Ok you fucking faggots.
Can anyone tell me, what is considered good writing?
At what point can you say "this is good writing", or "this is garbage"?
Do you consider a game where you have to read 50 lines each time you ask an NPC something automatically good?
Could you provide examples?
If I wanted good writing I'd read a book ;^)
>>318163491
That guy is a fag
Fallout 1 has pretty meh writing until after you get the water chip and that's when it becomes elder god tier
>>318163491
It was their first baby rpg, dont insult them so much
OP's pic looks like Il Capo from Art Attack. Not sure if he exists in the British version of Art Attack too.
I'm going to take this way more seriously than I should
"good writing" is as incredibly vague a shorthand as "good gameplay" or "good acting" in a movie or whatever. it means nothing more than "i liked it," and consequently has no more precise meaning, as "i liked it" is too subjective to each person's own tastes. (as always, it's important to mentally append "i think" to any sentences proclaiming something to have "good X.")
that said, there are a few things that e.g. you'd get taught in a words class, which in most cases increase the chances of people considering writing to be "good":
1. plot events emerge from perfectly logical causes, but do so in novel and interesting ways.
for example: the nuke bit in CoD4 emerges from the perfectly logical scenario of your chopper buddies ignoring advice to get away from the live nuke in order to LEAVE NO MAN BEHIND OORAH. the nuke then killing you all makes complete sense, but is nonetheless surprising and effective because of its defying your expectations about your own invulnerability as both the hero and the player.
by contrast, MW2's twist of general moustache being the bad guy comes out of nowhere and has virtually no prior justification beyond that which is laid out after it takes place. it has no more meaning beyond a shallow "ha ha gotcha!" to the player.
>CoD
it is an example most people are probably familiar with.
(cont.)
>>318164864
He did indeed, fittingly called THE HEAD in the British version.
He was fucking terrifying.
>>318163491
Coherent story telling, engaging characters and natural dialogue are key to what is normally called, "good writing". However it is subjective of course.
Shit taste is beyond the realm of subjectivity though.
>>318165283
no one cares lol
>>318165283
>>318165283
2. character dialogue gives each character a unique flavor, and is consistent with who they are.
"bad" dialogue usually means that the character is using words or phrasing that is too advanced, too simple, or otherwise too far removed from what would be expected of the character themselves. by contrast, "good" dialogue, by contrast, gives each character a unique voice, both making things more interesting through inherent variety and, by nature of being unique, building who that character is with each additional line.
an often-cited example on /v/ is Fallout 3's "So you fight the good fight" line. it is marked as an Intelligence check, but the observation is so simple that one would not expect this to be something only an Intelligent character would see. (an equivalent would be the nerd character in a movie making a similar observation, with everybody around him impressed at the perceptiveness.)
an oft-cited counter-example would be the unique low-intelligence dialogue from earlier Fallout games. having the player character's dialogue altered to make sense based on his attributes carries the additional bonus of being an unexpected (and surely expensive) reaction to the player's character build, further endearing it to the player.
>>318165654
>>318165283
This is pretty spot-on. Keep going.
Good writing doesn't exclusively refer to dialogue or written text.
Thief Gold has the best writing ever in a video game, and dialogue is minimal at best.
>>318164792
>>318164794
I took this image because it's the only one on my desktop, for some reason. I wasn't implying F1's writing is bad, it isn't.
>>318165427
Not baiting here, honest question. Morrowind is considered to have good writing. Which it does, but let's be honest, characters aren't that engaging, and story telling isn't that coherent. Sure it was amazing for the time and still holds up, but take Skyrim on the other side. Story telling ain't that much worse, and characters are more polished, and there's 10 times more of them, as well as 10 times more content.
Sure, when you take each piece individually, Skyrim can't compete that much with Morrowind, but overhaul, considering the size of Skyrim, isn't it logical to say that the writing is more than decent, and certainly not bad?
I'm just trying to understand /v/ point of view.
>>318165654
>>318165283
Really interesting, keep on.
HATE WRITING
>>318163491
If you think the concept of "good writing" can be broken down into objective qualifiers, then you're beyond help.
>>318168849
If you think that there are zero objective aspects that contribute to the quality of a piece of writing, you might need to re-evaluate things a bit.
See the posts being made above. Some are pretty inarguably objective, and definitely contribute to the quality of a piece.
Of course, there's subjective aspects to it, much like any kind of art or expression, but there are some parts which are pretty concrete, too.
on /v/ good writing essentially means an RPG in which the bad guy paraphrases some hack philosopher they read about in high school.
