I have recently tried out several Japanese franchises - Yakuza (first game), Shin Megami Tensei (Nocturne, Digital Devil Saga) and Drakengard 1. What I've noticed is that they do their darndest to keep you engaged in endless trivial battle encounters. Trivial in a sense that it is very difficult to lose them but enemies still accost you every step of the way from point A to B. Every game also has quite simplistic combat patterns repeated ad nauseam.
Now, Yakuza is fun and easy through and through (disregarding tons of encounters) and its simplistic combat doesn't offer much challenge even for the bosses. SMT games usually have a boss that simply waves you away the first time you slog through to him. Drakengard was just tedious. Why do Japanese so adore this kind of endless, mind numbing grind? All I hear about that culture is that you're either Hikikomori or Salaryman. But why must these games waste so much of your time on stuff draging out what little differing content they have?
I am aware that this is also the case with many western games but I noticed Japan seems to be in love with trivial grind. At least you often do not have to craft in western games to get from point A to B.
>>320621809
DEFINITION OF A RPG /THREAD
>>320622535
What?
Have you never played (J)RPGs before or something?
Are you implying japanese games only do this?
Also, why not go play some mobile games if you don't want some padding in your games, or you can try out modern AAA games that hold your penis while you pee
>>320621809
>pic of SMT4
>complaining about encounters
>>320623156
Oh, I fucked up on the first sentence.
Disregard that, you're still a faggot though.
>>320623168
Simplicity of endless encounters offering nothing to gameplay / strategic depth anon.
>>320621809
Because when you make the encounters actually difficult, casuals complain about 'artificial difficulty' (see almost any dungeon crawler), and if you remove them entirely then the game becomes a walking simulator/boss rush. It's a necessary evil. Your mention of SMT is especially flawed, because the difficulty of the encounter hardly matters when the main purpose is to recruit new demons.
>>320621809
Encounter rate is high in SMT so you can always have a chance to recruit. Atleast, thats how I've always viewed it.
>>320623327
In SMT4 you can sneak your way past enemies, and later you get a skill where you just insta-kill enemies lower level than you if you bop them pre-emptively
>>320623595
Good point, but I still don't like the concept due to simplistic gameplay.
>>320623723
Didn't know that. But you still need to kill tons of enemies in order to level up enough though I'm sure there will be anons claiming there is no need to grind.
>>320623534
>main purpose is to recruit new demons
Well then they could make it so you get larger percentage chance and lower the encounter rate.
>>320623723
Not only that, but getting ambushed or failing a negotiation can fuck your shit up (not as often in 4 compared to older SMT games though)
This is one of the reasons I thought undertale was refreshing and new. Although there are random encounters they're pretty infrequent so you only have to repeat any fight once or twice, unless you're doing a genocide run which I didn't like because of how shitty and grindy it becomes
>>320623875
>But you still need to kill tons of enemies in order to level up
I was under-leveled parts of the game, and IV is such an easy game that it went fine, even though it was my very first SMT. In fact, I'd say it was more broken to be underleveled, because I literally leveled up every second battle once I reached Pluto's castle, so I never ran out of TP (even though you can just walk in circles if you're desperate, but that's no fun)
Asians enjoy the grind. It's been noted time and again, it's no secret. They dont like challenge/difficulty as much, and prefer time investment over skill in most games as a way to lengthen it.
>>320621809
I'm playing the first Yakuza myself right now, and the bosses are all pissing me off.
There's this really fun combo/grappling system they made, and you can use it to your heart's content on the dumb cannon fodder enemies you encounter all over the streets of tokyo, but then when you encounter a boss the entire focus of the combat changes and you can't hit them with any combos and they almost always break out of your grabs. I just beat the guy who runs around with the guns and, and it turned out the most efficient way to beat him was just to run around those machines in the corner of the map so he can't shoot you, wait until he does his rapid fire special move, then run out and hit him with weapons a couple of times while he's recovering from it, rinse and repeat.
If I tried to actually fight him using all the cool moves I had, he would just do fifteen backflips in a row while invincible.
And I did figure out you could use those metal pieces lying around as a shield too, but that didn't make any difference to actually hitting the faggot.
Still like the game over all but the combat as a whole is disappointing, I hope it gets better in later entries.
What possible alternative is there to random encounters in a turn-based game though?
>inb4 don't use turn-based lol
>>320624006
I was more talking about the fact I got to Matador the first time at lvl13 and he killed me in two turns. I googled a bit and saw that recommended level is 27 or something like that so it equates to a ton of challengeless grind for average player.
>>320624091
That's not the most efficient way, you just dodge him when he takes aim and pound away. I agree that the bossfights and whole combat aspect of it are simplistic as hell. I started Yakuza 2 and so far little has changed, dodging is simply too powerful for the combat to be challenging while the combos are simplistic.
