Gentlemen, how do we save the stealth genre?
Weren't MGSV and new Hitman games good? I have a toaster so I can't find out myself.
Stop making the player character into an invisible murder machine, and make them actually be furtive.
Also bigass, sprawling levels. With tons of shit to uncover and interact with.
>>332292414
Neat
What does the rope attach to though? Is that a skylight?
>>332292257
wide open levels with lots of paths. also interactables.
>>332292414
looks pretty good.
Make your own game and don't pander to casuals.
It's not rocket science.
>>332292351
They're both great games, yeah. Dishonored as well. The Stealth genre is doing fine from where I'm standing.
>>332292414
Thievery UT remake when
What about Styx?
>>332292257
easy
>>332293218
Clunky, buggy, generic as fuck story and design.
>>332293218
it wasn't bad... it was just meh. I couldn't get interested enough to finish it.
>>332293335
>>332293218
It was pretty shite mate
Make every stealth game a Manhunt clone.
>>332292257
Why save it, thief map modders create better content than modern devs judging from the latest "reboot". i'm assuming you mean pure stealth style like thief and not "stealth if i want but fight if i don't" dishonored and company.
>>332292257
It hurts, but you cant.
They cultivated the idea of low atention span, instan regret, no patience, no planing, no logic way to think.
Everything went to shit.
>every game with stealth approach have a worse AI than the 1st thief
>most of this games are fast paced, so you must do that imposible speed ghost run
>no game is full stealth now, more like action packed with some stealth (tactical takedown) here and there
Give the player very limited combat ability, like Garret or Styx. There's not much tension when if I get caught Corvo is easily capable of slaughtering his way through all the guards.
>>332295489
I totally agree with this. Combat should be a last resort, or maybe even impossible. And please add a setting that automatically ends the mission or reloads your save when you get discovered, annoying to go like:
>HEY YOU ST-
reload
>HE-
reload
>>332295151
Adding to that list:
>Level design is linear now, and the constant demand for better graphics is not only making level design more complicated, but the extra decoration makes level navigation harder.
>Complex stealth mechanics like in Thief 1 require practice to master, and modern games are all about experience points and skill unlocks. You can never get good at the game because it keeps changing the rules as you unlock new things.
>>332292257
Fun fact. The guy who created Life of the Party went on to become the lead designer and writer of Fallout 3.
How the fuck do you even fall that far?
>>332293335
you can have first person view in Blacklist?
>>332292257
Stealth isn't a genre anymore. It's a tacked on game mechanic developers put in to add "depth" to the game.
>>332293335
>guy killed by explosion counts as combat.
>guy filled with lead during the confusion counts as stealth.
Makes sense.
If you want to complain about something that is pure shit, the crossbow is it. Silent, long range knockouts with fuck huge amounts of ammo that can affect multiple targets.
Something has gone horribly wrong when a 'stealth' nonlethal weapon lets you run and gun better than anything else in the game
>>332295774
Really? I knew he worked on T2 but I didn't think he was lead on Life of the Party
Greg LoPiccolo and Eric Brosius work at Harmonix now
>>332295929
Dont dare to play splinter cell games beyond double agent, and ill recomend you play the ps2 version, because the pc version is cucked up.
>>332295774
promoted to incompetence.
>>332295929
For one level as another character to help facilitate a twist later in the story.
It's pretty worthless though
>>332296165
it's too late mate, I've seen everything.
I played PC version of double agent, and it was shit. I think of buying it for PS2 now.
I played conviction and it was not even a stealth game, more of an FPS gears of war like.
I played blacklist and it was okay, but I still couldn't finish it. Something's just not right.
I still think chaos theory is the best of the whole series.
>>332292351
MGSV was a nearly perfect. I just felt disappointed by the whole presentation of the package. A lot of it felt disjointed; one minute I'm in the middle of the ocean working on my mother base, the next minute i'm all the way over in Africa blowing up planes.
Half the time i had no idea why I was doing certain objectives, which i think codec calls could have solved easily.
Just bits and bobs that formed the whole really irked with me. A little cohesiveness akin to MGS3 would have been better
>>332292257
By making stealth the only option, i.e. not giving the player ridiculous combat power.
Most people have the attention span of children, don't have the patience for stealth, and quickly resort to aggressive tactics when given the opportunity.
