>"let's all be honest here, no one actually LIKED turn based games, we just had to deal with it because the story was so good!"
IMAGINE BEING ARNOLD
>>319395248
The annoying part is and always was the random encounter shit that slowed you down and actually artificially made the game longer.
>>319395559
The whole "state of nature" thing with the word "artificial" is always baffling---why is sodium benzoate an "artificial preservative" while salt is just one of those ingredients---but I think this may take the cake.
STILL GOT IT
Turn based combat is my favourite kind of combat
>>319395248
>no one actually LIKED turn based games
true. it was awful.
>>319395248
I actually like it a lot better than whatever the fuck Final Fantasy is nowadays and Bamham style combat which is done to deat.
>They never bothered to use modern development techniques/technologies to polish the genre.
>>319395248
IMAGINE
Depends on the game. Some games have to be turn based (or with a form of time control) to work at any level.
Grand strategy, tactics games, card games.
Insisting action is objectively superior makes you sound like a autist trying to present his opinions as fact.
>>319395248
I enjoy turn based combat a hell of a lot, even active turn based is fine by me. Fallen Enchantress as the most recent one I played was a lot of fun. That shit had almost no story or any real lore to it.
>>319395248
It is the best actually. Ever played Golden Sun?
Or Pokemon? Idiot?
>>319395248
>some people unironically think this
At least the French know.
>>319395248
Turnbased is dogshit unless its in strategy or card games.
Most JRPGs have the generic dogshit turnbased gameplay because the chinks cant even come up with bamham combat. Even thats too complex for them.So they make even more simple combat like Souls dodge+attack to winYes, bamham combat is more complex because Souls dodge+attack works for EVERY enemy in Souls, meanwhile in bamham you cant just spam X like you memesters say and win.
You actually need to deal differently with different type of enemies
>>319396457
Forgot pic.
And dofus.
4x games like legend of the endless, endless space too.
>>319395248
Actually it was aspergers kids that didn't like turn based games. It's been proven for around a decade now.
So whenever you see someone saying they don't like turn-based here on /v/, you can actually do a statistic on how many braindamaged kids are lurking the board.
>>319396453
>Golden sun
>Good
That game was super mediocre. the only reason everybody praised it was because it was the only RPG on GBA for quite a time.
>>319396775
The first time I played Golden Sun was on an emulator, so that doesn't explain why I loved it
Actual TURN-based is good, ATB is trash. Random encounters are shit too. Fucking Chrono Trigger in 1995 had on-screen encounters, "system limitations" my ass.
>>319396775
Oh give me a break. I'm not even interested in hearing what games you think are good. Inb4 call of dutie am the greatest.
>>319396538
Banham combat is the vidya equivalent of "put the cylinder in the round hole."
>>319395248
Just finished Dragonfall, shit was tight. Gonna buy Hong Kong when it's on sale. Nice opinion
>that look
YOU JUST KNOW
>>319395248
>we just had to deal with it because that's all there was
I made it more accurate
Turn-based is garbage, ATB is garbage.
Real-time with pause is really the only method that makes sense.
>>319396860
Then you have terrible taste. It has no remarkable mechanics, the combat is as generic as it gets and the story is divided in two games.
>>319396907
>Inb4 call of dutie am the greatest
You are either baiting or pretty fucking retarded.
Thanks anon, I want to watch True Lies now.
>>319397032
Imagine being Arnold in that scene and having to be all like "damn, Jamie Curtis, you fuckin' fine, all sexy with your tight body and horrific androgynous monster face. I would totally have sex with you, both my character and the real me." when all he really wants to do is fuck another 16 year old in his dressing room. Like seriously imagine having to be Arnold and not only sit in that chair while Jamie Lee Curtis flaunts her disgusting body in front of you, the favorable lighting barely concealing her stretchmarks and leathery skin, and just sit there, take after take, hour after hour, while she perfected that dance. Not only having to tolerate her monstrous fucking visage but her haughty attitude as everyone on set tells her she's STILL GOT IT and DAMN, JAMIE LEE CURTIS LOOKS LIKE *THAT*?? because they're not the ones who have to sit there and watch her mannish fucking gremlin face contort into types of grimaces you didn't even know existed before that day. You've been fucking nothing but a healthy diet of blondes and supermodels and later alleged rape victims for your ENTIRE CAREER coming straight out of the boonies in Austria. You've never even seen anything this fucking disgusting before, and now you swear you can taste the sweat that's breaking out on her dimpled stomach as she sucks it in to writhe it suggestively at you, smugly assured that you are enjoying the opportunity to get paid to sit there and revel in her "statuesque (for that is what she calls herself)" beauty, the beauty she worked so hard for with personal trainers in the previous months. And then the director calls for another take, and you know you could kill every single person in this room before the studio security could put you down, but you sit there and endure, because you're fucking Arnold. You're not going to lose your future political career over this. Just bear it. Hide your face and bear it.
