Gentlemen, how do we save the RTS genre?
It not. You can thank MOBA for this
THE LEAF OBEYS
>>332005881
stop trying to balance so many ridiculous numbers of units and techs for once
any good RTS game needs like 6 units, max
>>332005881
>battle realms
i miss RTS games.... i've always been shit at them, but i enjoyed the single player alot.
>RTS has been dead and rotting since 2003
>people still trying to "save" it
>>332005881
you can't. im pretty convinced with the flops of homoeworld and grey poo that it's dead.
ettimi
>>332006287
This pretty much. Grey Goo was ok but RTS is dead as fuck.
>>332006071
Is this bait?
By killing off starcraft and making AoE IV
>>332005881
Let it rot.
>>332005881
You can't.
Probably address the 'real' issue as to why people don't like them? APM.
I've played shitloads of RTS games and i love them, but i can see why my friends don't enjoy knowing and repeating the same optimal building / pathing placements vs different races as well as likely tactics and what i should build to counter them. Doesn't matter if you teched and built 5 perfect counters to a guys 20 units because that dude is so much faster than you he got 20 units out while you're sitting with your dick in your hand with 5.
Basically for the layman; who you want to get interested for the genre to thrive. The entire game boils down to how fast you can click / use keybinds at the start of the game.
Funnily enough, MOBAs do exactly that, probably why they're booming like RTS games once were. Market shift son.
>>332005881
people complain about the new rts games because they are dull or didn't improved compared to older rts games
the dull part, i get it
grey goo is a good example, gets boring real fast
about the improvements, i think they should exist, yes, but not that much... rts already hit perfection (for me), changing the formula a lot will probably declare a new rts game a dead game
>>332005881
Make it more about strategy and less about tactical micromanagement. Ideally you shouldn't be allowed to control individual units.
>>332007446
so what a developer can do to fix the APM problem? i can't see a pratical solution to that...
>>332007802
>>332007734
>Ideally you shouldn't be allowed to control individual units.
>>332007802
There's a reason it's been dead for over a decade at this point.
>>332007446
This. I don't think micro-intensive games shouldn't be made, but I'd like to see slower paced games where positioning, overall strategy and adaptability are the core of the formula to success, rather than the smaller part of it, like in, say, Starcraft.
>>332007802
make it turn based
>>332007829
Total war with only auto resolve?
>>332007921
PACHTER
LEAVE
>>332005881
>grinding yin to make your heroes OP
good times.
>>332007829
>>332007985
Meant for the mad cunts your replying to
>>332007734
>>332007829
so you want something like total war where you control a big group of units?
>>332007446
I like playing CoH2 online for this reason, it's pretty casual and the game doesn't have much macro required. Warcraft 3 was also a bit like this, it was very relaxed on macro.
>>332007889
Play SupCom:FA on FA:Forever, that's pretty much how it plays out.
>>332008113
I only played the first total war game and only the strategic map so I dunno.
>>332007802
Good AI that unfucks the simple stuff.
Preventing idiotic shit like Starcraft's mineral micro by making workers automatically pick the best paths.
Having units do some simple micro when not being babysat by the player.
>>332005881
Does anyone here know of a final fantasy game with a trailer of them looking at a notice board and there is 3 cards and the first one is a squid and the cutscene goes to them fighting a giant squid? Friend is telling me about it and we can't remember the name
>>332007802
>so what a developer can do to fix the APM problem?
Try and play some Homeworld/Homeworld 2 and tell me if APM means shit.
>>332008178
>it was very relaxed on macro.
peon detected.
>>332007802
A mix between Company of heroes and Total War on a bigger map. You control individual platoons and focus on positioning them to retain control of the map and its resources (roads, cover, elevation, a macguffin). Units have much fewer active abilities or have them automated to reduce focus on micro. Codable orders like Dragon Age 1 did, where you can tell a unit of mortars to only fire if X Y Z units come into range, while ignoring A and B and retreating when C shows up.
People who don't want macro dont want strategy
>>332007889
>>332007446
Im not saying you both are wrong but in this case you have to say farwell to the classic rts game design like C&C,AoE or Starcraft.
Then again I totally think a total war esque gameplay is viable. Couldn´t you just go the homeworld route though with the option to pause the game ?
It doesn't need saving. Just play FAF.
>>332006071
Fuck off cunt
>>332005881
you can't pc gaming is dead and only console ports or mobile trash
console gaming is dying
mobile is free to play trash.
>>332008505
I wouldn't mind, the genre hasn't gone anywhere since those classics for a reason I think. The limits of it have been pushed as far as it could, save for minor improvements there and there. I'm not saving they're bad games, mind you, much to the contrary.
well, first off any RTS with 3d graphics is just shite by definition
>>332005881
SERPENT KENJI DID NOTHING WRONG
>>332008381
>Codable orders like Dragon Age 1 did
Go and play some Warlords:Battlecry 3 son.
