Why don't they rerender the CGI backgrounds in high res? At least?
>>334506363
Because they lost the source data? You fucking retard.
>>334506517
What, for 3 games in a row? Couldn't they afford a fucking CD-R?
>>334506714
They lost data for every of the PSX FFs as well as KH1.
This one and KH1 were actually recoded from scratch since they didn't even have the source code.
For FF7 and 8 they at least had leftover PC version source code (PS1 one was gone though).
>>334506517
Hey, don't insult me like that, you piece of shit.
The downscaling was a deliberate artistic choice to make it more videogamey.
>>334506714
I don't think you understand how assets work.
Take this image for example. Can you "rerender" it and add more information to it with it alone?
>>334506517
Then how did they release it on the PS3?
>>334508312
port of the steam version
>>334508312
See >>334506821
KH1 and FF9 are recoded from scratch with assets reverse engineered from the retail discs.
For FF7 and FF8 they had the PC version source code.
>>334506363
Those files already exist in higher resolution. No idea why SE didn't use them aside from being lazy bastards.
>>334508689
Don't worry, a mod will add them to the game eventually.
>>334508689
They don't.
I don't think you realize how exactly prerendered backgrounds work at all, PROTIP, they aren't static JPGs.
All we have is 30 something renders in a portfolio of one of the artists who worked on FF9.
He neither has the original assets nor did he make ALL of them.
You are beyond fucking retarded.
>>334508689
I've only ever seen a handful of high res images posted - nowhere near enough to cover the entire game. Do you have any proof that high res versions of all the backgrounds still exist?
>>334508689
they don't have high res backgrounds for all of the game, though. Only some of them. And it would be weird to go back and forth from super high res backgrounds to playstation 1 rendered art.
>>334508780
I don't think so because it's not a matter of replacing an image. You need to actually designate which areas you can pass through, interactable points, etc. And I imagine those already existing would get wrecked if you replace current backgrounds with ones in higher resolution, but what do I know.
>>334506363
>>334508689
Cuz they lost the original assets ages ago.
Dont ask me how, but they also managed to lose the original Kingdom Hearts assets too.
>>334508876
Don't forget that backgrounds are actually animated and made of multiple layers, which again is not covered by the 30 something showcases in random dude's portfolio.
>>334508225
ENHANCE
>>334508969
They didn't "lose" them. They deliberately and willfully deleted them due to lack of planning and foresight.
>>334506363
so I know 9 enforces 4:3 ratio, but what 7 and 8? because that shit has to look horrible stretched for widescreen.
>>334509217
Fucking jap shits
>>334509298
They are 4:3 as well.
RE0 HD looked so good because they actually kept the high res backgrounds
What I don't understand is why the FMVs seem much higher quality, almost like DVD-quality. A filter alone wouldn't be enough to convert 240p video to 480p, they either have magic elves or there were actually higher quality assets remaining for the FMV streams
>>334509217
>>334509389
>hurr durr why didn't they think they'd be rehashing their old games due to being too incompetent to actually make new ones
>>334509417
Not all of them. If you played REmake HD and RE0 HD you'd know how some of the backgrounds were blatantly fucking upscaled and looked like shit. There weren't all that many of them, but there were some real shitty upscales there.
How the fuck did they lose the source files? They were hugely successful games. I still have files that are 20 years old on a backup harddrive.
>>334508689
If they had all those assets saved this would've been a perfectly updated version. Dayum shame.
FF IX wasn't even a good game to begin with.
>>334509457
They had original video masters for them. As in the orignal pre-rendered videos they made before downscaling them for the PS1.
>>334509558
They deleted them plain and simple because 20 years ago nobody fucking expected they'd be rehashing their own shit.
It's not like this was exclusive to Japan.
Pretty much everyone did it.
The whole "keeping your shit for possible future" shit didn't start until 6th Gen
>>334509558
HD "remasters" were an uncommon idea back then
>>334509613
That explains it then
Wish FF7 and FF8 had them too
>>334509849
They did.
Both FF7 and FF8 re-releases also have high-res FMVs.
>>334509849
Anon they did, check the steam versions of 7 and 8
>>334508876
none of the environment interaction is bound to the background image
>>334509740
>The whole "keeping your shit for possible future" shit didn't start until 6th Gen
Actually it wasn't until 6th gen that games actually started becoming smaller. Pre-renders were gigantic files because they had far more texture and geometric data than even modern games have. All of the sets in FF9, in their fully rendered form, probably took up several terabytes, which would have filled an entire server rack back then
Holding onto it all for no reason would have not made any business sense, before remasters came to be
>>334510023
The background images are not made out of a single jpg anon. They are complex multi-layered animated objects.
>>334510092
I know but you do not code your collision/actions in conjuction to the background for that exact reason BECAUSE they're animated
>>334510078
>Pre-renders were gigantic files because they had far more texture and geometric data than even modern games have. All of the sets in FF9, in their fully rendered form, probably took up several terabytes, which would have filled an entire server rack back then
Stop embarassing yourself because what you just said is absolutely patheic.
Protip, an average very complex 3D model is no bigger than 1MB at most. And the PSX-era pre renders aren't anywhere near as complex as geometry in modern games by the way. The textures were also far cry from the modern ones. As a profesional 3D artist I came here to laugh at you.
lol why dont they just draw over it geeze
>>334510204
Of course not, I was merely pointing out that even taking into account that the collision map is separate layer entirely, the backgrounds themselves are still not possible to do out of those jpegs.