>>319396927
And Souls combat is the vidya equilavent of "draw a line to win"
>Make a nearly perfect game
>Change it completely for the remake
God, just fuck you, Squeenix. Fuck you.
>>319396983
You're just mad you don't know how to play good games.
>>319397016
>You are either baiting or pretty fucking retarded.
Baiting about what exactly? Your game preferences? Doesn't make sense.
>>319397127
>VII
>nearly perfect game
It's my favorite of the PS1 FFs, but no, not even close.
>>319397127
Nobody played Final Fantasy 7 for the combat anyway, so who cares?
>>319397016
I liked it for the interesting concepts (Elemental adepts, return of alchemy, lighthouses), the class system and the ambitious storytelling format. The combat wasn't unique but it wasnt bad either, the puzzles weren't hard but were better than what most JRPGs offer.
It's not my favourite JRPG but it has a lot of things going for it.
>>319396864
>Actual TURN-based is good, ATB is trash.
Holy shit I didn't know other people on /v/ thought this. I mean I can get through the ff games with atb but I just wish they were normal turn based. Either give me turn based or real time. Fuck this half assed shit
>tfw I can actually genuinely like turn based games
The last few years have been exhausting. Between meme games like Neptunia and this this whole "turn based combat is bad" fad that's popped up I'm surprised the genre isn't dead
>No one likes Chess the story is just really good
>>319397425
Black Queen dying was so sad, I cri errytime.
If you didn't like turn-based RPG's, how did you play FFVII in the first place?
Turn based games are fine but I wish there was an option to see how your turn based battle played out in real time.
>>319397246
That was a pretty big part actually. That you could control all those powerful summons and magic.
>>319396864
So is Chrono Trigger a near perfect game? Every time I play it, it amazes me
>on screen encounters
>turned based combat that has real time elements
>enemies will move around the battlefield making positioning key with some attacks
>story has multiple endings encouraging replay ability
>every party member is good
>don't have to grind to beat the game because of the combat system
Its remarkable and I haven't played a game since it that's managed to top it
>>319397497
>Not getting the secret ending where the black Queen kills the white king
>>319397127
>FFVII
>Has terrible combat system
>KH
>Has legitimately fantastic combat system
>remake changes combat to be like the latter
>this is somehow bad
I will never understand ATB nostalgia.
>>319397378
>implying turn-based isn't dead already
Between XCOM devs getting shafted by publishers, Sid Meier losing his touch after IV, and Heroes being devoured by Ubisoft and shat out by untalented slavs, there's hardly anything left to call "good" that didn't fall out of Japan's gaping asshole.
Strategy doesn't sell.
The casuals can pretend to be smart by buying into Hearthstone or MTG, but that's the extent of demand within the broader audience. The rest of us get scraps or nothing.
>>319397538
They didn't. They just like to whine about shit that doesn't fit into their category of "holy shit look what i'm doing guys i'm button mashing dude look at the screen damn thats action i'm bad ass i did that all by myself! epic owned faglord!".
>>319397640
It's always a toss up between it, FFVI and Dragon Quest V for my favourite JRPG.
I need to do another play through of Chrono Trigger soon, it really is great.
>>319396009
Natural means unfucked with by humans in a way that uses manmade chemicals.
Salt is more than a preservative. It's actually a spice. Salt is familiar. Sodium benzoate is a chemical created to preserve, and most people couldn't even tell you that much.
>>319397750
Endless Legend
Endless Space
ES2 coming out soon, get hype
>>319397538
Because all the mags made out like it was the deepest game ever and I assumed, since it was made by competent professionals, that it would surely have to have some kind of well thought out strategic element to it, otherwise why would they make it like that and why would reviewers love it so much. Up until I actually bought it, I had no idea that you just stood around and returned to your row, and the idea was too stupid for me to contemplate.
