Now I'm dying to know.
>>334781460
Similar to something I just posted. Video games... like life... arent fun if you dont have the emotions of deep loss due to a mistake or immense gain due to a mixture of skill and luck.
The dull safe-zone games these days dont understand that. They dilute the emotional experience a game can give and just make it a bland.. eh.. feeling
Nothing really bad or good can happen.
This is why dota is so popular. It allows players to experience the full range of emotions.
>>334781438
Rift is a very grindy game.
There's a reason I said "miss" though, as in love no longer. It didn't used to be as grindy as it is, but once it went F2P, Trion shadow-nerfed the experience most enemies/quests gave so that you'd almost be forced to buy shit from their shop.
And the coordination you're talking about used to be there when the game was still subscription-based.
Massive raids of hundreds of people would not pull an event-boss while waiting for everyone to get there (within reason of course).
Rift actually had a great community too pre-F2P...
Fuck Trion. You fuckers deserve to have all your servers on "low".
man
i just want the new expac to be at least enjoyable
at the very least like mop or even cata
i dont want to wait for my profession cooldowns
i just want it to be not like wod
>>334781715
>>334781438
This DOTAshilling is so fucking blatant. Go kill yourself my man.
>>334781665
just checked and the character was some level 80 that my friend levelled when i was sleeping or whatever back in wrath
so cant log in to level 20+ on a trial so guess we'll never know what this severance package is
>>334781538
>>334781819
The 10 day trial revives the account fully, like an actual sub. Basically a sub but you can only play the first level worth of content.
>>334781773
I'm sorry, Anon. But it's Warlords 2.0
>>334781723
Yeah I figured.
I mean when I played the game was easier than retail wow.
The entire mana bar was worthless because you never ran out unless you nonstop spammed your biggeat aoe for literally 1-2 minutes straight.
They removed fall damage entirely... and the instances werent challenging at all. Just a mad pull and aoe fest
>>334780474
Classes get changed though, so what would be a good build in X.X is now a bad build a patch later
>>334781773
It's not like WoD. Trust me, I'm in Alpha.
>>334779616
Is that the fucking barrens? Jesus christ, Blizzard.. get your shit together.
>>334779616
>can't even fill a single action bar
What went wrong
>>334782069
What? It's a worldwide invasion event, just like the Wrath launch.
>>334781807
Its got its flaws dont get me wrong. But its a game that really throws aside the "lets cater to casuals" mentality... and its fucking huge for it.
Lol to a lesser extent to. It helps that its a pvp game and that no matter how much loud noobs whine they cant nerf the enemy team.
>>334782154
>playing beyond TBC
I'm sorry.
>>334781903
here it is
a chocolate cookie with
>Use: Makes you feel a little better
vendors for 1 silver
a lollipop (food)
vendors for 3 copper
and "Yun's Chocolate Stout" with flavour text
>"Chocolately, nutty... is that a marshmallow?"
vendors for 1 copper
amazing
its literally junk and a cookie that implies im feeling bad for unsubbing and refunding holy god
>>334781460
>how the fuck am I supposed to know what to do the first run through
Read, faggot. Read.
>What if I don't like what I get?
Then you shouldn't make such retarded decisions.
>doing it this way isn't fun in any conceivable way
I'd find it fun. And I don't give a shit what you'd consider fun you dense themepark-fuck.
>the game "should" be good without breaking my balls
It's not breaking your balls now, and it's till not good. Sub-numbers show that.
>I don't care how you "feel"
You clearly care enough to type up all this retarded shit.
>how you "feel" is secondary to my experience in the game
>how you feel is less relevant than how I feel
>system that punishes the player for making mistakes
And you wonder why WoW is dying.
The point of the new talent system was to make players make hard decisions between 3 useful skills. No matter which one you picked, it would define the way you played.
All of that is completely meaningless if you can just pay a few bucks for a do-over.
>>334781715
>muh feels
I told you I don't care how you feel. Shove something in your sopping vagina and fuck off. If you want a real discussion, don't make an emotional appeal, I am not you and I do not feel how you do.