>>334510307
>drawing over pre-rendered 3D
Kill yourself for actually being this stupid.
Last time they actually tried it we got Heroes 3 HD.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrRr0DMnBc4
>>334510403
its easy anon just take a pencil and draw over it
>>334510220
>Protip, an average very complex 3D model is no bigger than 1MB at most.
I have relatively simple, flat photoshop documents that are 100 MB or larger. I am admittedly not a CG artist but even CG art of that time with corresponding uncompressed textures would have represented very large files even for simple models, and we are talking about entire sets the size of towns.
>And the PSX-era pre renders aren't anywhere near as complex as geometry in modern games by the way. The textures were also far cry from the modern ones.
Is that why modern hardware still can't render something like Toy Story in full geometric detail at 60fps? Even 90s CG was very high poly. Texture detail admittedly has very little to do with performance, but it sure takes up a lot of space.
> As a profesional 3D artist I came here to laugh at you.
Thanks, you've contributed a lot of meaning to the conversation. I'm speaking ironically of course
>>334510220
Having a college degree in 3D modeling and doing commissions hardly makes you a "professional".
You're not wrong, but quit calling yourself a professional.
If you go on twitter to post in such a manner that goes against professional conduct then you are not a goddamn professional.
>>334510626
>I have relatively simple, flat photoshop documents that are 100 MB or larger.
You do realize nobody uses PSDs in 3DS Max right? PSDs and bitmaps are always going to be huge because they are uncompressed but that kind of material is not viable for rendering. Nowadays you compress to DDS first, back in the day they used worse but still much smaller alternatives.
>>334510626
>Is that why modern hardware still can't render something like Toy Story in full geometric detail at 60fps? Even 90s CG was very high poly.
Modern hardware can't render those original models at 60 FPS but all of that is wasted detail in a way, they're not optimized in any way. I bet you never saw a wireframe of a CG model (protip, they're terrible since nobody makes them with optimizaton in mind).
>>334510676
>Having a college degree in 3D modeling and doing commissions hardly makes you a "professional".
I actually worked on a few games.Like Supreme Commander 2.
>>334511014
>Like Supreme Commander 2.
>>334511081
You do realize I didn't contribute to designing or progamming that game right?
I just modelled what the concept artists threw my way.
>>334511014
>>334511170
>Supreme Commander 2
I blame you for that one
>>334511014
Is your wife illuminate?
>>334511014
>You do realize nobody uses PSDs in 3DS Max right? PSDs and bitmaps are always going to be huge because they are uncompressed but that kind of material is not viable for rendering. Nowadays you compress to DDS first, back in the day they used worse but still much smaller alternatives.
Did you actually work in the 90s to know what they used? Please let me know if you did. Obviously uncompressed textures would never be used in a final product, but why would they work with optimization and compressed textures for what would only become pre-renders? Wouldn't the aim in a pre-render (which would basically be the aim for something like Toy Story, which is also ultimately pre-rendered) be in achieving the maximum quality since rendering speed and optimization is completely irrelevant?
It seems like you're comparing apples to oranges.
>Modern hardware can't render those original models at 60 FPS but all of that is wasted detail in a way, they're not optimized in any way. I bet you never saw a wireframe of a CG model (protip, they're terrible since nobody makes them with optimizaton in mind).
Read above. I don't think optimization is relevant when creating assets for a pre-render.
>>334511014
have you done the realtime models, or just the high poly bases? Have you had to jump through hoops for the game's engine, or was it straightforward?
I will never understand how these million dollar companies lose there own creations
I know the SSX team also lost all the ps2 games code
>>334506821
>This one and KH1 were actually recoded from scratch since they didn't even have the source code.
[citation needed]
>>334511170
We need a sacrifice. You fit the bill.
>>334510078
>All of the sets in FF9, in their fully rendered form, probably took up several terabytes
No.
They took up a shitload of space, I'm sure, but no.
>>334511325
I'm not that professional, so here's my ass speaking to you: even if you may ignore rendering speed, memory's not infinite, and all that texture stuff has to fit somewhere for the renderer to work. So you can't do huge textures.
Most of the time you do not completely ignore rendering speed, you just try to find a trade-off for sane rendering times. There's no sense in attempting something like Toy Story if rendering a frame takes a month.
With all that said, I'm under the impression that for non-realtime rendering material maps are more common, where properties of materials are defined, like how rough or smooth it is, how reflective, how opaque, instead of textures for their looks and colors.
>>334511325
>Did you actually work in the 90s to know what they used?
Honestly speaking, no I didn't work back then since I was still in high school at the time. But I do know how Maya and 3DS Max work and using PSD with them is out of question.
Assuming they rendered it in Maya like almost everyone did at the time they definitely couldn't have gone with PSD. Bitmaps at most but even that I doubt. You literally couldn't even feed PSD to Maya or 3DS Max until relatively recently, as in it wouldn't accept the format.
I assume they used TGA, which was standard for textures at the time and it is still considerably smaller than a raw bitmap.
>>334511590
It literally runs in Unity enigne for starters and the KH1 info was publicly made known by Squeenix themselves during 1.5 development, google it. As always it's the tripfag that's uninformed and retarded.
