Was he right?
No not really
>>332407109
Yeas, really.
Our standards for stories in porn are honestly too low.
>>332407281
Some games use plot as a way to keep the player engaged, in some plot is entirely the focus
it entirely depends on what kind of game you're making, surely someone like carmack should know that
Yes but he is still a tard that is more interested in showing off his engines rather than gameplay itself.
>>332407391
This. A game, or any piece of entertainment for that matter, simply needs to be engaging. This can be achieved through a variety of means. Some games have awesome gameplay, some have great stories, blahblah.
>>332406837
Back then, until 1993 he was. And even so, there was shit like Zork to prove him wrong.
Now, not he's wrong and I bet he'd admit it himself. After all, they hired renown sci fi writers for Doom 3.
>>332407595
>Matt Costello
Well, somewhat renown
>tfw some hentai has more interesting plot than most video games and movies
Pretty much, though more for the older generation that grew up with the arcades.
>>332406837
>yfw this is what made Romero quit.
>>332406837
depends on the genre; for most genres (FPS, RTS, Platformer, etc) it's probably true, but for some it's clearly not (notably RPG and Adventure/Point'n'Click).
people who answer otherwise are just shitposting and rabblerousing.
>>332406837
Kind of. I mean, a game with a shitty story but great graphics and gameplay can be good, a game with a great story but shitty gameplay(shitty as in shitty to play, and not easy/simple) won't be fun.
>>332406837
I play games for the same reasons that I watch movies or TV shows: for the experience and the entertainment. And in my opinion, a good story can add just as much to the entertainment as good gameplay.
looks like this guy never played undertale
Old people are so out of touch with gamers of today. Of course they still see video games as blips and bloops on a tv screen but to us it is an immersive world because we have imagination.
actions are nothing without reasons
Story can be great but I think he's basically correct.
Some developers over-emphasize story and don't give enough attention to gameplay.
Some "games" don't even have gameplay.
But there's no such thing as putting too much time or effort into gameplay.
>>332406837
Depends on the game. If it's like Mario games, then any story is optional or minimal. If it is RPG or something that requires some story, then story is just as important as the other elements of the game.
Name a game with a story on par with that of a great novel.Here comes the bat-shit crazy web shit
>>332408328
Weeb shit.
Well I'll just go then.
>>332406837
He doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about since he never made any game with a story.
>>332408328
Undertale.
>>332406837
Yes. Gameplay is imperative to games, it is what makes it a game. A story is almost irrelevant, it exists only to provide context for the gameplay. At best you could consider it icing on the cake.
If you play games for story you should just read a fucking book, if for no other reason than books, and movies too, are generally a lot better written than even the best written games.
>>332408328
that's entirely subjective.
what even is a "great novel"?
besides isn't writing style what defines good literature, rather than story?
>>332408328
I dunno about games on par with good novels, but there are plenty of games with stories as good as movies or TV shows.
The Last of Us, for example, is infinitely more engaging with its plot and characters than The Walking Dead.
>inb4 lol they're both zombie shit you idiot
>>332408583
Okay. Name another one.
I'm struggling.
>>332408676
Baldur's Gate series.
>>332406837
depends on the game
a shootan like doom, yea
an RPG needs a bit of story for you to fall in love with it
>>332407387
No matter how many videos you can find
the pipes never get fixed
>>332408328
Planescape Torment
>>332406837
Yes.
A good story is nice to have in a video game, but it doesn't make or break a good game. Engaging and challenging gameplay is most important, followed by music, sound effects and graphics. Story is dead last.
FOR MANY GAMES HE IS CORRECT AS GAMES HAVE A HISTORY OF MECHANICS OVER STORY
FOR OTHER GAMES HE IS INCORRECT
WHAT A STUPID QUESTION HOW ARE YOU NOT ABLE TO THINK THIS ONE THROUGH IT TOOK ME LIKE 2 SECONDS WHAT INPUT ARE YOU EXPECTING PEOPLE TO GIVE YOU IN THIS THREAD DO YOU JUST WANT PEOPLE TO VALIDATE YOUR "HE'S WRONG BECAUSE STORY IS SO IMPORTANT" OR "HE'S RIGHT BECAUSE STORY NEVER MATTERS" OPINION? THAT IS A DUMB FUCKING OPINION YOU ABSOLUTIST FUCK GO AWAY GO AWAY GO AWAY
>>332408654
is it bad i just like snorted at my desk at work?
that image should not have been that funny
>>332408790
funny considering he publicly apologized for making rage console first.
Porn used to have stories though, even if they were utter shit.
Now it's just context-less scenes of people fucking.
gameplay > sound > grafix > story
>>332406837
Yes, games are about GAME play. If you want a detailed story or cinematic experience, go watch a movie or read a book. We have a media for almost every different aspect of entertainment, we don't need to merge them all into one big conglomerate.
>>332408935
This. Do people replay Super Mario World, or Final Fantasy IV more often? It's not that FF IV, and games like it aren't great. But a heavy reliance on story, makes it more of a pain to replay when that's the main factor. At the end of the day, you PLAY video games, not WATCH them. Video games are a unique medium because of that.
>>332409003
The Japanese at least still do that. Hell I've seen a small resurgence of Western at least trying to have some of that.
>>332406837
When was the last time that Carmack made a good game?
>>332408975
>funny considering he publicly apologized for making rage console first.
He did no such thing.
He apologized for the issues with Rage on release but he also very specifically said this is not a vindication for PC first development as it's simply not a viable business model for large development budgets. If I recall correctly he actually blamed the Rage issues on the video card manufacturers for some reason.