>>320624279
Tightly woven campaign / map design system? I prefer setpieces to enemies appearing from thin air.
>>320624303
Eh, I guess I should have said easiest instead of most efficient.
Dodging him requires you to get down the timing of his attacks.
Staying behind the machinery until he opens himself up doesn't even require you to do that.
The Yakuza series is all about the setting. If you want a truly fun modern japanese beat 'em up try Kenka Banchou (no loading times between encounters, the enemies ream around town like you). Also, the combo and grip customization is godly.
>>320621809
Drakengard kind of actively punished you for playing it.
>>320624279
Look, I enjoy classic rpgs, but turn based is a relic of a bygone age. It was a necessity in making really long games with a lot of enemy appearance variety, but at this point, it's just lazy. There are exceptions, but they're all games where it's not JUST turn based. You can have other impacts on things. Paper mario letting you increase your damage, or reduce damage taken with proper timing, undertale having lite shmup elements. They're all games where you start with a turn based foundation, then add something on there that includes some modicum of skill from the player. The issue with turn based is that your power level is so much more related to how much time you've spent grinding, whether it be leveling up or grinding for the best weapon, or whatever, more so than any other factor.
>>320624404
That's awfully vague, and how would they be any different other than thematically?
>>320624757
Press-turn system is pretty good, I like it
>>320623875
So what, you're just complaining? No one gives a fuck about your opinion
>>320624757
CHESS IS SHIT
FOOTBALL IS WHERE IT'S AT
YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO MOVE THE PLAYERS YOURSELF
>>320624303
Well the guy who wrote that guide is shit at the game.
In no SMT game, maybe except the first?(and that is an old game) did I had to actually grind.
here's a tip faggot: use buffs/debuffs
>>320624830
Gameplay, not theme.
>>320624757
> turn based is a relic of a bygone age
stopped reading
>>320624901
Is that what the paper mario system is called? Yeah, that's probably the best way to do "classic" turn based combat.
>>320625006
Classic turn based games dont have the same units with the same moves on both sides. You can't level up your pawns to make them move in more directions or take more hits. That's a shit comparison and you know it.Plus it's been shown that white has an advantage.
>>320621809
So like every RPG ever?
>>320624757
>literally my inb4
Paper Mario's turn based system is even slower than the traditional RPG as a result of the command inputs(and your complaint about the numbers game still applies), and Undertale is hardly turn based, it's more like shmup with dialogue options.
Personally I don't have a problem with games giving you the option to grind to make the game easier for yourself, but it is rarely necessary
>>320625332
Not really.
>>320625271
>You can't level up your pawns to make them move in more directions
EXCUSE YOU, NIGGER?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Promotion_%28chess%29
>>320623875
>Didn't know that. But you still need to kill tons of enemies in order to level up enough though I'm sure there will be anons claiming there is no need to grind.
There is no need to grind.
>I googled a bit and saw that recommended level is 27
Whoever said this is an absolute pleb. I hope you're remembering it incorrectly.
>>320625271
Paper Mario's system is called command input or something, Press Turn is what SMT post Nocturne uses. You and the enemy get one action per demon on your turn(bosses have more), and you can get more by hitting enemy weaknesses or landing crits. However if you miss or the enemy nulls your attack, you lose 2 actions, and if they repel or drain it they lose all of their actions. If you've played Nocturne or IV you'll see that it makes for fast paced gameplay(but we are kinda getting off topic here)
>>320624303
You can beat Matador no problem the instant you get something that nulls wind and dudes with evasion buffs/debuffs
Getting Nozuchi at level 14 is the standard strategy for it
>>320626230
Well it still requires slogging around looking for demons to fuse. Tons of fiddling with menus. Nothing difficult but time consuming.
>>320623875
Just killing enemies is actually a pretty inefficient way to level up though, you get way more points doing quests and you get more XP by recruiting demons than by killing them.
>>320626586
>complaining about playing the game
If you didn't want a menu simulator you shouldn't have bought one
>>320626586
There's a shop where you can trade jewels for elemental demons, including a level 7 Aquans with Sukukaja. You buy one, fuse it with something to get an sturdier demon with Sukukaja and there you go, you beat Matador.
Maybe rpgs are just not for you? If you dont like this kind of game walk away.
And I rather have turn based than action shit press x to win. Do people really want for every rpgs to become a poor man's musou?
>>320626586
Building up your team to fight your enemies is pretty much the entire point of the game
If you don't like it then that's fine, but that's what other people play it for and enjoy
>>320625431
The issue with turn based is not the fact that it's slow, it's that your ability to win is mostly influenced by your time spent. I also agree that games should have a way to increase your power if you're stuck somewhere, but it shouldn't be "spend 5 hours grinding trivial shit and now the boss is a joke". Player skill be a bigger factor in combat. An increase in player skill over the course of the game is still more important. Increases in character power should be through giving the player more options and ways to use their power, not just X move does 20% more damage and you have 20% more hp.