>>334511481
"Hey Jim, we need a new empty hard drive for project x"
"Format that and use it."
"Is there something in it?"
"Some old assets and code for game that was shipped years ago."
>>334511325
Not him but optimization was relevant to Pixar when I interned in their Cali studio. Every second of rendering time costs them a lot. This was back in TS2 era though.
>>334511857
Jim is a fucking idiot.
>>334511742
That makes a lot of sense, it obviously has to fit into memory to be rendered. But couldn't you have something where the source file is uncompressed and then the textures (or maps?) are compressed on the fly to fit into memory, allowing you to leave the source assets in as high detail as possible.
At any rate, I still suspect the source data for FF9 was many, many times larger than the final product, whereas starting with 6th gen and onwards, the source data is basically what is on the disc since they moved from prerendered asset rendering to realtime asset rendering
>>334511830
still [citation needed]. youre just spouting shit with no source here and hoping we cling to your words
>>334511968
pixar practically invented the modern cgi renderer
>>334512112
Enjoy being filtered for being retarded when it's the top result in google if you do put in minimum of effort.
Cancerous tripfags.
>>334512112
Hes right anon. Just fucking google it yourself you look retarded right now
>>334512098
Compressing takes processing power and you can't automate that process WHILE rendering. It just doesn't work that way.
>>334511590
>>334512112
>I cannot use Google
You are fucking retarded.
>>334512227
>>334512240
>>334512341
this is why neogaf is beating us
>>334512123
Squeenix CG studios actually rival Pixar.
They're pretty much Pixar of Japan.
Then there's Platige Image in Poland which also do some amazing CG work.
>>334512098
>I still suspect the source data for FF9 was many, many times larger than the final product
That may or may not be the case, really.
On a technical level it's very simple to generate gigabytes of bitmaps out of a couple MB of model and material data. I have no idea what they did in the case of FF9. I'm just saying, it's not as clear cut as you think. Especially in 3D rendering, the input can be so much smaller than the produced result.
Of course if they still downsized or otherwise compressed the images for the final product, the rendering output can and will be considerably larger than the final product. So you definitely have a point there.
>>334512086
That's what you get for hiring filthy gaijin.
>>334512396
>>334508206
oh im sorry man, i didnt mean to bully you. being a retard sounds like a challenge in this modern day and age and i respect you for facing the day to day in spite of your disadvantages. respek
>>334506714
This guy from a podcast, who worked for Capcom said that Japanese companies are notoriously poor at archiving. Hence, a ton of source material is lost.
>>334512123
Look up Renderman. That thing became the de facto standard for movie cgi renderers. Its origin is Pixar.
I'm not talking about the modelling software or modelling skills, although Pixar is pretty damn good in that regard too, I'm talking just about the renderer itself, the program that turns the 3D models and textures and stuff into images. Pixel invented a whole new pipeline to make that thing as parallel and fast as possible, which is why Renderman was such a big deal.
>>334511481
They didn't lose them. They didn't see any reason to keep them because HD remasters weren't even a thought back then. Once a game was done and shipped, it was overunless you were playing the Japanese versions of PS/2 FF games, in which case expect the International version a year later with extra bosses. The same used to happen with TV shows; even franchises as big as Star Trek used to throw out their old CG files once the show's run had ended. In a few rare cases there were people that saved some things, but this clearly wasn't one of those times.
>>334512123
I'm not surprised Pixar and Disney has been making waves with their particle and physics simulators since the early 90's. Wasn't Pixar the first studio to make and use a cloth physics simulator for their films?
>>334512403
Platige is carried by their talent, not technical prowess although they do still have that in spades.
>>334512098
It most definitely was bigger than final product, my entire point is that it wasn't anywhere near 1TB let alone multiple.
100GB HDDs at the time were actually best you could get.
I doubt it was anywhere more than 50GB though and that's assuming they kept the FMV assets there as well.
>>334512653
>notoriously poor at archiving
That says a lot when shit like ownership of IP can get lost in the west.
>>334511481
>get paid shit as a programer
>finish work
>change something in a code
>leave work and go find a new one
thats how capcom lost MTFramework
>>334512657
was meant to be a reply to >>334512403
Also, Ed Catmull, one of the Pixar founders, is quite well known among cgi producers, for being one of the inventors/discoverers of the Catmull-Rom spline, which is a fundamental piece of cgi nowadays. This is not the Pixar of Toystory, this is the Pixar that did the Genesis Effect in Star Trek II, very old school
>>334512452
>Of course if they still downsized or otherwise compressed the images for the final product, the rendering output can and will be considerably larger than the final product. So you definitely have a point there.
Is there any question regarding this when the entire game was 320x240 and still spanned 4 cds? I mean, I know there's a lot of overlap considering they needed to have space for new FMVs and the world data is essentially copypasted across all 4 disks (if it's anything like FF7/8, anyway), but the FMVs alone would have been originally rendered at a higher resolution than 320x240, as evidence by the fact that we apparently have 480p renders in the remaster.
Let's just make a simple example here, maybe you can help me imagine this. Take a single screen scene in the game with a reasonable amount of detail, let's say in a town, and let's say we render a 2000x2000 uncompressed bitmap from it. What takes up more space, that bitmap, or all of the assets that comprise the scene including their geometric, texture and lighting data?