>units have behaviors
check
>units have formations
check
>units have complex paths
check
>units level up
check
>heroes
check
>spells
check
It is really sad how few of us know that game even exists.
Add bigger explosions (and more dakka)
>>332008692
no you are shite mate
TA was here, suck my D-gun
>>332008692
>age of mythology
>shit
get out
>>332008692
>homeworld
>Battle Realms
>Earth2160
Do i keep going or you kill yourself now?
>>332008505
Like i said, i fucking love RTS games and still do, but when people like OP ask why it isn't popular, to me it is glaringly obvious that high levels of micromanagement and APM drive away the non-hyper competitive players leaving you with "RTS IS A DEAD GENRE!"
Also i agree with >>332007514 to an extent. I would say the Genre has been pretty much perfected. All we can really do now is branch away from 'core' RTS games. Maybe try treating RTS like Strategy and let Action RTS, Grand RTS, Squad RTS or any myriad of combinations thrive rather than trying to stick with a formula that pisses off 90% of the average video game player these days.
>>332008750
>Warlords:Battlecry 3
I'll check it out. Is it fun in MP too?
>>332008692
>dawn of war (not 2) shit
Oi you fucker
>>332007889
Like this?
Is the only way to get replies in a topic about RTS these days is to talk about how dead they are?
>>332009030
>I'll check it out. Is it fun in MP too?
If you find people to play with sure.
why would you want to?
>>332009081
Would you prefer 400+ posts ofinnane SC2 vs WC3 based shitposting while some retard screams about Rise of Nations in the background?
>>332009076
Maybe a bit less focused on macro and massing units. Making units that expendable creates a non stop chaos that's kinda of boring after a while.
>>332008956
Well I love it as well ...I just don´t see a future for the "classical" rts. You could release a rts that beats grey goo,deserts of kharak and act of aggression in every aspect and I don´t think it would have "huge" financial sucess.
The exception could be the revival of c&c or a "good" new supcom etc.
>>332007734
You're looking for a different genre. Don't ruin rts even further.
>>332009104
Where the fuck does stellaris go on this list
>>332009885
its 4x m8
>>332009104
i heard company of heroes 2 got significantly better with expansions?
I certainly dislike the 'action' portion of RTS. I love action games, and I love TBT/S, but when playing a RTS game I don't want it to be action-y, if it makes sense.
For example, let's say you have a squad standing still, and a projectile is approaching their average position. Typically in a RTS the most effective thing to do in order to avoid damage would be to select each individual unit and make it move in the opposite direction to the line that connects them to the point where the missile is going to land.
That's just stupid. It requires no strategy. It doesn't happen in real life, where soldiers just stand still while being fired upon, waiting for a commanding overseer to tell them to take cover.
Not sure what the best solution would be. But it makes sense to me that just like there is an "auto-attack" in most games, there should be an "auto-cover" (which you might disable, or customize in some way).
That applies to everything, not just taking cover. The less micro, the less action. The less action, the more important strategy is.
>>332009967
yeah fair enough my bad
>>332009104
>Stronghold 2
>Not Crusaider
I'll tell you how to save the genre it starts with stop attempting to make it reports like sc2. A good strategy game will always lend it's self too competitive gaming if it is well balanced with multiple strategies interesting meta gameplay. Perfect example of this Warcraft 3 , dawn of war, c&c and age of empires.
>>332005881
Warcraft 3 literally buried the genre
>>332008834
Fuck your D-Gun, he's my C-Bomb
>>332009552
Sins comes to mind with the giant capships that gain experience. That game is all macro though.
Perhaps a game where units are mostly specialists, and the generalists cost a disproportionate amount of resources?
>>332010164
Company of Heroes 2 also suffers from We made Esport please stream on twitch syndrom
>>332010198
How many genres has Blizzard managed to kill now?
>>332009104
>No KKND2, No Buy
SupCom but with less ridiculous build order nonsense and no need to juggle three tech trees at once
I like FA but learning the game is just a pain in the ass
Stop focusing on online play
there , i fixed it
>>332007889
Positioning, strategy, and adaptability are essential for Starcraft (especially LotV). It's fine to want a slower paced experience, but I keep seeing people say this kind of stuff about Starcraft and other RTS that just isn't true. People constantly overestimate APM's importance on /v/; you can be a very high rated player with minimal APM.
But >>332007446 is right in that people perceive it this way despite the reality. I think that perception needs to change for RTS to come back more than the gameplay itself.
>>332009823
>don't look for strategy in a strategy game
???
>>332005881
Probably do the opposite of whatever /v/ thinks we should do
>>332010846
>micro is too hard for me
>I think I should decide how strategy games should work
>>332009104
At least post the version with "Purgatory." This version is just shit.
>>332010823
Isn't half the APM for starcraft (the original and BW) the shitty pathfinding in the first place?