Ultimately it doesn't matter, as it's a catch 22.
Devs want to make money, so they need the cowadooty audience, which means they need to implement hamfisted combat approaches as well, removing the necessity of stealth.
un-consoleify Mankind Divided
>>332295774
It's pretty simple.
>Looking Glass
Free to do whatever they wanted and was full of passionate nerds who wanted to make the greatest game ever.
>Bethesda
Corporate business who don't care about anything but making money and couldn't care less about the quality of the game.
>>332296138
At least LoPiccolo and Brosius are working with music still. The music they made for System Shock 1 and 2 was amazing.
>>332296442
that's why the nature of business is so conflicting. It makes 100% sense to sell to the highest bidder, but at the cost of integrity
Remove combat
>>332296104
One of my friends once made me play blacklist and it was beyond bad.
>Hey anon.. look at this spies game, you need to hide and shit, like those thief games you told me about
>take the keyboard
>mouse scroll dont control sam speed
>shit controls, must be a regular magnet controls like desu ex
>walk into a container to hide but sam inmediatly climb it and i go full exposed
>guard is like 5 meters away
>2 snipers with red laser scopes on the floor of a nearby building
>IM SO FUCKED RIGHT NOW
>start to press everyting to grab the gun and start killing fags... then i see everyone and...
>no screams
>no alarms
>not even a HUH???
>get down the container
>fuck up with guards and the AI for a few moments
>show my friend they became blind if you are more than 3 metters away.
>told my friend this is shit and he should feel ashamed to think this is stealth at all
>he was playing on "asisted" normal
>friend gets mad and quits the game
>we play vitual tenis
>>332296646
They both started as sound guys (and had a band) so their attention to the audio in the games they made together was top-notch
We can't.
It hurts, but stealth is dead. Memory spans are getting shorter and shorter which means that gamers don't want to hide in shadows anymore.
They are not interested in planning and observing. They want to run and shoot. Listening to guards and sneaking around is way too boring for them. Most games are already way too action-y. What was the last great stealth game? Splinter Cell: Chaos theory? MGS 5 was like a 7/10.
This indusrty is going to hell. Games sell millions of copies but most genres are already dead. Where's proper Survival Horror? Where's Stealth Action?
Stealth's death is just the beginning.
Sorry OP, but you can't. A stealth game needs good AI and level design. Modern gamers don't like those. They like dumb downed AI that are blind and linear levels that tell you where to go.
It's simple, we kill the console
It's a niche market.
Games these days have to be developed for as wide an audience as possible, or else publishers won't give it the green-light.
Your only hope is some indie dev taking the reigns and creating something great, but it's a snowball's chance in hell because at the end of the day, we all gotta get paid to eat and pay dem bills.
I thought mark of the ninja was pretty good for a 2d stealth game.
My voyeur sense is tingling.
What are some decent stealth games where I can sneak around in peoples business?
Hitman is purdy good for that.
>>332297117
>What was the last great stealth game?Mark Of The Ninja.I've also heard good things about Dishonored (at least for a lethal playthrough).
Which reminds me, why do people go so apeshit about the fact that the game is better as a silent-killer simulator? It's not the sequel to pure breed stealth game, it's his own thing. If it allows for different routes/methods of playing, good for it.
>>332292257
Thief's save system is archaic and another reason why MGS shat all over it, other being guard AI and tons of stuff you can do with it apart from sneaking by. A save system where there's no penalty for quicksaving and no reward for finishing a mission without saves is not only outdated but dimwitted for its time, even.
Great atmosphere despite all that but it's a standard western game with simplistic gameplay. Some maps have outstanding interior design.
>>332292351
>MGS
>stealth
>>332297568
Dishonored is not a proper stealth game. It's a wierd Immersive Sim. Devs tried wayyyy too hard to make the game a Jack of all trades. It became a master of none in the end. Not a horrible game but nothin special
>>332292414
There needs to be a cyberpunk stealth game. With both third and first person perspective.
>>332297728
>implying MGS has anything on Thief
>>332297545
Thief
Death to Spies
>>332297810
> Devs tried wayyyy too hard to make the game a Jack of all trades. It became a master of none in the end. Not a horrible game but nothin special
Well, that reminds me of another extremely popular game.