>>334512739
That's like throwing out the Mona Lisa but instead keeping its 320 x 200 photo made by a webcam.
>>334512825
>since the early 90's
Try 1982.
>Reyes rendering is a computer software architecture used in 3D computer graphics to render photo-realistic images. It was developed in the mid-1980s by Loren Carpenter and Robert L. Cook at Lucasfilm's Computer Graphics Research Group, which is now Pixar. It was first used in 1982 to render images for the Genesis effect sequence in the movie Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan. Pixar's RenderMan is one implementation of the Reyes algorithm.
>>334511446
Sorry for replying to you late but I kinda lost your post among the others, anyway I only did unit models, so nothing high poly for that contract.
>>334511446
>>334513293
Oh and no I didn't have to jump through any hoops, we had a simple export plugin for Max that exported the models readily for the game. Rest was programmers job.
Becuas they're looking for a quick buck and hiring artists to redo background in high-res/3D would be very expensive.
>>334513293
works for me. I'm more of a low poly person anyway. Loving that shit so much. NDS is one of my favorite platforms for a reason ... and you probably loathe the idea of working with it for the same reason. That's not a polygon budget, that's a few polygon coins, you got on that machine
>>334513172
It's stupid looking back, but that's just how things were. Back in the day if someone wanted to see an old classic with a new coat of paint, they'd remake it entirely. Instead now we get half-assed upscales and people actually complain about proper remakes.
>>334511170
>Implying your blood won't sate our rage
I think one thing we don't appreciate is how expensive / space consuming storage hardware used to be. A lot of game developers would simply delete their data once a game went gold because without the ability to patch games were as printed forever. It was more cost efficient to reuse storage rather than purchase new memory and as many anon have mentioned game assets are initially much larger than when they're compressed for the final product.
Square Soft aren't the only guys who did this; most Japanese devs did. It's why the backgrounds in the RE1 HD release were so shit. They had to be reworked from the retail edition.
Pic related; a late 80s 1gb hard drive.
>>334513468
Never worked on a NDS game nor do I ever want to. I know some people enjoy squeezing as much detail as possible into 256x256 texture or sometimes even 128x128 or 64x64 for a super low poly model but that's not something I'd personally enjoy.
I make my own textures by the way, I was actually surprised how many modellers don't especially in western countries.
I'll never be able to wrap my head around companies losing original source code/assets. Why is this shit not kept in a safe deposit box and moved to new digital storage as needed every few years?
>>334508225
>>334513524
I don't think it's his fault. Fucking GPG went down trying to kickstart a barbarian something something game. They clearly didn't know what the fuck they were doing.
I did enjoy Space Siege for 2 hours before it became stale as fuck though.
>>334513753
kill yourself my man
>>334513050
>Let's just make a simple example here
That image would be around 12MB. That's quite a bit of space you got there. Certainly plenty for the models, no idea about the textures. Keep in mind that you can re-use textures and models across renders.
>lighting data
For the record, that stuff is tiny. We're talking bytes, not even kilobytes. Not saying it would have much of an impact in that specific example. Just in general, 3d data can be crazy small. You don't need to store lightmaps or anything. Just locations, color, type and direction (optional) of the involved light sources.
>>334513736
>>334508225
Holy shit he showed you
>>334513757
I wasn't even an employee, I was a contractor.
>>334513730
Because they didn't feel the need to since back then, after a game was launched, it could neither be patched nor modified. So they threw stuff away to save once-expensive sotrage space.
>>334513898
Like an assassin!
>>334513736
there's no fucking way this is based on that thumbnail
>>334513730
Storage cost money.
Moving storage cost money.
>>334513718
modern work seems to be all material maps, or sloppily edited photos, if they're trying to be fancy. I can imagine a lot of 3D modellers consider the 2D part to be a chore, a mind numbing necessity before they can go back to doing the real work, the 3D models.
There's a certain beauty in handmade textures though. My favorite example is Magic Carpet's water. Bit of an old school thing, but look at it. The water surface has hand drawn swirls and stuff, to give that whole game a consistent and unique look
They could have remade the assets but that would have required a) effort b) several HUNDREDS of dollars
>tfw you dig up some of your literally ancient models and they are shit
>>334514192
Fun fact, CD Projekt Red modellers hated UV mapping so much that one of them wrote a tool that let you paint over models in real time and automatically mapped them, and very precisely too. Almost entirety of Witcher 1 was textured like that actually.
>>334513860
Or he found the original image.
>>334514493
>several HUNDREDS of dollars
Considering inflation, it would have cost more to make than the original game did
>>334514518
part of the motivation behind Carmack's Megatexture was skipping the annoying UV bits. The engine contained in-engine painting tools like you describe
>>334514518
That's fucking sick.
3D noob here, I despise UV mapping
>>334514556
That's not how inflation works unless you're only looking at the number instead of the worth.
>>334514493
I don't think you understand the effort involved in remaking assets.
>>334514556
Are you saying it was cheaper back then to hire an entire team to make a big game from scratch than it is to hire an artist to remake a handful of assets today
>>334514676
Megatexturing is the future once HDD space stops being an issue. It's much more memory efficient as well since you load one big texture and don't have to swap shit out constantly.
>>334514769
Less than what it was to make them originally, I'm pretty sure. The backgrounds aren't so intricate masterpieces that they couldn't spare a background artist to remake them.
