EsaM's new tier list.
>DhD that low
>Pikachu 2nd best
Anyone else have complaints?
>>317621120
>This whole bottom tier list beside Zelda
What the fuck?
>implying any character below Shreik matters
>>317621120
at least post a good resolution
>>317621120
>TR4SH
>Tier lists
fuck, i havent lost in a ylyl in quite some time.
Thanks op.
>DHD is worst
The fuck is this? DHD isn't super good but is much better than trash like Mewtwo, Zelda, and Ganondorf.
>top 4 characters in the game are blondes
why is this allowed
>>317621120
>Anyone else have complaints?
This isn't a tier list for Super Smash Bros. Melee for the Nintendo Gamecube
>who can grab to aerial the best
>>317623042
>not being blond master race
filthy
>>317623067
All Melee tier list have Fox first, then Falco/Marth, followed by Sheik/Peach to Puff/Icies, lower tiers don't matter; at least here there is more difference in placing excluding Sheik.
>>317623147
you jest but that's actually pretty fucking accurate
shields are too good in sm4sh and grabs are the natural predators of shields so getting an assload of damage off of a grab is muy bueno
sheik can do it across most of the cast at most % which is fucking annoying
>>317623327
? i wasn't joking at all
>>317621120
>pikachu that high
I just dont get it, pikachu can't kill for shit and the only tournament results I've seen from pika is only with ESAM. Pikachu's definitely top 10, but I wouldn't say he's top 3
>>317621120
>tfw samus is so low she isn't even on the list
;_; why does he have to make my favorite character the worst.
>>317621120
Man when did Jiggly drop that low?
>>317623676
Probably cause youre a retard
>>317623816
When people realized you don't have to approach her, she's shit m8.
>>317623676
Samus is in mid.
>>317623816
what are you talking about? Jiggs has always been near the bottom
>>317621120
>Marth better than Roy
I can understand Ike being higher than Roy but Marth? Am I missing something?
>>317623816
Brawl
>>317621120
I would make some changes personally:
>Tink & Yoshi a bit lower
>Diddy & Link a bit higher
Other than that it's mostly ok, it's a hell of a lot better than Vinnie's list that's for sure.
>317624146
Roy isn't all that great, Marth is a lot safer than him, his recovery isn't garbage & he isn't combo food like Roy is.
> Mario that high
> Sonic that low
> Pikachu is 2nd best
> Ness that high
> Diddy and Luigi that low (kek'd at that actually)
Murf is not better than WFT
>Lucas that low
>Marth being nearly 2 tiers away from Lucina
>DHD is bottom
>toonlink that high
>robin that high
>luigi falling that far down
What the fuck ESAM? This is the weirdest tier list I've ever seen
>>317624609
>Marth being nearly 2 tiers away from Lucina
Lucina has almost no advn
>DHD is bottom
He kinda sucks, he seems good until you realize they're at 150% and not even close to dying, his only half decent kill move is U-air & even then it's not that amazing, also his recovery is horrible.
>luigi falling that far down
His D-throw got nerfed, he has no guaranteed kill setups out of it anymore.
>Meta Knight and R.O.B.
I can accept this. Shame about Olimar, however.
>>317624609
I agree with Marth being far away from Lucina, tipper kills at 50% is Marth's only redeemable point, but Lucina kinda struggles with killing.
>>317621120
I thought kirby is good
>>317624609
Luigi is fucking shit now.
He has no guaranteed kill setups amymore, his forward smash has shit range, and he has trouble approaching.
>Mii's not even ranked
why is everyone too shit to try mii's out.
>>317624443
>Diddy and Luigi that low (kek'd at that actually)
Last couple of patches nerfed them pretty significantly, they're still pretty good but they no longer get kills for free
>>317622714
tierfags, everyone
>Caring about Baldy McThirdplace's opinions
>>317625193
because mii's not only suck but their custom shit throws off the ranking
How is Ness that high up? I know he has that shitty dthrow to fair x3 shit, but that only works for so long. What else is there?
>>317625524
The back throw that kills at 90%?
Nair that has like 0 startup frames?
>>317625524
A Back Throw that kills fairly early
>>317625524
He has a reliable kill move in a game where most characters struggle to kill. Smash 4 is full of mediocre and shit characters, so a few good things go a long way
ESAM overrated Yoshi since he rarely ever uses him, but other than that the list is fairly accurate.
Duck Hunt is trash my nigga
will ganondorf ever be good?
also crazy how far bowser has fallen. when the game first game out people were saying he was like brawl metaknight level top tier.
>>317626467
Yeah, I remember that too but once people figured out how strong the projectile game is, he was done for.
>will ganondorf ever be good?
Nope
>>317626467
Never. Slow characters will never succeed as well as fast characters by design. There aren't enough tools for him to utilize
>>317626467
>will ganondorf ever be good
No, heavy characters will always be either "shit" or "OP as fuck" because the only way you can make a heavy character good is by either making them fast, or giving them shitloads of super armor. Both of these things catapult a character right from "bad" to "broken" and since nobody wants to deal with a speedy ganon with super armor he will remain shit.