>>318169283
This
See: Deus Ex.
>streamlining is good
People like you are the reason that in the early twentieth century Ulysses was considered the epitome of literature and nowadays it's fucking John Green.
Fallout 4 is the John Green of Video Games. There I said it.
>>318169681
>John Green
Who even reads him, let alone think he's that great?
>>318166016
I think that when people praise Morrowind's writing, they're really praising its world building. The characters and dialogues are really rather secondary because they're not at the front and center of the experience, the world is. Most of your time in Morrowind is spent learning about the native culture and politics as well as exploring caves and fighting skeletons - you don't really get involved in anyone's personal story beyond the Nerevar and Dagoth Ur. (And I'd say the latter is a pretty well-written and engaging character.)
In that sense, I'd argue that Morrowind has great writing considering its format - an open world Bethesda RPG. It works to complement and encourage the player's wanderings and exploration by providing an interesting background and a sense of mystery. If it was something like a book or a film, it would be shit, but I think this is a cut-and-dry case of Bethesda doing a good job for once.
>>318163491
Good writing tends to 3 aspects in video games:
1. Characters speaking believably.
2. The setting having a background beyond "shit exists so the player can interact with it"
3. Dialogue trees where the choices matter and don't involve a final Yes/No response.
But a lot of that bleeds in to shit like scenario design and the like.
>>318163491
Just ignore the plebs.
>>318163491
Who also fucked his daughter?
>>318170304
I'd say Fallout 3's original ending more than demonstrates that Bethesda are a bunch of fucking hacks.
>>318163491
Good writing can not be defined.
>>318163491
>what is considered good writing
Books and nothing from video games. Also, this is the wrong thread to have on /v/. Most people here are retards who can't tell the difference between good writing and a good story.
>>318170739
She's not that kind of girl, mister.
>>318170304
you're still posting that low effort crap?
especially with that retard that linked to his own fucking post and acted like it was someone else's
The quality of the writing is inversely proportional to how heteronormative it is.
>>318170003
Every high schooler everywhere.
>>318163491
not an expert on how to define good writing but when a villains motivation boils down to I want to stop suffering by killing everyone its safe to say that the writing is trash
>>318172210
>not an expert on how to define good writing
clearly
>>318172210
Seymour is not even the main villain of FFX you fucking mongoloid.
>>318172210
Being dead really didn't seem to have much of a hindrance on anyone though.
>>318172586
never said he was retard I just called him a villain not the main villain
>>318172516
because I don't like 10?
>>318172673
>if the motivations of a minor villain are dumb, then the writing for the game is bad
This is how retarded you are, and this is without pointing out to you that when people died in FFX they didn't go away.
>>318163491
Writing is good when it reflects the dynamics of the medium of which it is part of, keep in mind this doesn't refer to dialogue only, but world building and characterization as well.
Easy example
http://www.dorkly.com/post/67969/the-30-best-dialogue-moments-from-fallout-3-new-vegas#item-26
This is the most normie site ever with the shittiest opinions possible, yet, why don't you try to count how many New Vegas slides there are compared to Fallout 3, people lie to themselves all the time but New Vegas is more memorable because it's well built and it's a world, not a playground.
>>318172210
But in FFX it sort of made sense because there were a bunch of undead people running around.
>>318164864
Are you stupid, art attack IS british, the italian one is the "version", a shitty mock off with that faggot muciaccia pretending to be Neil when in fact he can't do jack shit, The Head is simply VA'd.
>>318172962
he was a fairly important character in 10 and wanting to destroy the world with that kind of motivation means that its at the bottom with star ocean 4 and mass effect 3
Litterature tier : planescape torment.
The rest is trash.
>>318173218
it's actually better than literature because you can interact with it
>>318173202
Again, unlike SO 4 and ME 3, when people died in FFX they came back as super carefree ghosts. That's what Seymour wanted.
Either you have the comprehension of a 6 year old, or you didn't pay attention to the story.
>>318172830
No because you clearly failed to understand the real motivation behind that goal, or the plot of FFX in general. You can dislike the game, and even still say the writing was bad, but you 'clearly' aren't an expert when you either failed to understand its story, or at least failed to demonstrate that you did with your oversimplification of Seymour's goal.
>>318173417
he still isn't a believable character
>>318173560
This isn't a discussion about whether or not he's believable. Now you're trying to move goalposts.