>>319397554
Now that would be neat.
>>319397538
>playing final fantashit
Same way we played repetitive shit and accepted neutered ports. We didn't know any better back then.
>>319397857
>hype
>for anything
Just kill me now.
>use quotation indicator
>use quotation marks inside the quotation indicator
>>319397750
>>implying turn-based isn't dead already
see
>>319396457
>>319396546
Wakfu/dofus is mainstream.
>>319396864
Same with Earthbound, Turn-based with on-screen encounters is GOAT.
>>319397960
Yeah... Me too I guess
Video games taught me that if you have no expectations you can't be disappointed
That's how I feel about the upcoming Star Wars movie
Party-oriented, action-based combat sucks. There, I said it. If it's not the trash AI, it's just "run up to this guy, hit him over and over again. YOU WIN"
How is that any better than turn-based? It's not like it takes strategy to mash buttons, and of course FF7 is going to get the MGS Twin Snakes treatment: Over the top full retard acrobatics from the get-go involving completely lifelike figures. You'll basically be playing Advent Children.
>>319397965
>implying meme arrows are quoting
>>319398141
I am implying that yes.
See how you just quoted what I said?
That's how it works.
>>319398039
Earthbound does not have on-screen encounters.
>>319396271
They did, that's how we got the combat system seen in FF13 and FF15
Chrono trigger did turn base the best way where you could avoid the enemies if you wanted to. 10 also had a neat system where it was strictly turn based and no ATB. I still think I like Breath of Fire's system the most though because everyone would get their commands and then all the characters and enemies would go in order of their speed so it was always consistent or if it did change you could figure out how it was going to change.
It's a shame it took the final fantasy series like 5 games to finally realize that.
The only bad thing about those kinds of RPGS is when a spell like SLOW never works on bosses, which is the only time you'd ever fucking use it.
>Turn-based combat is bad
>Bravely Default is praised for being an excellent RPG with turn-based combat
>BD Second on its way
>Devs still won't make more Turn-based stuff
REEEEEEEEEEEEEE
>>319396775
The battle system itself was great. Too bad it was so unbalanced and easy, that there basically no point in psynergy.
>>319398049
Get hype for disappointment.
Turn based is good, but what I truley wish there was more off is the party-based open world RPGs like Might and Magic from the days of yore.
Sure we get indie small-scale games like these but imagine what a true application of modern tech could do for a type of game like this.
It's over guys gaming is dead.
>>319398123
I completely agree that having an A.I. party in real time sucks.
>"run up to this guy, hit him over and over again. YOU WIN"
This also sucks, but is only true for basic encounters on lower difficulties in something like KH. In a properly set up fight, it ends up playing like something no mainline FF could hope to compare to, as you have to dodge, guard, counter and know how to deal with special attacks.
>>319398283
>the battle system was great except that it was broken and there was no point in using the main feature
??
If we're talking about FF7, the combat really wasn't very good. It was just waiting to press attack every turn and using limit breaks/summons on bosses. Sometimes you used magic to stave off boredom or get a battle done faster, but it was never fun or engaging. The new system looks like it's similar but now involves movement, spacing, and timing, but not to a degree like NG or DMC -- basically, your average ARPG. So it already looks like a better system.
>>319398180
I didn't quote you, I said you were implying. You understand now?
When quoting outside the chon you use quotation marks.
>>implying "let there be light" isn't in the bible
>>319398224
Oh my mistake I thought you meant you can see the enemies on screen and touch them to fight as opposed to just walking around and getting a random encounter. You'll have to excuse me I haven't played Chrono trigger.
>>319395248
FFVIIR fags are stupid.
>>319398316
With you 100%. A really underrated and forgotten subgenre that would flourish with modern technology.
The only people who say this only played grindfests like Final Fantasy. Dragon Quest and SMT are almost literally just Final Fantasy's system but fun.
>>319396983
Your opinion is garbage.
Daily reminder that Final Fantasy was heavily inspired by D&D, and guess what kind of combat you do in D&D?