>>332408583
triggered
Yes.
Dwarf Fortress is the best example for this.
>carmack
>2016
why would anyone take him serious these days? he hasnt made anything thats at least a 7/10 in like a fucking decade or even more.
>>332409310
quake 3 arena was really good. I still play it with friends every once in a while.
>>332406837
Depends on the genre. To keep things short, pushing a constant narrative in something like Doom would only drag it down. The whole point of a role-playing game is to role play, so setting and story are hugely important.
Though often stories in porn are just a distraction from what you want, there's plenty of fetish shit in which context is everything. Similarly, a dynamic story isn't always necessary (sometimes a detriment, even), but sometimes it serves to make a large-scale game truly feel like a grand adventure.
To take an obvious example, something like FFVII would be a lot less enjoyable if the story were simply, beginning to end, "We gotta find Sephiroth! Okay, found him, now let's kill him! THE END." The story itself isn't necessarily the appeal, but having a dynamic narrative in conjunction with traversing all different kinds of beautiful (for the time) areas and building up you party's strength and abilities makes it feel like a grand journey, and it's that feel, not the areas, combat, or story itself that makes the game so beloved.
So much for keeping it short, I guess. I'm going to go take a shower.
>>332406837
Absolutely
Give me some pisspoor excuse of a story and it's fine for me
>>332408861
That would be a nice twist actually, he comes, they fuck and he actually fixes the plumbing afterwards.
If you think that then you have to accept that games aren't art.
If you do, then that's fine. But some people on here are still clinging to the delusion of "NO GAMEPLAY CAN BE ART IN AND OF ITSELF" which no, not really. Unless you'd call Engineering an artform.
>>332409470
Dwarf Fortress is pretty much an engine to generate stories though.
>>332409310
Carmack isn't the one making the games. He makes the most modern graphics engines and lets the creative directors and level designers play with his creations.
>>332408929
>>332409724
Engineering can be an art though.
>>332410042
The architecture are the pillars, not the visual sculpting around them.
Similar to how the gameplay is the control and mechanics, not the interaction with the story.
>>332409338
no, quakecon one year, he apologized on stage.
trying to find the video/clip, i remember watching it live.
>>332409937
>>332408929
Planescape is a VN for DnD fags
>>332406837
He's right about being wrong.
Games without story belong to arcade.
>>332408328
never
can't be done
novels are too patrician
>>332406837
>enjoyed the shit out XC due to its story
>stopped playing XCX due to its story
no hes not right
>>332410281
>story makes or breaks the game for me
You are cancer.
>>332410253
gonna need more anon
>>332408328Metro 2033
>>332410127
The whole building is a work of art. It's not a big stone shed with some detailing added as an afterthought.
>>332408328
>>332410718
gonna give you this, anonhttp://g.e-hentai.org/g/907749/f4975068f8/
>>332408328
>name a game that compares to an unnamed novel
You're fucking retarded. At least pick a novel.
>>332406837
I completely agree.
Not saying this goes for all people but most have probably just gotten so used to it that they think they cant enjoy a game without it, yet the games they've enjoyed the most can be competive games with literally no story or games like skyrim etc with a story so shit it might as well not be there.
>>332411108
>a story about a man haunted by demons that represent the sins of his past
Jesus, man. How about you come up with something that isn't a tired cliche in the book world?
>>332406837
He's wrong. It is important. A bad story won't make a good game bad, but a good story can be the difference between a good and great game. Unless you're making like Tetris or something, your game is probably going to have some kind of story element. Half-assing it because you arbitrarily deem it "not important" is just an excuse to be lazy and being a shitty dev.
>>332411213
gr8
>>332411629
newsflash, a story's conflict can be boiled down to one of three cassifications, try harder next time
I went back to writing instead of gamedev because I knew I'd just be making games to tell a story, which, all-in-all, is pretty stupid.
Not saying you can't blend a story into a game, but first and foremost it has to be a game, with skills to learn and challenges to overcome.
Without that essential component you just have some vague interactive experience that will never reach the height of what games can really do.
>>332406837
its true to a point. if its a visual novel game or a RPG then yeah the story needs to be good and engaging to keep you going since most of your time is gonna be spent reading text and interacting with the environments.
>>332411665
Depends. A good vidya story for me is one that doesn't put itself in the way of the gameplay. Look at Half-Life 2. I couldn't give less of a fuck about that mediocre scifi story, but the game insists on locking me in a small room to infodump shit every half hour, stopping me from playing the game.
>>332411904
reddit is that way
>>332412054
>being a shitty /v/ opinions parrot
Off yurself
>>332408328
Sup faggot
>>332411843
Don't forget the visual imagery is ripped straight out of a film.
For fuck's sake, this is what you are going to put on a pedestal? A work that is horribly derivative at best, plagiarism at worst?
What's your next suggestion for brilliance that could only come from a game? Bioshock?
It's no wonder nobody respects games...
>>332411904
The successful execution of the integration of the story into the game will of course vary, but the question was wether its important or not and if you should bother at all. Carmack seems to think not but I disagree. That doesn't mean you can still put effort into your story and have the result come out bad. The point is, you didn't dismiss it as irrelevant and not even care in the first place.
>>332412171
>Don't forget the visual imagery is ripped straight out of a film.
this is bad how? Video games are a visual medium bruh
>>332406837
Yeah, I never cared about stories in video games. Actually most of my PC games were in English as I grew up and couldn't understand a word of it.