>>334782021
>>334781910
ill still try it
im not gonna buy it on launch though
ill wait for that email to beg for me to try the damn thing
then again its not like the preorder numbers matter now because blizz isnt showing their numbers anymore
>>334782207
>enjoying TBC
Man, I thought people here were supposed to have taste.
>>334782161
Jesus fuck, is this what ASSFAGGOTS players actually believe?
Your entire genre is a casual shitfest. You're a hugbox for people who can't play RTS games.
You just don't see it as catering to the casuals because you ARE a casual.
Every person alive looking from the outside in can see how casual you are.
>>334779613
By that logic the talents you chose to progress through the game with never mattered
>>334781910
mite b gud
the questing and open world was great last spring, I just didn't give a fuck about raiding ogres. Foundry was okay, but the story took a shit in Tanaan and despite the zone being good, it wasn't worth mucking around in for a year. If there was at least one more raid patch, one more world zone like Farahlon, and Gul'dan not getting away/Iron Horde surrendering into a normal Horde again
>>334780131
>how 30,000 damage takes away from a billion.
Anon I'm not even a smart math man but holy shit you're retarded if you can't do something like that on the fly.
Also you can change everything to percentages in the options regardless if that makes things easier for you.
>>334782149
Theyve already catered to the low skill and the down sydrome players
Now they will cater to the missing finger disabled people.
Activision shows that theres a huge market of 4 fingered 12 year olds that desperately want to fuck your mom.
They must capture this market with legion.
>>334782226
>Gwarwarg invites you to join the guild: Trololol
>There are still people using the default UI in 2016
>>334782293
Feelings and emotions are what make a game enjoyable lmao.
>>I dont care about feelings
>> blizzard help I dun goof and the game punished me and now the bad feeling is happening pls make it go awaaay.
>>334782242
>I'd find it fun. And I don't give a shit what you'd consider fun you dense themepark-fuck.
What a motherfucking coincidence, I don't care what YOU find fun. Also, not sure why you're bringing up sub numbers, I'm not talking about WoW I'm just talking about video games in general, so fuck off with that.
>And you wonder why WoW is dying.
More WoW shit, despite me never bringing the game up. You seem retarded, I'm going to go do something more productive than discuss game design with a dipshit.
>>334782657
What's the problem mang?
>>334782805
>I don't care what YOU find fun
Then why bother arguing with me in the first place you dumb shit? Because you DO care what I find fun, even if you're too retarded to know it.
>so fuck off with that
Strike a nerve did I?
>WoW shit
Jesus fuck, are you even aware of where you are? This is WOW THREAD you fucking bastardized mongoloid.
>I'm going to walk away and claim the other person is a meanie!
Yeah that'll show me.
If you're reading this (and I know you are), know that you're the dumbest motherfucker I've met on this site in quite a while, and that's quite the achievement.
>>334782346
im sure thats not his point
dont pull the whole "me le game is moar skillz than ur game" shit
i played both league and dota
the way they welcome and entice new or casual players are fairly different
what im saying is i guess the "welcoming" environment between the two games are black and white
when it comes to the mmos or the mobas
they aim to be very welcoming so that they can milk the most money out the casuals that way
>>334782017
This.
>>334782346
Rts is great too.
Just things like pve content in wow. It doesnt cause feels. It neeeds to cause feels to be enjoyed.
Theres two kinds of feels. The fake feels. Like when they try to throw in some sob story about some orc whos wife got lost in the barrens...
And real feels like when your fucking priest decided to accidentally not use fade. Pull agro on a dungeon boss and die? Ruining 2 hours of work.
The second one creates a strong emotional low.
Alternating emotional lows and highs causes addiction. And is what makes games and life fun and entertaining.
Replacing this so the priest CANT make a mistake. Removes the emotional low. Diluting the emotional high and resulting in 5 millon lost subs.
