Are 2D character sprites going to be lost forever?
It seems like increasingly, developers are using 3D models for things even when it ends up looking worse. Off the top of my head, Phoenix Wright and Fire Emblem. While the latter still has 2D character portraits, I don't think anyone would say the battles look better with 3D models instead of 2D sprites. And Phoenix Wright completely removed 2D anything, and in my opinion suffered for it.
Why? Surely they aren't stupid enough to think a 3D model is automatically better. Sometimes it is yes, but not always.
Thinking about it, another game that would look better with 2D sprites instead of 3D models, Mighty Number 9
>>332249053
DEAD THREAD
>>332250118
>>332249053
It's just cheaper.
>>332250990
I get that, but it's it really the case that companies are willing to spend money on everything BUT aesthetics? Aesthetics are theoretically the most important part when it comes to selling well, since people usually make gut decisions based on looks
Ace Attorney Dual Destinies is better off for it, though. The fact that they use 3D models means they can make far more visually impressive animations at less than half the time needed to make a 2D sprite.
Case in point: https://youtu.be/LxviK42a_qk?t=10m52s
>>332251590
I guess it comes down to opinions, but I really don't think it looks better at all. Lengthy animations are nice, but overall I think it looks worse.
>>332251791
And why do you think that? The sprite animations only really looked good in the first game's fifth case and AJ, since those had competent artists, and even then they were pretty short and choppy..
Dai Gyakuten Saiban had pretty good 3D models.
>>332251984
They just look better to me, I don't really know what you want me to say. Short animations don't really bug me in this case, it's basically a glorified VN, and I'm staring at the characters for most of the game, I like 2D sprites. 3D models to me end up feeling pretty soulless in the cases where they replace 2D sprites. Sure, animations are smoother now, but the entire look of it isn't how I really like it anymore.
I'll admit that the models in Phoenix Wright are well done, but I still prefer the look and feel of the sprites.
>>332252605
I'm getting the impression you prefer 2D to 3D on principle alone.
Project X Zone 2 and a lot of the SRW games still use 2d sprites, although in SRW's case, I hear they're traced over from 3d models they animated.
>>332249053
convenience/cost effectiveness.
Its the same reason All animated movies are 3D and noone makes 2D animation anymore.
because you have to make individual frames of animation, where just moving around a 3D model like a puppet is easier.
also, it's what people expect to see. Just like Hollywood shoehorns CG into everything, (see the Thing remake) because to Hollywood, when people see CG, that = "blockbuster"
its a combination of cost, effort, and marketing.
>>332252746
No, he just cares more about the aesthetic and design than animation. Which means he has good taste.
>>332252746
No, I just think that there are a lot of times where developers simply go for 3D because it's cheaper, not because it looks good.
Fire Emblem for example, do you honestly think that the dry, repetitive battles now look better than the dynamic, animated battles that the predecessors had?
There are a million instances where 2D sprites make zero sense and shouldn't be used, my issue is that the remaining instances where sprites DO make sense are all basically being replaced by models that basically function as a sprite would.
Phoenix Wright is perhaps a bad example because you're right, they're well done and I'm probably in a minority of people who prefer the sprites, but I just think that the trend of replacing sprites with not as well done models is concerning. Or maybe I'm only looking at the wrong games and there's still plenty of sprite based stuff out there, I dunno.
>>332253778
I do think FE's 3D animations look like hot garbage but that has more to do with the animations and the models themselves being bad and not the fact they're 3D.
>>332252605
>to me
>"soulless"
So you're one of THOSE people. There is no point in discussing anything with those people.
>>332251229
People like 3D though. It feels more modern, only some people who really like the 2D aesthetic will be opposed. Most consumers find 3D to be better.
>>332253961
I guess what I'm trying to get across isn't necessarily that I think 3D models always look bad, it's that I think a large percentage of the time, they exist solely as a time and money saving shortcut instead of as an intentional design decision. They're models now instead of sprites because someone saw that area as a place that could cut costs by hiring less artists and having them work less.
The idea of something like Advance Wars getting the same treatment as FE isn't a pleasant thought. If they invested time and energy into making the models good, and animating them in new and better ways, it would be one thing. But imagining a scenario where they would simply replace these sprites with identical 3D models seems more likely, and would look worse. Maybe we're simply in an age where sprites aren't an option/needed anymore, but I just wish that decision was based more in design and less in costs.
>>332254235
Why take issue with "to me", are you expecting me to present scientific fact in a thread about aesthetics?
And soulless is a completely valid criticism. No one wants a generic, boring, unpolished look.
>>332254241
Maybe good 3D looks more modern, but I feel like I see too much stuff that just looks like bad 90s CGI these days.
>>332255063
There is a certain level of detail that's lacking in Dual Destinies's 3D models compared to the 2D sprites. "Soulless" is kind of flowery-sounding, but I do think there's a clear gap in the emotion conveyed between the 2D and the 3D here.
>>332255501
The only real difference I can tell is that the head is titled down in the 3D version, so he isn't looking straight ahead, like in the 2D version.
>>332255731
You might have autism. Or prosopagnosia.