Gameplay, atmosphere, graphics, sounds and physics are important. People who put story first don't really like video games.
>>332412159
>Journey
>Story
Pick one.I played through the game with some friends, I don't remember any story what so ever
>>332412214
I'd say that it depends on the genre. Most every kind of RPG needs a good story, or at least good worldbuilding, to work out. A multiplayer shooter not so much, a singleplayer/campaign based ones more. Grand strategy, management games, Total War games don't need shit for a story and still work perfectly well. And so on.
>>332406837
depends on the game
The best games either tell a story or create stories that you can remember and retell.
If you're making a multiplayer game then the latter is no problem, people working together towards a goal or competing with one another is the core of what stories are and always have been.
Single player though is trickier, if you're not telling a story (visually or through a more traditional narrative) and your game doesn't generate stories, like say a simulation or a game where a competent AI stands in for a human opponent, what have you made? Something between pornography and a virtual job I'd say.
He's right and he's wrong. A game can be good, even great, if it has all the right things, gameplay, graphics, etc, but also has weak plot/characters. Rarely will a good story compensate for a bad game (I can only really think of Deadly Premonition off the top of my head, and that's not a game to casually recommend to most gamers, especially casuals).
But a good story can elevate otherwise simply 'good' games to greatness. Part of what made games like MGS1 masterpieces WAS the plot and the characters.
I feel like at this point what's holding games back is that we have the potential to have meaningful stories in amazing looking and playing games but no one wants to pony up the cash to hire good writers.
So in reality
>>332411871
Lol what a shitter
>>332412446
Metro 2033 is an example for a campaign-based shooter that gets enhanced by its story. Just crawing around in a metro shooting random stuff would also be fun, but the worldbuilding and story of Artyom improves the game.
>>332406837
le autism coder guy
>>332408328
FFVI
name a novel with a better villain than Kefka
you cant because he achieved his goals and destroyed the world
>>332412171
>A work that is horribly derivative at best, plagiarism at worst?
So, you're saying that no critically acclaimed books, which are considered art, are "derivative at best, plagiarism at worst"?
>>332407595
You realize that he means that a developed story isn't necessary for all games, not that good story shouldn't be in games, right?
>>332407882
There are plenty of old RPG and adventure games with very little story. There are also tons of Point and click games which have a very simple story, especially those meant for all ages.
All a game needs to be a fantastic game is good gameplay.
All games at its core should focus on having great gameplay first.
All other elements only serve to make the game better. But some games are better with story, some are better without.
Example: Rocket League is simple but fantastically executed. No need for a story. The gameplay is brilliant.
Then you get something like MGS or Metro or whatever other game that is incredibly enhanced by a story and also has great gameplay.
It all comes down to how its executed and whether it makes sense to have a story.
>>332412446
"needing it to work" isn't really what I'm talking about.
All of those other genres of games have story elements even if it isn't as crucial to the enjoyment of the game. My original point is that even in that case a stellar story and writing can seriously elevate a game. In that sense, its important. Like I said, if the game stands on its own, lack of a good story isn't really going to hurt it.
Basically, if you're going to do any kind of story, do it the best you possibly can. I know that that's not feasible for most games that aren't rpg as the money won't be spent on writers but, that's the ideal. Not to skimp or half ass on any aspect just because its deemed "non-crucial." Attention to detail is lacking in a lot of games and when you play one where a lot of thought and craft went into even the small things it's so refreshing.
>>332406837
Mostly, except you shouldn't even expect story to be in a game to begin with
>>332407391
boring games
>>332412957
lol, classic neo-/v/
>>332412957
God or Satan in Paradise Lost.
>>332407540
Look, when I play games, I want to PLAY games. I don't want some stupidly simple gameplay that I have to slog through between bits of story, no matter how good the story.
Priority should always be gameplay. A good story is a great bonus.
It doesn't make a difference anyway, since gameplay has gone to the shitter for a long time now. It's either cookie-cutter or crap.
>>332413130
I guess that's true, if you have two versions of the same game and one has a better story as the sole difference it's also going to be the better game
>>332411665
Honestly if you ask me, having a lot of story can make a game worse. A lot of games have worse replayability just because you have to go through the same cutscenes over and over.
>>332412159
>journey
>game
lel
>>332412957
>name a novel with a bad end
Fuck man, I don't think that's ever been done before.
>>332406837
It depends on the game.
For a game like Hotline Miami the story don't matter.
But for a game like Spec Ops the Line the story makes the game.
>>332413394
That's not having to do with the quality of the story and writing but the execution of the integration and presentation of it in the game. Totally different issue.
>>332407281
He wasn't right even when he said this. He is right in the context of ID software games, but not gaming as a whole.
>>332413551
Hotline Miami's story doesn't matter because you have to do a gay ass pixel hunt in every level just to get the ending and Rasmus doesn't even help and Dennaton can just off themselves tßh
>>332413693
The pixel hunt was literally just to troll retards that actually care about story in video games.
>>332413394
There seems to be a pretty clear distinction between the type of games which are a story (like a book or film or play) with gameplay and the ones which are a game in the more traditional sense, like a sport or board game.
And it's not a genre thing, you can have examples of either within the same genre of game.
>>332406837
Yes. Games are games and really should just stay like that, but as long as indies are still making gameplay-focused games the AAA faggots can keep making their shitty interactive movies.
The people who pine for incredible stories and story-telling in games remind me of /co/'s fucking lore-fags when it comes to childrens cartoons.