>>332005881
separate the micromanagement of resources tech trees etc from the actual battles like total war or that new 40k game
>>332010823
Starcraft is about moving your counters into the enemy the right way and thinking about 60 things per minute. APM is absolutely vital, or else your econ will be slower, you'll be less aware of where your enemy is and what they're doing, and you'll get caught out of position when the action starts. Its strategy is about quick-thinking, fast reactions and the ability to quickly manage a hundred things at once. It's much closer to the kind of "strategy" one might employ in a martial arts fight, or an armed brawl, rather than the slow, methodically and calculated strategy of a military campaign. Tactics, rather than strategy, I could say.
>>332011262
What fucking strategy games? The whole 5 of them that came out in the past decade and flopped miserably? You can play your gookclick games if you want, they're not going anywhere, but some people would like to see different things from real time strategy games.
>>332011385
Pretty much. SC2 is perfectly playable ate around 100 effective APM. People who bitch about the required speed dont understand how the builds and how they interact anyway so best ignore those folks
>>332005881
WE HAVE NO MORE RICE
>>332010846
Completely removing unit control is strategy? Just play Majesty.
I think what you guys actually want is just "Armchair General - the Genre." That's fine, but it ain't gonna save RTS.
>>332005881
FOR THE DRAGON.
>ctrl+f
>No Myth.
You fucking failed. Again.
http://strawpoll.me/7184596
RTS is a twitchy action-based genre that pretends to be strategy for thinkers. TBS is real strategy, and personally I'm glad that koreans and shitkids don't have the patience to ruin them for me.
>>332011808
>Completely removing unit control is strategy?
Yes, that's the definition of strategy. Unit micromanagement is tactics.
>>332011630
APM is certainly important, my point is it's not as overwhelming as you claim and doesn't actually overshadow those aspects of gameplay like you claim (except in perception). Like >>332011639
says, you can easily play SC2 at a high level with 100 APM.
>>332011936
I remember playing Green Berets that came with that game. I had no fucking idea what I was doing when I played it as a kid and it was difficult too.
>>332012338
>>332012232
>muh "no STRATEGY in real time STRATEGY"
Ya'll are the worst. Just go play TBS and leave us alone
>>332012401
I never claimed it overshadowed it, I claimed the game was too micro-intensive. Making a 100 meaningful clicks per 60 seconds is ridiculously demanding for what amounts to, in my opinion, a boring ridiculous and unrealistic brawl. I'd rather methodically manage an army over a varied terrain and have fights that last more than 30 seconds before a 300% casualty rate for the losing side and a 150% rate for the winning side.
Hlep me /v/
how I do git gud in American conquest? is the goal of this thing spawn as many units as possible and send them all to a certain death the best strategy?
>>332007446
>>332007889
So much this. I played Starcraft a lot back in the day, probably close to 3000 ladder games total. Best rank I ever got in single player was low platinum despite watching every fucking filtersc strategy video out there, my APM never went over 90 tops.
Finally I got burnt out from the abomination that is mirror matches. I saw LotV coming out, got excited to return to the game, and what do they give us? MORE GODDAMNED CHEESE AND MICRO.
When I play an RTS I want to focus on the over strategy: my army comp, my economy, and my positioning. What I don't want to do is have to micro 50 fucking marines/second to avoid some cunts baneling blasts, or defend my base because some faggot keeps dropping a pre-deployed siege tank from the sky, and then picking it up as soon as I respond.
Blizzard unfortunately disagreed. SC2 in there eyes is hemorrhaging players because theres not enough 'pick one unit up with a dropship then drop them again horseshit' micro.
Love RTS, the new homeworld sucks, gray goo was meh, so I'm doing my own thing and wanted to see if I'm wasting my time:
It's an RPG/RTS where you can take metal/coin/weapons from each and every unity enemy or neutral.
Also the AI by default is quite stupid so you have to design it which allows you to completely play hands off if you don't like to micro, to create unit's AI you grab pieces of behaviors from enemies (think mind probe) and neutrals.
>>332013809
>>332012860
Can someone just make the game you guys actually want so you'll stop complaining about apm? You get your game and I don't have to read your bitter posts
Remove micro. That's all.
>>332005881
There is already the savior of the RTS genre, and it's name is Wargame: Red Dragon.
You just have to get good to play it. But that is the be all, end all of RTS and the real reason rts is a dead genre isbase buildingsearch your feelings, you know it is true.
>>332014125
>thread about making RTS not shit
>people give suggestions for making RTS not shit
>"waahh, stop invading my safe space"
>>332014215
Nope, try again senpai :^)
>>332014125
Its mindless and unrewarding unless you're some autistic Korean shitcunt.
When an actual general plans a strategy his focus isn't on 'ill tell my fuckwit marines where to move individually so they don't blow themselves up.' His strategy is on the overall grand maneuvers.
I'm pissed because Starcraft has become less and less about understanding the game and coming up with cunning plays, than it is about twitch reaction or some bullshit unstoppable cheese.