>>332255501
>>332255731
It's mainly in his eyes I think, it looks like there's nothing at all going on behind the eyes on the right. It looks too much like a 3D model and not enough like a person who is supposed to be saying something dramatic.
Probably a small nitpick, but I just notice these things and find it hard to ignore them.
>>332255501
>>332255842
I mean aside from minor shit, like different looking hair, skin color, etc.
I can also tell that there isn't as much overlap between the brow and the eye in the 3D version, which makes him look less angry.
Danganronpa V3 still has 2D portraits.
Etrian Odyssey V still has 2D portraits.
>>332256036
Something about the mouth in particular bothers me. I felt that Dual Destinies's mouths were kind of weird in general, especially in animation.
>>332255731
>>332256046
>>332255501
>cool ass noire look shading on the left
>bland as fuck barely any shading on the right
Ew.
>>332254785
>>332254785
I agree anon. But 2bh i just like 2D games better. I grew up with them. I like how they move and look when well done.
Garou Mark of the Wolves is better animated than many games today for example. Goes for 3d games as well.
>>332256886
Probably also part of it, lack of shading.
Kind of encompasses my issue with the inherent laziness of models at this level, you can just make it and be done and most people won't notice/care, as opposed to having to draw something out and consider things like emotion and shading.
This is really mostly a handheld issue though, as consoles and PCs are powerful enough to support very detailed and well made models, whereas handhelds still have a pretty limited amount of power comparatively.
>>332249053
I just started VLR and the voice acting and 3d models are so off putting. I wish it just had the text chipping sounds like 999 so badly
>>332249053
3D has soooo many advantages that it's really tough to justify not using it.
If you want to change artistic direction in the middle of a 2D game, you're p much shit out of luck.
It also is probably discouraging to real 2D pixel artists that absolute dogshit like Undertale is "good enough." And Undertale really does look like fucking dogshit, but "ironically xD."
>crits will never feel this hype again.
>>332259210
It hurts, it really does
Because 2D sprites are hard.
You only need to make a 3D model once.
>>332255501
PLvsPW and Great Ace Attorney look really good, though. I love the use of it's camera angles, the fact the characters actually interact with evidence, and the animations are pretty fluid and can get much longer than some of the 2D games. GAA also uses mocap, though but it's still impressive. This really bad gif doesn't do it justice.
>>332260204
PLvsAA can look pretty stiff at times. Wright's animations especially
It's cheaper
It's more efficient
It's easier
It's less time consuming
And there is a incredibly tiny maybe even nonexistant group of people that will not buy a game because it is 3D.
This is just how it is anon.
>>332255501
Animator here. Animating 3d models is way easier and faster than animating, but the actual movements will never look as dramatic or impactful as if you drew it.
Then in the topic of lighting and shading. That's almost always done in engine, so the brights and darks are boringly photo realistic. If you hand drew the frames you would draw the shading and the contrasts in color would be way more pronounced like Apollo in that screen shot
>>332260372
Wright's model, well mostly his face is pretty odd looking, but I don't think the animations themselves are bad.
I actually replayed PLvPW a couple of weeks ago just to get a look at how it looked and I was actually surprised with how well it looks, at least when compared to the 2D games. I only took a quick glace at different chapters but I didn't notice anything out of place that make it look stiff to me; there's that Maya with the pipe gif that sometimes crops up here every so often but it's never anything noticeable.
>>332249053
This is much better than 2D and VR will be much better than this.
If 3D is so much easier and cheaper to produce, how is that the anime industry makes so much fucking 2D animation every year with (relatively) low profits?
I mean why can't Disney or Pixar do that? Also see movies like "5 cm per second", good quality and low budget.
>>332261334
because it sells in japan you fucking retard
>>332261381
I still think it's weird how most western cartoons are in 2D and every single animation movie is in 3D.
>>332261334
The frames of animations is pretty low and they use a lot of cost cutting corners like panning the camera or have very little animation except for the very important scenes where they blow the budget.
>>332261458
japan seem to be more receptive to 2d animations with more mature themes
its like you said by western "cartoons". most people associate cartoons with children.
as for why 3d movies are more popular I'm not sure
>>332261334
Anime companies are funded by the publishers of the source work to essentially create an advert for the source. That's why the only important part is that it looks good, and it doesn't matter that much if the BDs don't sell.
It's not like they haven't tried to use 3dcg, it's often used for cars and mechs and the like, but since 3dcg is often animated and made for much higher framerates than the anime is made at, it always looks like complete shit, with few exceptions.
>>332261334
>If 3D is so much easier and cheaper to produce, how is that the anime industry makes so much fucking 2D animation every year with (relatively) low profits?
If you haven't noticed most anime half asses things like cars and other solid moving objects. Some anime even goes so far as to make the characters themselves CG in some scenes while hand drawing them in others.
The reason more CG isn't used is because it looks like UTTER SHIT 90% of the time, but that doesn't stop some money grubbing japs.