>>332413768
Nigga, HM2 wasn't a flick, it was a planned DLC that grew into a sequel. There was a story, they've established most of the plot points deliberately.
![maxresdefault[3].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/UKXKCH9.jpg "maxresdefault[3].jpg")
Freespace series.
It's a game about flying in space and shooting, but MAN does it shine with a good story.
>>332413282
Congrats, you have an opinion. Your opinion is that without good gameplay, a game isn't engaging to you. That is completely fine.
It doesn't change that other people find a game that focuses on the story engaging.
>>332413559
It's really hard to make a story unobtrusive to gameplay though unless if you basically make it completely optional like in Diablo 2 or something. Unfortunately most games don't allow you to skip cutscenes or have a lot of text that you have to mash A to get through.
At the very base level, a great game needs great gameplay and nothing else. No story, no characters, no music, doesn't even need a world or context of any kind, art direction just needs to make sure your eyes don't bleed, and menus need to be functional. The obvious example is Tetris (it had great music but the game on mute is still excellent). Everything else can add to a game's memorability and attachment -- no one is emotionally invested in the L block except dumb ironic college students -- but you need nothing but gameplay to make a 10/10. You can't have a 10/10 with shit or mediocre gameplay.
>>332413940
But if they want stories so much, why seek them in vidya as opposed to more suitable media (books, tv, film)?
>>332414251
Zero effort immersion, with modern games you barely have to utilise your imagination, everything is presented to you in the world of the game.
You don't have to visualise everything like you would with a book and you don't even have to relate to any of the characters like with film or TV because there's generally a blank slate of a protagonist for you to superimpose yourself onto.
Or I dunno, maybe they're just video game institutionalised and incapable of venturing out of that comfort zone.
>>332407281
Trusting this guy on matters of story is like asking the tale of tales spergs about good gameplay.
They both have no fucking clue.
>>332414047
Fallout 4, though. Gameplay wise it's way better than the rest, but it's not even that great. It's like a 7 at worst. Slightly better than average because of the way the mechanics work. But I honestly think that game is cancer because there's no role playing at all, and the story is trash. More like a 4 to me afterwards.
>>332407595
>he's wrong and I bet he'd admit it himself
You know very little about carmack and his infallible ego, do you?
>>332413086
>You realize that he means that a developed story isn't necessary for all games, not that good story shouldn't be in games, right?
Where do you get that information from?
Because interpreting that sentence your way is quite arbitrary.
>>332414251
Not interactive.
no
just no
>>332406837
Yes and no. Depends on the game. MMO? Fuck the story, if its great then great. But telltale games etc, even though their stories aren't amazing they are decent and the most important element.
>>332415459
>tfw books are very interactive but people who dont read books wont get it
If your skill with words and concepts are lacking you simply wont be able to read some books and have to develop yourself.
>>332406837
>implying shitty amateur porn with a good story isn't better than professional porn with no story
>>332407387
JAV timestop and superpowers stories are great though.
Depends on the game, but I lean to no.
>>332411904
>this much shit taste
I bet you play games on your phone, too.
there are no video games with good stories.
>>332415917
Superhot was the equivalent of a good short film.
>>332415628
Books are not interactive, at all.
Book is incapable of presenting you with choices and reacting to them accordingly.
And if you think shit like "well I can always imagine things!" counts as interactive then why do you even need a book to begin with, just go sit in a corner and keep imagining things.
And movies don't need good stories either, they just need to be as visually appealing as possible.
>>332415917
Shut the fuck up and play more you piece of shit
>>332408280
I see both your and his point, but the comparison to a porn movie is pretty awful. If you're going to do story in a game, do it right, otherwise just make it vague or don't do it.
>>332415968
>Books are not interactive, at all.
books force you to use your imagination by largely being a text-only medium. that's pretty fucking interactive if you ask me.
video games leave virtually nothing to the imagination. you're presented everything on a silver platter.
>>332415968
>interactive
>"acting upon or influencing each other," from Etymology.com
You read the book and are influenced by the narrative the words present, and your own emotions color your interpretation of the work, and continued readings take you into deeper layers of understanding of the book if you wish. Just like you'd get better at a game from continued play.
Books are very interactive, just not in a plainly obvious way like videogames.
And I'll be really honest and say that narrative choice in video-games is overrated bullshit. Even in gameplay it always pales in comparison to the possibilities inherent in say tabletop games. Roguelikes come very close though.
>>332415968
A (good) book presents you text and tasks you with interpreting it for yourself.
What meaning you derive from it is down to you. Eh though, this is just going to become a semantic debate about the word interactive.
>>332415917
Dwarf Fortress
>>332416190
>that's pretty fucking interactive if you ask me
Not exactly, it's not conscious, and you can't affect the story.
>>332406837
Depends on the game.
>>332416051
i play games with good gameplay because that's what games are for. why would i want to play a game that sacrifices gameplay for a mediocre at best story?
>>332416190
Nonsense. What happened at end of TLoU? Ellie believed Joel? Didn't? Went with him or run away? Imagination
>>332406837
He doesn't realise it, but he's referring to non-interactive cutscenes.
So who here is going to watch his highly technical 4 hour acceptance speech?
>>332416190
>books force you to use your imagination by largely being a text-only medium. that's pretty fucking interactive if you ask me.
That depends on the book and no, it's not interactive, or at least not in the same way vidya can be.
You are not simply imagining what you want to imagine, you are merely interpreting what the author tried to show/tell you. And while the interpretation may wary from reader to reader, the merit stays the same.