FF is (used to be) a huge tribute to D&D. Now we don't get to ustomize our character or anything and we're stuck with a mediocre, cheesy, japanese "action RPG" where the RPG elements are non-existent.
Squeenix forgot about their roots.
>>319398123
>>319398354
I would really rather a game like Tales be turn based, AI partners just die and I can't handle managing 4 roles at once in real time.
>>319398421
>Dragon Quest and SMT
Their combat still sucks.
>>319398483
Suck this *grabs dick*
>>319396546
Wakfu is a really great game...
Too bad the NA server is fucking dead.
>>319398316
The ubislavs making the latest HoMM games are trying really hard to re-make 3 with more focus on character stories with every iteration.
It's an endearing effort, but no one really cares about the heroes in Heroes games except for what they offer mechanically.
>>319398369
What I meant is, that dschinns deciding your class and stats was a pretty good idea imo. So were dschinn summons, etc. You just never had to think about it unfortunately, cause you could just spam summons most of the time.
No idea how Camelot managed to make Dark Dawn even more unbalanced.
I miss advance wars.
Whenever I read 'turn based', i miss it a little harder.
>>319397497
Chess is bullshit. Everyone always runs the same teams, and half the time the king just falls over. What a bugged mechanic.
>>319397985
Nobody fucking plays Wakfu or Dofus. Most people only know the show and the waifus.
>>319398607
>wanting a good series to be dumbed down and retooled into a Waifu Simulator
This is pretty much what would happen if they made a new one, look at FE.
>>319398418
Fighting a Dragon in those sort of games vs. fighting a Dragon in Dragon Age or some shit is so different.
It's tense as hell in M&M because no matter how well prepared you are, there's always a chance you'll get wiped out. The focus was on magic use and placement.
With modern games, it's just mash X button till thing dies, then spam things with cooldown.
Games truely are missing scarcity and vulnerability because modern devs are pussies.
>>319398607
It's still a good game, anon. You can still play it.run to her, laddy
>>319396376
Doesn't grand strategy usually have real time where you can slow shit down or pause it?
>>319398683
>Games truely are missing scarcity and vulnerability because modern devs are pussies
No, much rather it is that budgets are bloating up like crazy, so the games are expected to have higher returns than ever, and thus need to appeal to as many people as possible. In generation Y no one likes losing, so to apeal to a broad audience, you have to make games where you won't lose easily, or atleast won't be punished much for losing.
>>319395248
>it was due to technical limitations, there's no reason to do turn based games anymore
I know it's b8, but those people deserve to be brutually murdered.
>>319398726
You're thinking of managerial / tycoon games.
Grand strategy and 4X are almost always turn-based because there are numerous different threats and costs you have consider before performing a move, and you will likely need to perform numerous moves at one time.
Anything "real-time" just boils down to tactics.
Even RTS games are just a nasty click-fest with the strategic elements raped out by previously prepared meta builds and static maps.
>No one actually likes turn based games!
>Meanwhile turnbased games based on oldschool jrpgs are making billions of dollars even as we sit here typing
>Meanwhile FF's action based battle system for XV is seen as a horrible mistake by everyone, XIII is like by fucking NO ONE, Tales has hit it's limit in bullshit they can pull on the customer and not a single solitary person on the planet thinks that any of bethesda or biowares battle systems are anything but shit tier shooter and action games that are getting a free pass because they claim to be rpgs.
>>319398245
The turn based combat in Bravely Default was shit.
So little options since most of the classes and abilities were useless.
How would real time chess look like?
>>319398958
No, I am thinking of Victoria 2 and Europa Universalis IV, those are the ones I have played (and enjoyed!).
>Anything "real-time" just boils down to tactics.
I don't really get the complaint here.
>>319398904
We actually used to have more varied games out there, BUT the console devs basically closed out the budget devs who kept the console market alive and vibrant, and the paid off "journos" and marketers helped push anyone who wasn't paying their fucking bills or a "truly awesome indie title that gives us lots of cred for giving 10 stars or what the fuck ever" bullshit.
There are no smaller games built for medium sized returns. Just bigger games built then partially dolled out for lots of tiny returns.
>>319399080
I thought it was okay. I just gave everyone dual-shields and threw items at every single boss in the game. It was kinda silly solving problems on a universal scale by throwing some random items at it, but I guess that's Final Fantasy for you.