>>332297568
>Mark Of The Ninja
shame that game was way to short
>>332297545
My nigga. SC Chaos Theory had a couple of levels that scratches that itch and Thief is also ok for that purpose.
>tfw no well made porn sneaking game
>>332297961
Bioshock? MGS 5? I am clueless.
>>332297845
>AI
>TECHNOLOGY
>gameplay
>sound design
>level design
>easter eggs
and that's only for the stealth part of it
Detection system alone makes it a better game, quicksaving was a horrible mechanic in every game that employed it.
>>332297859
They don't strike me as to "voyeur focused" though.
Well, Thief scratches it a bit but well, the age doesn't exactly make it as fun as looking through someones bedroom in search to see if the devs put in some hidden porn mags or something.
Dishonored had it's moments as well,but they mostly just slapped items in there instead of fun secrets.
>>332298046
I should give the SC series try actually. Only really played the first game.
>>332298269
lmao are you seriously saying MGS has better sound design than Thief?
>>332297976
It was long enough for me. Klei knows how to pace their games.
>>332298101Deux Ma Ex. At least gameplay wise. Stealth worse than Thief (although I'm kinda setting big standards for it) and shooting worse than System Shock 2 (which doesn't shine in the department.)
>>332298269
>>sound design
>>level design
Thief is better at those than MGS1.
>>332297728
>simplistic gameplay.
But MGS has far more simple AI, level design, and sneaking mechanics in general. Why do you think half the game is action scenes like running up a giant tower
>>332298046
>tfw no well made porn sneaking game
I'm sure there is a doujin game for this
>>332298269
Also, MGS is stealth action while Thief is just stealth, which makes all the difference in the world making the comparison stupid.
>>332298459
If there is I haven't found it. Too bad you can't mod Hitman Blood Money. You wouldn't even have to change a lot.
>>332298458
>MGS has far more simple AI
I'm starting to think that Thief fanbase is severely deluded. I can argue that Thief might have better level design in some areas but this is getting nonsensical.
>>332298546
MGS can be played in different ways. You can't do shit with guards in thief except fire a noisemaker arrow or whack them on the back of the head.
>>332296843
In the end it was inevitable. Video games simply followed the same path all other forms of entertainment went down.
Just look at movies for example. Most of what you see nowadays are action packed 2.5-hour rollercoaster rides with 4 lines of dialogue and zero character progression.
Something slow and existential like Space Odyssey is almost unthinkable nowadays as the average person can barely manage to hold their attention for a normal conversation.
Same goes for music. Loudness goes up, while pitch and timbre go down.
>>332298046
Why hasn't there been a Thief mod where you go around a women's locker room stealing underwear or something?
>>332295774
Few "lead" positions actually afford you any real creative control or input, you're the face of a committee. You're entire job is to jerk off half a dozen or more higher ups, try and get them to all splooge in the same general direction, all the while not getting any of it on the team or yourself, but accepting that you'll occasionally have to take a hit.
I made pretty much the coolest shit of my career back as a 20-nothing, junior-nothing making next to nothing, now that i'm a 30-something, director-someone making good money, the only hope I have of not putting complete shit out into the world is hiring fucking awesome 20-nothings and letting them do their thing whilst shielding them as best I can from all the dickwads up top.
>>332292257
>Gentlemen, how do we save the stealth genre?
You fix it yourself.
The stealth genre has probably come closer than any other genre to 'perfection', so on the one hand the bar is set pretty high, but it also means there is no shortage of a knowledge base to draw from and expand upon.
Grab Unity, Unreal, whatever, reproduce something that already exists, try something new, make something shit, it doesn't matter. The only way to ensure the genre is saved, is to ensure the genre thrives and that means those that are able and willing must sacrifice themselves in it's pursuit for the good of all.
>>332298665
In what way is MGS's AI more complex than Thief's? Not to say Thief has super intelligent AI (it wasn't even meant to, the lead designer said they felt it had to be dumb because the whole game is about being smarter than them), but it seems like it takes more things into account than MGS AI does.
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/2888/building_an_ai_sensory_system_.php?print=1
>>332299009
WHAT GAMES DID YA WORK ON FUCKBOI?