>>320627308
That's why I like SMT games
The back and forth fight of buffing and debuffing, targeting weaknesses to get more turns, and making sure you have a balanced team with resistances and covering the weaknesses of others makes it pretty engaging to me, with the numbers not mattering too much
>>320627681
I havn't gotten around to playing them yet, but the way it was described earlier seems like a good way to make turn based better.
>>320627308
>ability to win is based on time spent
Is the problem with that not that grinding is long boring and tedious? How does fast gameplay not improve? Does the time put into 'skill based games' not also equate to increasing your ability to win?
Your second point sounds interesting but in what way could you implement something like that?
>>320627225
>>320626984
Well I think my complaint about pacing is legitimate still. I'm not complaining about core concepts.
>>320627791
My main problem with SMT/Persona is aforementioned encounter padding and the really bare bone dungeon design. They are for the most part just corridors and there's no discovery to be had, unless you're stuck in a labyrinth which is more of a convolution than revelation. Main draw is Kaneko who is the best art designer in vidya history in my opinion. Would love to wear his fashion line had he had one.
>>320628084
>Kaneko fashion line
I can dig it
>>320627820
Yeah, grind time is often boring and tedious, but that's a result of that fact that no player skill increase is needed. Your time spent grinding doesn't change how you play, it just increases numbers. You're just doing the same thing over and over so you can eventually do the same thing to the boss.
As for the second part, take DMC4 for example. As you unlock new moves it increases your capabilities. For the most part, it's not "Your x-x-x combo now does 20% more damage", it's adding of new abilities, new stances, things that aren't a direct upgrade and invalidate other things you already had. They're moves that you can combine with what you already have and build upon your skill. They aren't really as useful just on their own, but require the player to increase in skill along with them. If you get an uppercut move, it's only going to be minimally useful unless you learn how to combo with that. If you get Fira, there's not very much reason to use Fire any more.
>>320628084
But there's nothing wrong with the pacing in SMT. Would you prefer it if you went straight from one boss to the next? The game would be 4 hours long. If you play through only fighting whatever encounters you're forced into as well as doing the side quests then you aren't grinding nor does the pacing feel too slow.
>>320626586
Fuck off.
In playing Nocturne for the first time right now and beat Matador first time no issues.
I honestly thought it was /v/ being typical shitty /v/ with how easy he died.
>>320628786
You're simplifying my argument. I just find it strange that the gameplay pacing consists of hours of simplistic encounters followed by a challenging bossfight. It makes events in between look like a slog.
>>320628975
good
now git
>>320629096
>hours of simplistic encounters
>hours
But that's wrong
Didn't you say you haven't played the games yet? You probably should
>>320624830
Riviera: The Promised Land
>>320628748
Play Etrian Odyssey
Because ideally, if the game is fun, you won't fucking care about encounters. SMT games never felt like a slog because I enjoy the systems. If you don't enjoy the core game, of course its going to be boring.
>>320624009
>They dont like challenge/difficulty as much, and prefer time investment over skill in most games as a way to lengthen it.
Explain fighting games then.
>>320629284
I played Persona 4, 3, DDS and Nocturne and there is tons of encounter padding.
>>320629659
You can just run away from enemies in P3 and 4 though.
Drakensgard is legitimately at bad game but trying to say SMT is bad is silly if you had a diverse enough team you could keep healing and debuff the boss for long enough to find his weakness and then win.
tldr; git gud
Random mooks serve a clear purpose:
They are there to wear you out.
When its an RPG they chip at your health and make you waste healer mana or items.
The goal is to reach the end without running out of resources and then dealing with a tough boss.
If you played some RPGs you should remember those longass caves with obnoxious confusion and posion enemies that can fuck with you really hard.
They are easy when you look at them as a single encounter, but ultimately they still fulfill a specific role.
For an action game like Yakuza they should simply tweak the gameplay. Random mooks are really enjoyable enemies in Godhand as an example.
>>320629858
True, but I do need to gather some xp.
>>320629571
Beats me, I was just going off what Inafune said. He knows the japanese gaming market better than I do.
>>320628748
> If you get Fira, there's not very much reason to use Fire any more.
It costs lest energy to use Fira. Certain enemies may relfect/absorb attacks back and a stronger attack means more damage getting bounced back.
An in general RPGs aren't about testing twich skill, its testing your ability to pull a team together and adapt to changing situations in a fight. and managing resources through a dungeon.