>I like my video games to be as slow and boring as possible
This is literally what you sound like when you try to defend turn-based combat.
>>319399080
Bravely Default was /v/'s baby for a few weeks after it came out. If you're not satisfied with that, you won't satisfied with anything.
>>319399001
>getting a free pass because they claim to be rpgs
Does anyone actually believe this?
BioWare's character choices are "asshole" "generic" and "goody two-shoes", whereas Bethesda designs one character for the player and throws them into a sandbox.
They're okay adventure games for what the level design and content are worth, but they can hardly be called RPGs.
>>319399185
>I want video games to have less variety for no reason whatsoever other than my own taste
This is what you're saying when you deny turn based systems.
>>319399185
>the faster it is, the more fun it is
Why don't you go play an FPS then, you degenerate subhuman?
>>319399185
>I have ADHD
This is literally what you sound like
>>319399249
Well /v/ doesn't have good taste, so that's alright.
Game was fun for the first 40 hours, the game cranked up it'sartificialdifficulty and you would rely on your character doin the SAME moves in the SAME order for the NEXT 60 FUCKING HOURS. No more strategy or anything.
>>319399185
>I'm a ADHD ridden millenium that only plays fps and chinese fighters
To each their own, I guess.
>>319397640
>nobody will ever make a proper, hard NG+ for CT
>>319398654
>Nobody fucking plays Wakfu or Dofus
Don't know about america but it's popular in Europe.
>>319395248
what movie?
I like ATB
I like action games
I must be some kind of fucking paragon of shit taste over here
>>319399304
This is a perfectly valid reasons when other people's taste is terrible and it makes otherwise good games less enjoyable.
>>319399342
>>319399325
>>319399450
>i have a slow brain combined with a slow fat body
>basically im mentally handicapped
This is literally what you sound like
>>319399450
>fps and chinese fighters somehow aren't more strategic and demanding than JRPGs
>>319399430
Well the nice thing was that you could just have the game play itself at that point. Of course you still had to go through the same repetitive bullshit until the characters finally realized who the villain was (like 4 chapters after any halfway normal person got the "bad" end for not buying the bullshit right away).
All in all BD was unfortunately overrated, and the hype just left me feeling a bit disappointed. The stupid censorship of the outfits didn't really help, I'll probably just look into pirating the next one because of that.
>>319396453
>wolfkin
Nope.
>>319399095
Not so much a complaint against a design choice as it is an imperative to complain while witnessing the slow death of this genre.
>real-time chess
That wouldn't be chess anymore, would it?
That's like "turn-taking football".
You'd get something that isn't football.
>>319399649
Liking both of those is irrelevant to liking shitty MMO-wannabe combat which is what "action" JRPGs are.
>a video game is only valid if it challenges my reflexes
Holy shit, children.
>>319399663
My favourite RPG is Dungeon Master, a real time dungeon crawler that rewards quick thinking and reflexes.
I also love turn based games.
>>319395248
It's true though, it's very cheap way to make "gameplay".
I'll take vagrant story type of turn based over the classic bullshit ones, uninvolving to me.
Or just good gameplay.
>>319399723
>You'd get something that isn't football.
You'd get bloodbowl.
FFVII was not terribly complex or interesting. Almost anything would be an improvement, including what we're getting.
>>319399713
I won't even bother with the next one.
Next thing turn base I'll play will the probably Digaea coming to PC.
>>319399731
I also enjoyed FF12 and Xenoblade.
>>319399723
>You'd get something that isn't football.
Isn't american football basically turn-based?
>>319399794
By that logic, real-time chess would be Dynasty Warriors.
>>319399703
Different kind of challenges.
>>319399756
My favourite RPG is Gothic 2.
I also love turn based games like 4x4 strategy and card games.
Because outside of those its just shit.
>>319399745
>video games that don't challenge your reflexes or perception and don't require strategic thought, and which instead play over long animations for the sake of begin pretty without offering any depth, skill or freedom, are somehow worthy of anything but being laughed at
>>319399663
Nice projection!
>>319399935
>implying anyone cares about handegg
It's actually ATB or some staged hybrid.
>>319397985
>dead
>xcom 2 releasing soon
>invested into technological advancements
>big publisher backing
>>319400015
It's funny how only your side of the argument brings up JRPGs at all.