>>332014125
Fancy words coming from the cunts who never say anything except to defend APM. These threads are always the same, people wanting to ditch APM, people being nostalgic and recommending games, and people whining because >muh micro
You never see anyone talk about how intricate and great APM intensive games are, their mechanics or how to improve them. You only endlessly hear about how X sucks because it's the wrong brand of APM and about how RTS are dead.
>>332014264
>implying these suggestions will actually make RTS not shit.
Wanting low APM games is fine, btw. I'm just tired of people who really want turn based games whining that RTS doesn't cater solely to them in RTS threads.
>>332014527
>>332014125
>>332005881
Furthermore, to return to the OP, RTS is dying because the retarded APM requirement makes it inaccessible to damn near everyone out there.
Those that do play at lower APMs, even if they understand the core mechanics dont have the reaction time to pull off anything remotely resembling what happens in pro-play (which seems to be more and more what SC2 caters towards).
the new 40k game looks good
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La97j3EUtME
>>332014890
I don't want turn based games, I have tons of them, since they still get releases, unlike RTS. It says a fucking lot when autism simulators sold for 80$ gets more sales than the fucking genre because the only thing the vocal fanbase cares about is the fucking micro and Korean cock. See the fucking Starcraft general on /vg/ for examples of that last part.
>>332009104
here >>332011368
Make another good SupCom
>>332009104
Doesn't even include earth 2150, delete this from your folder and never post it again.
>>332009076
this is a myth, competitive supcom was all based around early microing to get and hold mass points
the larger scale just meant you needed more micro to control said points
Make unit AI, research, scouting, etc. more autonomous, put a limit on how many times you can give a command per minute.
Damn, nostalgia hit. Which game should i play? I used to love Empire Earth, AoE 2, 3, Starcraft 1, Dune: Battle for Earth (one of my favorites), Total Annahilation
Something Oldschool RTSish, but from last couple of years that will remind me of old time?
>>332014527
I realize you guys just want to send in all your troop orders by telegram while you eat cheetos on the couch, but give me a break here. You're not playing the top level general in most RTS games - I know that bothers you, but it's the truth. And yes, yes, I know, "but anon, then it should be called TACTICS not STRATEGY" Well, maybe, but that's not what it's called for historical reasons.
If you hate SC because it's too fast for you that's fine. I just hate how damn condescending so many of the TBS wannabes are because it's not living up to their Dr. Strangelove fantasies of what an RTS should be.
>>332014597
I mean, I agree with you.
>>332015338
Thank you, anon
Anyone else wish RTS games had more macro control? Like say with CnC Tiberium dawn where you can make these waypoint paths and be able to send platoons via these paths.
Also, what do you guys think of transports in RTS? For me I almost never use them because they require too much micro to use effectively. Would love to see a proper transport system.
>Create the pickup and drop points for a transport
>Units that go into the pickup zone automatically get picked up by the transport unit
>then they are dropped off to the dropoff point automatically.
>>332016295
supcom and ferry system
>>332016456
Does it? I never really used transports since I struggle with the alyx AI as is. That and a lot of the maps don't seem to be designed in a way where you can transport unless your already on top of the enemy base.
As for some constructive criticism on how to save the RTS genre, I would suggest looking back to a little known game from 10 years ago called Paraworld, and some old AoE mechanics.
So if you look at the attached image you can see that to the left of the screen the UI has an icon for every single unit in your army, allowing individual selection or drag select. This greatly streamlined keeping track of your troops, but it was a much lower body count game than many current RTSs.
My suggestion would be a similar visual solution, but based off control groups. Allow a larger number of control groups that can be arranged visually. Clicking an individual control group would spread it out to show the unit statuses within that group.
Allow rally points to be associated with a control group, instead of only flagging individual points or units. This allows production buildings to rally new troops straight to wherever your forces are.
Allow auto cast of all unit abilities (or setting conditions; i.e. only use area of effect on light armor).
Allow formations like in Age of Empires, with a few basic options, and the ability to create your own more in-depth pre-sets and save them across games (i.e. infantry surrounds armor, cloaked units on both flanks).
Allow pre-set behaviors such as offensive, defensive, or even retreat to a pre-set point.
Also players like economy, its always nice to see a robust selection of non-military buildings, as well as incentives/options to trade with or support your allies.
That's my 2 cents. At a high skill cap APM would likely still trump pre-setting behaviors or formations, but it would take away from new players being hamstrung by APM/cheese and enable them to understand actual balance and develop strategies of their own.
>>332006287
Told ya guys. C&C Generals ruined it for all times for everyone. yet you all are still saying it's good.
>>332016689
well I used it a lot in the campaign where I had to go across the map quite a bit.
>>332016781
That is a funny way to say Dota.
>>332005881
Build more pylons.
Why did RTSes largely do away with walls, gates, and all that?
>>332014125
> Why is this genre not as popular.
> "Well there's this core mechanic that has been necessary / the focus of every game in the genre, maybe that has something to do with it.
> WHY EVEN BOTHER POSTING IF YOU DON'T LIKE RTS HGHAHGHABGEBBGALGBB
You're a moron.