>>318173738
an unbelievable character is a sign of bad writing
>>318173367
and that's why everyone think gamers are retard.
>>318174071
Nope. Some of the most celebrated literally works in history have wholly unbelievable characters.
It was a cute try, though.
>>318163491
Thanks for revealing you autism.
You are probably a shill, jewish, or both.
>>318163491
Kingdom Hearts, obviously.
>>318174294
like what
>>318174618
Any Classical epic
>>318172210
His motivations made sense to me. If no one were alive they technically wouldn't suffer, at least from living in a world with Sin. And no one knew of a way to defeat sin, so Seymour saw suffering and death as an inescapable part of, and the very purpose of, life in Spira.
>>318174819
okay, which ones?
>>318174937
Beowulf for one
>>318174071
>Muh realism
>everything must be true to life to be goo
You have the mind and soul of an office working wageslave
>>318174071
>realism
Realism is the reason that the GTA series is dead.
>>318169681
>and nowadays it's fucking John Green.
I thought it's George Martin.
>>318163491
content != good content
you can write shitloads and have it be garbage, twilight is three books
In vidya, if every NPC has 50 lines, then NPCs probably kill pacing in the game unless those 50 lines are incredibly interesting, which if you're talking every tom dick and harry in the game, it won't be the case.
Keep in mind by the way that what most people will call good writing is either
>very funny
>very thought-provoking (see: feels)
or
>contains deeper meaning
take that as you will
>>318175334
Believable=/=Realism you mong. A believable character is someone who behaves like something that makes sense, someone who is consistent. Doesn't matter if they're a pizzaboy on the moon using nuclear farts to travel around, just keep that shit consistent or gtfo of writing.
>>318176304
I don't see how Seymour is acting unbelievable though.
Nothing in the game really outright states that being dead sucks. Hell, you meet many people in the that you assume are alive until you find out otherwise, and they don't seem to be bothered in any way.
Compared to living your life in fear over getting fucked by a giant death whale, dying on your terms and living as a carefree ghost isn't that out there of a stance to take.
>>318166016
>Story telling ain't that much worse, and characters are more polished, and there's 10 times more of them, as well as 10 times more content.
That's what makes it worse, though. The good parts about TES writing has always been the background lore you find in the in-game books. The actual characters you meet are forgettable at best. Skyrim is considerably worse because it emphasizes its weaknesses.
>>318177662
>the best part about tes writing is the more
You're confusing writing with story again. TES lore is great but the writing is almost always generic as fuck. Does no one on /v/ understand what prose is?
>>318177842
The lore is writing, you fat fuck imbecile.
>durrr the lore isn't actually part of the writing because I say so
choke on a boner you literal retard.
>>318178056
Lore is story you illiterate child. Writing is prose.
People defending Mass Effect 3 dialogue were a majority of the responses are 3 "yes" answers and one "I don't know, but yes" answer for almost every conversation just blows my fucking mind.
Fuck any other type of checks, who needs those anyways, building characters is for fucking nerds.
>>318178175
That distinction made no reputable person ever.
Good dialogue tends to lead towards the idea of good writing. If a character is written well then it can be remembered for years.
Video games didn't have the technology they have now, so they worked around it by telling instead of showing character actions and motivations. Lots of theater writers also worked on video games. Because of all the new technology there's more desire to have big action sequences than heavy dialogue.
It's also much less desired, as can be seen in all media. Wording is much more simplistic and takes less from old english.
>>318166016
Dagoth ur and Vivec were pretty good characters. Damn, I gotta replay those games. I do agree, though. A lot of the characters were shit.
>>318169681
Why are you complimenting Fallout 4?
>>318166016
>characters aren't that engaging
Fair enough, even people who really enjoy Morrowind can admit there is an unfortunate amount of canned dialogue for generic NPCs. It makes trying to find that one person with unique dialogue on a topic you want pretty tedious
>story telling isn't that coherent
not sure what you mean
>but take Skyrim on the other side. Story telling ain't that much worse, and characters are more polished, and there's 10 times more of them, as well as 10 times more content.
are you fucking kidding me
On /v/ -
>Overly verbose, asnine rhetoric writing (aka mental masturbation for teens and other proles) = good
(eg- Fallout 1,2, NV, PS:T)
>Normal, non abstruse dialogue = bad
Noone on /v/ can discern 'good' dialogue from bad, its all about how meme-y or how vain the dialogue gets.
>>318173417
Actually most people became monsters when they died, only a select few were able to do the whole "Dead but I don't give a fuck" thing.
