Why does Valve continue to shit on the Pyro, /v/?
Because he counters the Soldier.
Fuck that "pro" nigger benny or whatever I was told. The retards that maintain TF2 seem to be listening to that retards ramblings bout the pyro and thats why the phlog got buffed and degreaser nerf'd.
God damn im also mad about switch speed.
>>320800076
Get ready for disappointment them
Pyros were a mistake
Guys I haven't played TF2 in a while but I used to run Backburner/Shotgun/Homewrecker
Did the update fuck me too somehow?
>>320801307
I don't think so, it was mostly a degreaser nerf
>>320800189
I'm, uh... sorry?
>>320799307
Why do you continue to play a shitty game that hasn't been relevant in years?
Oh, right, you PCucks have nothing else to play.
>>320801475
At the core TF2 is still a great game. It's only Valves treatment of the game thats been shitting it up really.
>>320801585
It has its time in the sun. Move on, faggot.
>>320801475
jokes on you shitlord i only play the terrible unupdated version from the Orange Box for the original Xbox
Why not just deleted the whole thread?
>>320801641
had*
>>320799307
>Axtinguisher is released
>with a little more effort, it lets the close-range class do a melee combo on burning targets
>Valve sees this
>HANG ON WHAT THE FUCK
>THIS MELEE CRIT WEAPON IS ON A CLASS THAT ISN'T THE SOLDIER, WE CAN'T ALLOW THAT
>nerf it
>after a while a few skilled pyros finally manage to get the weapon working again with falling ax crits
>ARE YOU SERIOUS IS PYRO STILL TRYING TO GET MELEE CRITS? YOU'RE NOT THE SOLDIER
>gets fucking nerfed into the absolute gutter to the point where spraying your fire around like a retard is simply quicker than trying to pull out a weapon with 75% less equip speed
Pyro is one of the weakest classes in the game. Average speed, health, and damage. Below average range.
Compare that to a class like Scout, who has great mobility, low health, average range and great damage. Great at 2 things.
Or a class like Sniper, who has great damage, low health, great range and average mobility. Great at 2 things.
Combos allowed Pyro to be good at ONE THING, giving it good damage within a completely gimped range, and they took that away. So now it's the "below average" class again.
And yet Soldier and Sniper STILL get to keep their melee crit combo weapons, and they actually fucking buffed the Sniper's bushwacka with the carbine buff.
>>320801641
Why would I move on from something I'm still having fun with?Cheer up anon.
>>320801641
To what? Another toxic-ass MOBA from Valve's own attempt to jump on that gravy train?
>>320801837
>I'm a newfag
Ok
>>320801832
And then they buffed the phlog
>>320801926
To something else, preferably something not Valve related.
Oh, right, PCucks have no games.
>tfw my favorite weapon was nerfed
>>[post deleted due to quints]
>Pyro's fine, they just actually put him back into his role of fire-dealer utility class instead of Street Fighter: TF2 Edition.
>Skill ceiling be damned, I'm glad they came to their senses.
Just to state it again.
>>320802048
Good.
>>320802101
Good, faggot.
>>320799307
Because Valve balances around the lowest common denominator, and these kinds of players cannot handle even a shitty pyro. They nerfed roaming heavy, they nerfed demoknight, they nerfed pyro, they nerf a lot of things that are neither abusive nor broken, simply because people complain.
>>320802101
>"nerfed"
>not "slaughtered"
There was no need for valve to make the weapon useless. I agree it was to strong preupdate but simply reducing the speed or increase buildup would of been alright. But making it a strait downgrade is stupid.
>>320802256
Valve are like liberals; always trying to appeal to people that, deep down, they don't give a shit about.
>>320802150
>hide around corner
>taunt
>C-5 to cut off the extremely noisy taunt and replace it with a near-silent chortle
>free crits on a large group
>cycle repeats
>>320802256
I feel like the latest update reveals something that's probably been true for years - the skeleton crew that still works on TF2 has little to no understanding of what actually makes TF2 fun or exciting to play. Their changes are drastic and end up making the game more frustrating for players rather than making genuine attempts at balance.