If I write the book and someone dies in it, you can imagine how he died all you want but it doesn't change the fact that he is fucking dead and there was nothing you could do about it.
Not to mention you can't possibly enforce consequences in a book of everything is based on the readers imagination.
>video games leave virtually nothing to the imagination. you're presented everything on a silver platter.
That also depends on the game.
>>332412171
Novels were considered dogshit when they were new. Movies were considered dogshit derivative ass when they were new, and now video games are considered dogshit.
Do you see a pattern?
>>332416390
>thats what games are for
No they're not, its what they are to you.
Play more
>Spec Ops
>Mass Effect
>Red Dead
>TWD S1
>Brothers
To name a few
>>332416669
>video games are considered dogshit.
no they're not. i know people who will argue that FF7 is the magnum opus of human literature.
>>332416669
>Novels were considered dogshit when they were new.
Were they? Wasn't Don Quixote (if you buy into that being the first modern novel) a revelation when it arrived compared to the trash that it's partly an attack upon.
>>332416223
>>332416297
Alright, m,aybe saying they are not interactive at all might be an exaggeration, but they certainly not interactive in the way video games can be, while vidya can actually force you to use your imagination like the books can.
A book can't present you with choices and consequences or with roleplaying, while a game can make you interpret and imagine things.
The only thing that comes to close to vidya in that regard is tabletop.
>>332416976
>A book can't present you with choices and consequences
Books can very much challenge your perceptions and allow you to think more deeply, while also showing you the potential outcome of some lines of thinking
>>332406837
Depends on the type of game. Some games don't need stories, and some games thrive on having one.
Also, that comparison to porn is kind of weak, imo.
>>332416976
I think the issue is that books and tabletop games can do those things so much better than video games presently are doing.
Video games can do both at once, and they're more convenient and potentially more immersive, but it feels like we're still waiting for them to do it well.
>>332416395
>What happened at end of TLoU? Ellie believed Joel? Didn't? Went with him or run away?
that's speculation, not imagination.
>>332417280
no computer will beat the imagination, unfortunately
but honestly i dont think they should try to, vidya does best when it challenges skills like timing, situational awareness, pattern recognition, etc.
>>332417083
>Books can very much challenge your perceptions and allow you to think more deeply, while also showing you the potential outcome of some lines of thinking
That does not equals to actually making a choice and dealing with the consequences.
Meanwhile, vidya can do both.
>>332417280
Yes, but vidya can do all of this at the same time, which is why it might be preferred by some.
It's like saying you shouldn't eat chocolate chip ice cream because you can simply eat normal ice cream and normal chocolate.
>inb4 food analogies
>>332416761
>no they're not
confirmed for never talking to normies
>>332417836
With vidya its easy enough to just reload a save and try different routes, you'd really have to do some digging to explain why making a choice in narrative is such a huge virtue in videogames.
AS far as I've seen, choices in game narratives usually result in a highly watered down experience because no one route gets complete focus and all sorts of accommodations have to be made with limited time and resources.
>>332417894
plenty of "normies" play story games. actually that might be the only type of game normies like outside of AAA titles because normies suck at video games that require skill and effort.
>>332406837
No because story is what I look for when I play rpg.
>>332417405
Personally I think the thing video games do best is present you with a system which you must learn to manipulate in order to complete a goal or just to explore the limits of what it's capable of. And let you play games with an almost limitless mass of people without having to leave your house.
>>332417836
>Yes, but vidya can do all of this at the same time,
That's what I said in the second line.
>>332418062
doubly confirms never talking to normies
>>332415459
There are only two ways I see interactivity being useful to a story:
>the story is influenced by your actions (rarely done, especially rarely done well)
>the "game" is pretty much just an interactive movie
There are a shitton of games whose focuses are on story but still attempt to feel gamey when they should just aim to be an interactive movie.
>>332414879
This I can understand. Aren't games these days mostly focusing on story over gameplay though? I said already that gameplay has been cookie-cutter, which leaves the only difference between a majority of games being their settings and stories.
>>332412424The story is a creation myth about reincarnation told through pictographs. The player character was born from the light on the mountain, traveled to the mountain, died and was reincarnated again. That's the central point of the plot and the theme of the game; life is a Journey.
>>332418029
>With vidya its easy enough to just reload a save and try different routes, you'd really have to do some digging to explain why making a choice in narrative is such a huge virtue in videogames.
You obviously can't force someone to play your game the way it's meant to be played, but it doesn't mean everyone is going to do that.
Not to mention savesumming doesn't really work if the game has a lot of branching paths and you already made a lot of other choices.
>AS far as I've seen, choices in game narratives usually result in a highly watered down experience because no one route gets complete focus and all sorts of accommodations have to be made with limited time and resources.
That's an issue, but it's not an inherent flaw of vidya itself.
Age of Decadence for example did a pretty good job with a lot of choices&cosequence and has a lot of effort put into every single scenario you can get, the gameplay is not that bad, the only thing that suffered a lot because of limited resources is graphics.
>>332415417
Shitter apologized for Rage being a bomb, he's capable of doing it.
Doesn't matter because right now I'm sure he's just trying to manage the technical side of OR
>>332418259
>Aren't games these days mostly focusing on story over gameplay though?
I'm not sure about that. I guess when people praise gameplay it's often novelty that they appreciate. You yourself say cookie-cutter, which I take to mean that gameplay which was once considered great no longer is because it is no longer novel. Though I may be misinterpreting.