Why does everyone hate Zelda? She's my main.
>>317626737
>>317626767
>snake
>>317626908
because she's bad and you're probably bad too
>>317621120
Can we get this in a higher resolution?
>>317625193
Miis are wildcards in the sense that even with standard sets picked out by the community, they are waaaay too broad to fully get a proper feel of any matchup
>>317626910
>a character in Brawl that is not MK or ICs
he's shit m8
>>317627079
Every Brawl Top tier is broken in some way, hell even some of the mid tiers are fucking retarded there like Sheik.
>>317626910
>snake
>not broken
>he got nerfed so badly he's not in smash anymore
>>317627079
People really overstate brawl's imbalance. All of the top tiers, except marth, go damn near even with mk. Falco is the only top tier that gets majorly fucked up by the ICs. At top level, brawl is par for the course in terms of balance for smash
>>317622714
THIS
Smash 4 is terriblefor competitive play
>Samus
>Mid tier
Did I miss something?
>>317627521
>At top level, brawl is par for the course in terms of balance for smash
Why do people play this series competitively again?
>>317627695
that pic makes me sad that M2K dropped off Smash 4 so hard when Diddy got nerfed meanwhile zero adapted and got even better.
M2K just can't play a game where he's not able to get e-z gimps, diddy carried him because of his broken as fuck up air
>>317627880
M2K also broke his hands
>>317624401
>Robin at bottom tier
You have no fucking clue what you're doing
>>317627579
I think it can work if they just give more utility to lower tier characters
>>317627880
M2K is also one of the few Smash players that won't try Street Fighter V when it releases.
>>317627971
It ain't my list, it's vinnie's.
>>317626467
I wish Ganondorf had his Melee Up-b height. Maybe he could then stand a chance. Then again that might make him OP
>>317628121
what a chump
>>317628183
The uppercut helps though, also Melee up-B didn't go that high anyway.
>>317627695
dumb videos of hitbox properties not being 'proof' of a character being shit
Samus has plenty of good moves, her shittiest aspect is her mobility
>>317624609
>luigi falling that far down
>far down
>in the same tier as Auradog and Diddy
>>317626910
>>317627416
>Look at footage of Brawl Snake at Smashcon and Brawlhalla
>Grenade spam everywhere
And you guys want him back? I mean, I have absolutely no room to talk because I play Lucas, but really?
>>317627695
Esam is the one guy who doesn't think Samus is bottom tier.
>>317627880
Did he really drop sm4sh? I thought afterward he moved on to DK.
>>317628739
>I have absolutely no room to talk because I play Lucas, but really?
I play Lucas as well, educate me on why we have no room to talk.
PK Fire is a shitty projectile that can be shielded on reaction and can't be used for zoning play forever, it's a pressuring tool more than anything and is only made marginally better by the existence of zair as an alternate option (not having that made for a fucking shitty neutral game back in Brawl)
Snake's nades have far more utility than that
>>317624851
DHD does have the best damage racking though. If he had a kill option at 110, he would be diddy tier
>>317621120
>not Zelda
>Pikachu
>Not Samus
>Not Peach
>Mario
Why are only two of the top 5 here actual iconic characters and not shitty knock offs?
>>317621120
>all that autism in the top five
Seriously, I'm surprised Nintendo didn't try to lure in the autists with a game about Zero Suit Samus, Shiek, and Rosalina. They go nuts over blonde haired, blue clothed, white skinned human girls.
>>317627951
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHgJHgo2RWU
>>317629702
simple
not samus and not zelda have designs that work for a game like smash while the actual samus and zelda don't
for reference, here's Abadango's tier list
Ike's absence is felt, though
can anyone tell me why this guy thinks G&W is so high up?
>>317630460
As a DH main, I feel that the Japanese understand DH more than us Gaijin.
>>317630460
Japan has a stricter stage list, so that could be why G&W is able to thrive.
>>317630460
Japan has some good G&W players like Songun & another one that i forgot his name.
>>317621120
>EsaM
Who?
>>317630460
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-competitive-impressions-tourneys-tiers-theories-tactics.422864/page-12#post-20431517
here's Aba's reasons for most of the character placements
>>317621120
Summarizing his Bottom 11:
>Bowser Jr: Bad projectiles, noexsistent pressure, eaily gimpable, bad range on certain moves
>Palutena(without customs): Killing issues, bad tilts, default mediocre specials (Reflect is surprisingly OK in his opinion
>Duck Hunt: zoning game is easily shielded, trouble landing kill moves despite good chip damage
>Shulk: Bad frame data, slow moves, easy to time out arts
>Little Mac: Despite his good movement and frame data, his recovery and bad design rapes him
>Dedede: all around bad, gordos shoot him in the foot, has to work way too hard for a kill
>Lucina: Marth -, no tipper or combos,
>Mewtwo: Has nothing useful, dies stupid early and gets combo'd easily because of his attributes
>Jigglypuff: bad range, even among melee fighters, which is hell for a light character (she's apparantly good in doubles and is really fun in his opinion), rest punishes are also hell because 2 stock game
>Dr. Mario: general downgrade from Mario, no combos despite strong moves, poor recovery
>Zelda: "Up b or bust," bad neutral, suffers under pressure, no landing options, Up B the character in his opinion, awful matchups
>>317624443
Luigi has been getting nerfed every patch.