>>332298665
Uhh... MGS guards have strict alert stages that last a static number of seconds, after which they return completely to normal. They react to running footsteps and have a 5m long vision cone. They also notice footprints in snow, and if a cardboard box has moved. That's about the extent of their intelligence. There is no blood and bodies disappear.
Thief 1, which came out the same year as MGS, has over 30 factors that determine how NPCs detect you. They have lasting memory and become more and more suspicious from consecutive disturbances. When they are paranoid enough, they stop announching what they see or hear, and will even feign ignorance of you sneaking up on them so that they can turn around and slaughter you. Not only do the bodies of incapacitated enemies alert others that find them, but combat leaves bloodstains that they can see. You need to use water to wash away the blood.
There is absolutely no question that the AI in Thief is vastly more advanced than in MGS.
>>332299254 (me)
I can't believe I forgot this. The level design in Thief consts of visual, collision and aural geometry. The aural geometry is used to simulate how sound travels through space and matter, that determines the volume of what NPCs hear. MGS has nothing even approaching that type of sophistication in its stealth AI.
>>332299254
>feign ignorance of you sneaking up on them so that they can turn around and slaughter you
I damn near shit my pants when this happened to me the first time. Fucking tile floors.
>>332299254
Keep in mind MGS was pretty much the first of it's kind in being a 3d stealth game on consoles.
Reminder Blacklist didalmostnothing wrong.
>>332297810
Obligatory
https://youtu.be/zm0eUsf9lIE
>>332299009
>I now realize that I am at that 30-something higher-up-jerk-off point in my career.
Fuck
>>332299559
Definitely the best HD SC game that's for sure.
>>332299618
>that time stop
>>332298459
>>332298592
Biko 3.
>>332292257
By making a new Manhunt
Manhunt + RAGE engine + gore = good times
Have any good missions happened with The Dark Mod recently?
>>332300165
>we will never get a proper Manhunt 3
>>332299131
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le23bsVURds
This is before taking into account things you can do in MGS 2.
>>332299254
>after which they return completely to normal.
Well it's a video game, do you want them to remain perma alerted and fuck up your whole playthrough? Also it's evident you didn't play MGS on Euro Extreme.
>>332300313
Yup. The whole Manhunt 2 censor thing on wii kinda destroyed our chances of getting a new game.
>>332299226
MP component of Pandora Tomorrow, Ghost Recon 2, Far Cry Instincts, AssCreed 1, Asscreed 2 then jumped ship, sat around in my underpants for a few years doing freelance work and now i'm back to producing/directing for televsion/movies and pouring the proceeds of that into starting a game studio.
>>332300491
I'm sure Rockstar wants to do a new Manhunt game, but they know if they make the game they want it'll probably get an Ao rating and lose a bunch of sales.
fuck this gay earth
>>332300462
I assumed we were talking only about MGS1, since they were released around the same time. Obviously the game released six years later is going to be more advanced.
>>332299673
It doesn't get any better, I assure you.
>>332300682
Yep, really sucks shit.
Maybe someone will make a mod for GTA V.
>>332300727
Yeah, MGS 1 is pretty simplistic when it comes to stealth, didn't understand you.
>>332297728
back in the day, savescumming was frowned upon. It's also up to the player if he wants to be a little bitch or not. You're a pseudo-intellectual twat who is probably more than a decade younger than me and thinks he knows everything.
>>332299673
>>332299009
These posts make me want to pack up whatever shit I need and roam aimlessly around the country until I die
No more vidya or anything, just me on a motorcycle wandering around
>>332301469
If you'd read the whole post and tried to comprehend it rather than resorting to lazy projections you'd understand that I directly referenced lack of reward and the game's unintuitive approach to concept of saving and playing through the level in one go. Hence the MGS comparison.
>>332301489
Got a bike in mind?
>>332301764
>saving and playing through the level in one go
Some Thief levels would take many many hours to do this on a first run
>>332303009
MGS solves this by letting you save on checkpoints of sorts. You still have tightly designed setpieces to go through before and after that.
>>332302942
Sort of. Probably an older CB750, they're cheap and run forever if they're taken care of
Or a Thruxton, I've taken my friend's for a spin and I like it
>>332300510
Wow what horrible games
you should have been a NEET
>>332304084
>Spies vs Mercs
>bad
>>332292257
You cant save what you cant see
>>332297832
wait for the CDPR thing
>>332303676
Because MGS areas are small, and are in easily digestible chunks separated by obvious transitions and loading screens. That kind of save system doesn't work for 45 minute to hour long marathons with no loading screens and vague sectioning of areas where the player can access various parts of the level in any number of ways. How do you have checkpoints in that kind of scenario without making it a complete mess?