>>319400000
>My favourite RPG is Gothic 2.
Great game
>I also love turn based games like 4x4 strategy and card games.
>Because outside of those its just shit.
No
>>319400094
You quoted the wrong anon.
>>319399946
>different
They are superior in every meaningful way. That kind of counts for something, doesn't it? Everyone who defends JRPG combat always falls back on the same pathetic excuses, and after trying to insult other genres that do things beyond what a Fisher-price playset is capable of.
>>319400163
I just wanted some attention
thank you sir
mind if i save your reply?
Just how bad is this going to be?
Star Ocean 3-tier bad?
Or Legend of Dragoon-tier bad?
>>319400163
Perhaps.
In that case, I'm the anon they meant to quote, and I'm currently contemplating a witty response that I may or may not deliver in due time for relevance.
>>319400262
Yes, here's another (you).
>>319400263
>Or Legend of Dragoon-tier bad?
That really makes no sense, Legend of Dragoon had a pretty nice system overall.
What are some turn-based competitive RPGs? The only one I can think of are Heroes of Might and Magic and Pokemon, Pokemon being more interesting due to the switching mechanic.
>>319400237
I agree. FF7 should've been an FPS.
>>319400131
Of course, that's what this topic is about isn't it? Of course we're not retarded enough to insult turn based games as a whole, but many people who defend the concept applied to vidya tend to be very non-discriminatory, if not actively retarded in mental capacity.
>>319397640
>>319400310
>pokemon
>more interesting than HOMM
Does bravely default had the best class system of any run based RPG?
>>319400360
That would have certainly been an improvement, yes.
>>319397127
Yeah its a remake not a re-release. They're redoing it. You're always gonna have OG FFVII in its many forms so the remake isn't gonna take anything from you.
>>319400298
i find this very, very funny
>>319400413
Bravely Default is the most overrated RPG of recent memory.
>>319397787
I'll be doing my yearly CT replay this Christmas. I always look forward to it.
>>319400237
RPGs are PvE.
FPS and Fighters are PvP.
Can't you see it? Different challenges.
>>319400451
No anon, that's The Witcher 3
>>319400447
You're welcome.
>>319400508
>has never played Heroes PvP
I pity you, anon.
>>319395248
This .gif is perfect because this was my exact reaction when listening to my friend about how turn-based combat is so 'slow' and 'boring because it's not fast enough'.
>>319395559
Yes, but that has nothing to do with turn-based combat.
>>319400408
I mean the combat alone. The switching mechanic makes it important to predict your opponent's next move, based on team composition etc, and making the right decisions can always turn a game around.
Maybe I didn't play HoMaM enough, what is there to playing against other people? To me it always seemed very predictable at the beginning who would win.
>>319400508
>RPGs are PvE
They can also be PvP, like Pokemon.
>FPS and Fighters are PvP.
Or PvE, like the campaign of any FPS with one or the combat in any action game.
Expect that shooters and action games offer far superior PvP to RPG multiplayer, AND superior PvE challenges.
You can't back down.
>>319395248
>X-COM 2012 sold at least 3 million copies on Steam alone
>"N-nobody wants turn based games!"
>>319398447
What customization did FF ever have besides Jobs?
>>319400608
>turn-based combat is so 'slow' and 'boring because it's not fast enough'
A perfectly valid complain considering there's nothing challenging or intellectual about it. Your defence?
Did anyone here ever play Panzer Corps? Sea Lion 1943 is fucking impossible man.
>>319400857
>A perfectly valid complain considering there's nothing challenging or intellectual about it.
I tip my fedora to you, my intellectually enlightened man.
>>319400841
Naming your fucking characters for starters.
>>319399185
>slow is always bad
>fast is always good
>fast is always better than slow
I'm sure you'd make an excellent strategist.
>>319400949
Is that really significant when it was purely cosmetic?
>>319395248
It all depends on how much strategy is involved in the actual RPG combat. If it just amounts to brute force grinding and DPS races to win battles like the early Wizardy, Dragon Quest games then yeah it's pretty awful, but games that force you to consider your decisions in combat and don't let you grind your way to easy mode have some of the most rewarding game design ever created.
Also mixing up elements to keep things interesting like mixing in real time mechanics ala the ATB system and things like turn interruption in the SMT games and command stacking like in Bravely Default really spice up the gameplay and allow for a lot of varied and fun battles.