>>317621120
I feel like Sheik is in a tier all of her own. None of the others feel like they're quite at her level.
Shulk is a tier too low, Ike and Metaknight are a tier too high.
I don't really disagree with the list otherwise.
Rate my tier list.
>>317631626
Why is marth on your list?
>>317631563
>Ike
>Not High Tier as fuck
Sol please.
>>317629520
True, but it's kinda annoying to see Snake do nothing but throw grenades everywhere for over half a match
C4 tricks are pretty cool though
>>317623816
Jiggs is a fucking joke. The only people who have trouble with her are those who have no idea how to fight her. If you approach her, you're doing it wrong. Jiggs can't camp. She HAS to approach. Let her approach you, and simple counter whatever she does. Throw out an aerial? Pull back and hit her with your own. Grounded attack? Perfect shield into grab. Goes for grab? Short hop aerial. Jiggs is honestly the worst in the game.
Also, skill ceiling tier list.
>>317631626
Where is Zero Suit you fuck?
>>317632079
What puts Ike on par with characters like Ness, Falcon, Peach, and Sonic?
I am glad people are realizing Peach is good now.
>>317632317
>Shiek
>execution heavy
Nah, she's just fair to bouncing fish and sometimes wavebounced needles
>>317632516
But we knew that for a while.
She's been B+ if not A for most of the tier lists for the past few months
>>317632358
In B tier.
>Preferring ZSS over Armored Samus
>>317632505
>Shulk's reach but with amazing framedata
>Deals truckloads of damage
>Actually has a good number of combos
>Boatloads of mix ups
>Has more KO options than non-KO options
>KO's at "mid range" percents.
>Amazing at footsies
Look up MVG Ryo or other Ike mains, they get work done.
Ike's probably better than Ness and Sonic and on the same level as Peach/Falcon.
>still thinking Sonic isn't B Tier or that Ness takes skill.
>>317632971
You clearly don't know much about advanced sheik play then, buddy. She requires the fastest fingers in the game and the fastest reaction times, and has so many options at any given time that figuring out the optimal one within a few frames of game time is absolutely insane. Buffering instant tilts out of a needle fidget cancel requires several near-frame perfect inputs in a row. I'm not even going to begin to go into how wrong you are.
>>317632971
>it's top tier so it's brain dead
>>317633189
I think the first thing people noted about Smash 4 Ness is that he is both good and very easy to play well.
I'm not sure if anyone -at any point- thought Ness takes skill.
>>317633189
Ryuga and San are also two more amazing Ikes. Zero even said Ryuga was in his top 10 hardest games.
>>317633226
>>317633493
>Shiek players
I main her, she's not hard at all guys. Especially compared to everyone you're going against.
They jump in? ftilt
You trade hits? ftilt
You're far? Charge muh needles
ftilt lands? combo
You wanna take the offensive? Nonpunishable shield pressure with airs and tilts
They're shielding? Le down throw up air
Stop overcomplicating things, the game has a huge buffer on inputs anyways, Cpt. Falcon players have it harder
>>317633826
Theres also one called Rango who recently got 9th place in some yuro tourney beating Fatality and 6WX. He's also going to Genesis 3 so more Ike representation will be there.
>>317633692
I don't own Smash 4 but I would like to play Ness. However based on my history with the series I've struggled playing him.
What are some good tricks to remember?
>Marth above Roy
>Diddy that low
Is this accurate?
>>317634309
>Bernie not top tier
>>317634210
Backthrow
>>317634309
Wheres Hill'dog?
>>317634269
Roy is currently low tier because he hasn't seen results.
He definitely has the ability to be top tier, his power and frame data is amazing, but nobody has actually done anything significant with it yet.
>>317632317
>>317630460
>>317624401
>>317621120
>Game & Watch always remaining in the middle of the tier lists.
Come on guys.
>>317624401
Mega Man in C and Lucas in E.
Yeah, okay buddy.
>>317634536
Who the fuck gets results with marth
>>317634451
You can replace her with Bernie or Jeb the Kek.
>>317634450
>This kek.
>>317634210
Just don't brainlessly spam PK fire, that has always been a dumb thing to do and continues to be so. Go for grabs or nairs/uairs. At low-to mid percents dthrow links into aerials, at high percent bthrow is your go-to kill move.