>>332017282
Pathfinding is a bitch to work with. Walls and gates just complicate things. Plus usually they are either useless or very overpowered.
>>332017282
This probably has something to do with why FPS games got rid of 'camping.'
I fucking love camping (not corner camping, but holding an area on the map) and FPS devs just completely got rid of this as a concept.
The last game I had fun camping in was MW2.
Devs apparently hate when people sit still.
>>332017525
Completely agreed.
>>332017496
But they make my base look nice.
I like how Tiberium Sun did them.
>>332014597
>You never see anyone talk about how intricate and great APM intensive games are
Because waxing nostalgic about the 'Glory Days' is somehow more infantile and circlejerky than complaining about APM? Do you really want to sit here and listen to me talk about how much i enjoyed playing dual crypt rushes or Necrowagon UD in WC3 when i was 15?
People ask "Why are RTS not as popular" then people respond, and you're baffled as to why they would respond that way?
>>332017702
Too bad walls usually don't work in RTS. Part of the problem is that they require too much time to set up and usually they end up not doing much. Your better off spending that time microing troops and such. plus they require too much maintenance when parts of the wall go down.
post best game
>>332017417
My issue isn't with people who want less APM. It would probably make the genre more accessible. It's with condescending assholes shitting up these threads with cries of "gookclick" all the time because they think APM is the only thing that matters in current games.
Alsogit gud
Command & Conquer 3 really was choice.
Turn based strategy games are more fun.
>>332018104
My fucking nigga
>>332018125
If you haven't noticed, there is only ONE (1) current RTS game that has any sort of playercount / viewerbase on twitch, and that's SC2.
So for all intents and purposes, APM is the only thing that matters in the only currently played RTS game.
>>332014215
I love base building so maybe what's needed is a very focused game that serves each player type.
>>332011936
Myth is one of the better RTS games simply because it all boils down to positioning and maneuvering rather than who can click faster.
>>332018125
Realistically if we're talking about modern day RTS' we're talking SC2 and the basics of SC2 boils down to 'Do you know your 3 likely counters / what your opponent will likely be building because it's the most 'meta' way to play right now?' if Yes, the game is entirely decided on who has the faster base building / resource collection aka APM.
Not saying it's the be all and end all, but it's like a solid 90% of the competitive sphere, from Bronze to Platinum, with some basic changes in what you're likely to come up against, the core game is always the same.
This isn't to say that i don't enjoy it, but it's so obvious to me as the reason why the average plebola (read: The people who need to be baited into playing for the genre to thrive) doesn't like the games.
>>332009104
But where is Men of War?
I kinda want to see a modern/future Stronghold style game.
>>332008236
I think you've posted in the wrong thread but I think it might be FFXIV.
>>332018329
I'm saying that APM is not all that matters if you actually play the game.
The *perception* that APM is all that matters in SC2 is certainly real (as evidenced by this thread) and I'm sure you're right that it's a big factor in RTS genre popularity.
>>332018504
Again I think that assessment is exaggerated, but I basically agree that the "average plebola" sees it that way.
>>332006264
Every time i try to play this fucking game my mouse cursor always feels floaty as shit and doesn't scale properly with the resolution, does anyone know how to fix this shit? I've tried everything and looked all over google to no avail.
>>332012547
No one replied to your cool Kohan post so I will.
>>332014112
>the new homeworld sucks
It goes beyond sucking
>They release DLC
>Is a new side
>Actually is a new unit, two new abilities and some aesthetics changes they insist in calling "a new side"
>>332005881
Fix the multiplayer.
>Playing against the AI
>You get to build through the tech tree and make use of all the fun units, interesting tactics, and all the different things you can do and still win.
>Playing against other players
>Whoever can spam this 1 unit more will win. Games never go further down the tech tree unless players agree to some abitrary "no rush" rule. Even then it is still about spamming 1 or 2 units to win.
>>332019398
I heard that you can't even play as the Taiidan in the campaign. I won't buy it solely because of that.
>>332019398
I saw that, it is incomprehensible to me that they would release a 'faction' for a game that gets less than 100 players per day signing on.
I heard the skirmish AI fucking sucks ass too, I think this kills the HW franchise for good.
>>332019517
I am talking about Deserts
>>332019782
Oh that one.
>>332019434
when playing sports did you tell the other team to stop trying to score and pass the ball to you so you can try and take a shot?
why would anyone NOT spam 1 unit if you suck so bad you can't stop that?
>>332017971
>Do you really want to sit here and listen to me talk about how much i enjoyed playing dual crypt rushes or Necrowagon UD in WC3 when i was 15?
Yeah I do, I'd also like to hear about why you found it fun, and what could be improved in order to make an even better RTS experience. If everyone who responded to "less micro" posts with "buh muh micro" replied with "I had fun with micro-intensive game in this and that way", these threads would be a lot less terrible.
>>332020149
>why would anyone NOT spam 1 unit if you suck so bad you can't stop that?
>Game has hundreds of different units.
