Why is Legate Lanius protrayed throughout the whole of New Vegas as nothing more than a brutal deranged man with nothing but thoughts of victory and slaughter, when in fact he is one of the most rational? He is only one of the 3 main factions willing to admit Hoover Dam is "but a place" and leave it to the enemy, and makes the most salient point in the game: it wasn't democracy, autocracy or the riches of the old world that awakened you and caused your rise, it was violence, the two bullets Benny put in your head.
>Spend years and have thousands of you troops die to reach objective
>Give up on objective when you're directly in front of it
With writing so bad, it's no wonder NV isnt canon.
>>320538896
It's OK when Obsidian does it!
>>320538896
The Legion can't hold the West with its current stregnth, not without losing the East anyway. The fact they it took so many troops and years is proof of that fact and its the argument you make. Lanius chooses the smart option and quits while he's ahead, and in doing so doesn't make the same mistake the real Romans made.
Saw a really interesting post today about how ceasar is the best choice for the wasteland, Don't remember exactly what it said but the tldr is basically:
>NCR and brotherhood/enclave are bad because they rely too heavily on recent old world ideals and technology that, while abundant, was limited and proven to eventually fail
>ceasar takes his ideals from a civilization that is tribal enough to exist easily in the wasteland, yet proven to last for thousands of years
>even if ncr won, corrupt politicians would bring about an end similar to the end of old america, as shown with the white gloves
Ceasar would unite all under one banner yadda yadda
>>320539350
Ok, so don't hold the West, that doesn't mean you just give up and let the NCR continue to hold the dam when you could at least destroy it depriving your most dangerous enemy of a valuable resource.
>>320539632
He won't. He says he will return East, but won't remain there forever. By the time you get to the Legate to make the argument, the NCR, House or Yes Man will have already retaken the dam. The fight against Lanius is basically the Legions last stand, by then you've already infiltrated their camp.
>>320539434
>the ncr relies too much on old world ideas
>but its okay when someone else dresses up in football gear and pretends to be ancient romans
smart
>>320539434
But didn't the Roman Empire arise from a republic with corrupt politicians?
>>320539997
No, it ended because of that.
>>320538717
>protrayed throughout the whole of New Vegas as nothing more than a brutal deranged man
I don't remember exactly who, maybe Ulysses, Vulpes or Caesar himself says to not underestimate his intelligence despite his brutality. Obviously all of Legion's opponents want to portray him as evil as possible, so it comes off as bit of a surprise when he's actually quite rational.
Though I agree that both he and Oliver really lack characterization. I can understand not having them available for meeting because the player could remove the game's final bosses before the final battle, but I still wish they had something more than just other people talking about them. Maybe have some official NCR radio station with Oliver and Kimball's speeches before you meet either of them or some scripted events with Lanius, something that enables you to meet him, but unable to actually kill him like with DM and OWB cast.
>>320538717
But is he really rational or did the Courier just implant his ideas in him with the speech checks?
>>320539839
>NCR, House or Yes Man will have already retaken the dam
It's a shame The Legion is so poorly written that Caesar just lets the courier get away with activating an entire robot army that threatens his entire plan for no reason when it's completely avoidable.
>>320538717
He's a potential threat to almost all factions. Why would they glorify him?
>>320538717
Because you only hear about him through propaganda, where the NCR demonize him as a bloodcrazed savage and the Legion prop him up as a relentless commander with no tolerance for failure. They're just rumours that turned out to be somewhat inaccurate after you actually met the man.
>>320540202
What do you mean? Before Ceasar, Rome had a legitimate senate
>>320540480
More like a gang of old nepotists who were mostly concerned about lining their own pockets and expanding their power through the looting of the provinces they were meant to govern.
>>320540605
thats nice, but do you have proofs?
>>320540480
If you listen to Ceasar, he modelled The Legion off Rome for that reason. Ceaser is a former NCR citizen, now turned Emperor. He see's himself as the "Ceaser" that will cross the Rubicon and end the NCR (the republican Rome) along with its corruption and infighting. The Colorado River is his Rubicon.
>>320540605
But nonetheless that led to Augustus sooo
>>320540224
>Asking Caesar about him reveals that Lanius was a member of a tribe hostile to Caesar's Legion, the Hidebarks, and Lanius was the bloodthirsty champion of that tribe, sometimes ambushing entire groups of legionaries by himself. Caesar's Legion then tracked down the Hidebarks, although when they knew that they wouldn't be able to win against Caesar, they chose to surrender. Lanius saw this act as a betrayal to the tribe and it drove him into a bloodthirsty frenzy; killing the Chieftain and 15 others of his own tribe single-handedly before he was knocked unconscious. When Lanius woke up, most of his face was torn off and Caesar was standing beside him. He offered Lanius a place in the Legion and a mask forged in the image of the great god Mars especially for him. Lanius accepted Caesar's proposal, but in return he wanted permission to kill the survivors of his old tribe; Caesar demanded that he only kill the adult males.
