So who had the better argument?
>>334657890
Isaac.
>>334657890
SHUT IT DOWN
>>334658727
I agree, but at the same time I'm blinded by how absolutely terrible his australian accent. Which is wierd because he's not even australian, I think he's from NZ.
>>334657890
The bartender ripped the shit outta that libertarian drivel the game is built on.
>>334659012
Then maybe it's a New Zealand accent
>>334659563
How's your wife's son?
>>334659563
>libertarian drivel
Is it? I mean the only reason JC can do what he does is because he was created to be the perfect human. When you're artificially engineered to be the ubermensch it means you've accomplished everything through means other than your own merit and ability. I thought the message is more that if someone's going to be in charge of the world, at least have them not be assholes.
And speaking as someone who used to live in Hong Kong, the China of Deus Ex is not the China of today. Maybe the China of 20 years from now will be, but they still have yet to make aspects of big govenment work.
>>334657890
Usually JC wins, but in this case he wasn't really contributing, he was mostly just moving the conversation along. It's like asking who had the better argument, Socrates or Glaucon.
>>334659012
>I think he's from NZ.
Nah. He's Australian.
Going back to Isaac's argument, he shows and highlights the structural weakness of a democratic system that restricts politcal will in comparison to a centralized (although Authoritarian) government that's able to focus its society to achieve it's Political and Financial and goals.
>>334657890
For those like me who couldn't remember the argument word for
>Isaac: China is the last sovereign country in the world. Authoritarian but willing - unlike U.N.-governed countries - to give its people the freedom to do what they want.
>JC: As long as they don’t break the law.
>Isaac: Listen to me. This is real freedom, freedom to own property, make a profit, make your life. The West, so afraid of strong government, now has no government. Only financial power.
>JC Denton: Our governments have limited power by design.
>Isaac: Rhetoric--and you believe it! Don’t you know where those slogans come from?
>JC Denton: I give up.
>Isaac: Well-paid researchers - how do you say it? - 'think tanks,' funded by big businesses. What is that? A 'think tank'?
>JC Denton: Hardly as sinister as a dictator, like China’s Premier.
>Isaac: It’s privately-funded propaganda. The Trilateral Commission in the United States for instance.
>JC Denton: The separation of powers acknowledges the petty ambitions of individuals; that’s its strength.
>Isaac: A system organized around the weakest qualities of individuals will produce these same qualities in its leaders.
>JC Denton: Perhaps certain qualities are an inseparable part of human nature.
>Isaac: The mark of the educated man is the suppression of these qualities in favor of better ones. The same is true of civilization.
I agree with what Isaac's saying here, but his whole argument for authoritarianism assumes an "educated man" will be in charge, or that the people will be "educated" and able to suppress their undesirable qualities. Which is a pretty big "if". That being said, JC has no real response in regards to the specific example of China v. US, and no answer to the criticism of the oligarchy that the US had become in the Deus Ex universe.
So I think Isaac won the argument, but he's not completely right either.
>>334660081
>Dragon's Tooth as a katana
fucking disgusting
>>334660081
This. Isaac isn't saying western democracy is bad, he's saying that the inherent flaws of a limited powers system prevents the creation of strong leaders, and if a system is filled with weak leaders then the system overall will be shitty and toothless.
>>334660329
>but his whole argument for authoritarianism assumes an "educated man" will be in charge
Hey it's not like Deng Xiaoping was capable of living forever.
>>334660329
>his whole argument for authoritarianism assumes an "educated man" will be in charge
That's the point. His argument, when carried to a logical extreme, implies that an authoritarian government ruled by an artificial superintelligence is the ideal system. This also relates to the Morpheus conversation and the game's ending.
Man, all this reminds me how much bullshit JC started to spout in Invisible War. It's like he forgot everything he once believed in, it's downright depressing.
If there is a lesson to be learned from this, is that you should never share your brain with an AI recovering from stroke. It's not going to end well for you.
>>334660994
It's literally just a technological version of the philosopher king argument
>>334660994
I get that that's what his coversation is alluding to in the game as a whole, but I think Isaac is just saying that a government's capability is truly measured by the strength of its leaders.
>>334661620
The whole point of government is to be a good and efficient system regardless of the leaders, though. "If men were angels, no government would be necessary", etc. So what Isaac's saying is somewhat true, but it's not really relevant when trying to figure out which system of government is best - it's more just a commentary on how politicians have a lot of responsibility and need to be capable.
I support Isaac's position because I have lived around the mainlanders in China, and those people need a strong centralized government because they are dumb as shit. And I don't blame them for it, they were basically medieval peasants until only a century ago, then got suddenly uplifted into the modern age. It was too fast, they couldn't adapt. Democracy isn't going to work with the mainlanders until their collective IQ goes up a bit.
>>334662323
Isaac was saying though that the west has no real govenment, just economic groups, and that the people's fear of strong government created that situation. I mean that's his exact words.
>>334662447
That's not how IQ works
>>334657890
>baby's first political discourse
This is why videogames are a joke
>>334662916
I'm aware, but we both know what I mean. People that just spent over 2000 years being nothing but dumb serfs can't just suddenly stop being dumb serfs, it takes time.
>>334662916
I think he's trying to say their education needs to improve.
>>334663283
That's retarded. It did a very good job with the limited text amount it had.
Or share with us some political discourse that managed to make better arguments with short dialogue.
>>334662447
This makes sense, it also explains why Africa is fucked.
>>334659012
>Not liking Isaac the black Australian bartender working in hong kong
>Not liking all the bad voice acting in the game
I SPEEL MY DRINK!