>but I can just grind 99 potions and cheese it
A lot of games can be cheesed, some people even enjoy cheesing shit. If you want to ruin the game for yourself that way then fine.
>>320629939
This so much fucking this. it's about pushing your characters till they can't go any further, arriving back to town in one piece and pushing on again. Going a little farther each time and finding something new.
If that doesn't appeal to you, then you simply don't like RPGs.
>>320630130
Then don't run away from all of them.
>>320630130
Gather the XP you need and run away then. How is that padding?
>>320630506
>>320630145
>inafune
>>320630145
>Inafune
>knows the japanese gaming market
fuck you fucking faggot
>>320630145
>Western games like to challenge things
Well they challenge notions of sanity more and more each day
>>320629939
this so much. The problem really stems from casualisation that removes their importance completely
>free warps to town (and back sometimes)
>regenerating mana
>mooks can be killed with just standard attacks at any point in the game
>ability to save anywhere
>barely any penalty for death
>>320624303
>mfw the arena fights in Yakuza 2
>just spam basic combo with no hard attacks
>>320624659
But isn't there only one translated Kenka Bancho?
>>320631342
Is it like that? Because it was like that in one.
>>320631491
It's worse in the Majima fight because knocking him down makes him do a fast as fuck stab. So I spent the whole fight just doing the basic square attack combo
>>320631638
I guess you play that series for the atmosphere and minigames, it seems to be barely above the Deadly Premonition level combat wise.
>>320621809
> grinding your way
> SMT IV
Please tell me this isn't your first time in an SMT game? otherwise, git gud.
>>320631865
git back to your hugbox
>>320630197
You can do resource management and adapting to varying situations with better combat though. Most RPGs do that, not just turn based ones.
>>320631431
Yeah, I'm a moonreader, but I would say the first one for ps2, whis is pretty great, doesn't block you too much if you don't know Japanese. Maybe the "banter" lines, but you don't even need them to go through the game, and you can skip the tutorial.
It's really a beat 'em up after all.
>>320631961
It's true though
The only reason you should need to grind in IV if you aren't a shitter is if you really want the high level demons, or if you're doing those retarded quests where you have to buy those club cards
>>320631961
Maybe you should.
> tweak your demon's affinity.
> Don't fight a losing battle.
> conserve mana as much as possible.
> Avoid those demons when you think you're not in a good shape.
> bring restoration items but don't buy alot to deplete your macca.
It's not that hard.
>>320627154
But turn based RPGs are literally just press X to win though
>>320632051
Can you? When I play action RPGs I never run out of resources because the action elements allow me to bypass any sort of damage.
>>320627154
most jrpgs make dynasty warriors look like a complex game with depth
>>320632539
>i've never played SMT
>i've never played EO
>i've never played any dungeon crawler
>>320621809
>Padding = Something I don't like
>>320621809
SMT encounters can easily wipe your party though in the PS2 releases, if they hit a weakness on your party then they are gonna instagib you most of the time
>>320632895
smt isnt very complicated its only engaging because of its demon negotiations
>>320632539
I bet you beat Fire Emblem on Maniac or Lunatic.
>>320632983
Pretty poor gameplay design if you ask me.
>>320633054
>moving the goalposts
The point is that it's not press x to win
>>320633142
>random encounters are dumb because they are too easy
>hey there's this game where they aren't easy
>lol bad design
>>320632895
I have, and the only button you actually use in any of those is the confirm button, such as X or A
>>320624303
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p2KYwLx7GM
>>320633708
huehuehue very funny
>>320633610
But my point was that they're either trivial or they suddenly ramp it up to insta wipe. Sure you can adjust but first playthrough is always wondering when you're gonna hit a wall.
>>320633852
>provided he keeps spamming Mazan
such tactics
This is basically why dungeon crawlers are the most autistic of genres. At least in bullet hell shooters everything is depending on your skill.
>>320633708
> directional buttons aren't even used.
Sarcasm aside, you know there was an RPG controller back then?
Because . you know, RPG element came from a texts based game back in the days where you pretty much Input Y and N as commands most of the time.
>>320634020
>it needs to be hard but you can't die from it
But then it's not hard
>>320626586
It requires creating a strategy anon.
When I got to matador I realized my current setup wouldn't work so I fused a demon with null force and bought the null force magatama from the shop.
It's an rpg not an action game. You gotta use your head.
>>320621809
Welcome to JRPGs. Your OP pic is a bad example though, it's not unusual to get your party wiped by regular encounters in SMT games, and dungeon crawlers in general. It encourages preparation.
>>320634305
My whole complaint is about pacing of the game which stems from the amount of encounters you have to pass.
>>320634397
I apologize for being facetious, I just think that SMT gameplay can be improved.