Don't be an idiot when recovering. PK thunder is also a good projectile attack now since it doesn't take a million years for Ness to start moving again.
>>317630073
kek
>>317634738
Don't fool yourself anon, it'll only hurt more when Trump loses like the joke he is
>Zelda
>worst character, 3 games running
>>317621120
>Wario below Falcon
>>317634112
You clearly need to learn more then. I don't have time atm to teach you how to play high-level but just take it from someone who has over a thousand hours of Smash 4 Sheik experience.
>They're shielding? Le down throw up air
Are you fucking kidding me? This isn't day 1 release, this is nowhere near optimal.
>ftilt lands? combo
Sure, into perfect pivot ftilt > perfect pivot utilt > perfect pivot ftilt > nair > rising storm > bouncing fish. Oh wait, I assume you just meant a fair or 2?
>They jump in? ftilt
What? Pivot jab or Pivot grab would be far more optimal.
>You trade hits? ftilt
Ftilt is not safe on Shield, and basically every character's jab beats it. If you ftilt out of a trade, you're retarded.
Old pic, by the way.
>>317635151
No way in hell she's worse than Brawl Ganon, that character's a mess.
Also i think Jiggs is worse than her in smash 4.
>>317623327
>shields are too good
>more shield stun than Melee
I want this meme to end
>>317635760
It's not really the shields themselves, yes. The problem I think is that the frame data for all the characters is generally slower than that of Melee, making harder to apply pressure.
>>317635397
what the fuck is wrong with you
>>317635397
>Pivots are hard with fast characters
You just ruined your own argument senpai
>>317635932
>I have no argument
>>317635760
I honestly believe that the shield stun changes made little mac at least high tier
>>317635397
>maining SHIEK of all characters
nofun
>all the top 7 characters are girlsI swear to god if some mong doesn't get the joke
>>317636001
Pivots are the least of Sheik's concerns, those are fundamentals that any character should know. Knowing how to extend combos with perfect pivots takes a bit of practice though, and it's not cookie cutter, it is entirely dynamic.
>>317636146
Sheik is the most fluid and responsive character in the game, with the most options and the most combos, also the most AT. That is fun to me, but it is certainly not for everyone. Ryu would be great if he weren't so slow.
>play Smash for years with friends across all games
>get Smash 4
>go online in For Glory
>ROLL ROLL SHIELD ROLL SHIELD GRAB SHIELD DODGE SHIELD SHIELD ROLL
What the fuck. I feel like Neo being awakened to the Matrix. Is this how Smash is played?
>>317636307
No, it's how shitters online play.
>>317636307
It's how Sm4sh is played.
Do that shit in 64 and you gets your ass kicked due to the stupidly high shieldstun.
>>317636307
If someone is rolling all the time, just run through their roll and catch them with a grab after their invincibility frames wear off.
If they are shielding all the time, you should win easily as they have limited the number of options they have by nearly half. If they are spot dodging on instinct, wait it out and then punish.
>Diddy and Luigi THAT LOW
I legit laughed what the literal fuck?
>Muh Patches
Diddy hardly dropped at all after his nerf.
Luigi lost a promised kill setup but thats it. He honestly got more to work with now
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiD47IdNGLY
>>317621120
>Link once again bowing before the superior Toon
I am more than okay with this
Holy shit at Ike being that high. I'm no competitive player, but I noticed little difference in the new version, even regarding shields. I guess I really need to get back into the game now.
>>317636983
Ike is fucking crazy.
Best disjoints in the game, hits like a truck, actually has good frame data for a heavy, and has high weight.
>>317636983
Ike has recieved the largest buffs in the entire game. His fair is safe on shield, basically has no lag and HUGE range. His gay dash across stage shit can't be punished, he acts right out of it. His enormous hitboxes on his smash attacks can't be punished OoS anymore at range thanks to increased shieldstun. He kills well before "kill %". His dash attack is a KILL OPTION.
>>317630681
The Japanese have Yusan and Brood, we have MVD who's DHD is awful, and a couple Xanadu regulars.
>>317621120
Finally, it took my main Ike some time but he's now high up there. Been playing with him and DDD since the beginning but it looks like it's finally paid off.
>>317621120
Well, at least muh Mewtwo is moving up. I guess that's good. Not great, but I guess I'll take it.
>>317637943
You talk like it's somehow your deeds alone that made Ike good. Then again, every Ike main seems to feel that way for some reason.
>>317638163
It's the weird psychology of people who play low tiers.
>if I win, I'm amazing because I'm playing a low tier
>if I lose, it's because you're playing a high tier
>>317638109
>Mewtwo is moving up
I wish, everything in the game shits on Mewtwo.
Anyone how just pick up Smash 4 and pick Falcon or Shiek can two stock Mewtwo with no problem.
Mewtwo mains have to work twice as hard just to be decent
>>317638446
Or it could be because we find those characters fun.