>Lanius is not well-liked within the Legion, and it seems that both Caesar and Vulpes Inculta harbor doubts at his ability to lead the Legion. Caesar openly admits that he does not think Lanius is worthy of being called a "great man" and believes he has no "love" for his Legion. Vulpes is more reserved, but criticizes his blunt methods and shows quiet celebration if Caesar is saved, thus preventing Lanius from becoming the new leader of the Legion for the time being.
He might have some intelligence behind him, but his behaviour is nothing beyond that of a cudgel. Caesar knows when to try and stop fighting, Lanius would drive the Legion into the ground with his bloodlust.
>>320539434
They employ crucifixions, slavery and misogyny. People of today wouldn't support their barbaric edgy ways. Good thing too.
>>320540605
The Republic was still a democracy that gave the poorer chances to rise up, which is exactly how Caesar himself gained power though he was from a lower class of nobility.
>>320538896
>>320539007
Seriously, New Vegas is so overrated it is ridiculous. The writing is just as shitty as Fallout 3 but it gets praised constantly.
>>320541041
>poorer chances to rise up
He was lower nobility, but not a pleb.
>>320541113
[Intelligence] I think you're just trolling.
>Fuck guns and combat armor! Football pads and spears because Rome and shit! Muh Caesar!
Literally the niggers of the Mojave wasteland.
>>320540981
You realize about 90% of that story was made up by Caesar to help hype up Lanius
>>320539434
NCR losing is actually the best option for them as it forces a regime change and stops the stupid expansionism.
Legion winning is shit tier for everyone else though.
![latest[1].jpg](https://i.imgur.com/cpXxgqG.jpg "latest[1].jpg")
>>320541352
>implying
>>320541236
Nope. New Vegas writing is stupid. The Legion are cartoon villians, the NCR are the stereotypical "evil" establishment types, the New Vegas gangsters are completely cliche and boring. Characters constantly say and do things that defy understanding. It's no better than Fallout 3.
>>320541352
Ceaser doesn't allow *recruits* to use guns because he knows (not thinks) it will make them weak and dependant. Higher ranking Legion memeber are allowed to use guns because they already proven themselves capable of fighting with their body, not just technology.
>>320541352
I thought so too but in-game it really really works. Their patrols literally hunted and punched my ass few times over and I really came to appreciate Caesar's statement that his soldiers are always ready to fight unlike NCR's who depend on their weapons and ammo.
In-gameplay this resonates even harder because unlike Fallout 3 the ammo and weapons in NV are more scarce and expensive. Made me kinda regret not going with their tactics because I always shit myself defenseless when they get in my close range.
>>320541505
>MASSIVEBLACK.COM
>>320541621
Ceasar has a very well thought out argument if you actually bother to speak to him, an argument that momentarily makes you forget the reality that he's enslaving and oppressing people. The high ranking currant and former Legion member are among the most philosophical and knowledgable characters in the game (Ulysseys, Ceaser, Joshua Graham, Vulpes). The NCR are not evil, just potrayed realistcally. They offer peace in the Mojave, but at the cost of corruption, just like real life. The New Vegas gangsters are just that; New Vegas gangster, tribals pretending to be civilized. Their suits and hairstyles can't mask their inherant barbarity. Characters don't do anything really that contridicts their motives.
Face it, Bethesda is shit and there is reason /v/ Fallout characters are still a cause for debate 5 years after New Vegas came out.
Reminder that the reason the Legion is so successful in their ambush is that Oliver is a gigantic faggot who wants glory by repelling the Leigon in the Second battle of Hoover Dam instead of pushing into Legion forts.
>>320541771
>>320541823
That may work in-game because you can shoot someone in the face and have them not even fucking flinch, but in any remotely realistic scenario that reasoning is fucking retarded because regardless of training a bullet to the face is a bullet to the fucking face.
>>320542309
>Oliver is a gigantic faggot who wants glory by repelling the Leigon in the Second battle of Hoover Dam instead of pushing into Legion forts.
With what army?