>>320633449
>not being able to tell posters apart from one another
>>320625112
You don't really have to grind in the first, either. Just from fighting every enemy I came across, my MC got fucking super powered and was one or two shotting everything with physical weapons.
I was autobattling my way through end-game areas by just having him, my demons, and tits mcgee firing her gun.
If there's one thing I love about japan, it's that they're afraid of change.
Long live turn based grindfests.
>>320634473
> SMT gameplay can be improved.
Well we're not really the developers, of the game. You can send them suggestions on how it will improve and what not. not just "this system is flawed, improve it!" kind of thing.
Why not make a system that you thought will improve the game, like you know... make your own game?
>>320634579
>him, my demons
him and my demons attack, i meant
>>320634473
>amount of encounters you have to pass
Which is not very much in SMT
What are you even complaining about? I'm not really sure
>>320621809
Its partially a cultural thing.
Long= Good to them.
>>320634715
The DDS games do have a pretty crazy encounter rate
>>320634678
It's completely fair to question pacing and simplistic combat
>>320634929
Yeah I know, but without really coming up with a better solution will make the whole thing look like a whine.
> I don't like grinding.
> remove it.
> What to replace that gap?
??????
It's a really weird postion.
I'm sorry it's just I work in the industry that it's hard to make a complaint bout the gameplay without making a suggestion to replace it.
>>320634473
SMT has some of my favorite gameplay as far turn based rpg's go.
My guess is you just don't like turn based RPGs, or you maybe you like action RPGs like dark souls.
>>320635224
Thinning encounter padding and focusing more on map design is a pretty clear cut solution before even going into gameplay tweaks. Unless someone wishes to claim that 100 hour SMT campaign is better than a 10 hour one.
>>320635310
I do like turn based RPG games, and notice I also mentioned Yakuza which is a very light RPG beat em up with tons of simplistic encounters.
>>320635310
From what I gather, his problem is more the amount and difficulty of encounters. He doesn't like how between plot and bosses, you run into scores of shitters which take time, but no thought, to defeat.
My guess is he'd like it better if there were fewer encounters, but those were more difficult. Like five lesser minibosses rather than 50 random encounters.
Hey OP, play Riviera: The Promised Land. (The GBA version, ideally; the PSP version somehow manages to be inferior; and the WSC one is JP only.)
>>320636005
If those 100 hours are good then yes, they are better than 10.
>>320621809
>Why do Japanese so adore this kind of endless, mind numbing grind?
The thing is that if you need to grind then most of the time you're doing something wrong. Just try different approaches to the enemy/boss that is giving you trouble. Many people try to brute force their way through the game since it's the simplest way to beat it and then complain about grinding.
>>320636005
padding map will bloat the memory of the system. while you can add more maps than you want to. it will add alot of graphical strain to the system where the game is being developed for.
Another thing is alot of newer designs will have to be made and newer graphical models needs to be sculpted which came back from the first comment I made.
Not to mention that the game has alot of animated 2d bitmaps as enemies that they have to call out everytime it's placed in a map.
Another thing to consider is the development time needed to be kept because time= money and we all know that ATLUS isn't really a big company to begin with.
Please take those to consideration,
> inb4 put it to pc as a solution.
The Etrian Odyssey games might be something you're looking for in the sense that they have random encounters that can and on occasion WILL fuck you up, and they aren't actually all that numerous (if you walk only through the shortcuts of a completely mapped floor, you might run into none or one). Plus there's the FOEs that you often have to dance around or come up with a proper method to beating.
Pretty funny how the series seems to have only gotten harder and harder over time, with EO4 being the only exception in the middle (and a great introduction to the series).
>>320636474
The whole point is that you cannot avoid encounters in Yakuza or some SMT games.
>>320636473
Think about it for a minute. Bigger is never better unless you want to reach procedural type of nonexistant level design.
>>320636638
What I'm saying that 10 hour content is better than stretching it to a 100hr one.
>>320637349
> What I'm saying that 10 hour content is better than stretching it to a 100hr one.
I think I'm seeing the problem here.Do you play games on the go? because the primary audiences these JRPGs are after are people who plays on their free time going to work/ school and when they're board during their travel is they have to play something keep themselves occupied.
You can look at the famous asian mobile games catalog and you'll see most of them were games based on the JRPG system.
>>320637349
>you cannot avoid encounters in Yakuza or some SMT games.
Well, you can at least reduce the number. Isn't that your problem with the encounters? Also try playing the first Wizardry trilogy on DOS, every encounter is meaningful. Not japanese but it's kinda like a grandfather to many things you see in japanese games.
>>320637739
Well I see more of a problem in a picture you painted there which was part of my question/assumption. I also do not think that JRPG is a single type of concept.
>>320637830
You cannot reduce the number of them because you still have to go from point A to B, it's not dependant on you. Though I messed it up, you can avoid many encounters in Yakuza but there's still plenty to be had and the end game just showers you with shit.