>>320802048
Yep, it's fucking ludicrous
The fanbase complaining about W+m1 play is why they have to keep the class shit and can't give it buffs like movespeed, yet they continue making W+m1 the most viable play style on the class
Why are Scout, Soldier, and Demo so good compared to everyone else? Excluding Medic since he's the nigga that needs to keep everyone in tip-top shape
>>320802101
>weapon is shit on release for the longest time
>finally gets buffed into usability
>faggots cry about how scout is now too fast
>nerfed to be even worse then it was when it was released
This was why i stopped. Running circles around heavys with the boston basher was so fun but I guess fun alternate play isnt allowed unless your playing soldier.
![Detonator_RED[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/S9lRQvZ.png "Detonator_RED[1].png")
>>320799307
no idea desu senpai
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PFfa60O8Y48
>>320802520
First two are offensive classes and third might as well be one since anything that makes him more defensive based is met with an uproar from demo "mains".
Also at max skill ceiling, a Sniper will kill any of those classes and more.
>>320802520
Because Scout has great mobility, Soldier is the very versatile, and demo has a great damage output without being a total fatass like the heavy.
>Valve nerfs the few truly good engineer items instead of buffing/changing all the garbage ones
>The sapper change just means that if your shit gets sapped while defending an area with any sort of action going on you and your sentry are both dead
>>320802520
Because they are the main classes for 6v6
>>320802520
Because most of the classes are literally useless gimmicks. The engineer for example, is only there to make the round longer than it should be. The spy is only there to prevent the heavy from making newbies cry, the pyro is there only to take care of spies, and the sniper is there because why the fuck not, the game is already a huge clusterfuck.
The problem with TF2 is valve actually listens to the community
it's like listening to a room full of insane monkey screeching flinging shit, there might be like 1/50 guys who have any idea what they're talking about or have any sense of all the classes
pressure from the community is killing this games potential, valve if you can read this listen, stop listening to retards and giving them what they want, do your thing.
>>320802704
>Spy finally gets something that defines his counter-status against Engie
>Compared to Engie who has had things like Pomson, Wrangler, Southern Hospitality, and previously, the Jag
>>320802693
>>320802702
>>320802705
>>320802810
So it's practically got the same problem as TFC/FF then
>>320802810
>The engineer for example, is only there to make the round longer than it should be. The spy is only there to prevent the heavy from making newbies cry, the pyro is there only to take care of spies, and the sniper is there because why the fuck not, the game is already a huge clusterfuck.
i never realized how shitty this game was until now
>>320802520
All four classes have the highest mobility in the game, which is of premier importance in any organised game of TF2 because you need to get your team to the middle of the map as quickly as possible.
Soldier has rocket jumps, Demoman has sticky jumps, Scout has double jumps and 133% movespeed [where the standard is 100% and Heavy is 77%], and Medic has 107% speed and is mandatory anyway.
Those 3 classes also have some of the best damage output in the game. Scout can pump about 600 damage into someone up close, Demo can do 800 in burst, and Soldier can do 400 at close while popping out consistent 50-30 damage at range.
On top of that, those 4 classes have the best general usage on both offense and defense. While Heavy is powerful on defense, on offense he gets to the front slowly. While Engineer is good on defense, on offense all he really offers is a Shotgun and a teleporter, and minis die in one hit. While Spy is good for the occasional pick in a drawn out match, it's too squishy to cap a point and too squishy to defend a point. While Pyro is shit on shit, shit shit shit shit.
You are forgetting Sniper, who is theoretically the most powerful class. Sniper is in a mostly balanced position with human skill levels, although the Razorback and DDS are OP, and the reload time should really be increased on the rifles.
>>320802487
You forgot the part where someone in the large group slaughters the pyro if they're actually paying attention. Valve's balancers are retarded but giving the phlog a small damage buff is something I'm actually pleased with.
>>320801475
>that hasn't been relevant in years?
But that's wrong, retard
I play pyro alot and i'm not complaining too mutch.
I usually run Flamethrower+Reserve Shooter+Axetinguisher.
I'm actually glad they removed minicrits on people jumping with the RS, jumping is a basic game mechanich which should not be used to punsish you, and if you're close enough to use it it usually means you're close enough to get a good airblast in.