>>332261664
>blow the budget
oh they are blowing something all right
it's possible to use 3d assets to faithfully recreate 2d sprite style. it just takes an art director who gives a shit about it and isn't a pushover.
see: guilty gear xrd
>>332262089
So much work went into the keyframe animation of those models though that it's probably just cheaper to draw everything at that point.
>>332256193
>Etrian Odyssey V still has 2D portraits.
You mean the story characters and NPCs? They've already scrapped Nagasawa's artwork for those retarded 3D sprites, the rest won't be very far off.
>>332262783
Losing Himukai's 2D character art would effectively kill the series. I'd like to think that they'd know better than to ever go that far, but who knows?
>>332259210
This
I enjoy the 3D fire emblems but it's not the same.
>Beautifully animated drawn sprites.
>Sells terribly to NSMBW (not to knock the game or series, since they're still good) with 3D Graphics.
Granted SMB was always more popular then Wario Land but still.
>>332262295
never underestimate how expensive 2d animators are. even disney got rid of their 2d animation department because of cost and we'll probably never see 2d animation of that caliber ever again from a production studio.
pretty sure most hand animation is outsourced to korea at this point.
The problem is that not only do mainstream morons prefer 3D, 2D is also more expensive and time-consuming. There is no point for any non-suicidal dev to make 2D sprites in this age.
3D is cheaper and easier on hardware that can handle it
>>332268173
2D is easier on the hardware.
>>332249053
At least Danganronpa V3 will have 2D sprites.
https://youtu.be/V4-PL1dQWeU
This series still uses 2d art.
>>332249053
They're becoming less common, but I don't think they'll ever go away for ever.
Games with entirely 2d components will probably become a rarity.
As long as someone wants it, it'll exist.
I think skullgirls is a good example, since they could have done the animations in 3d, but went with 2d animation even though it took more time.
>>332268078
I like 5 better than 3
But damn SF3 was a beautiful game
>>332259210
All they need is fancier effects, over-the-top animations, and effective use of sudden camera angles
>>332260970
>but the actual movements will never look as dramatic or impactful as if you drew it.
Why is that?
2D isn't cheap, but there will always be people who will do it "for the art", which is what you will probably be the best you will get.
>>332273182
Muh soul
They can but the budget isn't high enough
>>332251590
PWvPL 3D was better.
3D in AA games is still shit tho.
>>332261334
Because 2D animation is tradition and culture in Japan. Also because it syncs well with their manga series.
>>332255501
Artist here.
It's lighting. Lighting makes mood.
The contrast on the character's face creates tension. Looks like a hot spotlight is on him.
That model though looks airbrushed with completely flat lighting so it lacks the drama.
>>332273182
In 2D you can exagerate proportions and it won't feel odd.
It's very difficult to do the same in 3D without some sort of "uncanney valley" effect
>>332274943
There was an article about how Darkstalkers really pours on the deformation effects with it's animations and as such looks goddamn amazing for it's time. I can't remember where it was, though.
>>332274268
>PWvPL 3D was better.
No it wasn't. The only 3D models looked pretty bad all in all (especially when you compare it side-by-side to DD) and the framerate dropped massively whenever any noticeable animation was attempted
It was decent for a "first attempt" though, I guess.
>ZTD will probably have even worse art than VLRI'm still going to buy it tho
>>332249053
3D modelling is faster than creating sprites for big companies.
But sprites are easier and cheaper to create for indie and smaller devs.
It pretty much boils down to that.
Also, allow me to disagree with you. As much as I love sprites, AA 3D models are really good, those animations are top notch. You also have games like GG Xrd, which makes 3D models look like 2D ones.
You're playing the wrong genre
>>332249053
Pokemon falls into this category too desu
>>332266097
>>332262295
They stated that the reason they transitioned to 3D with GG was because they wanted to keep the 2D appeal in BB and not have to compete with themselves.
>>332259210
>Psssh...nothing personnel...kid...
>>332279184
this desu
>>332279184
>fighting games
I'm too casual for them senpai, I'm sorry.
Not forever. But no big studio who used to produce the best quality shit back in the day would risk it these days. Hence why Square Enix, Capcom, Nintendo, SNK etc etc have all switched to 3D. Best we get now are they love letter typed situations like Vanillaware and Lab Zero. But since they don't quite have the money there are negatives with that like Vanillaware's lower amount of frames (imagine if a Vanillaware game had no/minimal tweening all hand drawn animations), or needing to get additional money like Lab Zero and Kickstarter. It's just not really feasible for Square to make FFXV with sprites or Capcom make SFV with them or Nintendo make the next Mario with sprites. Too much of a risk really.
Quite sad actually. I do hope however that a GGxrd style of doing it becomes easier/less expensive in the future.
>>332251590
>MH4U/MHX font
i only now noticed this
>>332249249
I've been saying that since day fucking one.
Actually before then because I was pissed that X7 and X8 went full fucking retard with 3d models and backgrounds that portray hitboxes as well as Carrot Top playing Al Sharpton.
>>332259210
This. I can't enjoy Fire Emblems anymore. Thank fucking God Nintendo gave me Sacred Stones for my 3DS.
>>332249249
Not enough money