I like Wizardry because it's very challenging so you don't feel like the game is trying to stretch the playthrough.
>>320637153
>EO3
>harder than EO2
>>320637349
>Bigger is never better
So you want these games to be over incredibly fast with little to no content to keep you plying beyond the main (bare bones) story?
I have to disagree, I spent $40 I want to get as much from that as possible.
>>320637349
Looking at your posts makes me think you'll like walking simulators, anon.
>>320638437
10 hours is not incredibly fast anon. Here's the thing - if setpieces are good and gameplay isn't simplistic the replay value can be huge. I don't think any game ever made had more than 20ish hours of worthwhile content and that's being generous.
It's like claiming that Metal Gear Rising is only 5 hours long.
>>320638513
You misjudged me, anon.
japan loves the grind so much that when chrono trigger, a game with virtually no padding, was rereleased they added two new areas exclusively designed around backtracking
The first Yakuzas had more unavoidable padder enemies but not the latter because they made it easier to avoid them and also put in more avoidance items. In fact you won't be really fighting at all outside any mission anymore.
>>320638663
just to add, 'worthwhile content' is the amount of variation, not incentive to play/replay.
>>320638761
>latter
later*
Okay I think I see what you're saying.
You'd prefer set encounters over random encounters that could potentially be the same enemy 10 times in a row or something like that right?
>>320638870
>later
aligator
>>320638909
The impression I got is that, combined with really difficult encounters to push him within a short time frame of about 10 hours for replay.
>>320638663
>10 hours is not incredibly fast anon
Yes, they are. That's barely enough to cover the main story of a game let alone all of the bonus things and activities you can do.
>>320638909
So he wants Dragon age origins then.
Even this game lasts longer than 10 hours in a single playthrough unless you skip all of the side quests and just do things to forward in the story.
>>320637349
You should play paper Mario sticker star.
Seriously, that game is made for people like you.
>>320638113
>You cannot reduce the number of them because you still have to go from point A to B, it's not dependant on you.
Estoma.
That accessory in Yakuza that reduces agression from random guys on the street.
>>320624091
>>320624303
I don't know how you're playing but the most efficient way to fight any boss are the special moves. Maybe the first one didn't execute this as well, I can't remember. I think in the first one I might have stocked on guns and swords and spammed them against bosses.
The only exception I can remember is the completely optional Sotaro Komaki in underground colisseum, being the final enemy there. The only way to fight him was dodge attack.
>>320639135
This is the first time I've ever seen someone recommend Sticker Star in earnest
>>320638909
This isn't a bad idea but I don't think it needs to replace traditional random encounters. It'd be nice to see more games with this type of thing but something like SMT or Pokemon is much better suited to having random encounters
>>320639113
I'm not counting non-interactive elements, just bare gameplay. Why is it better to fight 50 Jack Frost encounters than 5 if they're all the same? I don't get it. It's okay to do same thing several times, but these kinds of games throw it at you dozens upon dozens and it's not like you're going to lose or misplay.
>>320639271
I didn't know Komaki was secret boss there, but I think Majima is also the boss you have to dodge in the final bossfight with him.
>>320639380
Yes, I was talking about just gameplay.
Side missions and quests add up, a 10 hour frame can't even hold something like twilight princess' main story and that's without doing side things. Not to mention you don't have to fight most of the enemies in that.
>>320639492
Yeah Majima with his dagger. Komaki is ridiculous though. It's not even just "dodge and attack" but the specific dodge and knee move seemingly being the only move that can even harm him.
The earlier Yakuzas either were more difficult than the modern ones or I've just gotten better... I don't understand why people lock difficulty levels in 2015.
>>320639035
Alright well with that in mind I can see where OP is coming from.
But the fact of the matter is that a game like that would be REALLY hard to design properly and a lot could go wrong.
Drop rates would have to be modified or gotten rid of altogether if you are only going to encounter a enemy a certain amount of times in the game amongst other things.
Levels would also have to be a lot smaller since with specific encounter points you can't really have super long stretches of hallway after hallway with nothing happening (unless you add something happening besides fights).
None of those I think are necessarily bad changes though and the idea seems pretty solid. Just a bit touchy and lots of room for error and I frankly don't know if I trust the average JRPG to be that creative.
>>320639890
I think the dodge and knee move acts like a parry move. Komaki gives you what, half a second to initiate it when he launches a punch.
>>320640237
Literally Riviera: The Promised Land.
![latest[1].png](https://i.imgur.com/H5XUC9i.png "latest[1].png")
>>320638427
Well, it all depends on your party comp, but I'd say so, yeah.