>>334783243
I'm not calling out your game, I'm calling out your fucking genre. You are simple fools suckered into simple games so that your corporate pimps can milk you dry.
>>334783423
who cares
i dont care for the genre
im just making a fucking point you autistic little shit
>>334782350
>third-person shooter where you had to put points in at level up to make the actual shooting worth a damn
The worst design decision for ME1.
>>334783423
>100 hour skill floor
>simple
I will never understand you shitposters
>>334783363
>feels
>ASSFAGGOTS player
I can't fathom how you people sustain yourselves.
>>334783363
The only feels dota evokes from me is rage and contempt for the rest of my team. Cyka blyat.
>>334783482
>who cares
Clearly not you. Go be shit at life somewhere else.
>>334783489
>100 hour skill floor
>floor
Fuck you don't even know the terminology you're trying to lie about. You people truly are lost.
>>334782346
This is really rich coming from someone who plays a GCD MMO. I get it, your 1.6s GCD combat is far more hardcore than assfaggots.
>>334783617
what crawled up your ass and died, shitposter?
>>334783617
kill yourself
>>334783617
>>334782161
>>334781438
>Playing Dota in Solo Queue
Get help.
>>334784230
It's not that bad man.
Yeah it makes you angry, but it also makes ya feel like a boss.
That's why it's the number one game on Steam.
>>334783492
Seriously though.
The only reason to play games is feels. If you're not getting feels while playing a game you should probably quit. It's not making you happy. or Sad or having any affect.
Games need to have visceral feels to be considered good.
There's a balance ofcourse you can't just kill the player at every oppertunity unless you're dark souls.
Nor can you never kill the player and just pile reward on reward for doing easy things.
Games need to create emotional highs and lows to be captivating, That's what makes a game actually good.
As much as you autisms want to deny it, humans are emotional creatures FIRST. We use logic and reason as a tool to appease our emotions. But they are in the driver seat and determine what we do and what we enjoy.
>>334779616
>me and my friend kyle here
>we were hitchhiking down a long, lonesome road
>when all of a sudden
>there shined the shiny demon, in the middle, of the road
>AND HE SAID
>>334784659
>CYKA BLYAAAATT
>Destro lock
>buff up artifact to get 20% reduced time on incinerate
>talent to reduce cast time by 30%
>different talent to make it hit all nearby targets
I never played lock but chaingun incinerates has me mildly intrigued
>>334782226
the crying peon that used to be on the unsub page actually had an effect on my brother
>>334784659
plaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay the best soooooooooong in the woooorld
>>334780774
>1% INCREASED DAMAGE IS BORING LET'S CHANGE THE TALENT TREES
>SO HERE IS 40% MORE DAMAGE YEAH!
>>334774694
Oh yeah, the dumbshit system that nobody misses is back, amazing
>>334781723
Yeah they really fucked the people that bought the game. A shame too, It was fun at first.
Trion definitely ruined any chances of me trying it again with the shop necessity.
>>334784659
YOU FACE JARAXXUS!
>>334782242
>things I disagree is in the game
>that must be why the game is dying!
>>334774694
Op...no...
>>334780474
>You shouldn't make mistakes
Holy shit go fuck yourself with your tryhard bullshit. Never work in game design
>>334782226
>>334782556
>go back to wow on cata or any of the following expansions
>instant bot invite to random guild without any focus or community
every time
why do these guilds even exist?
>>334782242
>Read, faggot. Read.
What an awful sentiment. Don't find things out about the game naturally through trial and error, go look up a guide someone on the forum wrote and copy down the optimal choices.
>3 raid tiers in 3 years
the state of modern wow
>>334788558
They used to exist because of the guildperk that made it so that any guild member generates 10% of the gold he makes for the guild bank.
So these guilds were basically exploitative scams using beginners to make $$$$$.
In WoD they removed that perk because they realized that its terrible.
>>334788816
And dont you dare pick something that might get nerfed in the future
>>334788935
That's assuming that Legion comes out on time. WoD was delayed for example.