BEST tier list
>>317638581
It ain't easy, but it is fun. I've always played him since Melee. Yeah he was shit back then too, but I always played him, and I'm not that bad with him now desu. He can pull off some pretty good combos, but the gets the same treatment too, unfortunately. Too bad he can't really deal with it too well.
Would Mewtwo be a great deal better if he was a heavyweight (or at least much more difficult to launch)?
I don't think "floaty heavyweight" is very common in Smash either.
>>317638581
>>317638887
Play P:M for a fun Mewtwo
>>317638691
That's not the point though, I was talking about how people who play these underrated characters feel like it's their victory that their character achieved the much coveted title of "not shit" when actually, they didn't do jack shit.
If you're good with the character, you're still going to be good with him regardless of whatever tier he's in. It just feels like they think the character is somehow better because of a placement on a list. Not even with some patch or shit.
But I'm just making a point, not shitting on them or anything.
>not playing the doc
Explain yourselves.
>>317639059
No. He has nothing going for him. Only a literal autist could be hit by that laggy ass projectile. His recovery is horrible. His moves are laggy. Little to no true combos. He's slow. He's predictable. Everything about him is bad. His weight is just one of many things.
>>317639059
I'd say his hitbox, his light weightedness, and his forward smash (it misses if the opponent is in mewtwo's arms when he uses this smash) should all be fixed. That's it, if they can fix that, he'd be a force to be reckoned with.
>>317639123
True that.
>>317639173
I find the plumber to be more fun.
>>317639173
too busy with the objectively superior mustache fuck
>>317635760
Eh, all the buffs in the world won't make sm4sh a decent game to play competitively.
I mean, even if melee died tomorrow, you'd be hard pressed to claim that sm4sh would be able to maintain that level of depth of longevity for so long.
>>317625193
Shitty characters coupled with too many variables to place.
>>317626467
Yeahin Project M
>>317639173
This isn't melee
>>317639173
I fucking love Doc, I have so many combo videos I want to compile and upload to show off how great he his
Anyone who rates him as a shit character is retarded. Yeah he has a horrible recovery but he combos to kill so fast
>>317638887
>It ain't easy, but it is fun
That is true, Mewtwo can be scary, when playing the right mind game.
But it hard to think fast, when everything else has 2.seconds frame attacks, and Mewtwo hasn't has the chance to even to run away.
For a Pokemon who is known to be strong, crazy fast, and heavier then Charizard. They did a good job of making Mewtwo into a joke character
>>317639123
>PM
get that shit out of here
>>317640540
Doc is now rated as mid-tier thanks to Nairo.
>main Bowser in Melee and Brawl because I love his playstyle
>Smash 4 comes out, everyone starts playing him, be accused of being a tierfag
>just want to be a big heavy ebin dragon turtle
>now apparently he's low tier
>rarely anybody plays him
>can now main in peace
>>317640139
Smash literally has a larger competitive scene than Melee based on number of entrants to tournaments. Nice try though, meleefag.
You can thank Smash 4 for making Melee popular again though, Melee was nearly dead a few years ago, even after several attempts to revive it. The documentary was only part of it.
>>317640613
>Sakurai refuses to make Mewtwo a decent character even after over a decade away from Smash
>Fan project understands Mewtwo's flaws and manages to buff him amazingly well without changing the feel of how he plays
>get that shit out of here
I wonder what it's like trying to main Zelda without having ever played P:M
>>317640810
Smash 4*
>>317640701
I mained Sonic in Brawl and he's just SO fucking boring this time around.
I want his Side B to be his light speed dash from Battle
>>317640810
Having a dozen or so more entries doesn't mean your scene is larger anon.
Besides, the only thing that streamers care about is viewers, which melee consistently shits all over sm4sh at every tournament that features both of them.
Even EVO realized this when they gave sm4sh the morning slot while putting melee on the main stage.
>>317640890
Project autisM is gay tho
>>317641043
>Streamers
Annnnd your invalidated judging based off stream monster is literally the worst thing you can do
>>317641043
>streams
>viewers
How you know someone has only played competitive Smash after the recent surge in popularity.
>>317641145
For actually caring about the gameplay in Smash
The only thing Sakurai has they don't is money.
>tfw mewtwo will never be good
>>317640890
>I wonder what it's like trying to main ANYONE without having ever played P:M
Everyone gets it, every character is stronger,but not really better.
Just make their bad moves strong is all.
>>317641513
>every character is stronger,but not really better.
What?
>>317641472
Nobody thought Mewtwo would be good. That's why so many people were against the idea of him coming back, he's a waste of a character slot. Now we have another irrelevant garbage character in the cast thanks to furries.
>>317641310
They don't care about the gameplay in Smash, they care about the gameplay in Melee
Sakurai is a shitter but so are the PM devs
>>317641675
literally all he needs is to be like 3x as heavy
>>317641472
I think he's actually alright. I think I'm pretty good with him desu senpai.