>>320637153
>great lynx
>green birb
>king starfish
>dinosaur babies
>those crazy fish niggas in abyssal shrine
>sauroposeidon
>white fox
>sickwood
>pretty much everything sixth stratum
EO3's random encounters were fucking great
>>320640576
my nigga
Too bad OP ignored me when I pointed this out earlier >>320636328
>Sting hasn't talked about any new DHE game since Gungnir
>stuck making licensed moe titles and JP-only smartphone games
>the updates on their page are only ever about the weather
it hurts
>>320621809
>posting like it's the very first time you've basically seen a jrpg or japaneses games in general
Just how fucking old are you, millennial?
>>320641348
Man, Sting must be the most underrated developer ever. When you want to play a FUCKING ORIGINAL JAPANESE RPG you just need to pick a Dept. Heaven game and you're all set. Dungeon Travelers was great too.
>>320622535
Nah bro that's the definition of a shitty (all) Jap RPG.
>RPGs with battle mechanics from another genre
Sigma Star Saga a best
>>320641558
Everything is known beforehand and nothing needs to be questioned, said anon in his infinite wisdom.
>>320640237
Drop rates are always, without exception, a skinner box system. Not completely evil, but mostly.
>>320642835
>rare drops
>rare enemies with rare drops
>>320643206
>1/64 encounter rate with a 1/64 rare drop rate
Fucking FFIV
>>320624915
Fuck off retard, discussion is bred from innocuous questions. Hell, few weeks back somebody made a thread asking who'd win out of solid snake and fucking Kevin Mcallister. Roll with the punches or go back to your circlejerking threads
>>320643206
>conditional drops
>random conditional drops
>>320643884
>boss with a unique rare drop
>>320644059
>boss you can only fight once
>has a rare dropI just made this up on the spot but I really hope no game does this
>>320628084
Persona 4 had hallways.
Rest of the games usually have some semblance of actual dungeons. Except for the majority of IV sadly.
Unless you mean they're literally just made up of corridors in which case what else did you expect
>>320644220
there's plenty of games that do this
I know at least a few Final Fantasies have done this
>>320644225
Dungeons in SMT/Persona are just means to an end, an afterthought so map design might as well be a straight line.
>>320644369
>you start the game just to end it
>so the whole game is just a straight line
what the fuck are you saying
>>320644369
>dungeon crawler
>'the dungeons are an afterthought'
what the fuck are you on about
>>320644504
I'm saying that there's nothing to explore or interact with when dungeons are concerned, all those twists and turns serve no purpose but to delay you.
>>320644593
They are just monster playgrounds.
>>320621809
>SMT games usually have a boss that simply waves you away the first time you slog through to him.
Name one boss that does this
>>320639271
I wasn't aware he appeared in the earlier coliseums, but I fought him a few days back in Y4 and he was crazy, like literally teleporting over the whole map. I could barely hit him too, considering I was playing super slow Saejima at the time too. Had to cheese him at the end by running shoulder dashing him
>>320644683
Just how many dungeons have you gone through in SMT?
What do you expect there to be in a dungeon? They are challenges to be surmounted so that you can get to the end and get a reward, usually after fighting a boss.
Boy I'd love to hear your dream game
>>320644704
Matador. But I'm sure your superior skill trumped what most players experienced.
>>320644871
Compare dungeon design of King's Field or Arx Fatalis with blase corridors of SMT games.
>>320644959
Fair enough I suppose. But he's basically the magatama/buff tutorial.
>>320644593
the dungeons in SMT are super lame mostly, the worst offenders being the Persona series after 1 and the first 2 SMT games
>>320644959
>Compare dungeon design of these two action games with this turn based RPG
>>320644959
>what most players experienced.
What? Dying once then bringing buffs and wind resistant demons? Do you expect to beat every boss in your first try?
>>320645232
Nothing stopping SMT to replicate that sort of exploration. You would do well to remember the 'exploration' is in real time.
>>320645489
Why would that be unrealistic? It doesn't mean the game is easy.
>>320644959
I haven't played either of those games, so feel free to tell me what they do differently in their dungeons.
In my experience dungeons have always been simply a series of trials to get to an end point with a payoff.
Anyway here's what happened when I pasted together the results from "Arx Fatalis dungeon" and "SMT Dungeon"
the latter being from Strange Journey not Nocturne but still, even in Nocturne most dungeons aren't just hallways. That's pretty much Persona territory
>>320645489
>Name one boss that does this
>Matador
>hurr do you expect to beat every boss on the first try
>>320645942
when the only depth in a game is countering a boss when he fucks you up, yes you are expected to lose once or twice
>>320646112
Why ask what boss waves you away the first time then?
>>320645806
>Why would that be unrealistic?
Because you would have to know in advance what you'll fight.