I'm not sure if the Axetinguisher was buffed or nerfed. They killed it the last time but now its semi decent, the -33% damage is a pain but the crits will still kill most light classes in 1 hit or the fire will just kill them off.
>>320802964
It used to be fun, but I'm really sick of hearing about it now. It's almost a decade old. Niggas need to move the fuck on.
>>320803074
>actually paying attention
Yeah right
>>320803143
You're in denial.
>>320802850
This.
Any high level player, or hell, anyone with a brain can see Pyro's glaring weaknesses. No mobility, no burst, not that tanky, etc.
But the problem is most of what remains of the TF2 community is fucking stupid people. People on pubs STILL think Pyro is OP because ABLOO BLOO WM1 THIS IS BULLSHIT instead of considering they might have the situation awareness and reaction time of a potato.
So then Pyro is stuck in this stupid limbo where good people think he's weak but bad people think he's strong.
Unfortunately Valve listens to the idiots.
>>320802850
they only ask comp players for balance changes, they don't ask pub shitters like you you weenie
>>320803271
>they only ask comp players for balance changes
my fucking ass they do
>>320803190
See, that's the players' problem.
>>320803271
You know comp players think pyro is absolute dogshit right? Only shitters think he's OP.
>>320803269
>People on pubs STILL think Pyro is OP because ABLOO BLOO WM1 THIS IS BULLSHIT
Then why did they buff the phlog
>>320803269
I think you'll find that the idiots are usually the ones screaming on the forums.
>>320803163
It now does 133 for full crits. That's fine for Scouts or Spies, but it makes taking down Soldiers and Heavies a pain in the ass. The damage isn't the issue, though, it's the fact that it takes for-fucking-ever for the weapon to actually come out. By the time it's deployed, your target won't be in a position for you to strike and get a full crit - making it effectively worthless, IMO.
>>320803271
They haven't done that in years, anon. The private TF2 beta died ages ago.
>>320802919
Nigga we're talking about probably the two worst classes in the game.
Pomson sucks and makes Engi give up a decent primary, Wrangler doesn't really counter spy, SH isn't used any more, Jag doesn't really counter Spy either.
Even with all of these "counters" the Engineer has to give something up for them, the sapper change is free, and I believe works on both sappers (no one uses redtape recorder anyway)
>>320803376
Because pubbies get kited by anyone with a brain?
>>320802487
Did you not read my post to which you replied? They make the game shittier for people like you and me so that mouthbreathers can sniper and soldier in peace. Valve probably views it as a zero sum method. Last time I played I got something like 30+ heads every life simply because there was no one on the server who could stop me. Our fun comes at the expense of these pubbies, Valve thinks they're doing them a service.
>>320803376
Valve's peanut brains finally short-circuited and actually helped the pyro.
Test
>>320801832
Wait, what? Does this say a Scout ambushes a Pyro better than he does a Sniper?
>>320803414
Didn't they remove the mini-crit bullshit?
>>320799307
tf2 is dead, let it go
>>320802919
>>Spy finally gets something that defines his counter-status against Engie
That's a statement from someone who knows little about the game. Spy isn't the intended counter to Engineer; that title goes to Demoman, who can kill Sentries with indirect fire.
Sentries were designed so that every class except Scout has a reliable way of dealing with them- popping in and out of corners, because of the Sentry's slow uptake time, allows you to whittle down a Sentry's health without losing too much of your own. And this forces the Engineer to get his Shotgun and go deal with you manually, instead of sitting in his nest.
But because Spy doesn't output enough damage with the Revolver to take down a Sentry without losing nearly all his Health immediately, he needs something to help him damage Sentries another way.
Team Fortress Classic solved that by giving him grenades; TF2 solves it by giving him the Sapper. It's not designed to be a hard counter to the Sentry, just to give him the ability to compete against them. As such a Spy wielding a Sapper is pretty much on an even playing field with Engineers; sometimes Engies will knock you the fuck out, and sometimes you will sap and stab.
Spy is the intended counter to Snipers, not Engineers.
Their just shitting on the people who play him.
>>320802487
>the skeleton crew that still works on TF2 has little to no understanding of what actually makes TF2 fun or exciting to play.