Maybe I'm a newfag at this, but why is it changing my words like that? What the fuck is that?
>>317641472
>tfw mewtwo will never be good
Atless Shadow ball is good, right?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnF8iSh9MaI
>>317641773
He would still be trash. If he was 3x as heavy, he's still have laggy moves, shit recovery, frame data that can't compete with anyone above low tier, no true combos, and very little options or mixups.
Only guess what? Now, he'd be combo food to the high tiers thanks to being heavy! Great plan.
>>317641690
>They don't care about the gameplay in Smash, they care about the gameplay in Melee
Because the gameplay in Melee was already good. Sakurai tries too hard to fix what isn't broken
>>317642135
>What is downtilt
>What is UAir
>What is up tilt
Have you fought a mewtwo, he can combo the fuck outta people dude.
>>317641945
Because Hiro is a god
>>317642135
>Mewtwo
>Shit Recovery
>No true combos
He may be a bad character but this isnt even close to true
>>317636105
I'm a mac main and it slightly helped.
After jab jab d-tilt if they shield the d-tilt I am given a chance to predict there next movement usually unless they have braindead framedata like Yoshi, Maro or Luigi.
for example if they shield d-tilt after jab. I usually predict what they do and use quick options like d-smash, jab, Another d-tilt. Grab. Roll or run away.
Luigi mains they they are skilled because whenever they make a mistake effortlessly pressing A or Down B solves all there problems.
>>317641958
Hitboxes in smash are retarded as fuck sometimes and I love it
>>317641945
On halloween Hiro made a word filter for those words
IIRC kek should turn into kek
sjw also turned into Spooky Scary skeletons that day
>>317642270
Keyword is true combo. You can DI out of those. His "true combos" are only 1-2 move combos, and the payoff is very small.
>>317642412
Both of those things are true. Mewtwo has a garbage recovery.
No true combos wasn't meant to be literal. He has a few small combos that do very little damage and would never kill.
>>317642414
Luigi's N-air and Down B are effortlessly get out of jail Free cards. Luigi mains don't have to worry about being punished with bullshit quick options.
>Bowser in shit tier
>Pikachu in Sheik tier
>Robin better than Pits
>Dong is now better than hoo ha
>Luigi not A tier
>>317642539
His Fair can be easily combo'd into, and it kills early as fuck.
His recovery is one of the best in the game, I can literally come back from the bottom corner of the screen, and his side b throws people off while you're in the air. You can't DI out of his Uair, it doesn't knock people back far enough.
>>317641945
>maybe im a newfag at this
yes, your new is DEFINITELY showing
baka senpai
>>317642539
>One of the best jumps
>Vanishes with teleport which you can angle as you need and goes a fair distance
>Can stall and gain better horizontal distance with confusion
Stop
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diKq-5VgQa0
>>317642486
it's was literally that shulk dodged out into the z axis avoiding the hitbox
all smash hitboxes are 3d even if movement is restricted to 2 dimensions
>>317642270
Those moves don't last long like Shiek or Mario tilt attacks, that can go on for years.
Mewtwo can do a few tilt attacks, until (LOL) his tail goes right through their body, and not do any damage, and since Mewtwo attacks very slowly, hes left wide open for Luigi to KO him at 30% easy
>>317642759
>His recovery is one of the best in the game
Fucking hell. Not even going to bother. Mewtwo's SD more than anyone else thanks to that shit warp he has. Half the time it bounces off the side of the stage like an asshole.
Mewtwo's fair does not true combo into itself. I'm not sure why you're saying it does, but it doesn't. Only his dtilt or ftilt can combo into themselves, and only at low percents, and the payoff isn't good.
>>317642486
>IIRC kek should turn into kek
well, no shit.
>>317642897
>Look at what I can do to a non-moving or CPU character
This has already been proven bull shit. Mewtwo can do these moves, but it's not fast enough to really pull them off on higher tier fighters.
>>317643068
I didn't say Far is the combo starter, it's the finisher, which kills early as fuck.
People really SD with Mewtwo as much as you say? I find that hard to believe, his warp really isn't that complex.
>>317643020
Yeah, mewtwo is obviously nowhere near shiek, I don't think I've ever had a tail problem with mewtwo, all of his tail attacks seem to connect for me.
>>317643019
Exactly, which is why I love it so much
IIRC Ness and Lucas both airdodge into the Z-axis as well, making it harder to punish them
>>317641221
>>317641253
If nobody's viewing than nobody will stream.
Do you think KoF lost a slot at EVO because SFIV had more depth?
It's just business.
>>317621120
ESAM is like the only guy to have such a high opinion of Robin. I don't think even Nairo thinks so highly ofher.
Not that I mind, I want more Robins out there, one of the most fun characters in the game. I don't even mind when I lose to a Robin player.