>only way to win is use just 1 unit and only that one unit for every game ever.
>every game plays out the exact same way.
Ya sure sounds fun.
>>332020469
In which game does this actually happen?
>>332020586
Last I checked, Total Anihilation. Those T1 missile vehicles were the only viable unit cause they had a ton of health and did ok dmg for their cost. You could swarm players with those and nothing could really counter them except for another mass of those vehicles.
>>332020821
stop playing shitty games like total annihilation then
I'm not interested in RTS games at all any more. They're all always just "rush rush rush rush rush".
Never any actual building or complexity, just "which player is better at rushing?"
>>332020889
But most other RTS play out similarly with early game rushes being the only viable way to play.
pretty much what >>332021073 is killing RTS by boiling them down to 1 strategy.
>>332005881
Fun units and gameplay, and a passable plot, because I only play campaign or the occasional skirmish.
>>332021228
in most games if you fuck up the rush then you auto lose because the other player has the head sttart and wins with stronger units or ones that counter the rush units
or both players rush eachother and don't really gain any ground and then they move on to later units
not rushing makes games way more likely to end in everyone spamming 1 unit because everyone just upgrades to the super mega fuck you unit and then moves their ball of death into the other enemy base and wins unless they have a slightly bigger ball
>>332021073
This just isn't true
>>332020586
Age of Empires 2 as well. You only really see skirms, archers and mangonels in comp play.
>>332016745
I really like the idea of having control groups do more than just selecting units.
>>332020469
AoE baby mad because he can't create his shitty persian war elephants
>>332023569
I never played AoE with another person. So no your are wrong.
>>332022965
and knights and halbs and horse archers
so pretty much everything but swordsmen, monks and scorpions
I really wish new IPs could get a chance in the market. Deserts of Kharak failing because the NOT MUH HOMEWORLD autists is sad, and discourages people to dare do RTS at all.
Why should they try, it's clear since they aren't age of empires and command & conquer noone will buy their games.
>>332024320
while that is true DoK was pretty bad
not Grey Goo tier garbage but it wasn't a good game by any means
>>332022965
The only units that aren't used are
-most of the unique units
-champions
-scorpions
People use monks when playing sarracens, and they may even use villagers when playing spanish. If you think about it, you play with almost the full set of units.
>>332024320
DoK failed because skirmish AI was shit, and MP options / map variety were shit.
I love homeworld and traditional RTS games, but the game released with like <6 skirmish maps and the AI was completely broken.
I'm going to buy the game when it goes on sale, but $50 for broken AI in an RTS is a no-go.
>>332024968
That's fair, on that note.
Would SP RTS suffer from this? if an RTS is announced without any kind of MP would it sell badly?
I always hear that MP has ruined the way devs approach RTS designs, it's less about fun and more about balance.
Also
> <6 skirmish maps
Fucking Heroes of Anihilated empires launched with 5 maps, FIVE
>>332021073
>>332021228
>>332022340
I take it back, I like Natural Selection 2. But even then it's only half an RTS.
>>332025228
I have never heard of HoAE until your post.
But yes, launching an RTS in 2016 without MP would be a disaster and a guaranteed dead game.
I mean, I mostly play RTS for the campaign / skirmish, but the 'replayability' added by MP really makes a purchase 'worth it' for a lot of people, including me.
If I were rich, I wouldn't give a shit about dropping $60 on a 10 hour campaign like in DoK, but most people wouldn't buy it because of the value:cost ratio.
>>332005881
Make Dota 3
With microtransactions
Pay to find a match
Pay to pick a hero
>>332025536
Thanks for your shitpost, you really contributed to the discussion.
>>332024832
>>332024250
You're still missing scout cav, anything from the barracks, and all the interesting uniques.
I just wish the swordsmen had a place, the men at arms look so fucking cool.
>>332025632
Scout cav are good for some early rushes and hussars are part of the trash units army composition for very late game, if the game gets to that point.
>>332025612
I know right?
>>332025525
HoAE is a fun game, i definitely recommend it, it has heroes, fantasy, cool endless skeleton armies and the campaign has this feel of postapocaliptic earth going on.
Also, about MP replayability, i always hear how people are scared shitless of MP and won't even try it because they will be BTFO by people better than them, i mean, if the game ships with content like world conquest, a satisfying campaign with all races, and other stuff, i can see the price point being justified.
It's stupid when games like DoK launch with such pathetic SP outside the main campaign.
>>332025780
True.
I was more so pointing out that the dominant strat is to mass one or two units and then transition (or not) depending on what your opponent is building.
>>332009076
If you think they're completely expendable, you should be losing every game. Units leave wrecks that can be recycled.
>>332026002
That's how armies worked in real life, though. You have your bread and butter soldiers that are good all around, reliable and useful, then you have specialists you use under different circumstances. Just like in AoE, which unit are used in which circumstances is decided by your location (The civ represents that aspect), the terrain and your opponent.