And, of course all of this wouldn't mean a thing if the core mathematics behind the battle system and stat crunching weren't intelligently designed to reward and stimulate players that enjoy to optimize, min-max, and really sink their teeth into character development and stat progression.
>>319401206
And even if you can grind your way to easy mode, most not shit RPGs are pretty balanced roughly around the level you'll end up at while exploring normally.
>>319400857
You could apply that same statement to anything because it's just a vague subjective statement with no basis or facts in it.
>There's nothing challenging or intellectual about tennis.
>There's nothing challenging or intellectual about math.
>There's nothing challenging or intellectual about computer programming.
I like it, full turn base that is so long as the game isn't shit.
I prefer turn based tactics/simulation to RTS as well
>>319399602
True Lies
It's stupid, yet a lot of fun.
>>319401206
how do the early wizardry games not force you to consider your desions
there's a crazy amount of risk/reward and resource management because at any given time you could get completely fucked by some crazy trap or ridiculous enemy encounter.
>>319401405
This is pretty much why Chrono Trigger never felt like it had down time because all the encounters were designed (as long as you didn't run like a bitch) so you'd be the perfect level by the time you get to the boss.
>>319395248
It's outdated anon. It was a limitation of the console
>>319400718
>asking for a blogpost
In HOMM, there is overworld information that can make the difference between victory and defeat (enemy army composition - can your enemy see what army you have, do they know you have certain artifacts - what artifacts do they have?), as it's more important to choose your battles than it is to just battle in the first place. Even if you're forced into a battle, you can use methods of attrition to wear down their army and force an overworld withdrawal to give you more time and space to prepare for another encounter.
Then, when you're inevitably in a fight, you can use a variety of spells and tactics based on the hero's accrued skills and your understanding of the mechanics.
If you have a statistically very powerful army, but a weak hero, and your opponent has the opposite, it could be a toss up depending entirely upon the skills and knowledge of the players even though the hero doesn't play a prominent role in most fights.
The formation of your army and available spells and spell points make a huge difference - even down to whether your slowest unit is in the first or last slot of your roster, and whether you have 4 or 5 spell points available on your hero (which can be drained by certain units, so again, choosing battles is very important). There are many aspects to combat, but the main focus is on unit range vs melee, speed vs. strength, and using fodder to disable retaliation in PvE - in PvP, there is much more than that because of the hero and spells that really mix things up.
Pokemon is always one-on-one with a focus on unit swapping, which is its own kind of thing, and items are usually forbidden in tournament play (not to mention that the items are usually just restorative or buffs anyway).
There just isn't as much going on there, imo.
Enjoy your fucking wall of text.
>>319397554
fire emblem and front mission nigga
>>319397684
In Turn-based games you're controlling the whole party
In Action ones you're only controlling the main character while the rest of the part is AI
They're different things altogether
>>319401689
The official competitive Pokemon meta is actually 2 vs 2 (with a team of 4 chosen out of a pool of 6 after being shown the opponent's 6 potential mons).
The thing about that is that every choice you make in Pokemon can have immense effects on the game. Do I use the strong attack that would knock the opponent out? Or will he predict that and switch into a pokemon that resists the hit and can then attack back? Should I predict his switch and use the turn to boost my attack? What if he predicts that and boosts his speed while I waste a turn boosting my attack, which is useless after he outspeeds me? What if he carries an unsual move for offensive typing coverage?
Stuff like that. The moment-to-moment decision making based on the information you have just has more of an impact.
I guess HoMaM has more of a focus on strategy, but to me it seems like you just make much more and much smaller decisions that have less of an impact overall, but I am probably to unexperienced to make a statement like that.
I guess the really unique thing about Pokemon is that both players make their choice at the same time, while in other turn-based games they choose after one another. I wonder if that could be implemented in a game like HoMaM.
>>319397684
>>KH
>>Has legitimately fantastic combat system
>>319402375
>every choice you make in Pokemon can have immense effects on the game
>oh gosh, should I use Thundurus or Landorus?
Turn based worked fine for the Persona and Super Robot Taisen games.
>>319399095
>>319398726
that's why I said "time control"
>>319401413
All those things are more "challenging and intellectual" than JRPG combat.