>>317641958
>see everyone in this thread saying Mewtwo is bad
>think their just being butt hurt and suck with Mewtwo
>see this video
That's just sad, and people play this shit game.
I'm no furry, but Mewtwo is one of the most badass looking fighter in the game, too bad he doesn't play as one.
>>317643332
Nothing true combos into fair at kill percents, anon. It can be a mixup, sure, or you could bait an air dodge. But the same goes for any character.
>>317643329
Its demonstrated on CPUs because its a demonstration idiot. He clearly states whats true and isnt and you can see how applicable it is in battle just by watching the video, Up tilt to Up Smash is literally a true kill set up stop shitposting already, high tier characters arent high tier because they are fast, Rosa/Luma and Ness are both higher tier characters that are not fast at all
>>317624401
>Marth is a lot safer than him
Have we played the same fucking character
Because unless he lands his pea-sized tipper pretty much fucking everything he has is unsafe on shield, even moreso with the new shield mechanics
Seriously I see people say this all the fucking time and it drives me up the wall
And while Roy is combo food he also has really good combo game himself unlike Marth who has jab>fair or his really weak throw combos, his Fair sweetspot is also much easier to land than Marth's
The only thing Marth has over Roy is recovery, really the battle for best sword user (after MK) comes down to Roy vs Ike because Marth is shit compared to either of them
>>317643706
Marth has the best nair in the game, there's no reason for him to fair awhile spacing. Roy gets destroyed by Marth, and according to a thread on Smashboards doing some math, Marth actually got more out of the shieldstun patch than Roy did. Roy's non-SS hits are actually less safe on shield than before, and being in SS range is not safe to begin with.
>>317643332
>I find that hard to believe, his warp really isn't that complex.
Mewtwo's Teleport is shit.
>It's slow.
>Mewtwo and still has a hurtbox, even when invisible
>can be grab, when invisible
>Teleport can miss the stage, and end up hovering over the edge, and not grab
>Teleport can bounce off the stage, if it's a box shape stage
>Mewtwo's hurtbox comes out first before you can even see Mewtwo
>Teleport can be Cape'd
In other words, its bad
>>317642759
Mewtwo's recovery doesn't even go near the distance of extended bouncing fish, it does no damage, and it's got a lot of end lag. The distance is not that good, it covers a little over 1/3rd of final destination's stage floor. That's nearing Dr. Mario level of garbage.
>>317621120
The thing that stands out is Diddy being B tier.
Why?
>>317625148
Just do like mario mains and mash up on the c-stick until it hits.
>>317644895
Don't fix what isn't broken
>>317621120
>>317630460
Why is Lucas ranked so poorly? Wasn't he like high B-tier earlier?
>>317627695
ESAM sorta secondaries her and thinks she's not bad for whatever reason.
>>317630809
one of the top 5 players in the world
>>317644895
>Hitbox comes out frame 9
that's comparable to a fucking tilt
why would they do that
>>317632505
Combos, huge range, really good kill power, surprisingly good framedata.
>>317645753
They wanted to make Mario not shit, not fair.
>>317632505
Decent combos
Huge range
If he combos you twice you're suddenly at his 'kill' range where his dash or ridiculously fast Bair will knock you out.
can we all at least agree that ness players are the low lives of smash 4?
>>317646676
All the fair characters in the series are shit.
>>317621120
>Side BBB that low
Wut
>>317640139
What the fuck? When did I say that smash 4 was even better than Melee?
I mean, it objectively is the better game hands down, but holy shit are you an autist
>>317646859
Nope, that title will always go to Sonic players
>>317647052
the original cocksuckers were luigi, sonic, and ness. All were top ten characters.
Sonic and luigi got nerfed, ness got buffed
>>317647052
>He can't fight sonic
Kek
>>317646859
It's a tossup betwee Ness, Rosalina, and Villager mains.
>>317647039
Are you playing as a character with a projectile? If the answer is yes, you've already beaten Side BBB unless you're a shit player
>>317647219
As true as that is, I have never, ever had a fun match against a Sonic. Fighting those fuckers is always such a chore even if they're bad because they keep zooming around like complete faggots
>>317647550
Ness players are more insufferable than Sonic players
At least Sonic players don't just autimatically win when they get the opponent to 120%
>>317646859
>MUH BACKTHROW
Ness has been shit in every Smash game till now, stay mad
>>317639173
Took an apple a day.
>>317648256
Thanks for proving his point with your free as fuck 30% fair string fag
>>317648514
just airdodge;)
>>317648514
try 20%. That's comparable to a couple hits from Sheik, or one hit from someone like Ike or Ganon.
>>317621120
Roy, Greninja, and Lucas all that low
>Ike that high
Holy shit this guy's a moron.
>>317621120
>considers himself 3rd best in the world
>considers pikachu 2nd best in the game
>loses to random players and low tier characters
Esam is one of the most overrated players ever.