>>320645863
You see that dungeon on the left? All you have to do when exploration is concerned is to 'activate machine' or 'open altar'. Just because they have twists and turns doesn't mean they're well designed. Good design would be if player's observation meant something, like interacting with walls for start.
>>320645806
>that sort of exploration
>Why would that be unrealistic
It just sounds like you want to change SMT in to a type of game it isn't.
It's about going around and getting lost in dungeons, hopefully unlocking some checkpoints then figuring out the bosses weakness, or at least a competent strategy to beat him.
Personally I find it refreshing to have a jrpg where literally any party composition can beat the game at any time. If you are adequately prepared the first time, you can still beat a boss on your first try as long as you have a wealth of demons and moves available to you, you just might have to switch your party around while in the actual fight.
>>320646404
Why not adapt on the spot? I managed to beat some moderately difficult Fire Emblem maps on the first try. And in some I died because the game decided to throw bunch of enemies without any possiblity of me knowing they would come from the left flank mid-game. It's trial and error and should be avoided in game design.
>>320646440
>Just because they have twists and turns doesn't mean they're well designed. Good design would be if player's observation meant something, like interacting with walls for start.
There are plenty of SMT dungeons that require interaction with things. If a player is paying attention he can usually get through any dungeon in the games just fine, most dungeons introduce you to a mechanic like teleporting or trap floors in a safe environment first, then expect you to deal with any instances of it later.
They even have optional item pickups off beaten paths to incentivize exploration, but they're usually hidden behind harder obstacles.
All that is contingent on a players observation. I don't know what you're doing, but if you just blindly continue in most SMT dungeons, you'll just be wandering in circles or you'll run out of any SP before you get to the boss.
>>320646931
>They even have optional item pickups off beaten paths to incentivize exploration
Damn, really?
>>320647037
They are usually just consumables but they can be really good ones like Somas or Revival Beads.
SMT actively encourages item use which is something I like, and it punishes you by making sure you can only carry a max of like 10 of any really good healing item. So if you hoard items you'll waste a lot of them by picking up a chest only to throw an item away
>>320646931
>wandering in circles
don't all smt games have map on demand ensuring it's impossible to get lost unless you're a retard?
>>320646552
it's a question of pacing with a sprinkle of gameplay tenets, not overall gameplay theme. i doubt smt would change for the worse if dungeons were suddenly more interactive.
>>320647392
>They are usually just consumables but they can be really good ones like Somas or Revival Beads.
That's crazy man people who think about this must be some kind of genius
>>320647693
I'm not saying SMT can't improve, my very first post and I still hold to it, is that SMT dungeons are much more than "hallways with no interactivity" like you claimed. Just look at the labyrinth of Amala, tons of shit to interact with. Switches, elevators, doors or whatever else. You're just blatantly lying about a game while complaining about them.
>>320621809
Responding to the OP is rather useless since this thread was made at 11 am. But I'd like to ask this to whoever cares enough to read this and reply who also agreed with the OP.
Why are some people here so fixated in complaining about any small detail that annoys them? Why not just shut up, adapt and enjoy or dislike the game for what is?
>>320621809
Responding to the OP is rather useless since this thread was made at 11 am. But I'd like to ask this to whoever cares enough to read this and reply who also agreed with the OP.
Why are some people here so fixated in complaining about any small detail that annoys them? Why not just shut up for a moment, adapt to the game, and enjoy or dislike it for what it is?
>>320648168
It's not useless, I'm a NEET with 4chanX. You're a retard though, shouldn't you be writing Youtube comments?
>>320648056
>Switches, elevators, doors or whatever else.
Those are just obvious interactions that offer no exploration incentive. You might as well point out there's a floor you can walk on!
>>320648652
As opposed to what other interaction?
Do you want Doom where the player has to just walk along walls spamming the same button to look for a secret?
>>320648542
I'm on my phone, sorry for fucking that up.
But my point stands still.
Why try to rationalize so hard to don't play a game instead of just plainly dropping it, or try to enjoy it?
>>320648857
I mentioned other examples, like King's Field and Arx Fatalis, even Grimrock can be mentioned and those are just dungeon crawlers. Stop arguing with strawman, for fucks sake.
>>320649169
and I told you to talk about what Arx Fatalis and King's Field do and you just told me to look up a map.
I've played grimrock and that's a good point, but like you pointed out, grimrock is a pure dungeon crawler. There was literally nothing in that game that wasn't designed around dungeons. SMT manages to have an actual game and some generally decent dungeons. The only counterargument you've mentioned is something about hidden doors and "interactivity and exploration" as if SMT didn't have that
>>320649156
Because I played the game and I like talking about gameplay mechanics. I don't particularly care about plot of any game, the storytelling is in the gameplay.
>>320648857
>He hasn't played Strange Journey