>>334512396
>Blames others because he doesn't know how to google
More like you are the reason neofag is beating us
>>334514968
>make claim
>provide no source
>look it up, f-faggot
Cunt.
>>334514704
>3D noob here, I despise UV mapping
Who doesn't.
It's the most boring part since it's the part where you're not creating "art" so to speak.
With a model you give your art shape, with a texture you give it detail. With UV mapping you want to kill yourself due to how boring it is.
>>334514929
>Megatexturing is the future once HDD space stops being an issue
megatexture was never about hdd space, or limited by it
>and don't have to swap shit out constantly.
megatexture RELIES on shit being swapped out constantly. That's a key aspect of how it works. The texture is too big to fit into vram at once, so the gpu driver resorts to swapping. Only, the engine does not have to do it manually, and can instead rely on kernel and driver to do it right. Works pretty well, until the driver's shit. Then you'll see very late pop-in. You probably remember which cards suffered from that ...
>>334514774
>a handful
They'd have to remake the whole game, no? Why would they be limited to just a handful?
You don't need a concept artist anymore since the original would be your new concept, but I mean, where do you think the bulk of production costs lie?
>>334514929
Will storage spece ever stop being a problem though? As games evolve, the need for a greater graphical fidelity will imply heavier megatextures, so they will always stay a relative pain in the ass.
>>334508876
If the image is essentially exactly the same, just higher resolution, it shouldn't matter.
>>334515264
>They'd have to remake the whole game, no?
Why would they have to remake the entire game just to change some assets?
>>334515298
>Will storage spece ever stop being a problem though?
it stopped a while back. So much that modern devs are just pissing away space now with uncompressed audio or other uncompressed static streaming assets, just because they can fill a disc with it
>>334515259
>megatexture was never about hdd space, or limited by it
But it is, megatextures are massive.
>megatexture RELIES on shit being swapped out constantly
But they aren't swapped out constantly, you're thinking of loading parts of it. RAGE literally had only 4 textures for the entire game.
It and New Order are also among the only 720p 60 FPS games on PS3.
>>334515427
because the source of the game, including its engine and game logic, is gone. You'd have to reverse engineer the hell out of it, or rewrite it anew, probably including a bunch of game designers to balance the re-invented mechanics
>>334514956
Several hundred dollars would probably cover a week's work for an entry level artist. Just because you have something in front of it doesn't mean that it's a piece of cake to remake perfectly. You'd at least need a small team and a relatively substantial budget to fund the process; otherwise they'd be remaking everything and charging full price rather than just putting ports out.
>>334515264
>where do you think the bulk of production costs lie
Hookers and coke, if iD Software is to be believed.
>>334515427
>>334515583
FF9 was rewritten from scratch, just saying. They even updated it while they were at it, for example you no longer need to check which NPCs you can play Tetra Battle with, they are automatically marked.
>>334515570
>you're thinking of loading parts of it
which is handled through the swapping means of the os or driver, that's the key feature there. In other games the engine needs to do manual texture management, which is complicated and time consuming. Due to megatexture, the whole memory management is automated
>>334515427
>some assets
Please explain which assets wouldn't need to be changed?
>music, perhaps
>scenario
>script
Everything else would have to be remade since none of the source material exists. I can't magically create a 1080p image from a 240p image. Everything in that image would need to be remade.
>>334515583
>You'd have to reverse engineer the hell out of it
Oh no!They already had to do it to add the improvements in the first place you know
>>334515130
>I-I CANT DO ANYTHING FOR MYSELF YOU MUST SPOON FEED ME
You're a literal fucking child
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=square+enix+lost+kingdom+hearts+source+code
Now, in order to open a link (that right there is a link, it takes you to another website) you have to CLICK it. See that device in your hand? It's called a mouse. Push the leftmost button down while that little white icon that moves around on your screen is over said link, and it will move you to a new website. Cool, huh?
Fucking faggot.
>>334515480
>>334515298
http://www.extremetech.com/gaming/169559-the-ps4-is-so-powerful-that-killzone-shadow-fall-was-originally-290gb
Download speeds are still a factor.
>>334515716
>FF9 was rewritten from scratch, just saying
it probably wasn't cheap, just saying.
>>334515259
>megatexture was never about hdd space, or limited by it
>or limited by it
The source textures of RAGE were over 1 Terabyte, they were heavily downsampled for release
>>334515717
My point was that you don't have to constantly swap out hundreds of textures and clog up the entire memory pipeline, megatextures are simply free of this problem.
What they aren't free of is the gargantuan filesizes.
>>334514968
>>334512341
>>334511830
>>334506821
I looked up this claim on google and the only thing I could find that was remotely close to what you are suggesting was a venturebeat interview:
>http://venturebeat.com/2016/03/06/the-challenges-of-porting-final-fantasy-ix-to-android-and-ios/
>If we don’t have the original programs, we have to begin coding from scratch, which is like making a brand new game … well, maybe not that far, but it would be far more voluminous and prone to more bugs. It’s the same with graphic data; if the original exists, we could use it as-is, or focus the work on improving the quality. But if it doesn’t exist, we have no choice but to create it, and that means more work.