>>317624401
Roy is 3 times better than Marth
Being a Lucas main is painful
>tfw I like maining characters that feel good to me
>tfw I main Lucas, Dr Mario and a few others because of this
>tfw I tell myself it's ok but I feel inadequate anyway
>>317648256
except in this game he's fucking cancerous
I still think Marth is better than Roy
>>317643951
Marth's nair isn't the best in the game. Not even close. Shulk's or Cloud's nair is the best. Or Yoshi.
>>317648757
27%
And Ganondorf, Shiek, and Ike don't have 500 kill moves that are both reliable and fast
They also don't win the game if they grab you at 100%
>>317648514
>Free
You do realize you can DI off the Dthrow backwards and avoid it all together at any percent past 20
You do realize you can DI out of it if you do get hit and avoid the second hit
You do realize that your mad at Ness for having a Dthrow combo but your not mad at character who can kill off their Dthrow with super set ups like Shiek, Falcon and DK with his up throw
Your shit at this game, Ness has the most bad matchups of any of the top tier characters is slow and isnt good at approaching, if you dont want to get backthrown dont get grabbed. Robin and DK also kill pretty early with their backthrows but you know so little about this game and just cry about your lack of skill you wouldnt know this
Sheik belongs in her own tier. She has a winning matchup with every character.
>>317649065
How so? If your answer has anything to do with PK Fire or his Backthrow your shit, literally. PK Fire is laggy as hell and punishable as shit any Ness that just spams it at will is shit and getting beat by them mean your even worse.
I'm just glad Megaman is viable and not a piece of shit.
>>317649472
>DI backwards
>Get hit by his Up air which is stronger than launch Diddy's
>Ness faggots think every character weighs as much as jigglypuff
>Ness faggot thinks that just because his character is busted means that it's okay for other characters to be busted
Kek
Stay PK triggered, gaywad
>>317649250
>3 fairs
>7%, 7%, 6% thanks to stale moves/percent fractions
Yes, Ness has an easier time killing than those characters. But being able to link together a couple fairs has nothing to do with that when the damage dealt is perfectly comparable with stuff the rest of the cast can pull.
>>317649054
Lower mid tier is still considered viable in Sm4sh, unlike Brawl and Melee
>>317649250
>Shiek having trouble killing off her throws, and not having reliable kills off bouncing fish fair strings and upair chases
>Ike not having a ton of kill moves that arent fast and reliable
Nah your right, Shiek just wins the game if you get Fair'd off stage and BF at 50% though
You'd only get hit by his upair if you DI'd towards Ness though smart one, which while is strong Dthrow doenst combo off anything at Up air kill percents. DI'ing backwards leaves you safe to anything unless your foe reads your DI and at the most you'll get hit by is one Fair or Nair
Ness is far from busted, please try again
>>317621120
>Ike that high
I haven't followed the scene in a little while, do people really like him that much more with the buffs? He's muh boy and all that, but doesn't he still have issues with most of the other high tier characters? He certainly can't be on the same level as Sanic, with 90% of Sanic's moveset being completely safe and high-priority.
>>317650174
ESAM is just being a fucking retard. Ike is good but he still has some serious problems with projectile users
>>317650174
I fucking hate this anime faggot
He has the range of Shulk, the power of Bowser, and the aerials of Jigglypuff.
Fuck Ike fuck you FUCK IKE FUCK YOU GOD YOU ANIME LOVING DEGENERATE PIECE OF SHIT HE KEEPS GETTING FUCKING BUFFED EVERY PATCH I'M GOING TO FUCKING KILL YOU
>>317635397
>perfect pivot ftilt > perfect pivot utilt > perfect pivot ftilt > nair > rising storm > bouncing fish
When has Zero ever done this?
>>317650174
hes basically charizard with a sword
his aerials have like no landing lag, his fair and bair have like a frame 30 autocancel which means he can just put up a wall of them through shorthop, and like none of them have any significant window for punishment if you miss that, its like 15 frames or some shit, you get punished more often for airdodging
if he was any faster hed be untouchable, as it is he already has pretty crazy runaway matchups with certain characters because they dont have a move that puts out a hitbox early enough oos to punish
>>317624609
>>317624956
>Marth steadily gets better with patches because tippers while Lucina remains shit
It's like they're catering to my Awakening hate!
>>317621120
I'm still disappointed with how shitty Mewtwo is for a DLC character.
>>317648256
God I fucking love doing that shit with Ness.
Posting my half assed tier list.
>peach that high
>higher than diddy
I've played her secondary since Melee and thought she had some hidden potential but really within the top 15? Did she get buffed recently or something cause it always felt like a lot of her good stuff was way too inconsistent for what you got from those options. (i.e. dtilt into fair, the dtilt can be teched and depending on placement/percentage you may not get the fair followup)
>>317653272
ESAM's from Florida. He's crazy
>>317652374
looks like you don't know what a tier list is friend