>>332406837
If you have no taste, yes. Sure, video games can get by without a story, just like porn can get by without a story
But it's like eating food without spice. Once you've experienced good story in your games or in your porn, having it without is just unsatisfying.
>>332407860
>Carmack's games are insipid without Romero's creative spark
>Romero is out of his gourd insane when Carmack isn't there to yank on the chokechain
http://lparchive.org/Arcanum/chapter48.html
Read this shit, tell me story isn't important.
Arcanum is literally rated top tier RPG despite having absolute shit broken unbalanced game mechanics. Same for Divine Divinity. Lmao scorpion traps!!!
>>332419341
>someone narrating their experience of a game counts as the games story
yea nah, I could prose up my taking a shit and its the same principle
>>332418695
That's pretty much what I mean. from a purely gameplay-perspective, most games are just copying the same formulae over & over again. Therefore the only part of these games that are unique/novel are their stories.
>>332412957
Motherfucking Moby Dick. Holy shit I shouldn't even have to tell that.
>>332406837
It's a 50/50 split, especially nowadays where a good story can actually add to an experience by either giving up context for our actions or possible characters to get behind.
That being said, story should never be #1 Priority. It's a video game, and pretentious failed writers pretending they know how to code anything beyond a level layout need to learn that... they won't.
>>332418806
>Once you've experienced good story in your games or in your porn, having it without is just unsatisfying.
except that isn't true at all. not everyone gives a shit about stories, even if they are good. some people just want to play games.
Vidya in stories is cute until you realize most of it is equivalent to beginner level short stories/novels - yet has thousands spent on its production
Kinda the same in webcomics, almost always way too much investment on telling a poorly crafted story
this is why you focus on gameplay
>>332420330
stories in vidya*
>>332419838
Moby Dick is just a whale.
>>332419628
Well, there are limits. In the same way that stories all boil down the same core elements there becomes a point where new gameplay is just more of the old but with additional gimmicks. At least until we move on to some new technologies anyway.
If people are only interested in innovation of gameplay and not refinement then I start to wonder how we should think about it.
Yes, he's absolutely right.
The story in video games doesn't have to be in any way feasible. The point of the story is the be a binding ingredient to hold the all the gameplay together and give it a purpose beyond playing for the sake of playing.
A good game is 50% gameplay, 40% atmosphere (that includes music) and 10% story. The gameplay and the atmosphere should be enough to make any story engaging. By playing the game, the player is writing the bulk of the story.
I like to use Dark Souls as a good example of this. Were you to describe the story in Dark Souls, it could be done in a few brief sentences. However, were you to describe your story in Dark Souls, it could encompass several, even dozens, of pages, not counting your failures.
A decent story book will spend entire chapters describing an action scene, going through character motivations and choices. In a video game, those action scenes are played out by the player. They are part of the story. Good gameplay writes a better story than overlong cinematic scenes, pages of dialogue, and constant narration ever could.
And now you know why the industry is in the shitbox right now; and why companies like FROM are becoming increasingly popular.
If you wanted to watch a story, then go watch a movie. If you wanted to read a story, then go read a book. If you want to play a story, play a video game. It's that fucking simple.
>>332420813
Kefka is just pixels.
>>332406837
Depends on the genre. If it's a game like rocket league or Marvel vs Capcom, then it doesn't need a plot. The game doesn't need to justify itself. However if its a narrative driven genre like an RPG or adventure games require a plot. The gameplay is just an excuse for you to experience the story.
>>332420878
I've never played that game.
But Moby Dick is an animal, it's not the villain or a reasonable object of a quest for revenge because it's a fucking whale.
>>332421176
>Moby Dick is not the villain or a reasonable object of a quest for revenge for Ahab
Ayyyy
>>332421176
>But Moby Dick is an animal, it's not the villain or a reasonable object of a quest for revenge because it's a fucking whale.
Imagine being this oblivious.
Yep, totally. The subtlety of the statement is that video games are not porn movies, so when a video game sets out to have a good story, it's not under that same scrutiny
>>332420825
Well said.
>>332421307
>>332421326
It is literally a just a whale. Ahab is insane.
>>332421176
>moby dick was not the villain
He was the antagonist. Holy fuck learn story composition
>>332421687
Ahab is the antagonist.
>>332421584
Thanks. This is at least the 5th time I've posted this explanation in a "does story matter" thread. Neo/v/ will ignore it for the sake of arguing over bullshit like the validity of Moby Dick as a well written villain.
>>332421795
That completely depends on your point of view. That's why it makes for a far more complex story. Good and Evil aren't exactly defined in it.
>>332421963
and this is what makes books interactive.
that and having to visualize entire universes.
>>332408328
>>332420813
I hardly think technologies have anything to do with it. If anything technology has stumped innovation, since instead of working hard to create something new, they just create the same thing with new graphics.
Technological innovation (VR, new methods of input, etc) will also only stump innovation as everyone makes games that match the hardware, as opposed to just making games regardless of what hardware is available/the standard.
For starters, devs should go back to actually inventing new games before building on them with graphics & shine. Easier said than done, I know, but it has to be brought into focus, because right now it seems to be completely forgotten.
>>332420825
Truly well said. I still think games with good gameplay are worth playing just for the sake of playing, but a good story is a bonus, & if it ties in with the gameplay then it's a work of art.
I'd dare say that Shadow of the Colossus is good for the same reason. In fact I'm finding this pattern among all of my favorite games.
>>332406837
Stories make some porn even hotter.
>>332422134
It makes watching adaptations a pain in the butt, though.
>>332422353
You are 100% correct. A good story in porn is the best foreplay and makes my dick diamonds.