In no way is Sakamoto implying they developed the game from scratch.
also pointing out it runs in Unity only supports the idea that they had the original C code for the game (square used PsyQ sdk for PSX development). As they've done with previous ports to mobile, they use Unity engine because it allows for you to use existing/legacy C code as a plugin in the engine with little to no change.
They likely only had to change rendering code, which they've probably already done on previous mobile ports, meaning they just copied the existing code into a plugin and tweaked from there using their already-made unity plugin for rendering changes.
So now can we stop repeating this unsubstantiated claim and move on with our lives?
>>334514556
This. Not so cheap nor easy to touch those cool prerendered backgrounds. I don't think they will ever be "remastered" in future releases of older FF games.
>>334515863
you mean we'll get an HD re-release? That'd be cool
>>334515908
Not FF9, but KH1 was redone from scratch by literally reverse engineering PS2 disc.
http://www.siliconera.com/2013/06/25/kingdom-hearts-1-data-is-lost-square-had-to-recreate-everything-for-hd/
It's also why the HD version has a few nuances that differ it from original like triangle commands for special attacks like Ragnarok and so on.
>>334511857
Said no one ever. Even tiny companies have more sense that that. Here's how it really went:
"Hey Jim, we need pre-rendered backgrounds but they need to fit on the disc and can't look too clean because we're putting them behind blocky year 2000 polygons."
"Okay here are the backgrounds." *Deletes the original renderings*
>>334516016
It's just too expensive. There's a reason FF7R is being split into multiple games, and that's because a game with the scope and variety that FF7 has, asset wise, would probably be the most expensive game ever made in 2016. It was easily the most expensive game ever made in 1997.
Speaking of id Sofware and RAGE, Romero is making a new FPS.
>>334516172
actually, disk re-use has been mentioned frequently as the cause of loss of assets
>>334516212
They definitely put a fuckton of money into it, that I can tell you. It also had an insane (for a videogame back then) marketing campaign.
They knew that it had to succeed.
>>334516297
>disk re-use has been mentioned frequently as the cause of loss of assets
What do you think "disk reuse" implies?
>>334516262
that's bitchin'
>>334516262
You won't make me your bitch, Romero. Fuck off back to your gas stations or whatever.
![RTxRcES[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/vRhN6Pr.jpg "RTxRcES[1].jpg")
When
>>334516374
exactly what >>334511857 said. Only without the second half of it.
>>334511590
https://www.vg247.com/2013/06/27/kingdom-hearts-original-assets-lost/
http://www.siliconera.com/2013/06/25/kingdom-hearts-1-data-is-lost-square-had-to-recreate-everything-for-hd/
>>334516064
I wouldn't be suprised. Imagine if RAGE had improved draw/detail distance and uncompressed textures, the game would look fucking amazing.
![rOq65U5[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/HCuUp6H.jpg "rOq65U5[1].jpg")
>>334516442
>>334516442
>>334516563
Read the thread, never. A few static JPGs are not original assets, even though to a tech illiterate guy like you it may seem like they are.
>>334516297
We're talking about disks not discs.
>>334516442
>>334516563
It doesn't do any good if we only have some of them and not every single one
>>334516505
So writing over existing data instead of formatting it first?
>>334516563
FFIX was comfy as fuck
>>334516637
indeed, we are
![EabnrnJ[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cAbWSNK.jpg "EabnrnJ[1].jpg")
>>334516563
>>334516731
>comfy
There's that word again
>>334516424
Daikatana suffered because he didn't have access to id Software, it was literally made by a fresh out of high school and college literally whos with no experience. He also had budget problems.
I want to believe he will deliver, especailly seeing how terrible D44M is.
>>334516661
makes no difference
![PRm7E2W[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/E4lHYVr.jpg "PRm7E2W[1].jpg")
>>334516763
>>334516773
Do you prefer comfortable? I explicitly remember that kitchen from when I first played the game though.
>>334516642
>100% shitty is better than 50% shitty
Well I guess 100% has consistency going for it
![KI6926v[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/62iX1a7.jpg "KI6926v[1].jpg")
>>334516874
>>334516805
I don't get the Daikatana hate, really. Sure, not a perfect game, shit happens. Developer missed the mark, out of hubris, lack of resources, I don't know, or care. Fact is, Romero has proven he knows his shit. Just because he had a fluke I'm supposed to dismiss everything else he did? no way.
>>334516935
That's the thing though. Ever play FF Type 0 HD? Having some high quality assets and some shitty ones make a game look worse overall due to a lack of consistency.
>>334516731
>comfy
>Everywhere you visit gets eaten
>>334513730
Digital storage space was fucking expensive until the last 5-10 years.
![X2R78OO[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/1Sp81mv.jpg "X2R78OO[1].jpg")
>>334516960
>>334516935
50% shitty leads to inconsistent visuals, which, indeed, is a bad thing
>>334516883
Kitchens aren't particularly comfortable to me. I have been in many of them. Perhaps I haven't been in the right ones? Nothing about that kitchen seems overly comfortable
>>334515794
>WHAAAAAAAAA I HAVE TO PROVE MY STATEMENTS
>>334516541
KH1 != FF9 which is the lovely discussion we're having here.
The FF9 port was not made from scratch and there is absolutely nothing suggesting it was so if people would stop repeating that claim that'd be great.
>>334516156
I wonder how much of that might be a matter of lost in translation, since the only source is a interview with nomura speaking in japanese through a translater, but yeah I take your point. Either way, nothing to suggest FF9's port experienced a similar fate.