>>332013809
This is pretty much how I feel about it. RTS has become guitar hero with units. Same shit every time, just hit they keys quicker than the other person.
>>332005881
Buy every single RTS that comes out regardless of quality.
Post abput RTS constantly.
Shitpost poor quality games, exaggerate good quality games. Still buy them.
Encourage friends to play them. Help them learn and understand them. Be patient. Manipulate them. Make them think they're having fun.
Support companies that make RTS games you like by giving them money at every opportunity they provide you
>>332026224
Fair enough.
Strictly from a gameplay standpoint I'd prefer more unit variety. Don't get me wrong though I love AOE 2, it's easily one of my favorite games of all time.
>>332007446
I'm a game designer and researched a ton about this problem I think what you're saying is unfortunately mostly unsolvable.
If you do not want to limit your game design (like taking away unit control from the game completely, or "only allow 3 units to be alive at the same time" and ridiculous stuff like that) APM is going to be a very inherent part of competitive RTS play because for any given limitation of unit or economic control you can think about is going to have an insanely high APM cap (again, unless you severely limit your game design).
This is empirically backed up by the fact that the highest level players in pretty much any RTS you can think off, from Starcraft to Warcraft 3 to something like Supreme Commander all have very high APM.
>>332005881
blizzard has refined RTS to the optimal form. deal with it, nerds.
>>332026971
>cont
Instead of trying to limit the importance of APM in general (a fools errand I believe) the better approach would be to lower the "APM floor", i.e. the minimum APM required to play the game as much as possible by providing as much intuitive UI help as possible.
Applying this for a game like Starcraft 2 this means enabling players to automate tasks that were required to be manually cast but are repetitive (like the macro mechanics), or giving UI overviews for stuff you have would usually have to check for by actually clicking on it on the map or selecting it with unit hotkeys (like giving the observer UI that you get in replays and when observing a live game to players, where you see current status of unit production, upgrades, worker count, etc.) and also provide stuff like being able to build all units with a single click somewhere on the screen instead of going through multiple sub menus.
What's a good popular RTS atm?
I loved AoE, AoM, EE, Stronghold and Supcom
>>332026976
I have found a picture of this "optimal form".
>>332026971
high level supcom has pretty low APM bro
>>332027303
>cont
You would think that the same idea can be applied to the actual gameplay itself (like making units autocast abilities and place them perfectly) but I want to make it clear that this is only a crutch that will still break unless you severely limit your game design. Even extremely macro-light games with units that have relatively simple mechanics and lots of autocast (like Warcraft 3) have shown that players will use very high APM to great effectiveness for stuff like positioning, kiting, retreat and re-engage in battle, etc.
Anyone know if Age of Mythology is active?
And how's that new xpac?
>>332027359
Rise of Nations. It's arguably the pinnacle of RTS.
>>332027440
>All these undead civs to pick from
>Still only like Warctaft 3s
I also think APM is the big barrier holding back RTS's popularity, but as long as a game uses real time, speed is going to be a vital competitive factor. You cannot change this, but you can try minimizing the importance of speed in your game.
If you want complete focus on strategy, you'll have to settle with turn-based games.
I still play Red Alert 1. So do like 400 people on at all times. Shit is fun senpai
>>332005881
APM wouldn't be so bad if you didn't have to cycle screens all over the place like a spastic. How about having multiple views as a start?
>>332027589
>cont
it also has to be said that the subjective feeling of players that APM is too important and players would do better if it was all about strategy is mostly just wrong. really, the types of players who complain about apm requirement will also be those who are shit at strategy, this is easily tested by giving any decent player in a game like SC2 a severe apm limitation and seeing them destroy noobie players with an easy 100% winrate purely because of superior strategy.
in short: the strategic element of a game like starcraft 2 is notoriously, hugely, underrated. people imagine the relationship between the importance of APM and strategy to be like "high apm first, then strategy" (even within the community), but in reality it's more like both are equally important and improving hugely in one aspect will gain you the same amount of winrate that improving in the other will.
>>332007446
>you're sitting with your dick in your hand with 5.
why should this player win in any competitive game, ever
you are a retard/10
>>332027545
still extremely high in terms of what a player perceives that doesn't like the high apm requirement of contemporary strategy games. of course a game like SC2 has a much higher average apm than a game like supcom.
>>332005881
Will the new Total War: Warhammer edition save the genre?
so what do you guys love/hate in a rts?
>>332024968
I also found that it looked like shit if you ever zoomed in even slightly and was full of visual bugs and no unit collision.
>>332005881
Is there a happy medium between MoBAs and pure RTSes? Why not have multiple players function together as specific officers in a force to make it more realistic: you'll have one dude managing workers and buildings and unit construction, while a bunch of other dudes control their own section military units and a hero a-la mobile styled heroes?
Basically, if DoTA had someone controlling the ancients and someone else controlling the lane creeps.
>>332028892
sounds like natural selection.