>>332422468
Everytime I say something and people agree they post this cat.
Seriously what the fuck?
>>332420825
>A decent story book will spend entire chapters describing an action scene
>Good gameplay writes a better story than overlong cinematic scenes, pages of dialogue, and constant narration ever could.
what shitty books are you reading
>expecting a literal (and i do mean literally) sociopath to care about emotional things like story
It really depends on what kind of game you're playing, yeah? I mean, I'm not suspecting to play minesweeper and with each passing mission get like a few minutes of story from that minesweeper comedy vid.... Wait, I feel like theres money here...
>>332422534
>what shitty books are you reading
i take it you're not into fantasy novels.
>>332406837
>is the autistic sociopath right?
Probably.
>>332421117
>if its a narrative driven genre like an RPG or adventure games require a plot. The gameplay is just an excuse for you to experience the story.
I disagree. Even in RPGs and any other game driven by a story, the point of having the story is to provide context and motivation to the gameplay. It can be something much, much greater than the plot of a porn film, but its purpose should be to support the gameplay, not the other way around.
If gameplay is relegated to being an "excuse" for anything, the developer has their priorities screwed.
>>332422534
The point
Your head.
![cee[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/qxnK4zs.png "cee[1].png")
>>332422530
Sounds awfully familiar.
>>332421963
The whale is only given agency through Ahab's obsession with it. Regardless of what it symbolises or represents in the minds of various characters it is a whale, it's not some supernatural creature with magical powers.
>>332422684
The only good fantasy writers I can think of are Tolkien, Gene Wolfe and, to an extent, Glen Cook
>>332422841
so you're not into fantasy novels, i take it.
>>332422530
You're being stalked online.
>>332422828
Well the beast is written as being fuckhuge, white as ivory, angry as fuck, and having bested the best whalers across the whalers. It's more than just an odd creature.
Still, I can get your point, even though I disagree with it.
Yeah, but Rage is still a shitty engine.
>>332422684
Not too much, I really like Scott Bakker lately though
>>332422745
The point is shit. Its a bad writer who takes up pages to describe just plain action with no greater meaning or context.
That post just sounds like a guy dosent read much, or if he does read its supremely shitty scifi/fantasy. It also sounds like he dosent even understand how prose can function as more than describing face value events. Which makes the convo past this point useless.
>>332423054
>Antialiasing : Yes / No
I'm still miffed.
>>332406837
No.
Stories are more than just series of events happening. It's the aesthetics of the levels, player character, button inputs, etc. It gives context to our gameplay. Even a game with no "story" has some sort of explanation. For example, Pong is a game with no music or visuals beyond a line and a circle. But it's meant to be a simplified version of table tennis, has sounds when the ball hits the line, and a different sound when it gets to the other side of the screen. And this is called "scoring" and the number at the top increases by 1.
This may sound super obvious and you say "this is just gameplay." But then now add more of those aesthetics. More sounds, more colors, more shapes. But it can't just be random. There needs to be some sort of coherence so gamers can easily understand and play it. So in Tomb Raider, you control a long rectangular box and it can move in a blank 3d space. If the box encounters a large moving box, it will collapse. Repeat this few more times and the game turns black.
Now that makes no sense and it's not fun. But that's how a game would be with no "story." Instead, the developers add textures and shape to the boxes and the 3d world so the box you control looks like a lady with guns and cargo pants. And the 3d space looks like a ruins of a temple, and the large moving box is a tiger. Now you get that the story of the game is you're playing as some lady who travels to ancient ruins and shoot guns and jump around a lot. And the tiger is running at her and hurts her, and too much damage results in a game over.
And with this story, the developers can now figure out what gameplay to add to it. Maybe they can give her a grappling hook or more movesets. Different ruins to explore. Different enemy types. All further giving coherence to the story of a tomb raider.
>>332423084
>Scott Bakker
His fantasy retelling of the first crusade was ok, after that it is just fucking dreadful though, it's no wonder his publisher shelved the most recent book for years.
>tfw you actually want some sort of small story and build up in porn movies
>>332423320
Aspect-Emperor trilogy has been pretty entertaining so far, I like quite a few of the characters like Sorweel. I dont really know what the endgame is, but its a fun little ride.
>>332423054
Well, the The Evil Within iteration of it (and supposedly Wolfenstein's too, but I haven't played it) is actually decent, FXAA notwithstanding. They managed to fix all the pop in and culling issues, so it was somewhat salvageable. Not that it was worth salvaging in the first place, but whatever.
>>332406837
In certain types of games, absolutely. They need to have top-tier stellar gameplay though. If potential investment in a story or in characters isn't a thing there's no way you can get by with merely mediocre gameplay.
>>332423272
I think you're confusing "story" for plain and simple context.
There is room enough for both. Generalizing video games one way or the other is silly. That being said i'd rather a game with a new and interesting mechanics and a shitty story, than an interesting story with shitty CoD shootan or other tired gameplay we've seen a thousand times before.
>>332423084
>Its a bad writer who takes up pages to describe just plain action with no greater meaning or context
Once again:
The point
Your head
Enjoy being a contrarian.
>>332423579
Well, story is context. It's just how much context the developers want to give that gives different levels of story. This can be done through cutscenes, text descriptions of items, speaking characters, etc.
>>332406837
He's right in a way. The issue is most "story games" have shit stories and don't tell them properly. Literally no video game series has ever topped Legacy of Kain story wise, so most "story" games are shit. And the great thing about its story is it's told in such a great way, and doesn't overly rely on "MUH FEELINGSSGS"
>>332406837
Wrong. I don't expect my porn to have story and when it does it ruins my mood that i'm trying to cultivate each time.