>>334517085
>inconsistent visuals, which, indeed, is a bad thing
I'm aware but I don't see how that's actually worse than everything looking plain bad instead
![Du48mZR[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/PyBtMmY.jpg "Du48mZR[1].jpg")
>>334517074
>>334517003
Reminder Carmack actively sabotaged Quake
>>334506714
Yes, three in a row.
SE even had a "only back it up on paper!" rule for a long time. They also required third parties outside of Japan to fax them code.
>>334516935
Only like 5% of the total backgrounds have a single hi-res render. That would be awful to jump back and forth from that.
>>334517210
Play emulated Type-0
Then play Type-0 HD
Look how fucking terrible Type-0 HD looks in comparison due to 0 consistency.
>>334517210
>but I don't see how that's actually worse than everything looking plain bad instead
You're on your own with that one. Two people told you why.
>>334508791
Some of them actually do have high res assets. On disc!
But having a mix would look weird.
![VR8SYKC[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/wvdg9Bv.jpg "VR8SYKC[1].jpg")
>>334517213
>>334517216
He did? I only remember him forcing Quake 3 to go the multiplayer only route.
Then again, I'm not too familiar with the story.
>>334506363
Can someone enlighten me on why people are buying a game that can be easily emulatable?
From what I see in here they even lost the original CGs and couldn't bother to make new HD ones. What's the purpose then, other than resolution?
>>334517227
I wonder if anyone faxed them ascii dick pics.
>>334517414
Because it emulates like shit and the port actually improves issues like loading times.
>>334517391
Read Masters of Doom.
Carmack was constantly sabotaging Romero's vision for Quake.
Romero wanted a revolutionary new IP game, Carmack wanted a "safe" product in the vein of Doom for quick buck.
Romero hated how he was being creatively held back by Carmack and basically stopped giving a fuck about work and then Carmack used it as an excuse to cockblock him and later force him to leave the company.
>>334517504
>loading times
there better be none. Not brief ones, none
>>334517414
No loading times
No input lag (the impress the nobles minigame is a pain on emulation due to input lag introduced by emulation)
New character models (for example you can actually tell Freya is a rat now), not just old models rendered in high res, actual new models.
High speed mode
Some convenience features such as NPCs whom you can battle in Tetra Master actually being marked instead of having to run up to each and every one to see if you can.
>>334517780
>>334517414
Also mouse support is now a thing. In fact, its the only FF game on PC to feature mouse support.
>>334517319
>Two people told you why.
They didn't though, they simply stated that inconsistency is worse just because and cited Type-0 HD as an example.
I understand that inconsistency is bad but at least you get some parts that look decent.
>>334517878
Going back and forth between good looking and bad looking is jarring and much worse on players.
Romero's new company.
http://www.shacknews.com/article/94156/what-is-hoxar-inc-apparently-john-romero-knows
Romero saying his name game is a PC-only FPS.
https://twitter.com/romero/status/721093845161783297
Some info on it:
http://www.geek.com/games/john-romero-claims-his-new-shooter-will-be-unlike-any-other-1645625/
>>334517878
>I understand that inconsistency is bad
no, you don't
>but at least you get some parts that look decent
exhibit a
>>334517780
i tried out that high speed mode crap, when I got into a battle everyone had trance activated and it was always their turn. I just wanted turns to come faster.
>>334517878
That's like saying you'd rather have a game that fluctuates between 30 and 60 than just a stable 30 fps
>>334517983
>Going back and forth between good looking and bad looking is jarring
True
>and much worse on players.
Well not that much
To be honest from how you hyped it I expected the bad textures to look worse
>>334518063
>no, you don't
ok you got me
I actually think inconsistency is good
Daily reminder that these threads are popping up because the old FF games are being released on iPad and now its IX. Last time it was FF7.
>>334518385
careful, some people might actually enjoy that. Meanwhile the mix of hd and sd assets is purely artistic, without much impact on actual gameplay
>>334518396
>>334518396
>I actually think inconsistency is good
False dichotomies for $500, Alex
>>334518509
Some poeple also enjoy pooped on. Those people have incorrect opinions.
>>334508312
It's literally just the .iso file ripped from the PS1 disc being played on the PS3.
>>334518509
Not him but I'd rather lock something to 30 than have it fluctuate constantly between 30 and 60.
Case in point - Arkham Knight.
I locked it at 30 just to save myself a headache.
>>334506363
Maybe the old files are unusable or something. Happened in toy story 3 where they couldn't open the toy story 2 files and had to remodel everything,
>>334518690
Yeah, basically what >>334518623 said.
>>334510078
>>334510626
>>334511325
>>334511830
3D designer here, the other 3D guy is right, the assets used for making the pre-rendered stuff in FF9 took basically no space at all.
All the 3D assets used for making every single scene and video for FFIX could have easily fit on a single CD.
Also Square Enix used SoftImage, Maya wasn't even industry standard back then.
>>334518578
That's just 100% bad
>>334518613
Should've gone for the sarcasm category instead. I don't know what else you except me to reply to that though.