>>334774694
>>334775825
It'll literally be YEEEEAAARSSS before you have everything. The more you spec the more expensive it gets
>>334779616
why even bother having runes anymore?
>>334788095
Mistakes are fine but you should be punished for them. If you're making mistakes with just a slap on the wrist, the game is going to be boring.
If you are warned that talents are permanant that require gold to undo...
and you derp and accidentally put them in the wrong spot and hit confirm (I know vanilla didn't have a confirm). I think that's a fair punishment.
Worse still if you think something will be good but it turns out it doesn't fit how you ACTUALLY play. For instance ignite rolling mages, the THINK theyl'l sit there seeing massive ignite numbers. Instead they would've been better off if they just put points into mana regen while casting.
Sure there's a hand full of 'cookie cutter' talent specs. They should have been fixed by tweaking the talents existing talent system to offer a lot more 'good' talents than points you have.
I know you weren't talking about vanilla or WoW even, but what they did with retail was they took what was essentially a lego block system; and replaced it with
>>334779834
and this is AFTER a number crunch to reduce them
>>334789113
they kinda wanted it delayed and released on some holiday to boost sales if i can recall
i didnt see them having any other reason to delay the damn expac
>>334789202
>If you're making mistakes with just a slap on the wrist, the game is going to be boring.
Why?
>>334789182
>It'll literally be YEEEEAAARSSS before you have everything.
No it won't. I don't know why people ever think this because unless there's some form of raid lockout or something you KNOW some maniacs will play 24/7 and get this shit done faster than anyone at Blizzard anticipated.
>>334789795
yes and that's exactly why artifact power will have a weekly cap, so the "I only play 6 hours a week and haven't seen content past lfr" crowd won't have something new to cry about
>>334789202
>If you're making mistakes with just a slap on the wrist, the game is going to be boring
You know what's boring? Leveling the same class all over again as you were before just because you put a point in the wrong place
>>334789929
>weekly cap
Because that shit worked out so well for the first version of XIV.
>>334790076
don't fuck up
>>334790159
WoW always had weekly and daily caps on shit.
All the endgame loot was gated behind those.
>>334774694
0.002 Dollars has been deposited into your account!
Great work!
>>334789202
>Going for the same ol' cookie cutter is better than situational choices
Obligatory
https://www.change.org/p/mike-morhaime-legacy-server-among-world-of-warcraft-community
At 178K signatures currently.
>>334791039
>Shills bring about the downfall of Nost
>Then they cry about it
>Then they start shilling petitions
How sad.
>>334780517
The 32 bit integer limit is why SoO Garrosh had 4 phases
>>334786716
retarded vanillababs asked for it
>>334786716
>Implying critical damage modifiers were ever as low as 1%
At that point they would've never been picked.
>level 100 trial account
>>334780708
Gold ones are big upgrades/new skills even, the neutral ones are slight upgrades of the existing kills.
>>334774870
>consequences for picking what you want
It's a fucking skill tree not a story dialogue option
>>334790238
Fuck off. You're the type of people that kill videogames
>>334789290
>>334790076
>>334790882
Don't bother arguing with people who think the old talent system is better. They don't even play WoW any more and just shit post based on hearsay. You're not arguing against their logic, you're arguing against nostalgia and you will never win.
>>334788935
What's the second tier in Vanilla?
>>334792965
Vanilla WoW also didnt make you commit.
Respeccing too quickly became punishing because the gold cost went up, but it was alright.
Even if you were a poor nig you knew that you could always fix a broken spec at some point.
He's just a retard.
>>334779616
>class fantasy
Who the fuck coined this term and why is it used? It's fucking retarded.
>>334774694
Why does it look like the millenium falcon?
>>334792886
lol what
>>334793052
Blackwing Lair
>>334793314
Its not a bad term, but they overuse it and make it sound extra faggy.
People used to talk about class identity in the past, this is pretty much that.
They use that concept to give specs like Combat some flavor.
>>334793052
Blackwing Lair
How is this game not dead yet?