>>320542431
and after a real apocalypse there probably wouldn't be a trillion fucking guns around, and you'd be surprised how much protection some padded armor with reinforced steel plates on top can protect. Their armor is good enough.
>>320541621
>the NCR are the stereotypical "evil" establishment types
But they're not. Their upper echelon is portrayed somewhat corrupted and the bad sides of democracy slow down their developement, but people under NCR rule are usually lot happier than most wastelanders. Most soldiers and citizens are generally nice people. With the Courier at the campaign's helm, you can decide to steer their intentions of Mojave conquering into good or evil results.
>New Vegas gangsters are completely cliche and boring
Only the Omertas could be considered "cliche gansters". What about the Chairmen, the White Glove Society or the Kings?
>Characters constantly say and do things that defy understanding.
Such as?
>>320538896
I guess you're the type of guy who will know he's going to lose a battle but attack anyway because he's already there and might as well.
>>320542431
I threw reality outta the window when we started talking aliens, zombies and Shrek mutants. Game rules dictate mentalities and Caesar proved that football suit wearing savages punching with their pile-driver fists are not only viable but really fucking logically sound in most of the situations I found myself in while playing.
>>320539434
thats what ceasar says if you talk to him
>>320539434
Samefag here, in fallout NV everyone is a shithead, its just a question of which shithead you support
>none of the above is infact an option, you know.
>>320543283
I support myself because I'm the biggest shithead.
>>320539434
>TFW standing is proven by literal physical strength and all you have to do is kill someone I'm order to take their position
>TFW whoever has more men backing them up can change the legion in any way they want because nobody can physically remove them from power
>TFW all it takes to get more support is to make promises for what you would do as leader and campaign for support
>TFW the legion was a democracy all along
>>320541621
>implying this is bad writing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wL0mivVd5xU
>>320538717
I think he and Courier would be bff if they met in other circumstances
>>320541041
Julius Caesar was a Julian, that's not lower class at all.
You're thinking of Octavian, who was adopted by Julius.
>>320543529
>If you kill him, you'll be just like him!
>Good writing
>>320541113
[Intelligence] So you fight the good fight with your posts on 4chan's /v/?
>>320538717
>He is only one of the 3 main factions willing to admit Hoover Dam is "but a place" and leave it to the enemy
You have to convince him of this. Even then, this is not true. Caesar put so much of the Legion's time and efforts into taking the Dam that losing it might ruin the Legion in the future. Especially in the hands of a less charismatic leader.
>and makes the most salient point in the game: it wasn't democracy, autocracy or the riches of the old world that awakened you and caused your rise, it was violence, the two bullets Benny put in your head.
This isn't true, your rise and your reason for your rise is up to you. If Benny hadn't shot you in the head, you most likely would have just delivered the Chip to House and worked for him. Or worked for the NCR, maybe even the Legion. Benny's involvement is a tiny pause to your journey, it is not the reason for it.
>>320542762
>and after a real apocalypse there probably wouldn't be a trillion fucking guns around, and you'd be surprised how much protection some padded armor with reinforced steel plates on top can protect. Their armor is good enough.
Not to mention Legion itself developed from uneducated tribes who fought with simple weapons. Caesar used his book knowledge from his time as a Follower to teach one tribe a new way of living and waging war, then used divide and conquer tactics to gather even more tribes under his flock. The weakness of Legion's low-tech approach is also its strenght, a relatively poorly fitted army compared to other power players, but manned by soldiers who are savagely loyal to their personality cult leader's vision and ready to march to their death.
The reason Caesar refuses his legionaries the luxuries of technology is because it would make them less reliant on their commanders and to Caesar himself. Only exception are his Frumentari who as Caesar himself says, are loyal and capable enough to operate behind enemy lines and use their knowledge without being "stained" by foreign ideas.
>>320538896
>thinking the best strategy is sending your troops to die hoping they win by chance
you need to stop trying to learn militar strategy from warhamer
>>320542607
NCR
>>320538896
That's war for you. Sometimes the smartest thing to do is retreat
>>320539434
Nope, the Legion would have collapsed on itself like the NCR and been even more barbaric and ugly. It'd just be a massive horde of raiders once Caesar died.
Best end is House. NCR needs a loss to rein in their expansion, as does Legion. That leaves House, who runs shit in Vegas and is actively working for a better future, or the courier's anarchy ending, which is more or less neutral but not as good as House,
>>320539434
the problem is Ceaser's Legion isn't the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire was based on the protection of Rome and the elevation of Rome as the greatest city in the world. Caesar's Legion has no Rome, it's a wandering band of mercenaries that only believe in their commanders, which is actually part of why the original Rome fell in the first place, so Caesar's Roman Empire is actually falling as it's rising. The only thing holding it together is Caesar and to a certain extent Lanius.