>>334518925
>basically no space at all
>easily fit on a single CD
One of these things is not like the other. It's still fairly efficient for the data it holds, but "no space at all" is a very 2016 view of the situation
>>334519032
>I don't know what else you except me to reply to that though
not sarcasm, or even a response. You thinking about what you said would have been a good start, perhaps, but it seems that's really a weak point of yours. At least you're consistent in that regard.
>>334519361
"I think x"
"lol no you don't"
>not sarcasm, or even a response.
You're right though, I already regret not ignoring the bait.
>>334519517
two people independently called out your position, with the same reasoning, no less. If that didn't make you think, nothing will.
>lol no you don't
I used your own words to prove my statement
>bait
It's a coordinated effort by anons around the world to rile you up. Better watch your step. Or maybe it's just some random idiot on the other end of the internet pointing out your statements were inconsistent. Though we established already you got a problem with (in)consistency. So the conspiracy it is.
>>334513708
that's not the reason. storage is and has always been one of the cheapest components of any IT operation, and you wouldn't just leave your archives on hard drives anyway, you'd have put them on nice, cheap tape. it's only relatively recent (i'd say around late 90s) that hard drives became the overall most efficient archival storage medium.
the reason shit gets lost is usually human error. the industry has a high turnover rate, and each new guy cares significantly less about the stuff that was there before he showed up, and care even less about how hard they make the job for the next guy so don't organize things as well as they could or should, which sets things up to get missed
unlike the rest of the software industry, there's no procedural safeguards against worker apathy because the people in charge aren't engineering types (most are from marketing). they largely don't understand that a problem even exists, let alone how to deal with it. the people that work in games have relatively little concept of best practices because their mentality is that it's "just games" and nobody back then thought they'd be able to resell 20 year old games for millions of dollars
and it wasn't that long ago that games in production had to be scrapped or significantly reworked because an HD failure or a building fire destroyed the single copy of source code they were working from. still happens to indies all the time
>>334519890
>and it wasn't that long ago that games in production had to be scrapped or significantly reworked because an HD failure or a building fire destroyed the single copy of source code they were working from. still happens to indies all the time
Unfortunately some of them still make it. Damn flight tickets, gasoline, and matches are getting expensive.
>>334519849
>I used your own words to prove my statement
What, the "they didn't" part? That's not proof anyway. Up to that point nobody actually said why the inconsistency was so bad that it outweighed the good parts, they just said that it did. Even now, the best explanation I've got is "it's jarring" and I'm still skeptical although not entirely opposed to believing that's enough to sour the whole thing.
>It's a coordinated effort by anons around the world to rile you up.
I think this is one of those false dichotomies I've heard about
>your statements were inconsistent
Saying "I understand that inconsistency is bad" doesn't mean I think it's necessarily enough to make things overall worse. Of course it's bad, but is it really invariably worse than alternative of having everything be shitty in general?
>>334520490
>I think this is one of those false dichotomies I've heard about
You were the one that said it was bait
>but is it really invariably worse than alternative of having everything be shitty in general?
yes. If the material is very similar, but just different enough to be noticeable, the result looks amateurish, like something pieced together from scraps. The effect is extra bad if the original quality has a relatively high quality. It's the equivalent of having an old music album with mono sound, that occasionally randomly switches to stereo. You'd call the store and complain about the glitches. All mono, or all stereo, and you'd not notice, or care.
If the difference is vast (which would not be the case here, but just mentioned for the sake of it), the resulting product would look not like one, but two, that have been merged in some unholy union. The transition from bad to good would be about as bad a context change as alt-tabbing between games.
>>334521230
>the original quality has a relatively high quality
the original material
>You'd call the store
fuck me. No store for the old album, that comparison goes out the window, but the point is that the switch in quality makes it feel glitchy, wrong. It emphasizes the lack of quality in the weaker parts, and it emphasizes that the high quality is not available consistently, that there are weaker parts to begin with. That's the big problem.
>>334519136
Are you seriously implying that Square Enix would have problems affording a single CD for storing this data in 1999
>>334521230
>If the material is very similar, but just different enough to be noticeable, the result looks amateurish, like something pieced together from scraps.
The result looks amateurish anyway if everything is bad. Regardless, gotta say this reminds me of the FFIX PC port where the models are relatively high quality while the backgrounds are a blurry mess.
>It's the equivalent of having an old music album with mono sound, that occasionally randomly switches to stereo.
That's not really a good comparison, it's not like the good textures randomly turn into bad ones. It would be more like the vocals being the only thing in stereo... which wouldn't really be a problem anyway. Maybe more like the vocals sounding crisp and clean while the rest of the music sounds like it's played by an old gramophone. Even that could be kinda cool actually.
>>334522039
Dude, they were selling games for money, that company was desperate for cash
>>334522202
>The result looks amateurish anyway if everything is bad
FF9 looks amateurish, you heard it here first.
>it's not like the good textures randomly turn into bad ones
Yes, that is exactly what happens. From one scene to the other, the background quality would change.
>>334508225
But the assest WERE HD you nigger. They downgraded them for PSX. See those few glorious FF9 HD pics that are left. This is what we could have had if they didn't lose most of them
>>334522370
>FF9 looks amateurish, you heard it here first.
It didn't at the time and that's what matters. Now? Can't say I can admire that blurry background against the crisp models.
>Yes, that is exactly what happens. From one scene to the other, the background quality would change.
I mean the same texture flickering between good and bad like the music in the comparison would be doing.