I've heard the exact same thing said about CS:GO and DotA2. Maybe Valve just doesn't fucking understand how to balance multiplayer games.
>>320803685
To be fair though TF2 is overseen by a fucking skeleton crew though.
Kinda sucks because there are people in the community who could run the game much better and actually WANT to.
>>320803685
Of course they don't, they don't even make cosmetics at this point, they take stuff off the workshop and occasionally have interns make some skins
>>320802686
Didn't he get cancer and die?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjRBrg0ZR5A
>People are really serious when they say that the switch speed killed Degreaser and Axetinguisher
>>320803590
edit: meant to say "Demomen can kill sentries with indirect fire without the engies being able to retaliate"
Meanwhile Spies have to get up right close to the nest to sap, which is where the Engineers can hit them with a Southern Hospitality, so it's even
>>320803784
To be fair it really doesn't matter since the CS:GO team isn't any better and they have a way bigger team. He's right, Valve is just retarded.
>>320803482
I did read it, I was agreeing with what you were saying. Valve does balance to the lowest common denominator, but by doing that they fail to understand that those players have the least useful opinion on the state of the game. What I was trying to imply was that the guys who work on the game not only listen primarily to these players, but don't have enough of a grasp of the game itself to even understand why the changes they're making are not good.
>>320803685
As someone who has has much time in TF2 as he does in Dota, I'd disagree with that statement. Dota's changes are different because they're meant to mix up the meta - the game can be "solved" too quickly and not enough players are willing to take major risks when they're constantly playing for large sums of money and can be dropped in a heartbeat. The people who complain about those kinds of changes in Dota don't have a good grasp on why they were made to begin with. Can't speak for CS:GO, honestly.
>>320803891
It killed the axe but the flaregun is still alright
>Subhuman retards cry when le puff n sting is nerfed
>it gets outright deleted later
>you can still find 4000 kill strange degreaser shitstains
>mfw
>>320804038
No, what killed the axe was the last update minicrit bullshit (Removed) and this updates -33% damage.
That's 1/3 less that a normal axe.
>>320803590
>No one counters Soldier.
>But Soldier also counters everyone.
Fixed.
>>320803891
It did kill the axe. There's now no reason to ever use it.
>>320802979
I thought most people back in the day thought the Razorback to be useless?
>>320804367
Thats bullshit, i still use it and it still 1-shots light classes, it still fucks up Soldiers and Demos.
Heavies are the only issue now, needing 3 or more hits.
>>320804371
It's strong in highlander, where you know there will only be one spy, and the only other secondary that's strong enough is Jarate, which can't be utilized well in a lot of maps
the ability of airblast to completely stun you combined with being able to chain airblasts to hold someone in a corner (without them being able to airstrafe out) was completely broken. the latest patch addressed this: the first airblast stuns so you can get your noskill flarepunch/shottyblast in, but you can no longer lock someone in a corner just by clicking m2
the range of the flamethrower is compensated by the flare gun and shotgun. pyro mains love to forget that flares can do 90 damage at any range, and that if they had any skill at all, the shotgun is an even more reliable method of dealing damage
people complaining about soldier and demo make me laugh too. second and third slowest classes in the game. pipes are impossible for shitters to hit, stickies less so but there's a fucking 1 second arm time, if you're THAT FUCKING PREDICTABLE that the demo can shoot a sticky and you fucking walk over it you deserve to take 125 damage. rockets that aren't directs do shit for damage and he only has four of them. are you telling me in 20 fucking 15 you're still dying to shitter soldiers?
in other words, this thread is filled with pub shitters that couldn't make it out of iron
>>320804214
Soldier does counter most of the shitty classes, true; but he's actually countered by Scout as it stands now because Scout's mid-range and close-range damage is so good and he's so manuverable. In a 1v1 situation, a good Scout will shit all over a good Soldier, because Scouts can move just that tad faster than Soldiers' rockets, and the Scattergun does 60 more damage in a clip at mid range than the Shotgun while also reloading faster.