>>332028585
Love: Supreme Commander 2
Hate: Supreme Commander 1
>>332028232
Fucking THANK YOU. I've been trying to get this across to people but they fucking refuse to believe it.
You're a legend, anon. Your preceding posts were also excellent.
i really wish Lotr Bfme was on steam, that game was fun
>>332028892
That's pretty much SC2 archon mode
>>332028892
More coop focused RTS could help with all the ladder anxiety and shit
>>332027657
age of mythology is only slightly more ded then aoe2 but has a larger no shitters allowed barrier to multiplayer.
Xpac is horrifically imbalanced, you are forced to play meta gods versus chinese or play chinese yourself.
>>332020586
Starcraft. You only need to build one unit.
Either Dragons or Flying Dicks
>>332005881
its dead anon, save the memories in your heart and move on
>>332029372
did you get those backwards
>Play most any RTS game
>Enjoy myself, decide to try online
>Get destroyed within minutes because I didn't expand quickly enough or do some rapid mouse bullshit
>Every match repeats this
>Give up and go back to playing skirmishes against AI
>>332005976
>He still thinks dota killed RTS
>>332009030
i used to play that shit att lans all the time with friends, 8 peepz going att it on those cray maps
the singleplayer is dope btw, story is whatever but its fun
>>332033241
Put some time in, anon. You can do it. It's ok to lose as long as you learn from it.
I just want an RTS where mass destruction is permanent
>Shell craters and explosions in CoH
>Wrecked tank hulls in CoH
>City blocks flattened in CoH
>Masses of dead bodies in WH40K DoW
Basically the idea of, the map looks like there was actually a huge fucking war/battle there
>all these people bitching about apm
100apm really isn't that much guys. In fact I feel like I'm moving really slow when I play Starcraft at that speed
>>332005881
>Gentlemen, how do we save the RTS genre?
make them all like BFME-2 and CoH1
>>332015338
Surprised that my RTS journey is represented so well. Went from AoE > C&C > Warcraft > Total War > Grand strat.
>>332034146
Losing has taught me that no game will ever appreciate turtling as much as I do.
And that rushing with technicals filled with terrorists in Generals is ridiculously effective.
bumpin good thread.
>>332009976
not so much the expansions but 2 years worth of patches. game is still fairly well supported by relic. I thinks the game has finally surpassed vcoh in terms of balance and gameplay. DLC is a bitch tho
RTS is all about speed and following a set pattern with little adapting in a concrete game. That makes it pretty boring, I think. The game would be better if you didn't have time pressuring you to do better than others.
>>332028275
You're a lone shitpost in a sea of insightful comments. Very sad!
Maybe leave and head for r/4chan?
>>332033241
Just stick to single player. It's just not worth it.
>>332006071
This is actually true.
AOE2 only have one set of units, that's why people dig it. Balance, learning curve, sense of being in control, etc.
RTS with crazy different and imbalance factions are always dogshit, like Generals or RA3
>>332038181
How would you describe AoM?
>>332027943
how?
>>332038632
fun
World in Conflict is currently on sale. Is it good if I only play it for SP?
>>332016745
>paraworld
My nigga
>>332014527
You sound like you want to play agrand strategygame.
>>332015338
Move supcom2 to purgatory. SupCom 2 isn't a bad game and has remarkable AI. It's just that it completely shits on what the series stood for.
>rating things based on your personal feelings
I suppose I am on /v/
>>332038907
Great, just played the SP a few weeks ago and it was alot of fun
>>332038907
Amazing story driven campaign.
>>332005881
ALREADY THERE
YES
YES
ALREADY THERE
>>332038907
>>332039263
>>332039329
Different anon, is MP dead? Do people get super pissed at new people trying it out and probably making assloads of mistakes?
>>332039819
Can't remember if you can even play MP in it any more.
First you'd need RTS fans as a whole to stop being elitist retards that refuse to play anything new but at the same time go on nostalgia trips about the "good ol' days" of games that still have fully functional multiplayer but they also refuse to play.
Its insane. The RTS genre is literally dead because of its community.
>>332039996
Pretty sure it's LAN only these days
I would love a remastered battle realms. Especially if:
>working ingame encyclopedia so you know what your units passive abilities are
>Ability to toggle auto use of actives in appropriate situations
>modern ui
Anyone remember that multiplayer game that was an FPS, but you had a commander who built shit for your team RTS style? I think it was by the same people who did Heroes of Newerth?
>>332040446
Savage and Savage 2.
If you enjoy that concept feel free to try Natural Selection 2. The original NS more or less pioneered the RTS/FPS concept.
>>332038632
Skopos?
>>332015338
So apparently Nobody fuckign Played total Annihil;ation kingdoms?
I liked the fact that every troop including your king could get promotions. Using harpies to steal other races builders and getting all 4 dragons was incredibly fun to me when i was young.
>>332039819
There's also a realism mod for it on moddb that's pretty fun.
>>332041459
I played it, hated the bird's eye perspective and thought the races were kind of boring.
The ideas were cool but eeh.