Hes not wrong about the video game point for alot of genres but he is about porn porn is better without story unless its some fetish type thing and even then NTR/Incest are the only ones that could be labeled as story esque.
>>332423495
It lost me with the straight out of 2nd edition D&D dungeon crawl and the retreat into prose that is, I don't even know what it's supposed to be, is it meant ironically?
Anyway, the end game will see Jesus betray everyone and join up with the sex pervert aliens (who I do quite like as a concept) and then fat Gandalf will defeat him in the final battle. I've forgotten the names of all the characters.
>>332412171
Silent Hill 2 is GOAT.
Eat shit.
>>332423750
Enjoy being an illiterate fuckhead absorbing opinions from people who know shit about how literature works.
Oh but for the sake of clarity, do tell me what im missing.
>>332406837
Depends on the game
>>332406837
No. In porn you're just there to jack off. You're there only for the porn. In games there are a lot of things that improve the game other than gameplay.
>>332423940
The whole fucking point.
Your entire counter argument is "you clearly read a shitty book"; which refutes none of what was said, nor is it in any way relevant to the point being made. You're just being a contrarian faggot; and it's icing on the cake how far up your own ass you are about it.
>>332423909
I think he tries to mimic the overhead historic style you'd see in say history books or the Bible with the battle scenes, but its really sporadic.
He's better when he just plays it straight and loses all stylistic pretension, the world is interesting enough
>>332424239
I straight up explained why his point is bullshit, you just refuse to believe it.
He tries to put vidya above text narrative in describing events when he dosent even know how prose is supposed to function, he's arguing from a point of ignorance that makes it laughable.
Sure you have the cute ending of "just play/read/watch what you want guys :D", which is nice, but anything above that point is pure bullshit. He should've spared himself the embarrassment and just said that to begin with.
>>332424327
It worked fine in the earlier books, it just seems to go into overdrive at points and chuck out these massive slabs of meaningless waffle.
I really do like the Consult though. They're alien in a way that's incomprehensible, repulsive and evil. Which is a nice change from aliens who are warlike humans or aliens who are sneaky humans or whatever. Shame they're barely in the books up to press.
One of the reasons videogames are practically my only medium of entertainment is because after growing up playing videogames, passive media (books, TV, movies) feel like a waste of my time. Books not so much -- I just can't stop myself from daydreaming and failing to absorb anything once the story stirs my imagination -- but definitely TV and movies.
Every second spent watching a cutscene is a second spent NOT playing a videogame. Dialogue is not gameplay, even if it contains choices and branches. Cinematic action setpieces are unengaging at best and insulting at worst.
Cutscenes and dialogue can and do belong in a videogame, but they are tools to be used with respect for the player's time and player agency.
>>332420813
>Moby Dick is just a whale.
moby dick isn't a villain, just a force of nature. Ahab is the villain.
>>332425085
Is there an echo in here?
>>332424542
>you clearly read a shit book
>if a writer did x, it would be bad writing
>this refutes the point
Listen here, you illiterate fuck. The point was the explain how the different mediums tell a story. You haven't refuted anything in that post. The most you've done is made some grand assumptions about the poster, then called the poster an idiot based on those assumptions.
You're a fucking idiot.
Nukige stories are better than half of what westcucks puts out.
>>332425701
>weebshit for fapping is better than western shit
I used to really enjoy stories in games, but now they just irritate and frustrate me. Recently played Digimon Story, and had a lot of fun with it, but I just wanted everyone to shut the fuck up and let me play the goddamned game.
This is coming from someone whose favorite series is Metal Gear Solid; maybe I enjoy that series's narratives because they ONLY work in the form of a video game.
I know you nerds will get upset when I mention it, but I love how Bloodborne just presents excellent atmosphere and teensy bits of lore and lets you largely construct the narrative itself as you play. SMT: Nocturne and SoTC do this wonderfully too.
>>332425414
>A decent story book will spend entire chapters describing an action scene, going through character motivations and choices. In a video game, those action scenes are played out by the player. They are part of the story. Good gameplay writes a better story than overlong cinematic scenes, pages of dialogue, and constant narration ever could.
What I'm telling you is that poster is arguing from a point of very little understanding of how literature works.
He has this shitty opinion that good gameplay can work better than literature when that is plain false. At best you just see the action a little faster but what does that matter when its not even a good story, like in most videogames. And like I said, literature encompasses far more than face value action, which is what videogames mostly concern themselves with.
There's not a single game on this planet hitting the same effects as Moby Dick or Don Quixote from its gameplay, much less its story. Thats exactly why i asked what shitty books he's been reading, since clearly that's all he has been absorbing to even form such an opinion.
Considering that no story has been good past 2002 I'd say he's about right.
Fucking hate how devs try to make their games longer by including unskippable boring cutscenes.
>>332425847
I'm glad we agree.
>>332426132
Yes. In a way.
>>332412492
whats the story in tetris
>>332426848
Berlin Wall simulator.
>>332425997
I really should add then, I would have agreed had he simply said that "videogames tell their stories differently than literature", which I'm sure is what he really wanted to say. But to say that they do it /better/ is hugely ignorant considering the history thus far, and how extensive narrative technique has developed in literature compared to games. Its just ridiculous.
Mainstream games by far are still struggling with the idea of having their games actually NOT being mass-murder simulators. That says alot.