>>320800000
>>320803590
>scout hard counters demo
Too easy to nail them with a niggernade at effective scout range to truly be a hard counter
>join a pub server
>20 phlog pyros
>>320803784
Has anyone made a pro mod yet? That would be exactly how you'd do it.
>>320804371
In an organised team it's a very very effective Spy counter. The Sniper can sit near a Sentry or teammates, and then the Spy's options are nothing.
If he tries to backstab the Sniper and blunder around butterknifing, he's obviously going to die. If he tries to Ambassador headshot the Sniper, that's still not enough time to actually kill the sniper before his teammates/the Sentry fuck him up. It makes suicide attacks impossible.
So if you want to kill a Razorback Sniper you have to either kill everyone guarding him first or kill the Sentry and Engineer.
Meanwhile, that Sniper is picking off your Medic and one of your teammates every 2 seconds.
I'd rework the Razorback so you had to activate it manually, so that it would be up for around 10 second durations or something and then need to recharge. And give it a speed boost or something during that activation time, too, so that it has a use for Snipers to get to the front line when there aren't any Spies.
That would mean Snipers actually have to be aware in their use of it.
>>320804865
If he just hangs back and peppers you from range there's literally nothing you can do about being chipped to death with the Pistol. Sure you can kill him in some situations like choke points, but Engineers can kill Demos in some situations as well. Hard counter doesn't imply it's impossible to kill them, just a lot more difficult.
>>320805019
This is true in lolander and probably pubs. In 6s the cozy camper is by far the greatest secondary.
>>320804865
you must be playing against some pretty shitty scouts, scout v demo on the same skill level, scout will completely dominate demo
>>320805334
Yeah, fair point. They shouldn't have fucking buffed it. Sure its equip rate was low but it was a balanced sidegrade, same with Claidheamh Mor.
>>320805019
Snipers are usually always by themselves.
Sentry's are usually near the front to, not near the sniper.
>>320803891
You don't take into consideration that extra second in soldier and scout duels means life or death. One of pyros strengths was being able to immediately punish enemies for making mistakes before they could counter attack, that is now no longer an option and you have to choose between staying with reflects or going for some chip damage with your secondary. You also can't flare punch anymore making pyro v pyro duels embarrassingly long. DESU it should have been switch off speed stay 60% and deploy speed be 30%. Pyro needs his secondaries to hold his own against the ranged classes.
>>320805753
goddamn word filter
t.bh*
>>320804605
Do people even complain about sticks anymore? 99% of pub demos can't even use the fucking things properly. All I see is demoknights nowadays.
>Soldiers complaining about Pyros
Whenever I run solly I top score without ever scoring a single direct hit. Your class is retardedly OP, fuck outta here.
>>320806086
Soldier mains are sore losers, god forbid soldier actually has some counters like everyone else.
>nobody has realized yet that W+M1 does twice as much damage now
>>320803956
And I was reminding you that they understand exactly what they're doing and that it is not incompetence that drives these changes. They know that they have severely gimped the high skill pyro player, they know that demoknight is now, more than ever, simply a silly gimmick with no place in even casual play. They just feel that it's healthier for the state of the game to nerf these things.
Give me all your money
>>320805556
>near the front to
Anon I was talking about organised teams, not shitty pubs.
>>320807319
>hot pink/neon green
It's TF2's cancer colors, but now on the weapon!
>>320807319
>Bright prink ploy for attention
>Not having a strange festive flamethrower
Kill yourself fimfam
>>320807319
I think your game's missing some files or something, might want to verify your cache.
As long as they don't remove air blast I'll be happy. You don't understand the joy of airblasting a medic heavy combo about to Uber off a cliff.
i actually feel like the degreaser changes made me play better
maybe because i use shotgun and not flares but i dont know
>>320803874
Problems with his nervous system.
>>320807319
how come the texture didn't load in?
Pyro needs a little more mobility and higher damage output. He's designed to be an ambush based character and does well enough (but not amazing) when he does get the better of people but he doesn't have the tools to sneak behind enemy lines effectively.
Currently pyro is a high utility support who can defend objectives from uber pushes and team mate controlled areas from spies but offers little outside of that because he lacks the tools to get in properly.
