explain why "non-linear" level design is good when all it comes down to is backtracking until you've checked every possible route.
hard mode: find the chance of getting the item before running into the boss
>>333683203
Because it allows players to explore and make mistakes and have unique experiences in a way that linearity doesn't.
Non-linear level design isn't good.
Linear level design isn't bad.
These are just types of level design. A good level is a good level. Doom and HL2 are both great games with great level design.
the real problem is open world and how they are being forced into games nowadays.
every part of the game suffers in quality to accommodate such a large environment.
Because it's actually a game rather than a fucking barely interactive on-rails movie, you dumbshit nugamer millennial.
Go play your Half Life and Halo linear garbage.
>>333683334
but why is that fun? backtracking isn't fun. having to reload and lose 20 minutes of my time because I accidentally went to the boss instead of the item isn't fun. are there really people who think that's fun?
I guess it would be find as long as there is a item that locks the boss until the player wants to fight him, so exploration doesn't get interrupted or removed completely from the player's hands.
>>333683778
>barely interactive
you're right. we should have more QTEs, you dumbshit nugamer millennial.
Go play your Uncharted 4 and The Order
>>333683849
>hey I should be able to explore
>oh yeah but let me know when I find something I don't want to find
here let me go get a hallway simulator for you
>>333683849
having a boss or a cutscene that locks out an area for a time/permanent is not fine
getting to a boss before finding the path that has a chest with a weapon upgrade that's purchasable in the next town is unfortunate but still fine
You don't lose much by progressing without that item except for gold/whatever the currency is
>>333684602
>2 hallways side by side
>>333683203
if there's only one correct route, that's still linear design. useless time-wasting dead ends can be added to either linear or non-linear maps and has nothing to do with the design philosophy. dumbass
>>333683203
It's only bad if there's only one way to get to the end. If multiple paths end up giving you multiple ways to get to the goal then I see no issue.
>>333684593
you still haven't explained why backtracking is supposed to be fun yet
People have a natural instinct to explore. We map out cave systems and shit despite it having no practical purpose whatsoever.
If you don't like nonlinear exploration, you're not really human.
>>333683203
There is a 50% chance you will take route C before route B.
>>333683203
I dont think you understand what non-linear design implies
>>333685020
In Diablo 3 I felt a need to map out every floor of a dungeon even when I knew I would get nothing useful anywhere in it. It was really damn boring.
>>333684602
>start walking down hallway
>"huh I've been going this way for a while, the boss must be ahead"
>turn around so you don't accidentally get locked out
>find the boss a different way
>have to reload and backtrack to where you turned around the first time
why
is
this
fun?
The problem is a lot of devs don't know how to create level flow or how to properly plan out a non-linear structure. Non-linear can be one of two things; multiple paths to achieve one goal, or multiple paths to achieve separate goals. And "paths" does not necessarily mean "hallway A, B, C...", paths can be presented through buildings in a city, doorways to separate areas, etc. Planning a non-linear structure can be as easy as doodling on some paper, marking points of importance, and reworking the design as you build the structure. That's something I've done before back in fucking high school to pass the time in class, and I made a complete map in Doom from that doodle. Is it the best non-linear map ever? Hell no, but I understood the premise enough to make a competent design.
Pic related is a couple of well designed non-linear Doom maps, because I know the games well. Sewers is probably the weakest of the four, but it's still a good map.
>>333683203
>hard mode: find the chance of getting the item before running into the boss
Did you actually work this one out op, or is that a bait question like the goat problem?
I worked it out as 5/14 possible order choices hit the item before the boss.
>>333683203
>Go down B before C
>Trigger boss fight
>Can't go back to C to get the item
>Item is now lost forever
>>333684949
How do you explain how something is supposed to be fun? It either is or it isn't. Some people think its fun to shove dragon shaped dildos as big as coke cans up their asses but they would never be able to explain to me how its fun it sounds horrible.
>>333685198
it's only fun if you actually want a dungeon and exploration. people who want to just skip the world and just fight won't enjoy it
>>333685198
If a level is actually well designed the progression path should be made distinctive and clear from the side paths. Do you actually pay attention to your surroundings or do you just flip a coin when you come across any split path?
Level design isn't just about "how many paths can we give the player." It's about use of vertical and proper space, respect to building architecture and coherency, pacing, and general area aesthetics.
>>333685020
exploring in a game isn't the same as exploring in real life. exploring your hotel when you go on vacation is fun because you don't know what you'll find. in a game you know that every path was either designed to have something at the end, or as a decoy to make it harder to find the stuff in the other paths. it stops being about curiosity and becomes about clearing a place out and not being able to leave until you're sure you didn't miss anything.
>>333683203
>explain why "non-linear" level design is good
it's called "exploration" you faggot.
exploring a complex structure and figuring out a way through its maze-like corridors is interesting.
walking down a hallway isn't.
>>333683203
games should use procedurally generated maps at runtime and everyone's experience should be unique. anything less is cheap.
>>333683334
First post nails it as usual.
>>333686037
Procedurally generated maps are almost universally shit.
>>333686261
your face is universally shit
>>333686037
The only times procedurally generated maps are good is when it's making a random layout from hand-crafted rooms or if it's making an entire world like Dorf or Minecraft. Usually, if the level designer isn't a complete retard or novice, a handcrafted level with some thought put into it will always out-shine generated maps, and levels that are made by skilled designers for multiple days or even weeks will be like a holy grail next to a randomly generated jug with a sideways handle and a hole near the bottom.
>>333686801
I find that Warframe works pretty good in this regard
What you posted isn't non-linear. It's linear with two optional side paths that lead to nowhere. It still has one entrance and one exit and only one way to go between them.
>>333685320
This is non-linear. There is one entrance and one exit (usually) but many different ways to get between them that aren't just branches with no outlet. It challenges you to explore it to find what you need to move forward.
>>333685385
>game lets you go back
>take like ten minutes backtracking to get to the chest
>Chest contained a Potion
>>333683203
I don't really have a problem with this as long as there's like a huge boss gate or a save point or something before the boss to let you know it's ahead
You only notice it when it's implemented poorly. In good games there's something interesting there and you don't feel obligated to do it.
>>333685184
>I felt a need
>it was really damn boring
Sounds like a (You) problem.
>>333688629
those examples can all be abstracted to the op situation. there's one end point and many side points that you have to check before you can finish.
>>333683536
This.
But HL2 has shit level design