>>319402853
>I have made a statement
>Backing it? What are you crazy?
>>319400756
>neo XCOM
>>319402938
>do I fit in yet
>>319402375
>Do I use the strong attack that would knock the opponent out?
>Or will he predict that and switch into a pokemon that resists the hit and can then attack back?
This exact thing happens in HOMM PvP combat fairly often, but usually with spell usage.
If you have Slow, and you're unsure whether they have Haste, and you're facing an opponent with a very high speed power stack of units (like Wyvern Monarchs or Angels), do you use your spell points to Slow that stack in the hopes that they don't also have Haste to counter it, or do you save your spell points for teleportation in order to set up an ambush that will require sacrifice of one stack of your tier 3 units?
It's also important to think of the overworld in HOMM as just another battlefield, because every hero / army combination has limited movement and their own tactical purposes that you might not know about. You can expect certain builds for certain heroes, like Tazar might always be built to take advantage of his free Armorer skill and high attack value, but you don't know if your opponent has that hero until you see them on the map. Do you build up a hero from first level to specifically counter that kind of hardball, do you farm out Tavern spawns to try and get him yourself (if you don't like facing him), or do you focus on breaking through to high-level map zones as early as possible to capitalize on all the powerful artifacts and army units you can find, and also hope that you find a book of spells that's not too heavily guarded?
Really, the limited amount of movement points for your heroes determines what you can do and whether or not your opponent will get a leg up. Do you go for those extra angels from horde-guarded Griffon conservatories that are somewhat out of the way (delaying your approach to your enemy), or do you march in quickly and hope they didn't find a trading post for an early high-tier town?
The decisions take longer to have consequences, but they are there just the same.
>>319403089
>no stances
>no projectile physics
>shitty cover mechanics
>shitty destruction physics
>free turns for discovered enemies
>shitty inventory
>etc.
>am I casual yet
>>319402790
Ah, okay. Kinda overread that one.
I don't quite think that is the same as turn-based, but your point still stands.
>>319402562
Yeah, current OU is pretty boring, but other tiers are fun.
I was talking more about the system rather than the content, anyway.
>>319400383
Nope Cross Sucks
>>319403586
Alright, I was wrong then.
>>319403983
Well sure I guess, but that wasn't the point.
The point is that HOMM is pretty deep if you play it at a high level, and it's genuinely fun up there.
Pokemon isn't terrible strategy, it just doesn't have as much to explore beyond unit pairings and swapping strategies - but that's probably for the best since those fights are meant to be short and sweet, and Heroes games can go for days.
>>319396148
I really enjoyed FFX because of that.
>>319404450
Yes, and about that point I was wrong. I guess I'll look into top level HoMaM gameplay a bit, seeing as I didn't really apretiate it that much in the past.
>>319403621
>classic x-com
>can take a dozen people and a tank on every mission
>daisy chain mind control to kill everything on the map
>blaster launchers let you kill everything on the map without leaving your shuttle
>never forced to choose what you want in your base, which ability you want, which mission you're going to take.
>not casual
>>319404591
Check YouTube for "Meridian" and his LP's of HOMM3's campaign and for his streamed PvP matches.
Even with the commentary, it's pretty boring if you don't understand what he's doing, which I didn't for a while until I started playing again.
I still can't make a proper hero chain to save my life, but I can appreciate a good one when I see it.
>>319404907
Got it. Thanks!
>>319402403
If you disagree that KH2FM+ is near the pinnacle of action RPG, you are objectively incorrect.
>>319405883
It's not an action RPG when the RPG part doesn't matter.
>>319405964
You equip weapons, use items, learn spells, level up, gain new abilities due to your leveling up, and can change the order in which you gain abilities by picking a different weapon at the start.
Sounds like a fucking RPG to me.
>>319406109
Nothing here changes how you play the game. At the end, every player will use the same skills and combos. It has in fact less options than DMC3, and nobody calls that one an RPG.
>>319406259
You can say the same about Chrono Trigger and FF7.
>>319396453
>Golden Sun
>Not trash
it doesn't hold a candle to actually good jrpg like phantasy star
>>319406417
>Phantasy Star
>good
I can do that, too.But really, I've only played PSO. It's OK.
>>319397127
I don't understand it either.