>>320543850
That's the argument you stupid fuck. Just because you read TV tropes doesn't make you an intelligent consumer. Salt-Upon-Wounds deserves to die, your argument isn't that Joshua Graham killing him is immoral. Your argument and the point of exchange is that Joshua is letting the Legion in him take over the Mormon in him. Its not his place to judge and destroy the White Legs, its Gods. Eradicating them would mean selling his soul to anger and abandoning his faith.
>>320544021
CANNON
FODDER
>>320538896
SUNK
COST
>>320542762
The Gun Runners have means of production though. They're making guns and bullets.
>>320538896
A tactical retreat by cutting your losses? Makes sense to me
By bluffing, you appeal to his fear of becoming a shame to the Legion like the Burned Man, not to mention taking advantage of the tension in the upper echelons of the Legion
http://fallout.gamepedia.com/Lanius'_dialogue
Seriously, NV has faults, but writing is not one of them
>>320544209
>not as good as house
Nigga, House's idea of improving improving he future is an autocratic mini society where people are shoved into line with him running the whole show. Before you show up, Benny is working to kill him, the gangs running his strip are against him, all his robots are running at half capacity, and the NCR and legion are beating down his door. You show up and completely fix everything, but he's willing to throw away the possibility of more great people showing up to save his ego and remain a big retarded king.
>>320538717
No, whatever transient, meta-physical trait that embodies "being the player controlled avatar with bullshit super power perks" is what causes your rise.
And even not going down that philosophy, Benny's just the catalyst of a new kind of courier-borne wreckage.
Even as Ulysses pointed out to you, the Courier's caused a few shenanigans of his/her own even before you get to turn them into some kinda god-ninja-sniper-cannibal-johncena.
>>320544280
That's why Vegas is so important to Ceaser. He literally says in the game "Vegas will be Rome. It will transform the Legion from basically a nomadic tribe to a standing military force that protects its people and the power of its dictator".
>>320544559
Yeah, and the NCR probably has factories of their own, but ammunition shouldn't be so commonnplace. There's literally ammunition fucking everywhere when guns, at least high-caliber ones should be rarer.
>>320544589
DO NOT MENTION THAT MAN
>>320544589
Also, if you once acknowledge the fact that he's going to be running away, he does a complete 180 and goes back to wanting to kill you
>>320544280
Caesar actually calls New Vegas his Rome and acknowledges his flock is currently still in a nomadic phase.
whatever you may think of New Vegas (I personally find the story telling and exploration to be top notch) it is still being talked about in threads to this day.
and nearly no one talks about Fallout 3's plot other than to mock it, and 4 is going the same way.
so say what you will, but something about it is obviously good or noteworthy that we keep talking about it.
>>320540375
That's not poor writing, that's just flat out unfinished content.
Sawyer has talked about all the shit they had to leave out due to time constraints and it's like 99% Legion stuff
>>320538896
Wasn't the whole point that Lanius disagreed with Caesar and wanted to topple him because of this wasted effort at hoover dam?
>>320541353
Oh obviously, but fiction is derived from Truth. Lanius is still worthless even by Caesar's admission
>>320544675
>>320544759
That would make it Rome the city, but would it make it Rome the ideal? Like I said the men of Caesar's Legion show a thought process similar to the Roman Legion during its fall in that they're loyal not to ideals but to their commanding officers, with an exception in this case being loyalty to the highest commanding officer, Caesar, and another being the fear of the second highest officer, Lanius. Edward Sallow is an educated man but he's kept his people ignorant to better control them, and chances are the average Legate cares more about how best to route his enemies than waxing philosophic over some city, case in point being how Lanius takes New Vegas if you let Caesar die. The Legion won't last much longer than the deaths of Caesar and Lanius regardless of the outcome of the Battle of Hoover Dam.
>>320542431
>durr tha leejun pawnch theengs
Guess how I know you haven't played the game?
Legion not only have some badass melee gear like Thermic Lances, but they're also masters of ambushing and trapping thanks to the heritage of the 36 Tribes. They manage to manipulate and storm towns like Nipton and Nelson despite far inferior numbers, and even use things like Rad bombs in Searchlight to great effect despite the fact that they have little expertise.