New Spy Disguise Kit: The Passport
>pass through enemies while disguised [cannot undisguise while touching an enemy]
>increases movespeed to that of your disguise, up to 133%
>must manually undisguise before attacking [2.5s wait]
>+75% afterburn damage vulnerability
it makes spy better in 6s because he can get to mid at scout speed rather than spending ages setting up a stab, and the fire damage penalty doesn't matter as pyros are rare there
situational sidegrade in HL and pubs where pyros are common; lets you get to a Sniper to kill them faster if you can avoid pyros, makes med/scout disguises more convincing, allows you to pass through narrow one-man tunnels which enemies could body block like Frontier last, and helps you dodge spychecking while in disguise
the undisguising wait time means that you are no faster than an ordinary Spy when it comes to actual combat, so no scout speed chainstabs or anything.
thoughts?
>>320810609
How to make Spy OP 101.
>>320810609
Just the clipping bonus is good enough, movespeed going up is retarded
>>320807348
>implying highlander isn't a pub with a password
>"comp" tf2
>>320810865
Where did I say competitive? I said organised
Equal team structure on both sides is organisation; pubs have completely random team composition which can be anything from all Snipers to 5 Medics and a Demo, HL has one of each class on both sides which does not change
dumb frogfucker
>>320810735
>>320810825
read the description again and think about it
the movespeed isn't a flat buff in all situations, it completely prevents you from attacking to get it, just like Bonk prevents you from attacking while under invulnerability
when you are able to attack, and undisguised, you're no different from a normal Spy except way more vulnerable to dying in a fire
Basically this weapon turns you into a Scout who can't attack at all, and dies to a single Flare [157 damage taken from a flare using this PDA, as opposed to 90 without it]
when you undisguise, you lose all benefits of the weapon
of course in competitive it's nearly a flat buff because Pyros are so rare, and that's intentional
>>320810609
Problem with this idea is the awkward nature of the manual undisguise, need an alternate nerf. Also giving a spy scout speed for free would be fucked up, also all spies would spam scout disguises.
I haven't played TF2 in a lomg time
What's the deal with weapon skins? Are they a crate only thing, or can you craft them?
>>320811885
Crates from the campaigns whose passes you need to pay for I believeI've got like three crates but have no idea what to do with them
>>320811885
You can only get good ones from crates, but you can get shit ones from drops for having the campaign pass.
In other words, its a pretty similar deal to CS:GO, not even including the fact that the skins have the same classing system of csgo.
NEW CONTRACTS
FUCKING WHEN
>>320812043
>>320812052
So unless you pay money, you can't really get them
You know, sometimes I want to reinstall TF2, and then I remember that I need money to really see all the new stuff
>>320811671
>Problem with this idea is the awkward nature of the manual undisguise
That's to offset the speed; if you didn't have to manually undisguise you could just run right the fuck up to someone at 133% speed and backstab them and get mad chainstabs.
Just to clarify, i don't mean you have to go to the PDA menu and disguise as a Spy of your team to be able to attack; just attacking normally the first time doesn't swing, but makes you undisguise instead.
>also all spies would spam scout disguises.
yeah I'm not too worried about that part, it's kind of intentional because the focus of the watch is positioning yourself on the map quickly
plus you don't get the double jump, and you can't carry intel while disguised or cap while disguised, so you don't gain too much there
>>320812551
Keep in mind that many of the shit skins cost only cents due to their commonality.
>mfw phlog scorch shot pyro
>>320803891
Half the problem is that it was nerfed at all, not that it's completely unusable now.
I could still use the axetinguisher after that bullshit with the minicrits, that doesn't mean it wasn't a dumbass nerf that Valve made because they were more interested in balancing pyro's weapons with each other rather than with the other classes in the game. They would rather see pyro's weapons be equal in the dumpster than unequal but potentially competitive with other classes.
They also increased the degreaser's airblast cost which is pretty damning in itself since airblasts are basically all the flamethrower is good for, which is the whole reason people thought the degreaser was a direct upgrade to the stock flamethrower. How about instead of nerfing the degreaser to try and bring it down to the shitty level of the other pyro weapons, they actually improve the flamethrower so that it isn't used solely for airblasting and setting up puff-n-stings?