>>332299442
>this is why metal gear is called stealth for babies
If i remember it right, some guards have like a bar of stress,and when you put that guard too many times in alert, he will jump with his sword out of nothing, but i cant remember if it was an AI mod.
>>332292257
The stealth genre is not viable in the mainstream vidya industry, much like its cousin, horror. Trying to "save" it in that context is a fool's errand and desperate CPR at best. It only lives on in small devs or big name auteur developers who have the money and popularity to do what they want and run personal pet projects.
>>332304579
Loading screens are still better than quicksaves.
>>332292257
>people are seriously calling MGSV a stealth game
lol. any game that gives you the option to go rambo is not a real stealth game.
>how do we save the stealth genre?
we don't. it peaked at chaos theory and will never return.
>>332305206
You didn't answer my question at all
>>332304497
If it even has stealth it'll only be an optional part of the game. It wouldn't compare to a dedicated stealth title.
What good stealth games let me burgalize modern day homes?
I want a game where you stake out people's homes, break in and bust safes, smash shit and loot everything
>>332305214
You can do a swordmaster run in thief.
>kill everything alive in the map
>no items no nothing, just the swrod.
>survive
Serial Killer game where stealth and suspicion play a big part with how far you get through the game. Hitman/Thief esque.
>>332305625
Not on Expert you can't
>>332292257
In order to save it we must kill it.
>>332305449
I thought it would be obvious that your argument about 'not being able to access whole level' is pure conjecture because you can segment the level into loading screens and put patrols on each one and still make use of MGS model of stealth/detection. It does not follow that segmentation due to cpu capabilities would also be a hit on variety of approaches.
>>332305702
On normal is that way, on hard is kill everyone with a weapon in hand.
You need to mod missions to have expert difficulty settings and just take the no kill objetive out
>>332305858
But can you find it? May be on those shadows there...
>>332303876
CB750 would definitely be a better bet for riding 'til it or you drops, but newer Trumpy's are pretty sweet regardless.
Although i'd suggest an older 70's or 80's Jap single or twin, as few carbies as possible, kickstart and as little electrickery as possible.
>>332304084
Best guys i've ever worked with were all NEETS for most of their formative and early adult lives, get your shit together, the industry needs more of you fucks.
>>332304858
That's not in Thief. I think it's in Mark of The Ninja.
>>332300462
>do you want them to remain perma alerted and fuck up your whole playthrough?
Stealth AI that has no memory is the stealth game equivalent of regenerating health and ammo refill stations. Mistakes that cause alerts and chases are supposed to force players to adapt and change strategies. The same way as losing health in Doom forces players to deviate to secret areas to gather extra health. It's not "perma alert" It's guards who act like humans. They know there is an intruder and they remain at a heightened alertness level. It doesn't mean they're constantly swinging swords at shadows, it just means that they look around more and peer into shadows more intently. It's harder to sneak up on them to take them out. You need to find another way to deal with them. You might have an extra flash bomb available for instance. Or you could just find an alternate route that bypasses that NPC. In Thief 2 there's a newbie sergeant in the police HQ who is so eager that he jumps at anything. It's best to steer clear of that area altogether.
>>332292351
MGSV was kinda lacking in terms of stealth because the game did not have interesting places to sneak into.
Still liked it but it's not really about stealth anymore.
>>332292257
>Gentlemen, how do we save the stealth genre?
You stop treating your players like controller-holding idiots.
>>332292257
Is it really that bad?
>>332306340
Oh hey
It's out
>>332306045
NEETs are idea guys
idea guys need networking
NEETs don't network
it's a closed loop.
>>332306648
>NEETs don't network
They've all the skills they need to network, only they apply them here rather than anywhere of value.
Regardless, focus on putting your ideas out into the world in a meaningful way, either you'll find the people you need, or they'll find you.
There needs to be a game where you play as a panty thief
>>332308378
Close, but there is a stealth gamejapanese of courseabout taking pics of panties with a cam.