Yes they lose to the NCR in a straight fight, that's why they fight dirty
Yes Man>House>NCR>Legion
>>320545190
I was thinking the exact same thing earlier. NV threads are still fucking packed, Fallout 4 threads are starting to die aside from "Post your wastelander" shit, and Fallout 3 threads are completely dead aside from the occasional bait threads.
>>320538896
>>320545325
Lanius wants Hoover Dam, same as everyone, and he's probably Caesar's most fanatical supporter
To talk him down you:
>convince him that the ease in the campaign so far was only due to the NCR leaving the dam rully rigged to explode once it's under his control, when he asks why you would tell him this, you say you don't want to win a cowardly victory, appealing to his sense of honor
>alternativly, you can say that your ease in reaching him was because his allies wanted him out from the Legion power structure, it's no mystery to him that Vulpes and the others despise him, and that he should return East and find out who set him up
>convince him that the Legion's complete disregard for any of the population of Nevada will alienate them. Also, the populace are not self-sufficient, they need the NCR to survive anyways. You appeal to his fear during his Colorado campaign when he felt that he was possibly seeing the death of the Legion by the lack of supply the natives there supplied. Ulysses is the one who suggested this one to you in LR.
>And the common one, the Legion has no ability to hold onto both the East as well as the West in a meaningful way. This option makes even more sense when the Omerta's plan gets blown up
>>320546867
Why would the Legion even supply the natives? Just relocate them or draft them into the army. They don't seem like the types who hand out welfare.
>>320538717
Lanius is the realest nigga in New Vegas
>>320547023
Even Legion citizens are fairly well supplied and protected in their provinces
>>320547023
The other way around. Legion needs supplies from the natives, just like NCR needs their taxes. An army can't walk on an empty stomach and it's likely Legion would be conquering a land full of rebels instead of uneducated tribals who don't know better.
>>320547512
>>320547632
Sure, but why carry dead weight? If the land/locals aren't productive then steer clear of it.
>>320546146
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWa-rWSsoZA
>>320547710
And there's why the conquering of Vegas is much more problematic than conquering savages. Why rule a populace that will almost certainly be at your throats for the entire rule?
>>320541505
Damn, I wish NV could use non-shit engine and does not looks like FO3 re-skin.
Seriously, how could they give a game that can't render full dynamic shadow 9/10?
>>320547710
Because they need bodies and resources. Managing an army is not easy, and its been known for 2500 years, since the art of war, that relying in supplies from back home is a death sentance. Your army needs to feed upon the conquered, not itself. The NCR citizens cannot feed themselves without the NCR, unlike the tribes in the East. There is nothing to sustain the Legion past Hoover Dam.
>>320545195
this right here. one camp and a few sets of dialogue.
>>320548356
I think the locals could be subdued, but is there anything of value in the Mojave other than Hoover Dam for power? It's a fucking desert, I don't think much can be grown - at least not enough to support a large populace if the Legion was to make New Vegas their new capital.
>>320538717
>surrendering the damn
>condeming the Legion to continued backwater, non-technic existence
>thinking it will ever recover
ishy-shishy-diggity-doo.
>>320542762
>and after a real apocalypse there probably wouldn't be a trillion fucking guns around
This is the U.S. I've got a trillion fucking guns in my basement. You think if I die horribly they just vanish? Shit's gonna get looted, end up everywhere like in any other horrible disaster/war scenario from the real world.
Gunpowder can be made from piss, wood, and naturally abundant sulfur and sulfide compounds. Lead casting can be done over a fire with crude molds. Improvised muzzleloaders and homemade pipe guns would be doable by any primitive goon immediately. Being in the west, this would be immediately followed by halite harvesting to make corrosive reloads of regular postwar brass. It doesn't take much from there to begin producing sustainable primers.
>>320550705
>Shit's gonna get looted, end up everywhere like in any other horrible disaster/war scenario from the real world.
And after 200 years it'd be scarce, or at least scarce enough to make melee weapons more common and viable. Production would come back, but not nearly in the pre-war industrial scale.
>>320548078
https://youtu.be/LGvnmutFqFk
3 hours in movie maker, i tried
>>320539434
Once the legion reached the west coast, they'd turn on themselves with infighting, just like the Roman empire inevitably did when they had expanded as much as they realistically could.
>>320548592
There are tons of crop farms in NV, and the NCR redirects water from Lake Mead for Water Merchants. You can certainly turn it into an irrigated crop land, just like Shady Sands did way back in Fallout 1
>>320543848
He could be thinking of Antony.
>>320551029
That's why the Gun Runners exist anon
They have pre-war schematics, factories, and stockpiles
